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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Some people are just a lost cause - April 25th 2012, 09:44 PM

I think adults should be held responsible for their actions and choices. Is that so unreasonable? Things have become such, that the people who actually work, do a good job, and look after themselves, have some sort of fucking obligation now to look after those who don't (via taxes). I understand you might do that for a friend, a family member, where you can personally overlook what is going on and help them, but not for complete strangers where you don't have a clue what precisely is going on.

If one individual who I have never met and don't know, chooses to eat themselves to death, I don't care anymore. I don't care enough. Of course it's a shame, things could have turned out better I'm sure, but why should my money go towards fixing such problems. I'm sick of things going in that direction. In many cases, the consequences of being a sloth are nulled by this over-done human rights bullshit, and sometimes it is even rewarded.

I support helping people to help themselves, and pointing them in the right direction. I don't support carrying their weight for them. People are using this bullshit excuse of being in a recession for being lazy, or any excuse they can get their hands on.

Some people just have to be left behind. Like the title suggests, some people are just a lost cause. It's down to their family and friends to help them how they feel is appropriate. But where others (such as myself) are concerned, here's the routine. Give them a chance. If they throw it away and/or spit on it, then FUCK them. Don't reward them for it, don't pity them for it. Come back in a few years and see if they've changed their minds. If not, fuck them again. And this time they're on their own. If they want to improve things for themselves, they have to take the initiative themselves next time.

And that way, people can actually GET ON with things constructively. Instead of wasting time on certain assholes who don't give a shit anyway.


If you've got some spare time, read this:

http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/f40-s...-d/#post631229

But don't if you're easily triggered. If you're not easily triggered then go ahead.



Last edited by BDF; April 25th 2012 at 10:57 PM.
   
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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 26th 2012, 02:28 AM

You know what, yes. Sometimes welfare and these other programs can be good, but at the same time some people still abuse the system. I know that the people across the street don't go to work and their children don't get a proper education, but yet they sit on welfare and do drugs. Not everyone's like that, of course, but I have heard so many stories about people abusing the system and holding out their hands like they expect everyone else to carry their weight. I agree with what you said. Give them a chance but if they blow it, it's their own fault.


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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 26th 2012, 02:45 AM

For the most part, I agree with you.
I think for things like benefits and government financial help, there should be stringent testing for people applying and that regular drug tests should be carried out.
(However in a country where more than half the population has at some point tried marijuana, I think it would be fair to warn when drug tests are so that those whose use is only occasional can be clean for them.)

For example, in NZ, we have the unemployment benefit. A lot of people finish school, and go straight to applying for it - instead of looking for entry-level jobs or further education.

And there's one small part I disagree with - because mentally ill people often do their very best to make the most of a situation and those things offered them, but sometimes still find themselves unable to handle the pressures of work or study. I think those with a valid psychiatric diagnosis should not be given the same ultimatum. Yes, they should still have to meet certain criteria in order to qualify for financial help, but they shouldn't be left with nothing if an attempt at work or study falls through.

And yeah, that's my two cents. Yes, people abusing the system should be left to their own devices. People unwilling to make changes, same thing.
Those trying really hard to make the best of a bad situation - not so much.

(This thread brings to mind that horrible TV show about the Chawner family - a group of people who definitely should not be receiving benefits any more as they are all capable of working.)
   
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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 26th 2012, 02:48 AM

Yeah, with the psychiatric thing, this is a different case. I think what we're talking about (correct me if I'm wrong, BDF) are people who are fully capable of finding work or study, not those that have legitimate reasons to have government aid, such as those with a valid psychiatric diagnosis.


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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 26th 2012, 03:46 AM

Yes yes yes! I totally get where you are coming from and support you 100%. Why do we award the lazy and unmotivated people with money.
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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 26th 2012, 05:06 AM

Oh yeah, for people who don't have legitimate reasons not to do stuff, then I fully support the idea of cutting them off financially.
You gotta keep records of if they're trying though - my elder brother just got hired for a full-time job (last week) after a year and a half on unemployment. (He had been studying prior to that and has tertiary level qualifications.)

