Healthy Eating

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

See, the original thing I had agreed along with says...

As far as I see it, that post you agreed with essentially amounted to "grains are bad". I don't see how you've taken that as a recommendation for a moderate intake of them.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Because Grains are filling

As is any food high in fiber (fat does the job pretty well too), and seeing as the only reason I can see for seeking out "filling" foods is to limit total calorie intake, it strikes me as silly to recommend a food group as relatively high in calories as grains, especially when you take into account the amount of micronutrients you get along with those calories. Basically, there's no point on "filling" yourself when what you're doing it with amounts to little more than empty calories.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

and help to complete and compliment proteins. In fact, this explains it.

That link also states combinations of plant foods which produce complete proteins without the inclusion of grains, which IMO would be much more conducive to the health of OP.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

And well, I don't think they mean your run-of-the-mill Sunny D for juice. V8 Fusions Juice, for one, has 2 servings of fruit/vegetables per glass.

Granted, but even the best juices typically are more calorie dense and less nutrient dense than whole fruits and vegetables. An exception does exist there with fortified juices, but why bother with that when you can just take vitamin supplements on their own without a whole lot of sugary water?

Also OP, have you looked into protein supplements? Powdered whey/casein/egg protein can be relatively cheap, and solves the complete protein issue perfectly. In addition, such shakes would make situations like the camps you mentioned easier.

Originally Posted by Rie

Hey there.

Firstly, can we try not to turn this thread into a debate and keep on topic. There's a guide here to healthy eating (click). Can you drink soya milk at all? There's always quarn and other meat alternatives, if you want to eat these.

With all due respect, I don't think this issue is as black and white as "*link to guide thread* /thread". As far as I'm concerned any debate going on here is most definately on topic, namely the topic of how to make OP's diet as healthy as possible.

In addition, I have some issues with the information contained in that link, but there's not a lot I can do to address that given that the thread is a closed sticky, other than give alternative advice in other threads.

[Thirteen]

Frosty, grains are fine in moderation, and I doubt you NEVER eat grains. Some people LIKE the taste of grains, so if they have a pasta dish, a rice dish, or a sandwich, they can make a complete protein by complimenting it with other mix-ins, sauces, toppings, etc.

The V8 Fusions juice I mentioned is, well, mostly just fruit and vegetables, not alot of added anything. Actually, we have, at my house, some juice that IS a puree. Ingredients in a bottle were like, 52 Strawberries, 2 2/3 bananas, and then some Apple Juice to make it a bit thinner, thus drinkable. So I'm sure juices like that are an acceptable source of nutrients.

Plus, protein drink mixes are not really good for you, and DEFINITELY not recommended for teenagers. I know that because my nephew takes protein, and he PLAYS FOOTBALL, he's going to be 16 this year, and he takes like, either 1/2 or 1/4 of the Daily Recommended amount... And as I said, HE PLAYS FOOTBALL (aka "Hand-egg"), so he NEEDS extra proteins.

So please, don't recommend things that really are no good for the average teenager, when there are plenty of HEALTHY substitutes.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Frosty, grains are fine in moderation, and I doubt you NEVER eat grains.

Rarely.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Some people LIKE the taste of grains, so if they have a pasta dish, a rice dish, or a sandwich, they can make a complete protein by complimenting it with other mix-ins, sauces, toppings, etc.

I've acknowleged that fact, but my point stands that there is a huge difference between incorporating grains as a treat because you like them, and using them as the basis of your diet because some vegan food pyramid thinks they are the be all and end all of healthy eating.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Plus, protein drink mixes are not really good for you

Says who? And why not?

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

and DEFINITELY not recommended for teenagers.

Says who? And why not?

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

And as I said, HE PLAYS FOOTBALL (aka "Hand-egg"), so he NEEDS extra proteins.

As does someone consuming a diet naturally low in quality protein.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

So please, don't recommend things that really are no good for the average teenager, when there are plenty of HEALTHY substitutes.

I'm doing no such thing, unless you can provide some compelling evidence why that is the case.

[Kitty.]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Just as long as you do so with the knowledge they aren't that great, and that you're eating them because you enjoy them (presumably), and don't go actively seeking them out because someone told you they're some super health food.

I do enjoy them and they are healthy because they provide me with the necessary fiber that I need.

Originally Posted by Rie

Hey there.

Firstly, can we try not to turn this thread into a debate and keep on topic. There's a guide here to healthy eating (click). Can you drink soya milk at all? There's always quarn and other meat alternatives, if you want to eat these.

Soy milk is not very good. What is quarn?

