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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 11th 2009, 07:15 PM

http://news.aol.com/article/steven-green-monster/474644



"You probably think I'm a monster."
That's what FBI agents said former U.S. soldier Steven Green told them nearly three years ago about accusations that he had raped a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and killed her and her family.


Green was found guilty Thursday in U.S. District Court in Paducah of the crimes and could face the death penalty.
Green spoke as the agents and he drove from his grandmother's home in Nebo, North Carolina, where he'd been arrested, to a detention center 45 minutes away in Asheville, North Carolina, authorities said.
According to court documents:
Green had taken his grandmother to dinner, and the two had plans for a movie. Agents asked the former Army private whether they could tell her the reason for his arrest. Green initially said yes, but changed his mind, not wanting to upset her. Agents let him smoke a few cigarettes before putting him in the car for the drive.

Without prompting, Green spoke.
"Knew you guys were coming," he said.
It was June 30, 2006, a month and a half after his discharge from the military. Green was a former member of the 502nd Parachute Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division, based in Fort Campbell, Kentucky.
The agents asked no questions. They listened as Green talked during the drive.
"All of my buddies were getting killed over there. My lieutenant got his face blown off. ... George Bush and Dick Cheney ought to be the ones that are arrested."
Green, a high school dropout, was a product of Bush's hometown of Midland, Texas. He had enlisted in 2005, leaving the hot, dry, oil-rich land of the Permian Basin for another hot, dry, oil-rich land.





"Joining the Army was the worst decision I ever made," he said.
Now, Green stands convicted for crimes he committed as a soldier.
Prosecutors said he and others in his unit plotted an attack on an Iraqi family. Green herded the parents and younger sister of 14-year-old Abeer al-Janabi into another room of a house while two accomplices raped her. He then gunned down her parents and her 6-year-old sister, before joining in the rape and killing the teenager.
The crimes happened in the Mahmoudiya area of Iraq, south of Baghdad, in 2006. Last week, a federal jury in McCracken County, Kentucky, deliberated for more than 10 hours before convicting Green for murder, rape, conspiracy and obstruction of justice, according to the court's Web site. Guilty on all 17 counts.
Four other former soldiers are in prison for their roles in the crime and the cover-up that followed.
Pvt. 1st Class James Barker, Sgt. Paul Cortez, Pvt. 1st Class Jesse Spielman and Pvt. 1st Class Bryan Howard received sentences ranging from 27 months to 110 years, with the possibility of parole in 10 years in the most severe cases.
They were convicted and sentenced in a military court. On Monday, as the penalty phase of his trial begins, Green might become the first former U.S. soldier to face the death penalty for war crimes before a civilian court.
The reason for the distinction: Green was discharged from the military before his crimes came to light.
When the killings became public in 2006, the Iraqi public was enraged and some Iraqi officials demanded that American soldiers accused of crimes against civilians face prosecution in Iraqi courts.
U.S. military and civilian officials condemned the attack and vowed to bring those responsible to justice.




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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 11th 2009, 09:10 PM

I think what he and the other soldiers did was horrible, don't get me wrong, and it does need to be punished. At the same time, I think that due to the very nature of the military, the training, and the ideals enforced, greatly increase the chance of this happening.
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 01:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert View Post
I think what he and the other soldiers did was horrible, don't get me wrong, and it does need to be punished. At the same time, I think that due to the very nature of the military, the training, and the ideals enforced, greatly increase the chance of this happening.
Other people went through that same ordeal and didn't rape anyone. Envirvonment contributes, yes, but a rapist is a rapist. No good person regardless of how they were trained in the army would do this.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 02:11 AM

basic social pyschology would disagree
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 02:20 AM

I remember reading about this when it first came out. :-( I still find it horrible.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 02:26 AM

He IS a monster, its terrible what he did. Him being in the military and in harsh conditions is no excuse. He deserved that "Guilty" and I hope he gets the death penalty.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 03:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert View Post
basic social pyschology would disagree
I'm guessing you'd say that violent videogames are the basis for all murders, too, right? But regular people are not affected by such. You have to have the thoughts and motives to begin with, whether they're pushed in the back of your mind or not. Because I don't know about you, but I would not rape a child regardless of how tough my training was because I have no desire to rape a child. How come every single soldier didn't run around killing and raping families then?