   
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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 26th 2012, 06:29 AM

Oh here we go, someone else blaming the 'Dole scoungers' for sucking the money dry. The entities that are really robbing you are the Corperations and Goverment, how much do you think the Parasitic 'Royal' family scrounge on? Or how much in taxes a company like phones4u ows becouse they have offshore bank acounts?
   
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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 26th 2012, 07:29 AM

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Originally Posted by The Goblins Blade View Post
Oh here we go, someone else blaming the 'Dole scoungers' for sucking the money dry. The entities that are really robbing you are the Corperations and Goverment, how much do you think the Parasitic 'Royal' family scrounge on? Or how much in taxes a company like phones4u ows becouse they have offshore bank acounts?
Will,

What have you done for your country? Do you pay taxes at all?

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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 26th 2012, 08:03 AM

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Will,

What have you done for your country? Do you pay taxes at all?

- Tyr

Nope, im on the dole becouse i have not found a job yet. Why dont you ask my ex manager who accused me of doing something when it was not even my fault?

Anyway, all i said was that im sick of people labelling others who are on Benefits as 'scroungers' when its the corperations and other entites who are the real 'scroungers'.
   
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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 26th 2012, 04:15 PM

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Originally Posted by i_like_black View Post
And there's one small part I disagree with - because mentally ill people often do their very best to make the most of a situation and those things offered them, but sometimes still find themselves unable to handle the pressures of work or study. I think those with a valid psychiatric diagnosis should not be given the same ultimatum. Yes, they should still have to meet certain criteria in order to qualify for financial help, but they shouldn't be left with nothing if an attempt at work or study falls through.
Like I said, people should be held accountable for their actions and choices. Rarely do people "choose" to be mentally ill, therefore such should by definition be excluded. But also plenty of handicapped people (handicapped not by their own choice) fall into a slump and start expecting too many things to be done for them. I'm not saying it's a majority, or minority. I don't know how many it is, but I've known a few myself.


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Anyway, all i said was that im sick of people labelling others who are on Benefits as 'scroungers' when its the corperations and other entites who are the real 'scroungers'.
Did I specifically slate those who are on the dole? No. Yes my post is slanted towards such people, because naturally, those are the people I have to deal with more frequently on a daily basis. I don't know many high-paid bankers personally. I don't know any actually. Ergo, the bankers are not really "in-my-face" so I'm just that little bit less bothered about them. I generally mind my own, and respond to whatever it is that affects me most. I didn't have any outstanding debts or loans when the bankers crashed the system, neither did the rest of my family. We simply weren't affected as much by this as most other people probably were. Whereas at times, I've had to put up almost daily with the arrogance of the scrounging shits at the bottom loafing about and being abusive on street corners.

The general gist of my original post is that I spit on this obligation where myself (and many other people) have to pay out of our own pockets for the mistakes of other people, for other people's negligence, or worst of all, for other people's intentional malice and greed.

If the bankers didn't crash the system, the money that got spent on them would have just instead probably been spent on other, mostly pointless bullshit. My point being that it's not really the bankers' fault, or the scroungers' either actually. It's just a shitty government that allows parasites to live off everyone else and profit from it. It even encourages it. Think about it, what's the point in going through all the effort as an honest person, trying to earn yourself a higher salary, where suddenly if you're earning over some £30K a year you have to pay 30% or maybe even 40% tax? On top of that there's accommodation that needs paying, food, other taxes, extortionate fuel prices. If you're very good at managing it all, you might walk off with £5,000 a year at the very most. It's easier to just claim the benefits for unemployment and work illegally, maybe even selling drugs or something. Or another popular option is to spend lots of money through credit cards and then declare yourself bankrupt. Can run off with quite a lot of money like this, especially when some of these people work together as a family.


If you've got some spare time, read this:

http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/f40-s...-d/#post631229

But don't if you're easily triggered. If you're not easily triggered then go ahead.



Last edited by BDF; April 26th 2012 at 08:25 PM.
   
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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 27th 2012, 08:55 AM

I agree with Will. It seems like we loose a hell of a lot more money through the rich not paying taxes than we do through paying benefits to people. Maybe instead of cutting benefits, we could make the rich pay their fair share?