Originally Posted by Frosty

Also OP, have you looked into protein supplements? Powdered whey/casein/egg protein can be relatively cheap, and solves the complete protein issue perfectly. In addition, such shakes would make situations like the camps you mentioned easier.

Protein shakes and supplements are for people who want to gain lots of muscles and they don't seem very healthy to me. I want something natural.

[Thirteen]

Originally Posted by Frosty

I've acknowleged that fact, but my point stands that there is a huge difference between incorporating grains as a treat because you like them, and using them as the basis of your diet because some vegan food pyramid thinks they are the be all and end all of healthy eating.

Once again, the grains are explained as accompanying some foods for complete proteins.

Originally Posted by Frosty

Says who? And why not?

As I said, my nephew bought some from GNC, to help him build muscle for football. He went by what THEY told him. Professionals, who work with body builders, and sell the product. Oh, and if that's not enough, LINK.

Originally Posted by Frosty

As does someone consuming a diet naturally low in quality protein.

Its not naturally low in protein if you eat properly, thus what food pyramids, along with information online about the Complimentary Foods for a complete Protein, are more natural than going on some supplement intended for people to use as a muscle builder, to bulk up.

Originally Posted by Frosty

I'm doing no such thing, unless you can provide some compelling evidence why that is the case.

See the points above. And frankly, it's getting extremely annoying how hard you're trying to convert people to NOT be Vegetarian just because YOU don't like it.

It's possible to be perfectly healthy without Meat, and I'm trying to help Kitty, the OP, with solutions to remain healthy without meat. You're being counter-productive.

So Kitty, look at the links I've given about Food Pyramids and Complimentary Foods for Proteins, and you should be alright, despite what some pseudo-intellectual, wannabe Nutritionist tries to tell you.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Kitty.

I do enjoy them

Fine, eat them if you feel like a treat then.

Originally Posted by Kitty.

and they are healthy because they provide me with the necessary fiber that I need.

Sure, they provide you with fiber, but that fiber comes with a lot more calories and a lot less micronutrients than many other plant foods, along with all the bad things that come with grains which I mentioned earlier.

Originally Posted by Kitty.

Protein shakes and supplements are for people who want to gain lots of muscles

They're for people who want to include more quality protein into their diet, whatever the reason. The fact that someone who is limited in protein sources by a vegan diet and someone looking to build muscle share this goal is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Kitty.

and they don't seem very healthy to me.

Under what grounds?

Originally Posted by Kitty.

I want something natural.

There's nothing "unnatural" about the proteins in protein supplements.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Once again, the grains are explained as accompanying some foods for complete proteins.

Which even your own links state can be accomplished using different, more nutritious food groups.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

As I said, my nephew bought some from GNC, to help him build muscle for football. He went by what THEY told him. Professionals, who work with body builders, and sell the product.

>Guy working the counter at a GNC
>Professionals, who work with body builders
Lol.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Oh, and if that's not enough, LINK.

And that link would be entirely relevant if I advocated OP take obscene quantities of protein, and nothing else. Unfortunately I didn't.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Its not naturally low in protein if you eat properly, thus what food pyramids, along with information online about the Complimentary Foods for a complete Protein, are more natural than going on some supplement intended for people to use as a muscle builder, to bulk up.

Plant foods generally contain considerably lower levels of protein in relation to other macronutrients than animal foods, regardless of any food combining you do. And there's nothing "unnatural" about the protein in protein supplements.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

See the points above.

See my points above.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

And frankly, it's getting extremely annoying how hard you're trying to convert people to NOT be Vegetarian just because YOU don't like it.

Frankly, it's getting annoying with you continuously strawmanning my position. I'm not trying to "convert her because I don't like it". I was initially suggesting that, unless she has some reason for being vegetarian other than thinking it's bad for you, she should just make it easier on herself and eat meat and animal products. Now that we've established that she doesn't like the taste of animal products, I'm suggesting ways to get around the taste issue whilst still getting the beneficial proteins that come from animal products. What's possibly wrong with that?

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

It's possible to be perfectly healthy without Meat

Yes, but meat is a very good way of boosting how healthy your diet can be, and is an easy way to get many nutrients. But anyway, now that I've established the reason for her not eating mean (taste as opposed to any previously held notions on health) I'm fine with her not eating it, so what's your point?

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

and I'm trying to help Kitty, the OP, with solutions to remain healthy without meat. You're being counter-productive.

How so? My most recent advice has had nothing to do with meat, but is about ways for her to get quality protein whilst avoiding the problems she has with the taste of eggs annd dairy.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

So Kitty, look at the links I've given about Food Pyramids and Complimentary Foods for Proteins, and you should be alright, despite what some pseudo-intellectual, wannabe Nutritionist tries to tell you.

