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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Arrow Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 02:23 AM

http://www.capemaycountyherald.com/a...rivers039+cars

Personally, I think that this is a really good idea, given that so many awful tragedies happen when teenagers are wreckless. Not saying that adults aren't, because I know there are about a billion adults who drive like they're assholes.

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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 02:27 AM

This is horrid ageism as it's most horrid. Except nobody cares about young people...

I wonder how many teenagers drive down the motorway the wrong way?
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 02:40 AM

Can anyone say ageism? If this had happened in MD when I had my permit and provisional, I think I would have flipped. If this happens for teens, require older people to have one when they hit say.. 60?


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 03:40 AM

How exactly is going to help... anything? Unless that sticker has magic powers, people are still gonna do stupid shit behind the wheel. Fucking ageism.

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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 03:44 AM

I don't see how it would help. Also, a lot of families share cars and sometimes the teen won't even be driving that car.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 03:49 AM

ugh, I hate ageism.




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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 03:52 AM

This won't do anything other then piss off a few teens and cause more trouble.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 04:12 AM

This is a terrible disgrace! I'm offended!!
Not only is this not going to help ANYTHING, it is completely unjust and (as others have rightly pointed out) outright ageism!
Urrrg! Stupid laws... this is frustrating! This needs to be appealed... seriously. Unfair. Unjust. Awful...
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 04:19 AM

The main thing that bothers me about this is that cars with these decals might be targeted by reckless drivers (the kind of drivers that cut off motorcycles just for the hell of it) to harass them on the road.



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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 05:42 AM

What exactly are these signs supposed to do? We have them in BC, if you're a new driver you have to put a green 'N' in your rear window...but I've never quite understood the purpose of it.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 05:53 AM

I doubt this will slow anything, it just seems dumb.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 06:48 AM

I think it's supposed to prevent kids from doing stupid shit behind the wheel. With more serious penalties for being irresponsible and reckless behind the wheel, it might teach the newer drivers not to be silly-billies. By being taught from the beginning, they might get an instilled sense of discipline and better respect the privilege of driving? I admit though, perhaps they should do that to older people too, just so everyone stops bitching about ageism.

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Teen driver crashes are the leading cause of death for our nation’s youth. The overwhelming majority of these crashes are caused by inexperience or distractions, not "thrill-seeking" or deliberate risk-taking.
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Crashes are more common among young drivers than any other age group. In the United States, 1 in 4 crash fatalities involve someone 16 to 24 years old, nearly twice as high as other age groups.
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The crash fatality rate (crash fatalities/100,000 population) is highest for 16 to 17 year olds within the first six months after licensure — and remains high through age 24.
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I know it's easy to shout ageism and continue to butthurt, but there are usually actual reasons that people try to put these laws into effect -- it's to save lives. Sure, there are going to be some places with asshole cops in small towns that are bored out of their minds, and they're going to go out of their way to make you miserable on their quota. That's a given. But you should be pointing the finger at the teenagers that ruined your chance at freedom. They fucked it up for everyone else, and the state is only doing what they feel will cut down the chance of death because bitches text and drive at the same time.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 07:16 AM

A sign can easily be taken off the car...and unless you get pulled over, who would know?


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 11:33 AM

Horrible idea. Ageism is a terrible thing, and I think that there are enough bad adult drivers to mandate needing this on all vehicles, instead of just teenagers'. Either that, or the state could save tons of money and not put the tags on ANY vehicle.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 01:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird! View Post
I think it's supposed to prevent kids from doing stupid shit behind the wheel. With more serious penalties for being irresponsible and reckless behind the wheel, it might teach the newer drivers not to be silly-billies. By being taught from the beginning, they might get an instilled sense of discipline and better respect the privilege of driving? I admit though, perhaps they should do that to older people too, just so everyone stops bitching about ageism.
Which is ageism! Why should a kid get a lengthier punishment for committing the same crime as an adult?! That's the definition of ageism. The problem is that children do not get the vote so politicians do not care.
I mean why not put them on previous offenders?
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 01:48 PM

I suppose I could understand if it was for new drivers, but for just teenagers? That's ridiculous. I don't see how it's going to help, either. It's just reinforcing the stereotype that teenagers are reckless and stupid. Some are, but certainly not all. Besides, if someone is a terrible driver you can usually tell without a sticker.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by udontno View Post
I don't see how it would help. Also, a lot of families share cars and sometimes the teen won't even be driving that car.
as someone who lives in NJ, I am GLAD to see this law passed.
I have lost friends in those accidents, those who had a provisional and had 3 more passengers then they were supposed to... being Idiots. this decal will help Police Identify and penalize those who break the passenger limit and help to enforce the restriction on hours that teens are allowed to drive between.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 02:08 PM