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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 27th 2012, 12:51 PM

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I agree with Will. It seems like we loose a hell of a lot more money through the rich not paying taxes than we do through paying benefits to people. Maybe instead of cutting benefits, we could make the rich pay their fair share?
Not to attack you, but are there any figures of these sorts of things?

And I wouldn't necessarily support cutting benefits. Most people go through hard times in life when they need this kind of support for a short period. I do support taking benefits away from people that don't care and don't deserve them. People who make themselves a fucking career out of not having one, and spend almost their entire life claiming benefits, besides the few occasions that they worked in some joint and got fired the next day for not turning up to work.

And just for the record. If bankers mess up, they should be fired and made to pay the damages, even if it leads to them ultimately having to claim benefits for a living. Shit happens, and people deserve a 2nd chance (in my opinion), but a lot of them did what they did intentionally, knowing pretty well what it might lead to. They got their hands up the asses of people in the US government and managed to get legislation passed that allowed the deregulation of banks. Then other Western countries followed. Then the banks directly took advantage of the loophole they themselves created. They do deserve to be shot, for being assholes. Not for being rich as a lot of people label them that way.


If you've got some spare time, read this:

http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/f40-s...-d/#post631229

But don't if you're easily triggered. If you're not easily triggered then go ahead.


   
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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 28th 2012, 03:20 AM

We need to make the rich pay their fare share, and we need to cut out the leeches and the welfare abusers.

Both things need to happen. There is absolutely no reason why we should tolerate abuse and attachment to a system designed to give a helping hand, not completely satiate the needs of a bunch of good for nothing leeches.

As much as I don't like wealthy people who don't pay their fair share, I hate people who exist solely to soak up benefits and give nothing back even more. Especially when they turn around and bitch about the corporations.


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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 28th 2012, 12:03 PM

Yes but what about the ones who want to work but they can't because of the high levels of unemployment and that every job has at least 20-30 applicants for each job ? It's a tough field out there. I work and I also receive job seekers allowance, not because I'm lazy , I'm far from lazy, but because my job does not offer enough hours and the pay is not enough for me to live on, therefore through no choice of my own I have had to receive job seekers allowance.

If I could work full time I'd happily work full time, but I can't due to unemployment levels being at an all time high, jobs are scarce and when you do apply for a job you're up against a hell of a lot of competition. And in fact part of the requirement whilst on job seekers allowance is that you look for jobs, if you don't look for jobs, attend interviews or inquire about a job an adviser has suggested to you, they do actually suspend your benefits etc.

And what about the people on DSA - disability living allowance ? Who cannot work due to having a very restricting disability ? Or those with mental health issues who are signed off sick. Are you really going to tell them to sod off and go beg on the streets ? No I wouldn't think so. Everyone is part of society job or no job. The benefits are there to help those who need the extra income from government.

While some of the people on benefits do abuse the system, most don't. Some chose to be on benefits. Myself not included. If I could work more hours, I would but till unemployment levels go down and more jobs are available I don't see that happening any time soon. It's not sponging off the government or being lazy it's doing what you can to survive.

I think before you start labeling people on benefits lazy etc be aware of the facts, most people on job seekers allowance these days want to work but through no fault of their own cannot. Stop labeling and judging. Everyone needs to live, some just need a little extra help and support with their income through benefits.



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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 28th 2012, 03:12 PM

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Yes but what about the ones who want to work but they can't because of the high levels of unemployment and that every job has at least 20-30 applicants for each job ? It's a tough field out there. I work and I also receive job seekers allowance, not because I'm lazy , I'm far from lazy, but because my job does not offer enough hours and the pay is not enough for me to live on, therefore through no choice of my own I have had to receive job seekers allowance.

If I could work full time I'd happily work full time, but I can't due to unemployment levels being at an all time high, jobs are scarce and when you do apply for a job you're up against a hell of a lot of competition. And in fact part of the requirement whilst on job seekers allowance is that you look for jobs, if you don't look for jobs, attend interviews or inquire about a job an adviser has suggested to you, they do actually suspend your benefits etc.