Wow, I love how I can be called a "pseudo-intellectual, wannabe Nutritionist", yet I'm the one who gets PM's from the mods about being insensitive and aggressive in threads on here.

[Kitty.]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Fine, eat them if you feel like a treat then.


Sure, they provide you with fiber, but that fiber comes with a lot more calories and a lot less micronutrients than many other plant foods, along with all the bad things that come with grains which I mentioned earlier.


They're for people who want to include more quality protein into their diet, whatever the reason. The fact that someone who is limited in protein sources by a vegan diet and someone looking to build muscle share this goal is irrelevant.



Under what grounds?



There's nothing "unnatural" about the proteins in protein supplements.

I am not worried about calories at all.
I want protein alternatives that are actually food.
Not pills or powder.

[Thirteen]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Which even your own links state can be accomplished using different, more nutritious food groups.

But grains can still be used, whether they'd be someone else's prime choice or not doesn't mean a thing. You're trying to say they're completely bad for you, which is just untrue. They're good IN MODERATION. Apparently, a term you can't understand.

Originally Posted by Frosty

>Guy working the counter at a GNC
>Professionals, who work with body builders
Lol.

When was the last time YOU tried to apply for a job there? Because when I saw the job ad, it said you had to have some nutritional experience and some bodybuilding experience (not in those exact words, the ad was MONTHS ago) in order to work behind the counter. Thats a slight amount of professionalism, though I don't know about your GNCs in the US.

Originally Posted by Frosty

And that link would be entirely relevant if I advocated OP take obscene quantities of protein, and nothing else. Unfortunately I didn't.

But, as I said (which you're not understanding!), the levels of these things are MUCH different for teenagers, thus its easier for a teenager to accidentally take obscene amounts.

Originally Posted by Frosty

Plant foods generally contain considerably lower levels of protein in relation to other macronutrients than animal foods, regardless of any food combining you do. And there's nothing "unnatural" about the protein in protein supplements.

Really? If I'm not mistaken, Powdered Egg Protein isn't something found in nature. In fact, LINK, to the particular citation where consumer reports say that the excessive protein and heavy metals found in Protein Powders are unnecessary. Plus, most Protein has flavour additives, to make it taste like Fruit Punch, or Cookies N Cream Milkshake, which is unnatural.

Originally Posted by Frosty

Frankly, it's getting annoying with you continuously strawmanning my position. I'm not trying to "convert her because I don't like it". I was initially suggesting that, unless she has some reason for being vegetarian other than thinking it's bad for you, she should just make it easier on herself and eat meat and animal products. Now that we've established that she doesn't like the taste of animal products, I'm suggesting ways to get around the taste issue whilst still getting the beneficial proteins that come from animal products. What's possibly wrong with that?

Lets see, some people CAN'T eat meat, some people don't like the taste of meat, some people have Animal Rights reasons to not eat meat. Trying to tell people that eating meat is the prime way to be healthy is ridiculous!

Originally Posted by Frosty

How so? My most recent advice has had nothing to do with meat, but is about ways for her to get quality protein whilst avoiding the problems she has with the taste of eggs annd dairy.

You shouldn't have repeatedly questioned her as to why she doesn't want to eat meat anyways. I know, you wanted to make sure she didn't think of it as a "fad diet", but even after she said she didn't like the taste, you still pestered her about how she should "find a different way to eat it". No, if she doesn't like it, you could've dropped it at that. You CHOSE not to so you could try to continue shoving your opinion down her throat.

Originally Posted by Frosty

Wow, I love how I can be called a "pseudo-intellectual, wannabe Nutritionist", yet I'm the one who gets PM's from the mods about being insensitive and aggressive in threads on here.

Let's see... Let's dissect this for a moment.
Pseudo-Intellectual: Since you're pretty much trying to be more intellectual than you really are by dissecting sources with no justification for such (especially since, as said before, you never present your own, so sources that may not be perfect are better than NO sources). Makes sense.
Wannabe Nutritionist: Since you've been trying to preach to others about nutrition, without actually knowing what you're talking about. You initially claimed you COULDN'T get complete protein at all unless you ate meat, then when you were proven wrong, you went back on it. You act as if you know everything about Nutrition, when you're really just a typical teenager.

My family doctor asked me for information about my diet, and various other questions to make sure I was getting the nutrition I need, and she didn't feel a need to correct me on anything, or send me to a Nutritionist, despite me being on a Vegan diet, so obviously it's entirely possible, and not too complicated, to eat properly.