Quote:
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as someone who lives in NJ, I am GLAD to see this law passed.
I have lost friends in those accidents, those who had a provisional and had 3 more passengers then they were supposed to... being Idiots. this decal will help Police Identify and penalize those who break the passenger limit and help to enforce the restriction on hours that teens are allowed to drive between.
A Curfew?! You've got to be fucking kidding me...
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 02:24 PM

Why teenagers? Because teenagers are responcible for a higher amount of road accidents. THAT is why. Teenagers get charged higher insurance rates but no one goes around moaning about that being ageist. This isn't ageisim, it's a responce for a growing problem. The majority bad drivers are teenagers! FACT.

I don't think it's a bad idea at all, I don't think it's ageist. You have learner plates when you're a learner to make you more visible to other drivers. You have a plate on your car to say you are a teenager... what is the big deal? Get over it.

This law is not ageist, the simple truth is that young drivers have more crashes and accidents, this is a law responding to that. I don't see anything in Kyleigh's Law that is a negative and before we know what the responce is and how things are adjusted (I wouldn't be at all suprised if the accident and fatalities went DOWN and how can that ever be a bad thing?) we shouldn't be passing so much judgement.

Why is there a restriction on the hours you can drive? Because there are lot of accidents between those times and to be honest you can understand why.

I think you all need to calm down and get over yourselves - these restrictions are there to help you and reduce accidents and deaths. I fully support this.
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 02:26 PM

It depends what you have to sacrifice in order to gain those lower fatalities
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 02:27 PM

What is the sacrifice here? Pride? Being able to drive at 2am? Come on.
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 02:29 PM

Quote:
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as someone who lives in NJ, I am GLAD to see this law passed.
I have lost friends in those accidents, those who had a provisional and had 3 more passengers then they were supposed to... being Idiots. this decal will help Police Identify and penalize those who break the passenger limit and help to enforce the restriction on hours that teens are allowed to drive between.
I can see how it would help with the curfew thing, but we have a lot of "exceptions" to our curfew so pulling someone over past curfew here would most likely interfere with something. We have a lot of kids who do volunteer fire and rescue and they can drive after curfew if going to or from a call. Pulling on of them over and then having to listen to their story could interfere with saving lives. So they'd probably need another sticker so they could be identified.

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A Curfew?! You've got to be fucking kidding me...
I think that's pretty much everywhere. It's not unreasonable. Here you can't drive from midnight to four AM, I believe.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 02:40 PM

So you're screwed if you work nights/overtime?

The sacrifice is a restriction on freedom of movement. Proportionally more kids have accident than adults but that is already reflected via insurance quotes, it's being punished for the same 'crime' twice (not dissimilar to double jeopardy if the 'crime' and 'evidence' is being a teenager being able to drive.)

   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:
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So you're screwed if you work nights/overtime?

The sacrifice is a restriction on freedom of movement. Proportionally more kids have accident than adults but that is already reflected via insurance quotes, it's being punished for the same 'crime' twice (not dissimilar to double jeopardy if the 'crime' and 'evidence' is being a teenager being able to drive.)

Exactly. Especially because it's quite possible the reason teenagers have more accidents is because they're new drivers, not because of their age. Some teenagers are idiots but there's also quite a few adults who are. It doesn't matter what age they are; they're still going to act stupid.

You wouldn't punish a whole group for something one person did just because they have similarities. Here's an example: There are 50 students at a school. 10 have red hair. One of them destroys a library book. None of the people with red hair are allowed to use the services of the library anymore.

That's how silly this is. There's lots of other examples, such as racism(especially with the statistics) Isn't there a higher crime rate for people who aren't white? That's just because there are more people from those races that come from lower income areas, it doesn't mean that if someone is a different colour they're going to go around commiting crimes. (On a side note, why do people even do the studies based on skin colour? It just encourages racism. They don't study how many people with red hair does something)


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 03:27 PM

Plus of course while there may be a higher proportion of kids who crash than adults the ratio of accidents/non-accidents is low. Even if it was 10% that still mean 9/10 young drivers are being punished for their age. Explain how that is not ageism
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 04:06 PM

QUESTION:
Do u guys in America need to put these speed limit stickers on your car if the driver has not had 2 years of experience driving yet?