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 03:19 AM

Yes, it's horrible, but it's actually not that uncommon in the military.We just don't hear about it that often. It is horrible, but he shouldn't get the death penalty. No one should get the death penalty.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 03:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey View Post
Yes, it's horrible, but it's actually not that uncommon in the military.We just don't hear about it that often. It is horrible, but he shouldn't get the death penalty. No one should get the death penalty.
Even if we don't hear about it often, he's the one they caught, the one brought to our attention. For some things, I believe death is absolutely justifiable and well-deserved.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 03:48 AM

Quote:
"All of my buddies were getting killed over there. My lieutenant got his face blown off. ... George Bush and Dick Cheney ought to be the ones that are arrested."
Then don't join the war, ass hole. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that wars are brutal.

I don't care if he's in the army and war has deranged him, or if he can walk on water, even. What he did was wrong and he deserves what he gets.





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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 03:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout View Post
I'm guessing you'd say that violent videogames are the basis for all murders, too, right? But regular people are not affected by such. You have to have the thoughts and motives to begin with, whether they're pushed in the back of your mind or not. Because I don't know about you, but I would not rape a child regardless of how tough my training was because I have no desire to rape a child. How come every single soldier didn't run around killing and raping families then?
First of all, I'd like to say that I'm not defending him. I don't agree with what he did, regardless of circumstances.

However, do you know anything about psychology? Humans aren't as powerful as we like to think we are. It's very possible to alter the way someone thinks and their morals. Remember from history class how in the past people used to think of black people as property? And now how many people think that that is very wrong and crucify people who are racist? It used to be generally accepted that whites were better than blacks because that's what people were taught. It's very easy to twist someone's morals. There's no set of morals that people are born with; it is how they grew up and the environment they live in that will define their morals.

That wasn't a great example... however it can be possible to completely change the way someone thinks even if it wasn't the way they were raised.

Also, violent video games are nowhere near similar to the army. That's a silly comparison. Now, I do agree with you that there usually would have to be the desire to rape a child in the first place, but who do you mean by "regular people"? Who is "regular"? Just because someone is attracted to children doesn't make them a bad person. They can't help who they're attracted to, they just choose their actions. However, if put through the right psychological stress or mental illness then the person could not realize the effects of their actions.

That was really all over the place.... sorry about that. Anyway, in conclusion about this guy.... I don't actually know what to think. It's similar to when people have psychotic disorders that make them kill someone but the killer really couldn't have controlled his or herself. It wasn't really the person's fault, but at the same time they caused someone else's death.... crap. Now I'm confused. I guess it's somewhere in between manslaughter and murder. I guess for this bastard I don't have enough information. If he was in the right mind then he should be charged fully with his actions as if he weren't a solider and he were in his own country when the crime happened. However, if he wasn't in the right mind and there's actually evidence of that, manslaughter and whatnot.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 05:21 AM

I can comprehend how being in war could be psychologically damaging enough to make someone murder people, but rape? How does that make sense? I haven't studied psychology so maybe there is an explanation, but to me it seems like he's just using the fact that he's a soldier for pity.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 08:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout View Post
I'm guessing you'd say that violent videogames are the basis for all murders, too, right? But regular people are not affected by such. You have to have the thoughts and motives to begin with, whether they're pushed in the back of your mind or not. Because I don't know about you, but I would not rape a child regardless of how tough my training was because I have no desire to rape a child. How come every single soldier didn't run around killing and raping families then?
There's no real evidence to suggest violent video games cause more violent behaviour. I mean there's some correlation, but no evidence of causation, as far as I'm aware. However basic social psychology suggests things like deindividualisation, roles, and in-groups/out-groups, can allow normal, and even good people, to do he most horrible of things.

No, not every soldier is, circumstances are different for everybody. And I'm not saying this man specifically is a good man, I don't know him, he may not be. What I'm saying is that due to the nature of the military, you really can't be suprised - its basically asking for it to happen from time to time.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/oct04/goodbad.html This doesn't really cover everything, but it has some stuff.