So, since what I've stated is true, it's kind of hard to take it as an offensive statement. However, the things that MAKE such statement true, like your bigoted views, and you expecting everyone else to justify themselves without expecting yourself to, would be legitimate reasons for the Moderators to correct your behaviour.

You've intentionally jumped down the throats (figuratively, of course) of anyone who doesn't eat meat, trying to preach your dietary views as the Ultimate, when they really aren't.

So basically, I'd suggest you think before you type, and actually KNOW what you're talking about, AND be prepared to back it.

[darkinnocenteyes]

A good source of protein for vegetarians are lentils, any starchy beans like lima beans and kidney beans ect are good as side dishes in your diet although they are not complete protiens, they are also high in favanoids, which are good for you.... and nuts, specially almonds and walnuts, peanuts and peanutbutter is good too, but it has less nutritional value than the latter, but peanut butter tastes good so yay... i eat mine on apples Flax would benifit you too i believe... Hummus and pita is a good example of a complete protein which is prolly a better choice than the peanut butter but if your not too picky or you cant get your hands on it i'm sure it would due... ummm I'm sorry about all the debating on your thread... I too believe that eating meat is a good thing... but obveously I respect your choice. And I know you said that soy milk doesnt taste very good, but I get Silk in vanilla and chocolate and I love that stuff. I put it on my kashi cerial sometimes... hehe and make fruit smoothies with it...

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Kitty.

I am not worried about calories at all.

Well ultimately your diet is going to be limited by calories if you want to maintain the weight you are at (i.e. a surplus will make you gain weight, a deficit will make you lose weight), so why not, given this constraint, seek out the most nutritious foods you can fit into that restraint?

Originally Posted by Kitty.

I want protein alternatives that are actually food.
Not pills or powder.

Why? Not to mention protein supplements can be added to other foods to up their protein content.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

But grains can still be used, whether they'd be someone else's prime choice or not doesn't mean a thing. You're trying to say they're completely bad for you, which is just untrue. They're good IN MODERATION. Apparently, a term you can't understand.

I understand the term moderation just fine, but I've yet to see a compelling reason why the consumption of grains is a good thing even in moderation, issues like convienence, taste, social situation etc. aside.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

When was the last time YOU tried to apply for a job there? Because when I saw the job ad, it said you had to have some nutritional experience and some bodybuilding experience (not in those exact words, the ad was MONTHS ago) in order to work behind the counter. Thats a slight amount of professionalism, though I don't know about your GNCs in the US.

"Some bodybuilding experience" could mean screwing around in the gym a few times a week with your mates and wondering why your fully sick awesome gym program of curls and pec flies isn't giving you any gains. And I'm sure, assuming there weren't any more specific requirements like certifications, the "nutritional experience" is probably just as questionable.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

But, as I said (which you're not understanding!), the levels of these things are MUCH different for teenagers, thus its easier for a teenager to accidentally take obscene amounts.

What? Assuming similar levels of physical activity, a teenager needs, if anything, more protein than an adult thanks to the fact they are still growing.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

In fact, LINK, to the particular citation where consumer reports say that the excessive protein and heavy metals found in Protein Powders are unnecessary.

A link containing the title of a report and no link to said report? Well I'm convinced.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Plus, most Protein has flavour additives, to make it taste like Fruit Punch, or Cookies N Cream Milkshake, which is unnatural.

And plenty doesn't, so OP should try to find unflavoured protein.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Lets see, some people CAN'T eat meat

And unless they are one of those people, that's irrelevant.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

some people don't like the taste of meat, some people have Animal Rights reasons to not eat meat. Trying to tell people that eating meat is the prime way to be healthy is ridiculous!

Some people don't like the taste of anything other than fast food, some people have social and convienience reasons to not eat anything other than fast food. Trying to tell people that not eating fast food is the prime way to be healthy is ridiculous!

Incase you didn't grasp what I'm getting at, my point is that "the prime way to be healthy" doesn't change just because some people have taste or moral/social based reasons against eating that way, so what you've said is just as much a non sequitur as what I just wrote about fast food.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

You shouldn't have repeatedly questioned her as to why she doesn't want to eat meat anyways.

And she shouldn't have rudely ignored me when I asked a simple question in the first place, but whatever, that's all cleared up now.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

I know, you wanted to make sure she didn't think of it as a "fad diet", but even after she said she didn't like the taste, you still pestered her about how she should "find a different way to eat it". No, if she doesn't like it, you could've dropped it at that. You CHOSE not to so you could try to continue shoving your opinion down her throat.