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitten View Post
as someone who lives in NJ, I am GLAD to see this law passed.
I have lost friends in those accidents, those who had a provisional and had 3 more passengers then they were supposed to... being Idiots. this decal will help Police Identify and penalize those who break the passenger limit and help to enforce the restriction on hours that teens are allowed to drive between.
But how hard is it to take the sticker off? If I'm illegally driving three of my friends around, and I don't want the cops to be able to stop me for it, I'd take the sticker off! The only way the cops will for sure be able to identify people breaking passenger limits would be to pull them over, at which point they:
a)really are breaking the passenger limit and are stupid to leave the sign up advertising it
b)have taken the sign down, in which case it's the bad driving that would get the cops attention - no need for the sign
c)have a case of families sharing a car, and one of the older members is driving and forgot to take the sign down - no breaking of laws.

The sign seems as useless to me as the signs we use in BC. We have new driver signs. And they're useless. My friends still do stupid things when they're driving, even though they have the 'N' in their window. If they don't want to be bothered by cops, they take the 'N' down.

As we seem to have no worries about restricting rights because statistics show it might be a good idea, here's a proposal for the next law - most crimes are committed by people who aren't white. Many of those crimes happen at night. So from now on, if you're not white, you're not allowed to leave your house after dark. No, no, it's not racism, I swear. It's doing the responsible thing to lower crime rates.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 05:38 PM

I can definitely see this as being ageism. Young teens drive like idiots, but so do older drivers. Then again, middle-aged drivers aren't perfect either. I can't count the number of times I've almost gotten into an accident because of the other guy - but it hasn't been a young teenager or an elderly person every time. Most of the time, it is a middle-aged driver.

I don't think it's fair to point provisional drivers out among the rest. It's basically giving cops a target to watch them like hawks and any mistakes the driver makes, whether large or small, can be ticketed far more than anyone else. Sure, this could be good because there is a lot of reckless driving on the road. However, if they're paying more attention to provisions, cops won't be able to see other idiot drivers of various ages making stupid mistakes.

No one is a perfect driver, and everyone should be watching out for EVERYONE, not just people of a specific age. Everyone can be equally dangerous to one another - which is the precise reason they tell you in Driver's Education to watch absolutely everything happening around you.

Honestly, I don't think the law is a good one. I can't see it preventing much reckless driving at all.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 05:42 PM

Yet no one objects to having to test older people for their driver's license.
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 07:07 PM

Well, all I know is I'm glad I was born a couple years earlier

Even so, I'm not too happy about this. One, you can easily take this thing off your car, and two, this won't stop teens from violating GDL.

I'm from NJ, and I violated GDL almost every damn day. Lucky I didn't get pulled over then, but its a law that teens completely ignore. I know people who even drove in Manhattan the first day they had their provisional license with 4 people in their car....

The way I see it: This is just more of an opportunity for kids to break the law and get tickets for stupid reasons. In the end it will make kids even more stupid somehow...

Plus, people need to understand that accidents will always happen. I'm sorry for people like Kyleigh, but....This happens. Welcome to life.
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 07:31 PM

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Originally Posted by Hyper Sonic View Post
A Curfew?! You've got to be fucking kidding me...
Why?
Every teen in America has a set curfew for driving hours.. I think the curfew is a great thing. It prevents them from driving at extremely late hours.

As for the sticker... It's just a sticker. I don't see the point in it, but also don't see the harm.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 07:39 PM

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Originally Posted by iHEAVENn View Post
Why?
Every teen in America has a set curfew for driving hours.. I think the curfew is a great thing. It prevents them from driving at extremely late hours.

As for the sticker... It's just a sticker. I don't see the point in it, but also don't see the harm.
Not only is it restriction of movement but why shouldn't they be allowed to drive at night? You may not believe me but teenagers still need to get from A to B

It's not the sticker - it's what the sticker represents. It represents a lack of trust and an attack on liberty and makes them liable for maltreatment

Jews wore yellow Stars of David in Nazi Occupied territory. It was just a sign, and there was no harm to the star itself
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 07:50 PM

I don't understand why there are so many panties in a bunch here -- with the given statistics, and perhaps your own experiences involving new and teenage drivers, how can you argue that this isn't going to at least help a little bit? Or is everyone convinced that this is legitimately a load of shit?


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 07:51 PM

Criminalising teenage drivers in all but name is not a price worth paying to save a few lives imo
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 07:53 PM

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Criminalising teenage drivers in all but name is not a price worth paying to save a few lives imo
Okay. What would you suggest to improve upon this law?


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 07:57 PM

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Okay. What would you suggest to improve upon this law?
Suspend it and request detailed facts and figures on the topic
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 07:59 PM

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Suspend it and request detailed facts and figures on the topic
They've already got loads of figures on the topic though. What would you, as a citizen, specifically suggest to make this law less "ageist" or somesuch? What do you think would be more effective against irresponsible and new drivers?