And what about the people on DSA - disability living allowance ? Who cannot work due to having a very restricting disability ? Or those with mental health issues who are signed off sick. Are you really going to tell them to sod off and go beg on the streets ? No I wouldn't think so. Everyone is part of society job or no job. The benefits are there to help those who need the extra income from government.

While some of the people on benefits do abuse the system, most don't. Some chose to be on benefits. Myself not included. If I could work more hours, I would but till unemployment levels go down and more jobs are available I don't see that happening any time soon. It's not sponging off the government or being lazy it's doing what you can to survive.

I think before you start labeling people on benefits lazy etc be aware of the facts, most people on job seekers allowance these days want to work but through no fault of their own cannot. Stop labeling and judging. Everyone needs to live, some just need a little extra help and support with their income through benefits.
Like I said before, people should be held accountable for their choices. You don't really choose the outcome of a job interview, although you do influence it obviously. I did not label people on benefits as lazy either. But I'll make a bold statement here and say that a very large number of lazy people, probably are on benefits.

And really, is it so difficult to cheat the system? So someone turns up to a job interview that they don't really care about and haven't even prepared for. Job done, now they can hit the couch with a strongbow cider, watch TV, and claim their benefits. Maybe here and there write a crappy misspelt email to some employer pretentiously asking for a job. I've seen this happening on so many occasions. Asshole just watches TV for most of the day and claims to be looking for a job. Looking for a job to me means spending most of your day searching, enquiring, make phonecalls, writing letters, attending interviews etc. Not some bullshit.


If you've got some spare time, read this:

http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/f40-s...-d/#post631229

But don't if you're easily triggered. If you're not easily triggered then go ahead.



Last edited by BDF; April 28th 2012 at 03:19 PM.
   
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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 28th 2012, 04:44 PM

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And really, is it so difficult to cheat the system? So someone turns up to a job interview that they don't really care about and haven't even prepared for. Job done, now they can hit the couch with a strongbow cider, watch TV, and claim their benefits. Maybe here and there write a crappy misspelt email to some employer pretentiously asking for a job. I've seen this happening on so many occasions. Asshole just watches TV for most of the day and claims to be looking for a job. Looking for a job to me means spending most of your day searching, enquiring, make phonecalls, writing letters, attending interviews etc. Not some bullshit.
Stereotyping again. ' asshole just watches tv for most of the day and claims to be looking for a job' ' job done now they can hit the couch with a can of Strongbow'

I'm sorry but what ? Did you not read what I put, if they do not feel you are making an adequate effort to find a job they will suspend your benefits, they actually follow up job interviews and make sure you attended and that you didn't just sit there and tell them ' not interested' or something along of the lines of that.
You are just inflicting your own idea of the benefit system and stereotyping those on benefits.

While some do cheat the system the majority don't. Stop stereotyping.

The majority on benefits are on them for a reason, yes some people probably are lazy but the majority are not. It's not right to stereotype everyone as an 'asshole' or ' drinking strongbow on the couch'.

We do have contend with this stereotype but why should we ? Just because a few are like that does not mean we all are.

I've applied for countless jobs, attended interviews, sent me C.V. off to employers, Gone into shops and asked and handed in my C.V.
This is what most people do, the only problem I have with the benefit system is they often recommend jobs to you that you cannot either get to or an not experienced to do so they still make you attend interviews etc and then wonder why you didn't get the job.

And also there is a minimum of jobs you have to look for and apply too or at least consider applying to every two weeks, most people will look for more, some will just look for the minimum of six over the two weeks.



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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 28th 2012, 11:35 PM

lol, I wasn't stereotyping. I know of a person who does this since I visit his brother's house regularly enough. He has some scraggy suit from MATALAN that he uses for job interviews. Usually he has his laptop out, apparently looking for jobs, but is mostly distracted by the TV which he keep on all the time, from breakfast until midnight. Walks his dog twice a day, thats all the exercise he gets, besides buying himself the occasional ready made meal from some shop or other and attending a few job interviews occasionally. Usually he gets someone else to do the shopping though.

These are the people I can't stand. I never really suggested I had a problem with people who claim some form of benefit or another. I have a problem with the assholes who abuse this system. But a few people here who are a little sensitive on the benefits side started fussing over something I never really said anyway.