My point wasn't not punish him, just I feel its important to highlight its an increased problem due to the military, because I think its important. You all personally are capable of horrid vile things in the right circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by star_crossd View Post
Even if we don't hear about it often, he's the one they caught, the one brought to our attention. For some things, I believe death is absolutely justifiable and well-deserved.
Who gives you the right to kill someone? How is killing someone going to achieve or fix anything? Its also not much of a punishment really, nor did the other guys get the death penalty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khadra View Post
I can comprehend how being in war could be psychologically damaging enough to make someone murder people, but rape? How does that make sense? I haven't studied psychology so maybe there is an explanation, but to me it seems like he's just using the fact that he's a soldier for pity.
Murder, but not rape? I personally would prefer not to get murdered if I had to choose between the two.

But its not about war bein psychologically damaging in a mental illness sense.

Also, to be fair, me mentionning the military is independant of him blaming them. The reasons he gives are poor.
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 03:21 PM

Ahh this is really horrible, i think he is a monster.

Quote:
I think that due to the very nature of the military, the training, and the ideals enforced, greatly increase the chance of this happening.

-
And my brother has been in the army,for a long time now.
And has been to iraq and other war areas, and i have no doubt he's seen some horrible things, But he would never think of doing anything half as bad as that.

As i recall, weren't the army sent to Iraq to free them of dictatorship, And make there life all the better. Not to go over and rape them, then kill there family.

And i dont think at any point during training are they told it's alright to rape innoccent people.

xx






   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 03:39 PM

And again, my mind is boggled by the human race.
It's a despicable thing he has done, personally, I've never really agreed with the death penalty, except for repeat offenders. I'm more for it for one off rape than one off murder though. However, acts like this deserve punishment, not death in my eyes, but a long prison sentence, devoid of company and all luxuries.

What I'd like to know, is why they did this. What made them want to kill, to rape. Was it the sight of death, and destruction? I'd like to know how weak you have to be to succumb to this kind of action.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 05:13 PM

Pig. Git. This is why we shouldn't have a military. It makes people who might otherwise have been a police officer or a teacher into a prisoner guilty of conspiracy, rape and murder. This is sickening, and he should be left to rot in prison.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 05:56 PM

Eh, disgusting. It's just crazy how someone can turn so insane. He is a monster. Death penalty? No, let him suffer in jail with no comforts and no contact with anybody.

Death would be the easy way out. He doesn't deserve the easy way out.
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 06:00 PM

You people are surprised? This is war, so many people forget basic human rights and descend into basic human instincts. I mean seriously, think 1945, Russian soldiers in Berlin.
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 06:07 PM

I don't think there's any excuse for what he did.
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 06:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by danni182x View Post
And my brother has been in the army,for a long time now.
And has been to iraq and other war areas, and i have no doubt he's seen some horrible things, But he would never think of doing anything half as bad as that.

As i recall, weren't the army sent to Iraq to free them of dictatorship, And make there life all the better. Not to go over and rape them, then kill there family.

And i dont think at any point during training are they told it's alright to rape innoccent people.

xx
ok, let me clarify a few things. I don't know this guy, I don't know if he personally is a twat, or if he is normally a good moral guy. It wasn't directly about him, it just it made me think about how social conditions can cause good people to do the most horrible things. And a comment about how the military install lots of the right kinda conditions to make a person dissociate from their moral good self. It doesn't mean they were nessecarily ordered to do bad things by the military.

And yes, lots of people go to war, and don't do these things (though they do kill people, including civilian, albiet unintentionally), but I figure different people need different situations to push them that far sometimes.

But seriously just on the concept 'Good people can do the most horrible things in the right situations', there is plenty of evidence for it. Look at Milgram's electric shock study. He got a bunch of educated normal American men to administer electric shocks to another person (shocks weren't actually given, but the person was an actor) even when the other was screaming in pain. These men were objecting to it, but they continued on with the encouragement of the experimenter.

There's lots of things like this, and more relevant to the news story, like Zimbardo's prison study, but I'm not going to use TH for my social psychology revision lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostlyheartbeat View Post
And again, my mind is boggled by the human race.
It's a despicable thing he has done, personally, I've never really agreed with the death penalty, except for repeat offenders. I'm more for it for one off rape than one off murder though. However, acts like this deserve punishment, not death in my eyes, but a long prison sentence, devoid of company and all luxuries.

What I'd like to know, is why they did this. What made them want to kill, to rape. Was it the sight of death, and destruction? I'd like to know how weak you have to be to succumb to this kind of action.
Not that weak, go look up the Milgram study I mentionned above.