What's wrong with trying to help someone find ways around the fact they don't like the taste of a nutritious food group? I'm sure if someone came on here complaining that all they can stomach is fast food and that they hate the taste of vegetables, you'd be more than willing to help them with making vegetables taste good.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Pseudo-Intellectual: Since you're pretty much trying to be more intellectual than you really are by dissecting sources with no justification for such (especially since, as said before, you never present your own, so sources that may not be perfect are better than NO sources). Makes sense.

What have I done with your sources other than oppose them based on simple facts about the nutritional content of grains? Are you denying the claims I made about the nutritional content of grains? What would you like me to source for you now?

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Wannabe Nutritionist: Since you've been trying to preach to others about nutrition, without actually knowing what you're talking about.

Rich, considering you've done just as much preaching, only I've been able to refute what you've been saying. So who's really the wannnabe here?

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

You initially claimed you COULDN'T get complete protein at all unless you ate meat, then when you were proven wrong, you went back on it.

What did I go back on? I don't think I ever made any assertions that combining proteins didn't exist. Indeed, that issue wasn't even raised until you brought it up, and now decided it to refute claims I made in an entirely different context.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

You act as if you know everything about Nutrition, when you're really just a typical teenager.

Now you're making an ad hominem against my age? Really classy debating skills you got there.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

My family doctor asked me for information about my diet, and various other questions to make sure I was getting the nutrition I need, and she didn't feel a need to correct me on anything, or send me to a Nutritionist, despite me being on a Vegan diet, so obviously it's entirely possible, and not too complicated, to eat properly.

From what I've heard, doctors actually get surprisingly little nutrition education, and much of what they do get is industry-funded, though of course big agriculture would have no incentives to preach "EAT MORE OF THE UNHEALTHY, SUBSIDISED GRAINS WE PRODUCE", would they? Not to mention the industry influence on the government food pyramids they undoubtedly have to advocate.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

However, the things that MAKE such statement true, like your bigoted views, and you expecting everyone else to justify themselves without expecting yourself to, would be legitimate reasons for the Moderators to correct your behaviour.

Oh. Sorry. I wasn't aware that holding a differing viewpoint on here was considered "bigoted" and against the rules. My bad. Not to mention, the issues the moderators had with me had nothing to do with the factual basis of anything I've said, but with the tone I presented it in.

[Thirteen]

Originally Posted by Frosty

I understand the term moderation just fine, but I've yet to see a compelling reason why the consumption of grains is a good thing even in moderation, issues like convienence, taste, social situation etc. aside.

Because, ALONG WITH TASTE, they can also complete a protein, AS EXPLAINED. *face-palm*

Originally Posted by Frosty

"Some bodybuilding experience" could mean screwing around in the gym a few times a week with your mates and wondering why your fully sick awesome gym program of curls and pec flies isn't giving you any gains. And I'm sure, assuming there weren't any more specific requirements like certifications, the "nutritional experience" is probably just as questionable.

And yet, they would STILL know more than someone who has NO experience with using supplements and the gym. So, LESS questionable.

Originally Posted by Frosty

What? Assuming similar levels of physical activity, a teenager needs, if anything, more protein than an adult thanks to the fact they are still growing.

Considering factors like body weight, and the fact that she's not intending to build muscle (unlike the bigger adults that use protein powders normally), those are pretty good reasons in themselves. And not to mention the additives in those things, when protein, follow me here, can be obtained naturally.

Originally Posted by Frosty

A link containing the title of a report and no link to said report? Well I'm convinced.

Oh, the nothingness you've presented for any points you've made about ANY other dietary preferences besides your own? Oh, I'm so convinced, I'll grab a steak right now!

Originally Posted by Frosty

Some people don't like the taste of anything other than fast food, some people have social and convienience reasons to not eat anything other than fast food. Trying to tell people that not eating fast food is the prime way to be healthy is ridiculous!

Realize there is a difference between only eating fast food, which is loaded with additives, fats, MSG, etc., and a Vegetarian/Vegan diet. You don't get a complete balanced diet from a fast food place (and you definitely go WAY over the fats and oils ANYONE should eat), but you can get a complete balanced diet without meat or supplements. Bad example.

Originally Posted by Frosty

Incase you didn't grasp what I'm getting at, my point is that "the prime way to be healthy" doesn't change just because some people have taste or moral/social based reasons against eating that way, so what you've said is just as much a non sequitur as what I just wrote about fast food.

The prime way to be healthy is by getting proper nutrients, decent levels of physical activity (like, AT LEAST walking for half an hour a day), and drinking plenty of water. Meat and Protein Powders aren't needed for such. Point null.

Originally Posted by Frosty

What's wrong with trying to help someone find ways around the fact they don't like the taste of a nutritious food group? I'm sure if someone came on here complaining that all they can stomach is fast food and that they hate the taste of vegetables, you'd be more than willing to help them with making vegetables taste good.