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 08:01 PM

I don't have the facts and figures. I cannot make a proper, informed decisions without them for myself

As is, I'd repeal it and maintain the status quo - insurance companies punish young people enough


By the way, how do you propose this law would affect irresponsible drivers who are older?
   
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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 08:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Hyper Sonic View Post

By the way, how do you propose this law would affect irresponsible drivers who are older?
I believe the law actually only applies to new drivers, who are usually almost always teenagers. However, non-teenage drivers will probably get a positive effect from it as teenagers will be less likely to break the law (too many passengers, talking on the phone, driving past curfew) while having an identification sticker or hang tag displayed in the car.

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Listed below are a few specifics the bill would accomplish and a note of explanation for each:

require the chief administrator to issue an orange hang tag/sticker to be displayed when a vehicle is being driven by the holder of a provisional license; (note: the car being marked [hang tag/sticker] will 1) assist law enforcement in identifying an infraction; 2) will also help with the peer pressure of driving reckless and/or having more passengers than allowed; 3) with the car marked young drivers will know that they can be easily identified and will refrain from taking the risk)
That answers the sticker question. A hang tag is ideal for family cars, whereas the sticker could be applied to a car that actually belongs to the new driver. Or, even better, the sticker could be put onto a family vehicle to ensure that said teenager won't use it after-hours, assuming the sticker is difficult to remove.


Quote:
change the threshold for mandatory license suspension from two or more motor vehicle offenses to any motor vehicle offense; and (note: as stated above, we need to take note of any offenses, immediately; these are young, inexperienced drivers)
With serious punishments, teenagers may feel less inclined to break the law. And it's true, younger drivers are less experienced and more likely to get distracted by extra company in the car or talking on a cell phone (clarification, talking on a cell phone is illegal in NJ). Notice how I underlined OFFENSES. An accident that is a direct cause of the driver breaking the law will be dealt with a much stronger hand.


Quote:
increase the mandatory license suspension from three months to five months (note: majority of the GDL/provisional license drivers will take note of this consequence, most will choose not to risk a lost of their privilege for this extended period of time, time that will need to be completed [1 full year] as a GDL/provisional driver before obtaining a New Jersey State License).
More or less self explanatory. More specifics from the law found here.


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Re: Kyleigh's Law Passed in NJ -- Thoughts? - April 17th 2009, 08:41 PM

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Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird! View Post
I believe the law actually only applies to new drivers, who are usually almost always teenagers. However, non-teenage drivers will probably get a positive effect from it as teenagers will be less likely to break the law (too many passengers, talking on the phone, driving past curfew) while having an identification sticker or hang tag displayed in the car.
Only the first sentence there applies to what I said. Many times I have seen people talking on the phone, doing their make up and very rarely are they teenagers. Not only that but many young drivers would be more careful, more experienced drivers can become blas or overconfident. Not to mention if a collision came down to a teenager's word against a middle aged's words then the teenager is much likelier to be found as the cause whether or not that's true

Quote:
That answers the sticker question. A hang tag is ideal for family cars, whereas the sticker could be applied to a car that actually belongs to the new driver. Or, even better, the sticker could be put onto a family vehicle to ensure that said teenager won't use it after-hours, assuming the sticker is difficult to remove.
Surely a teenager could remove the tag should they want to? And what about those parents who simply refuse to put the tag up because they don't believe their child is a criminal, unlike the State.


Quote:
With serious punishments, teenagers may feel less inclined to break the law. And it's true, younger drivers are less experienced and more likely to get distracted by extra company in the car or talking on a cell phone (clarification, talking on a cell phone is illegal in NJ). Notice how I underlined OFFENSES. An accident that is a direct cause of the driver breaking the law will be dealt with a much stronger hand.
A much stronger hand than what? An accident? - I should hope so! An adult? - Certainly not! I thought all citizens were equal under the law. Younger drivers are generally less experienced but low experience is often countered by being careful. It also implies that a young person's offences are more severe than an older person's.

Quote:
increase the mandatory license suspension from three months to five months (note: majority of the GDL/provisional license drivers will take note of this consequence, most will choose not to risk a lost of their privilege for this extended period of time, time that will need to be completed [1 full year] as a GDL/provisional driver before obtaining a New Jersey State License).

More or less self explanatory. More specifics from the law found here.

(Italics quoted from the law)

Again, why target kids? It's just reinforcing negative stereotypes towards teens. It's a sad day when you have to die to get good press as a teenager.

Not to mention the curfew in place. What would stop kids passing their test over the State border and using that State's licence?
   
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