TeenHelp
Support Forums Today's Posts

Get Advice Connect with TeenHelp Resources
HelpLINK Facebook     Twitter     Tumblr     Instagram    Hotlines    Safety Zone    Alternatives

You are not registered or have not logged in

Hello guest! (Not a guest? Log in above!)

As a guest on TeenHelp you are only able to use some of our site's features. By registering an account you will be able to enjoy unlimited access to our site, and will be able to:

  • Connect with thousands of teenagers worldwide by actively taking part in our Support Forums and Chat Room.
  • Find others with similar interests in our Social Groups.
  • Express yourself through our Blogs, Picture Albums and User Profiles.
  • And much much more!

Signing up is free, anonymous and will only take a few moments, so click here to register now!


Education and Careers Work of any kind can get stressful at times. Ask in this forum if you need help with coursework, applications, and more.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  (#1 (permalink)) Old
Grizabella Offline
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
Grizabella's Avatar
 
Name: Jessica
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Location: Vancouver

Posts: 1,305
Join Date: January 8th 2009

Logical and grammatical subjects? (French) - September 13th 2009, 01:12 AM

In French right now, we're learning different parts of speech, and how sentences are constructed. Things like predicates, subjects, direct object complements, etc. Most of the functions are explained pretty well, but I'm having a difficult time grasping the difference beween a grammatical subject and a logical subject. My sheet says:

Sujet: Le prédicat est dit du sujet. Le sujet commande la personne du verbe, c’est par ce trait qu’on l’identifie. Ce peut être un nom déterminé, un pronom, un infinitif, une proposition. Le sujet est souvent l’agent du verbe, l’être ou la chose qui fait l’action, mais pas toujours.

Which at first seemed pretty straight forward, but the next one is the logical subjects, and I'm not understanding the difference...

Sujet réel/logique : Ce complément désigne l’agent d’un verbe impersonnel mais il n’en est pas le sujet grammatical (‘réel’ veut dire dans la réalité, en dehors de la grammaire); ce peut être un nom déterminé, un pronom, un infinitif, une proposition. Sauf avec ‘falloir’, ‘y avoir’ et ‘s’agir’, toujours impersonnels, le sujet logique se reconnaît à ce qu’il peut devenir sujet grammatical du même verbe sans changement de sens ni de voix.

I looked it up in English, and what I found was that a grammatical subject is 'a subject in the usual sense, as opposed to a logical or psychological subect, eg "I was delayed by fog" has 'I' as the subject.' For logical subjects, it says 'an element seen as a subject in that, like the subject in many basic transitive constructions, it identifies who or what is responsible for an action or process.' But it doesn't have an example with it. So, the logical subject is whatever's causing the action? Could anyone help clarify this?


Not around so much now that school's started

"Live a good life.
If there are gods and they are just,
then they will not care how devout you have been,
but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by.
If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them.
If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life
that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
Marcus Aurelius
   
  (#2 (permalink)) Old
Alvin719 Offline
Member
Not a n00b
**
 
Alvin719's Avatar
 
Age: 24
Gender: Male

Posts: 61
Join Date: June 25th 2009

Re: Logical and grammatical subjects? (French) - September 15th 2009, 11:19 PM

ummm, I would like to help but I'm only in French 2
   
  (#3 (permalink)) Old
SillyEvee Offline
Member
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
SillyEvee's Avatar
 
Name: EV
Age: 27
Gender: None
Location: Now

Posts: 511
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: January 5th 2009

Re: Logical and grammatical subjects? (French) - September 16th 2009, 02:15 AM

The grammatical subject is the part of the sentence that the verb "belongs to", if you will. You conjugate the verb according to the grammatical subject. But in some sentences, the structure is such that the verb is impersonal. In those cases, there is a "real" or "logical" subject, which is the entity that is actually "doing" the verb, in real life. In most cases, the grammatical and logical subjects are the same.

Georges vend du pain.

Georges is the grammatical subject, in that "vendre" is conjugated in his person, and he's ALSO the real subject, in that he's the one selling the bread. But in the sentence

Le pain s'est bien vendu.

Le pain is the grammatical subject, but it's not the one actually DOING the selling. The one doing the selling in real life (presumably Georges) is the sujet reel/logique. I'm pretty sure you find it mostly, if not only, in sentences in which the main verbe is a verbe d'état.

This website has been really useful for me in the past, as well as Bescherelle.com

One last note: what your sheet labels as simply "le sujet" is often called "le sujet du verbe" to avoid confusion with le sujet reel. Just in case you run across it.

Hope I wasn't too late to help.


--EV--
Congrats Canada's Juniors! 5 in a row!
Last Sunday morning, the sunshine felt like rain.
Week before, they all seemed the same.
And oh, I ain't wastin' time no more
Cause time goes by like hurricanes, and faster things.
--The Allman Brothers Band


Things seem impossible until you start to do them.

PM me anytime. I love to talk. :]
   
  (#4 (permalink)) Old
Grizabella Offline
Member
I've been here a while
********
 
Grizabella's Avatar
 
Name: Jessica
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Location: Vancouver

Posts: 1,305
Join Date: January 8th 2009

Re: Logical and grammatical subjects? (French) - September 16th 2009, 04:34 PM

Thanks EV, that definitely helped I was going to ask my prof in lecture on Monday, but he for some reason started the lecture half an hour early, during which time I had a different class, so once I arrived he had already gone through the grammatical/logical subjects. He had to rush out at the end to go to a meeting, so I couldn't ask him.


Not around so much now that school's started

"Live a good life.
If there are gods and they are just,
then they will not care how devout you have been,
but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by.
If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them.
If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life
that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
Marcus Aurelius
   
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
french, grammatical, logical, subjects

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All material copyright ©1998-2019, TeenHelp.
Terms | Legal | Privacy | Conduct | Complaints

Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000-2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search engine optimization by vBSEO.
Theme developed in association with vBStyles.