Covered above, the huge difference between scenarios.

Originally Posted by Frosty

What have I done with your sources other than oppose them based on simple facts about the nutritional content of grains? Are you denying the claims I made about the nutritional content of grains? What would you like me to source for you now?

No, you always complain and nit-pick at sources without justifying anything yourself. There are healthy things found in grains, and they do compliment other foods, as has been repeated to you. Maybe if someone wrote it across a burger, you'd understand?

Originally Posted by Frosty

Rich, considering you've done just as much preaching, only I've been able to refute what you've been saying. So who's really the wannnabe here?

Really? So, I've been trying to tell the OP that she can't eat healthy without Meat or Supplements when that is simply untrue? I don't think so. I've been helping her find various ways to get various nutrients, WITHOUT buying expensive powdered eggs or making her eat meat. You haven't been able to refute with what I've been saying. Your idea of an argument is basically "LOL UR WRONG BCUZ I M DA BEST!", without any actual evidence. I've linked various sources, mentioned experiences personally and from people I know, which isn't perfect, but its A LOT more than you've done. So, until you can completely disprove everything I've said with legitimate evidence, telling me I'm wrong is making you look more and more like a fool. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Originally Posted by Frosty

What did I go back on? I don't think I ever made any assertions that combining proteins didn't exist. Indeed, that issue wasn't even raised until you brought it up, and now decided it to refute claims I made in an entirely different context.

No. What you said was "Animal proteins generally contain all the amino acids the human body needs. Non-animal sources are generally deficient in one or more amino acids." which has been proven to not be the case. OH NO, she'd have to add some veggies to a bowl of rice for a complete protein. Such a HUGE issue for a vegetarian. *facepalm*

Originally Posted by Frosty

Now you're making an ad hominem against my age? Really classy debating skills you got there.

Hate to break it to you, but yes, age has some relevance. Means you've, most likely, seen less, gone through less, have less life experience, really. I don't mean you're stupid because of your age.

Tell me, how many nephews/nieces/cousins do you have? Their ages? How many of your friends have graduated college or university? How many friends of yours have had kids? How many times have you had to go to the doctor? How many people have you met? These are all things that happen during your life.

And well, I may only be 3 years older, but thats 3 years more of friends going to school, of family members being born, of regular check-ups, etc.

Originally Posted by Frosty

From what I've heard, doctors actually get surprisingly little nutrition education, and much of what they do get is industry-funded, though of course big agriculture would have no incentives to preach "EAT MORE OF THE UNHEALTHY, SUBSIDISED GRAINS WE PRODUCE", would they? Not to mention the industry influence on the government food pyramids they undoubtedly have to advocate.

And yet, doctors who have been around for 30 years, have kids, grandkids, and possibly great grandkids, have seen many patients, have medical degrees, have seen various issues in their times... Safe to say they know more about nutrition than you do.

Hypocritical, don't you think? Saying the Agriculture industry is trying to force people into eating grains. You don't think the Meat and Dairy industries would do the same? Seriously?! When I mentioned making a Vegan recipe on my Facebook status, I had one girl I barely know (friend of a friend) try to tell me that because her uncle has a farm with Organic Meat and Dairy, I should eat their stuff to avoid getting sick, without her comprehending that I have a legitimate MEDICAL ISSUE.

So saying the Agricultural farmers try to shove their product is ridiculous. EVERY industry tries to push their product, thats just how it is! Advertisements for Dairy dominate around here, with Meat taking a close 2nd. Local produce, Veggies and Fruits are sometimes advertised, and I've NEVER seen an advertisement actually trying to FORCE grains. Most I've seen is ads for Uncle Ben's Rice and Ital Pasta.

Speaking of Food Pyramids forcing food groups, they're always forcing lots of Dairy. And yet, humans are THE ONLY species that consumes milk beyond infancy. It's extremely unnatural. But it's still pushed like crazy.

Originally Posted by Frosty

Oh. Sorry. I wasn't aware that holding a differing viewpoint on here was considered "bigoted" and against the rules.

Well a Bigot is, by meaning, someone who sticks by their views, no matter what, even if they're wrong, really. Someone who will belittle other people's views, even if its unjustified. So, pretty much how you act towards Vegetarians/Vegans, despite the fact you're wrong about their lack of nutrition and such.
In fact, I'll show you MORE evidence, so you don't act like I'm fabricating the meaning. Bigotry.

You seem to have this idea that I'm fabricating everything, and yet I have plenty of justification. You have NO justification for what you're saying.