If you've got some spare time, read this:

http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/f40-s...-d/#post631229

But don't if you're easily triggered. If you're not easily triggered then go ahead.


   
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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 29th 2012, 12:42 AM

How do you think we should TRY to ensure people do not abuse it?




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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 29th 2012, 01:42 AM

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I never really suggested I had a problem with people who claim some form of benefit or another. I have a problem with the assholes who abuse this system.
Right. Those are the only people I have a problem with, even if they ARE in the minority. I know people who fit the stereotype and this really annoys me (such as the people across the street who don't work and instead smoke pot and pop out children :P ). They ruin the reputation for the majority of people on the systems who are actively trying, but it'd be difficult to prove who's abusing the system and who's not.


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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 29th 2012, 04:08 AM

I completely agree. I think its ridiculous that people who work damn hard for their money have to give away some of their paycheck for the the lazy asses who do nothing all day, and still get the benefits of hard working people. Now im all for welfare if you actually need it, like you work 2 jobs and still cant make ends meet, or you have a mental or physical disability etc, but if you are perfectly capable of getting a job and you dont even TRY, thats disgusting to me. that people feel so entitled to others hard work makes me so angry.

I work almost 30 hours a week and am still in high school and also have extracurricular programs and sports I do, yet I still work and go to my job, contribute to society and do what im supposed to do, yet people who do absoulte shit all get to take some of my paycheck and im only 18 years old, thats just wrong. I've had the same job for a year now, I had my last job for almost a year and a half, my 75 year old grandmother has a job and so does my 14 year old cousin, for christ sake my uncle who is 50 years old and PARALYSED from the waist down and only has one leg has a good paying job, everyone should atleast make an effort, there is no reason for people to not try atleast. And i know everyone will say that most people on these programs dont manipulate or use the system but i know quite a few people on welfare and not one of them actually need it. Its appaling that people can just take from other people and think they deserve it without even trying for themselves, those are the people that baffle me and get unbelievably angry.
/end rant


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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 29th 2012, 04:39 AM

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Originally Posted by LittleMissOneBigMess View Post
Its appaling that people can just take from other people and think they deserve it without even trying for themselves, those are the people that baffle me and get unbelievably angry.
/end rant
My mother works with someone who was actually telling me how bad it gets. She said that some people over here in the U.S. manage to get it by signing up with using a lot of different last names. For example, they use their name, their mother's maiden name, etc.


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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 29th 2012, 07:09 AM

Yes, i agree that some do abuse the system. But the amount that goes to Jobseekers is very very tiny compared to how much the Corperations and Goverment scrounge.
   
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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 29th 2012, 07:29 AM

Here's the thing: people always talk about the do-nothing's and leeches and abusers of the welfare system. Are there some? Certainly. But are they the majority? No. The problem is people act like they are all living off some big fat government check, but they aren't. Just to be clear, I am talk about the taxes issue here: hatred for higher taxes but a constant demand for government services.

Most people using government services are not abusing it. That's like saying all mormons are polygamists (which they aren't).

Like it or not, we all have to pay taxes. Are they fun? No. But they pay for things. Like bridges, and roads, and education, and new libraries, parks, hospitals, businesses, medicaid/medicare, social security, mental health services, fire and police departments, Department of Public Safety, Department of Motor vehicle safety....the list goes on and on. The thing is, people act like they're taxes are doled out to specific funs, like the "welfare" fund, but they aren't really. They go to whatever needs going to.

Honestly, the real issue is just that people don't like to pay for shit they don't or won't use. Which sucks because when THEY find themselves down on luck and in need of assistance, they really wish they had paid some higher taxes, because they're now at the bottom of a very long list in line for assistance.


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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 29th 2012, 10:24 AM

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lol, I wasn't stereotyping. I know of a person who does this since I visit his brother's house regularly enough. He has some scraggy suit from MATALAN that he uses for job interviews. Usually he has his laptop out, apparently looking for jobs, but is mostly distracted by the TV which he keep on all the time, from breakfast until midnight. Walks his dog twice a day, thats all the exercise he gets, besides buying himself the occasional ready made meal from some shop or other and attending a few job interviews occasionally. Usually he gets someone else to do the shopping though.