This has loads on Milgram, but Milgram is about obedience, but still shows social influence http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/is...1/milgram.html

And some stuff about deindividualisation here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation

(If wiki isnt good enough, I'll go find something else)
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 07:53 PM

I know a soldier who, when over fighting the war, would (with his "buddies" <-his word, not mine) call the homes of families and threaten to kill them all. Yes, my opinion of him change and I did lose respect for him. War changes a person, sure. But he had not an ounce of remorse.

What this soldier did is even less forgivable.



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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 08:42 PM

The military should do more Evaluations on the soldiers to determine whether they should continue fighting.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 12th 2009, 11:11 PM

I entirely agree with Zack and Jessie.

Blowing up their schools and hospitals and so forth is not bad enough. Let's emotionally scar them, and kill them for no reason too! (Please note sarcasm)



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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 16th 2009, 07:01 AM

To answer the soldiers question, yes, I do think you are a monster.




   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 16th 2009, 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostlyheartbeat View Post
What I'd like to know, is why they did this. What made them want to kill, to rape. Was it the sight of death, and destruction? I'd like to know how weak you have to be to succumb to this kind of action.
There is a limitless list of possible reasons for why they did what they did, there's no one single magical answer that will answer your question. It'd be wonderful if there was, however, there isn't.

As for the part about calling them "weak", I'd suppose then that you'd call the participants of the Milgram Prison Study and Stanford Prison Study to also be weak too? After all, they allowed, from their view, the person to get shocked with some amount of electricity while hearing their screams over and over again. So, they must have been so very weak, right? Wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout
Other people went through that same ordeal and didn't rape anyone. Envirvonment contributes, yes, but a rapist is a rapist. No good person regardless of how they were trained in the army would do this.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that even though 10 people undergo the same training and face the same environmental conditions during their training, do you think that all 10 faced the same environmental conditions before their training? I won't take a psychological approach to this, but rather a statistical one. 10 people, a rather low number for people training in the army so let's use it as a sample of the larger population. All 10 presumably are at least 18 years old. Let's say for arguments sake, their average age is 22, a rather arbitrary number. Pick 21, 23, whatever. However, for 22 years of their life, do you honestly think that they'd have undergone the exact same experiences? Look at the statistical probability. It's next to none. Sure, they'd have been around for 9/11, however, were all 10 of them facing the same environmental conditions when they heard/saw 9/11 in progress? Doubtful.

So, it's reasonable to say that all 10 are entering the army with completely different backgrounds. Now for the psychological view, all 10 face the same environmental conditions during their army training. But, do all 10 perceive it the same, do they react the same? Doubtful. Perhaps someone gives a rather crude joke that deals with rape. Do all 10 also laugh at the joke or is there at least one of them that finds it rather foul and hurtful? Chances are there is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout
I'm guessing you'd say that violent videogames are the basis for all murders, too, right? But regular people are not affected by such. You have to have the thoughts and motives to begin with, whether they're pushed in the back of your mind or not. Because I don't know about you, but I would not rape a child regardless of how tough my training was because I have no desire to rape a child. How come every single soldier didn't run around killing and raping families then?
Define what you seem to consider "regular". Nobody in this world is 100% normal. Anyone who claims someone is or claims that they are, I tend to disregard for a simple reason of them spewing horseshit.

You cannot make an accurate judgment about how you would be in a situation you have zero first-hand experience with. I won't list the amount of biases and such you're committing with this but to name a few: Lake Wobegon effect, fundamental attribution error plus Jones & Harris (1967) theory regarding this, confirmation bias, wishful thinking, etc... . However, your obvious immense lack of knowledge regarding psychology, especially social psychology is astounding and rather comical when you attempt to address an issue heavily dealing with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khadra
I can comprehend how being in war could be psychologically damaging enough to make someone murder people, but rape? How does that make sense? I haven't studied psychology so maybe there is an explanation, but to me it seems like he's just using the fact that he's a soldier for pity.
That makes no sense. I don't understand how you seem willing to accept the possibility that war can make someone murder people and have no problem with that, yet you seem so puzzled when it comes to rape. Your reasoning implies that murder is more or less "meh, no big deal" whereas rape is "ZOMG, WTF in the blue hell!?!?!". To me, they're not that big of difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGE
The military should do more Evaluations on the soldiers to determine whether they should continue fighting.