Seriously, hate to break it to you, but just because people in high school had this convoluted idea that you knew what you were talking about, just because you'd probably yell it very loud, or just repeat yourself... Doesn't mean everyone will think the same way.

I bet if this conversation were going on in person, you'd be screaming and jumping like a rabid monkey, or braying like a jackass, to avoid the inevitable end of discussion, where you're blatantly proven wrong.

The more you scream out obscenities, or continue repeating yourself, the more likely the other party will give up, right? Just because someone wants you to shut up, does NOT mean you "win".

Now thats childish.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Because, ALONG WITH TASTE, they can also complete a protein, AS EXPLAINED. *face-palm*

You keep repeating that, and I keep repeating the fact that other foods can do the same thing, without providing so many empty carbs, such little micronutrients, and all the bad things like phytates, gluten, lectins etc.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

And yet, they would STILL know more than someone who has NO experience with using supplements and the gym. So, LESS questionable.

Not necessarily. Not to mention I'm fairly certain I would have more experience in areas like that than you, so unless you want to reject your claim that this makes their claims automatically valid, you've sort of conceeded the point to me anyway.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Considering factors like body weight, and the fact that she's not intending to build muscle (unlike the bigger adults that use protein powders normally), those are pretty good reasons in themselves.

Bodyweight? Maybe if we were discussion preteens or very young teenagers, but there's not really a huge difference between the weight of your average mid to late teenager and your average adult, particularly when you take into account the fact your average adult probably has more fat mass, which does little to nothing in regards to protein requirements as does lean mass. And like I've said, their growing bodies require more protein for any given body weight due to their growth. Ultimately it boils down to the fact that a teenager is not going to overdose on protein or whatever the hell you think is going to happen simply because they have a powder.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

And not to mention the additives in those things, when protein, follow me here, can be obtained naturally.

Additive free supplements can also be found.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Oh, the nothingness you've presented for any points you've made about ANY other dietary preferences besides your own? Oh, I'm so convinced, I'll grab a steak right now!

I've already asked you this, but what claims do you want me to substantiate? As far as I can see all I've stated amounts to the fact that animal products make it easy to get certain nutrients, and that grains are high in empty carbs and contain things that are bad for the body like gluten, phytates and lectins. None of which is exactly an outrageous claim that makes my argument useless without citing every sentance I type.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Realize there is a difference between only eating fast food, which is loaded with additives, fats, MSG, etc., and a Vegetarian/Vegan diet. You don't get a complete balanced diet from a fast food place (and you definitely go WAY over the fats and oils ANYONE should eat), but you can get a complete balanced diet without meat or supplements. Bad example.


The prime way to be healthy is by getting proper nutrients, decent levels of physical activity (like, AT LEAST walking for half an hour a day), and drinking plenty of water. Meat and Protein Powders aren't needed for such. Point null.

It's not a bad example because I'm talking about the ideal scenario, which is never going to be reached by the unnecessary ommision of a nutritious food group. The fact a healthy vegetarian diet is better than an all fast food diet doesn't change what I'm trying to get accross.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

No, you always complain and nit-pick at sources without justifying anything yourself. There are healthy things found in grains, and they do compliment other foods, as has been repeated to you. Maybe if someone wrote it across a burger, you'd understand?

Well what do I need to write on for you to actually address my issue of what I'm saying that you find so outrageous you need a citation for it?

And what healthy things? Levels of micronutrients diluted by far more empty carbs and calories than in other sources?

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Really? So, I've been trying to tell the OP that she can't eat healthy without Meat or Supplements when that is simply untrue?

Right, take a correct claim that you've made and that I've not tried to deny, and extrapolate from this that everything you've said is correct.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

WITHOUT buying expensive powdered eggs

Protein supplements are often of comparable price to other sources of protein on a per grams of protein measure.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

or making her eat meat.

You didn't address my question of whether you would try to help someone make vegetables taste acceptable, and if so, why you're jumping down my throat for suggesting OP find ways to make animal products taste acceptable. I think someone's bias as a vegatarian is showing here, regardless of you claims to be some completely impartial authority on this subject and me to be the big evil meat eater trying to force my ways on everyone else.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

You haven't been able to refute with what I've been saying. Your idea of an argument is basically "LOL UR WRONG BCUZ I M DA BEST!", without any actual evidence. I've linked various sources, mentioned experiences personally and from people I know, which isn't perfect, but its A LOT more than you've done. So, until you can completely disprove everything I've said with legitimate evidence, telling me I'm wrong is making you look more and more like a fool. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Well I've already asked you for what claims of mine you find so dubious as to require citations, but you seem to be refusing to address it.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

No. What you said was "Animal proteins generally contain all the amino acids the human body needs. Non-animal sources are generally deficient in one or more amino acids." which has been proven to not be the case. OH NO, she'd have to add some veggies to a bowl of rice for a complete protein. Such a HUGE issue for a vegetarian. *facepalm*

I think it's obvious to anyone other than a debator trying to twist the words of an opponent to make themselves look better that the original quote was in reference to individual sources of plant foods.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Hate to break it to you, but yes, age has some relevance. Means you've, most likely, seen less, gone through less, have less life experience, really. I don't mean you're stupid because of your age.