These are the people I can't stand. I never really suggested I had a problem with people who claim some form of benefit or another. I have a problem with the assholes who abuse this system. But a few people here who are a little sensitive on the benefits side started fussing over something I never really said anyway.
That is just one person, you are then saying the majority do that, when they don't. I certainly don't.



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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 29th 2012, 11:24 AM

But to widen the net on this whole issue. I also have a big problem with:

1. Prisons ("apparently") costing up to £100,000 per year per person sometimes. I don't remember where I got that figure from, it was several years ago in the news I think, it might not be reliable. My point stands regardless.

2. I have a big problem with paying for ambulance services and cleaning services to deal with the drunks and their sick on the streets.

3. Sick of money going to bail out Northern Rock which the government then just sells off for half the fucking amount it bought it for. lol

4. And of course, sick of those jerks at the bottom who do nothing more with themselves than claim money.

5. Sick of people mass producing kids and then failing to pay any money towards their upbringing. Then the "single parent" (usually the mum) is in fact forced into claiming benefits to support such kids. Some parents even have kids purely just to claim benefits. It costs something like £200,000 to raise a kid nowadays... and I think A LOT of benefits money disappears down that plughole. It doesn't benefit anyone but the meathead who refuses to give money towards their kid(s).


SOLUTIONS:

1. Make all prisoners share a cell, it saves space and resources. Fuck human rights in this respect. Make them all work, from 8am to 5pm at least. Again, fuck human rights. If some are disabled or this that and the other then obviously allocate work which they can handle. They could even be subcontracted to private corps to dig up chalk in the mountains. I don't care. Right now, from what I hear read and see, all the hardship that most prisoners get is when they beat each other up. You get the same if you take a shortcut through a side road on a Friday night... it is hardly a big deal anymore (relatively speaking).

2. 1st warning, 2nd warning, then fines that increase every time you do it, to pay for the services. Something like this used to exist in Poland I think until EU regulations messed things up somehow.

3. If a bank falls on its face, let some other suckers bail them out and go to hell with them.

4. Hard to find a solution which doesn't involve some sort of Fascist regime. But I'd go as far as to suggest that people who repetitively fail at getting a job, get "compulsory help", which would involve them reporting to the job centre or agent (I don't know the technicalities) with increasing frequency, up until the point that such people may even have the authority to pay them a forced visit in their home. Obviously something like this would have to be carefully regulated. But hell, child services are already doing it so it doesn't seam like enough people give a shit anyway.

5. Make it compulsory for both parents to pay what they should towards the kid, or they simply go to prison for a short term (2 weeks maybe a month at most). This system exists in Poland and it works very well.



How about that?


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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 29th 2012, 09:30 PM

They are actually planning to put a cap on child benefits if you have more than three children you will only get the benefits for the first three children. And without child benefits I think where I work may go bust, given I work in a pre-school in a deprived area. Most parents use their benefits to pay for thier childs childcare and for thier child. That then goes with the two year old, three year old and four year old funding , they are only funded for 15 hours a week if they want they extra hours they pay the fees - fees which do usually come from thier child benefits etc. So without these benefits etc I would be completely jobless, rather than just working part time.



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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 30th 2012, 03:33 AM

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1. Make all prisoners share a cell, it saves space and resources. Fuck human rights in this respect. Make them all work, from 8am to 5pm at least. Again, fuck human rights. If some are disabled or this that and the other then obviously allocate work which they can handle. They could even be subcontracted to private corps to dig up chalk in the mountains. I don't care. Right now, from what I hear read and see, all the hardship that most prisoners get is when they beat each other up. You get the same if you take a shortcut through a side road on a Friday night... it is hardly a big deal anymore (relatively speaking).
I suppose if you want recidivism to skyrocket and the jail system to grow exponentially, sure.

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3. If a bank falls on its face, let some other suckers bail them out and go to hell with them.

Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDF View Post
4. Hard to find a solution which doesn't involve some sort of Fascist regime. But I'd go as far as to suggest that people who repetitively fail at getting a job, get "compulsory help", which would involve them reporting to the job centre or agent (I don't know the technicalities) with increasing frequency, up until the point that such people may even have the authority to pay them a forced visit in their home. Obviously something like this would have to be carefully regulated. But hell, child services are already doing it so it doesn't seam like enough people give a shit anyway.

Also agreed. But only after a certain point.

I.E- a year of claiming benefits with no real job. If you are trying, this doesn't apply to you. But if it is discovered you aren't, no more handouts for you.

Quote:
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5. Make it compulsory for both parents to pay what they should towards the kid, or they simply go to prison for a short term (2 weeks maybe a month at most). This system exists in Poland and it works very well.
To this, and to what Banshee said, I have only this.

If you have three children that you cannot support on your own, and require handouts for, you don't get to keep any other children you create under your roof. They are placed in foster care, until they grow up, or you get you shit together.

Jailing the parents isn't going to solve anything, but neither is throwing money at them for every kid they pop out.


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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 30th 2012, 08:53 AM

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1. I suppose if you want recidivism to skyrocket and the jail system to grow exponentially, sure.
I don't really see the current system in the UK working. Increasing numbers of people are re-offending and the prisons are over-filled already. It's completely unsustainable economically in my opinion. Getting such people to do something at least slightly constructive might make this kind of shit tolerable to the rest of society.

Prisons are overfilled. Ergo, courts are handing out shitty jail terms such as 5 years for rape, and even despite that the guilty party usually walks after 2 years.


Quote:
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5. To this, and to what Banshee said, I have only this.

If you have three children that you cannot support on your own, and require handouts for, you don't get to keep any other children you create under your roof. They are placed in foster care, until they grow up, or you get you shit together.

Jailing the parents isn't going to solve anything, but neither is throwing money at them for every kid they pop out.
Whether the children are placed in foster care, or in an orphanage, it is still subsidized by other people. Whichever way this is done exactly is kind of irrelevant I think, because there are plenty of kids that need adopting as it is. The cost of this is spread over many people.

Maybe jailing the parents won't work. You might be right. It works in Poland but that's a slightly different culture. People shouldn't be allowed to have kids and then just wash their hands off them. They should be made to pay one way or another. If the government/tax payer/public has to pay to raise the kids, then the irresponsible parent who refuses to pay should be made to do community service maybe, which would equate to a salary of the minimum wage. That way they can "pay-back" what their actions are costing the rest of us. If it costs £30 a week to look after a newborn, then they do 6 hours of community work, at £5 an hour to pay the £30 off that the tax payer pays for (assuming the minimum wage is £5 an hour). If they have two kids that they don't pay for, then it is 12 hours community service a week, until the kid is 18. And if they are British born they shouldn't be allowed to leave the country until they get their shit sorted this way. Can't just "run-away" from things like this and leave it for other people to clear up. If they're not British born then it's a bit harder to regulate them.

There are are quite a few people that do not give a shit if their kid gets taken away. Amongst many African fathers, I've read that it's actually some sort of fucking status symbol to have as many kids as they can and never have anything to do with them.


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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 30th 2012, 11:26 AM

Well then nearly every child in England would pretty much be in foster care etc - child benefits help all families, the rich, the poor, the families living under the poverty line. Either way child benefits are helping families. Why put all children in foster care because their parents do not work or earn enough money - those parents probably love their children a-lot and those children may have the best home life they can be given where as other families who are not poor and are 'middle class' may have the shittiest home life. You can't judge people based on their earnings or how many benefit schemes they are on.

Why put more strain on an already large number of children in an already over flowing foster care system ? Surely the government and local council helps the foster care system with money etc ? Whats the difference ?


BDF - you question what the minimum wage is - it's £6.10 for under 25's



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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 30th 2012, 12:19 PM

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Why put all children in foster care because their parents do not work or earn enough money - those parents probably love their children a-lot and those children may have the best home life they can be given where as other families who are not poor and are 'middle class' may have the shittiest home life. You can't judge people based on their earnings or how many benefit schemes they are on.

Why put more strain on an already large number of children in an already over flowing foster care system ? Surely the government and local council helps the foster care system with money etc ? Whats the difference ?
I think I agree with you. Money doesn't solve all the problems, but it is required for the basic necessities.

I think you're replying to TigerTank rather than me since I never really supported taking kids out of their families, unless there is something remarkably abusive going on.

If the parents don't provide money for the kid, because they genuinely don't have any money and don't have a job, then child benefits are acceptable I think, and I'd even support awarding more than just the minimum amount required to satisfy the most basic needs of a kid. Kids need more than nappies, food, and a cot. I think child benefits per kid should be between £25 to £35 as the grow up, simply because they'l need more food and stuff like that.

I wasn't even aware that pretty much everyone qualifies for child benefits. I see little point in giving money to a family which can stand on its own feet pretty comfortably as if they're in need of charity. Perhaps if it is a single parent, yes, because they'l likely have to take time off work and things like that, or pay for a nanny etc.


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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 30th 2012, 03:12 PM

Yes I was mostly talking to tiger tank in that comment haha, the only bit in the comment that was directly for you is the bit about the minimum wage.
Yeah but I suppose if they didn't the families who are not on it would get all annoyed about it, they did it with the EMA (education maintenance allowance) I could have done with EMA whilst in college but because there was a thresh-hold on the EMA I could not actually receive this due to my parents earning over the thresh-hold, which to me seemed rather unfair as whilst all my friends could afford lunch in the cafe etc I was the odd one out having to bring a pack lunch into college with me, the whole idea of EMA was to reward those going into further education I was in further education but there was no EMA for me, I got annoyed about that, I would imagine it would be the same with only giving poorer families and families under the poverty line child benefits due to equality and diversity and equal rights and everything else and I'm pretty sure some families would also go down the road of saying that the government is discriminating against them by not allowing them to receive child benefits. You can get child benefits till your child is 18. Even though by the age of 16 your child may have moved out - I think you can still receive the child benefit for them. Or maybe for the richer families still allow them to receive the child benefits but make the amount they receive less that why everyone is still getting the child benefits but its fairer as the people who need it more will get more - and the people who are well off enough to not need so much cannot exactly complain that they've been left out of money etc.



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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 30th 2012, 03:34 PM

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Yes I was mostly talking to tiger tank in that comment haha, the only bit in the comment that was directly for you is the bit about the minimum wage.
Yeah but I suppose if they didn't the families who are not on it would get all annoyed about it, they did it with the EMA (education maintenance allowance) I could have done with EMA whilst in college but because there was a thresh-hold on the EMA I could not actually receive this due to my parents earning over the thresh-hold, which to me seemed rather unfair as whilst all my friends could afford lunch in the cafe etc I was the odd one out having to bring a pack lunch into college with me, the whole idea of EMA was to reward those going into further education I was in further education but there was no EMA for me, I got annoyed about that, I would imagine it would be the same with only giving poorer families and families under the poverty line child benefits due to equality and diversity and equal rights and everything else and I'm pretty sure some families would also go down the road of saying that the government is discriminating against them by not allowing them to receive child benefits. You can get child benefits till your child is 18. Even though by the age of 16 your child may have moved out - I think you can still receive the child benefit for them. Or maybe for the richer families still allow them to receive the child benefits but make the amount they receive less that why everyone is still getting the child benefits but its fairer as the people who need it more will get more - and the people who are well off enough to not need so much cannot exactly complain that they've been left out of money etc.
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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - April 30th 2012, 03:54 PM

I know that , but I was using EMA as an example of what could happen if they only gave child benefit to poor families and families who are under the poverty line.



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Re: Some people are just a lost cause - May 1st 2012, 08:23 PM

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If the parents don't provide money for the kid, because they genuinely don't have any money and don't have a job, then child benefits are acceptable I think, and I'd even support awarding more than just the minimum amount required to satisfy the most basic needs of a kid. Kids need more than nappies, food, and a cot. I think child benefits per kid should be between £25 to £35 as the grow up, simply because they'l need more food and stuff like that.
I might have contradicted myself. Strict measures would have to be taken to make sure money that is supposed to be spent on the kids is actually spent on the kids. The above would still be open to abuse from certain assholes.


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