Tell me, how many nephews/nieces/cousins do you have? Their ages? How many of your friends have graduated college or university? How many friends of yours have had kids? How many times have you had to go to the doctor? How many people have you met? These are all things that happen during your life.

And well, I may only be 3 years older, but thats 3 years more of friends going to school, of family members being born, of regular check-ups, etc.



And yet, doctors who have been around for 30 years, have kids, grandkids, and possibly great grandkids, have seen many patients, have medical degrees, have seen various issues in their times... Safe to say they know more about nutrition than you do.

Sorry, I guess I'll just have to wait for some relatives to pop out kids before my nutritional knowledge is up to facing you then.

Did you even think before you posted that how ridiculous a non-sequitur it is to claim "I know more people who've had kids, therefore I know more about nutrition than you"?

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Hypocritical, don't you think? Saying the Agriculture industry is trying to force people into eating grains. You don't think the Meat and Dairy industries would do the same? Seriously?! When I mentioned making a Vegan recipe on my Facebook status, I had one girl I barely know (friend of a friend) try to tell me that because her uncle has a farm with Organic Meat and Dairy, I should eat their stuff to avoid getting sick, without her comprehending that I have a legitimate MEDICAL ISSUE.

So saying the Agricultural farmers try to shove their product is ridiculous. EVERY industry tries to push their product, thats just how it is! Advertisements for Dairy dominate around here, with Meat taking a close 2nd. Local produce, Veggies and Fruits are sometimes advertised, and I've NEVER seen an advertisement actually trying to FORCE grains. Most I've seen is ads for Uncle Ben's Rice and Ital Pasta.

Corn alone is comparable to the output of meat and dairy, and considering the levels of subsidies going towards grains, particularly corn, I'd say it's pretty clear that they're doing a much better job of getting in with the government and spreading propoganda that their products are healthy.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Speaking of Food Pyramids forcing food groups, they're always forcing lots of Dairy. And yet, humans are THE ONLY species that consumes milk beyond infancy. It's extremely unnatural. But it's still pushed like crazy.

I'm seeing a whole lot more grain servings than dairy recommended by the food pyramid. Not sure what you're seeing.

Not to mention:
1. There's a whole lot else humans do to their food that other animals don't.
2. The existance of lactose tolerance in many individuals extending into adulthood is a sign humans have evolved somewhat to the consumption of dairy.

Originally Posted by ☣ ArcAngel ☣

Seriously, hate to break it to you, but just because people in high school had this convoluted idea that you knew what you were talking about, just because you'd probably yell it very loud, or just repeat yourself... Doesn't mean everyone will think the same way.

I bet if this conversation were going on in person, you'd be screaming and jumping like a rabid monkey, or braying like a jackass, to avoid the inevitable end of discussion, where you're blatantly proven wrong.

The more you scream out obscenities, or continue repeating yourself, the more likely the other party will give up, right? Just because someone wants you to shut up, does NOT mean you "win".

Now thats childish.

Am I allowed to make up inane hypotheticals to prove someone's a poor debator, or is that just reserved for you?

[Kitty.]

Originally Posted by darkinnocenteyes

A good source of protein for vegetarians are lentils, any starchy beans like lima beans and kidney beans ect are good as side dishes in your diet although they are not complete protiens, they are also high in favanoids, which are good for you.... and nuts, specially almonds and walnuts, peanuts and peanutbutter is good too, but it has less nutritional value than the latter, but peanut butter tastes good so yay... i eat mine on apples Flax would benifit you too i believe... Hummus and pita is a good example of a complete protein which is prolly a better choice than the peanut butter but if your not too picky or you cant get your hands on it i'm sure it would due... ummm I'm sorry about all the debating on your thread... I too believe that eating meat is a good thing... but obveously I respect your choice. And I know you said that soy milk doesnt taste very good, but I get Silk in vanilla and chocolate and I love that stuff. I put it on my kashi cerial sometimes... hehe and make fruit smoothies with it...

Thank you sooooo much. I really appreciate it.

[Bibliophile]

I'm going ahead and closing this thread. If the OP wants it reopening go ahead and PM me.