Ah, something a bit more reasonable. Yes, they do infact conduct studies involving evaluations, especially since the year 2000 (this is regarding only Canada, I'm unsure on the US but I'll assume it's roughly the same year) when Romeo Delaire (Lt. something, forget his exact ranking) was one of the leading individuals that helped get the Canadian Government (in 2000) to recognize PTSD as a disorder requiring disorder pention. Since then the amount of research and consequently the amount of evaluations for soldiers has sky-rocketed. It isn't ideal, however, it is far more than what it was before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danni182x
And my brother has been in the army,for a long time now.
And has been to iraq and other war areas, and i have no doubt he's seen some horrible things, But he would never think of doing anything half as bad as that.

As i recall, weren't the army sent to Iraq to free them of dictatorship, And make there life all the better. Not to go over and rape them, then kill there family.

And i dont think at any point during training are they told it's alright to rape innoccent people.


You're not in your brother's head, therefore, you cannot accurately know what he thinks. So that part of your post is dismissed as being nonsense.

You may know more about the specifics of their training than I do, however, I agree, they probably aren't told to rape innocent people. Over-looking your sarcasm, they may not be told to do so, however, to some, what do you think may be the perceived notion that they get? Take a look at the case of Timothy McVeigh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh). Briefly, he was a US soldier, served in multiple wars and before his training and service, he was wonderful, nice, etc... . Afterwards, he was a bomber in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing.
He did it out of an act of revenege against the US government specifically due to what went on during the war.
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 17th 2009, 10:17 PM

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Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
That makes no sense. I don't understand how you seem willing to accept the possibility that war can make someone murder people and have no problem with that, yet you seem so puzzled when it comes to rape. Your reasoning implies that murder is more or less "meh, no big deal" whereas rape is "ZOMG, WTF in the blue hell!?!?!". To me, they're not that big of difference.
You misunderstood. I wasn't saying one was worse than the other. I meant that I don't see how being in the army would give someone the urge to rape people, as it seems more of a sexual thing than a violent thing. I also never said I didn't have a problem with him murdering people, I just said I can understand why maybe he would have done it.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 17th 2009, 11:23 PM

Rape has been used throughout history to degrade, humiliate, and have control and power over victims, both in normal society, and in war.
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 18th 2009, 12:16 AM

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Originally Posted by Khadra View Post
You misunderstood. I wasn't saying one was worse than the other. I meant that I don't see how being in the army would give someone the urge to rape people, as it seems more of a sexual thing than a violent thing. I also never said I didn't have a problem with him murdering people, I just said I can understand why maybe he would have done it.
Rape is not done always for sex. It's a form of showing domination, creating humiliation, causing physical damage, etc... . In some respects, it's closer to a form of torture than simply shooting a man in the head.
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 18th 2009, 03:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khadra View Post
You misunderstood. I wasn't saying one was worse than the other. I meant that I don't see how being in the army would give someone the urge to rape people, as it seems more of a sexual thing than a violent thing. I also never said I didn't have a problem with him murdering people, I just said I can understand why maybe he would have done it.
Well think about it. Rape is more about power than sex. And you take this guy, a soldier, who every day is forced to go out and put his life on the line for something he probably doesn't agree with. He had very little freedom and so wanted to feel in control.

And unfortunately this was his outlet.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 18th 2009, 01:04 PM

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Originally Posted by Invert View Post
I think what he and the other soldiers did was horrible, don't get me wrong, and it does need to be punished. At the same time, I think that due to the very nature of the military, the training, and the ideals enforced, greatly increase the chance of this happening.

As much as I hate to say, I do agree. My brother is in the Marine Corps and some of the things I hear him say do tend to scare me a bit and after hearing about this story it really got me thinking about what really does happen over there. But of course, I look up to my brother and I have a very strong doubt that he would ever do this sort of thing because he would most likely be the guy to beat someone like that within inches of their life.

These type of people sicken me and I do believe that it's people, like this "Steven Green" character, are the ones giving the bad name to our troops.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 28th 2009, 02:28 PM

There's no way this is justifiable. Rape is bad enough, murder is worse... There's got to be some brain cell in this guy that told him war would be brutal...

and as for his "poor training"...They NEVER train/tell you that it's perfectly acceptable to rape and murder innocent civilians. The military is a respectable and honorable service and this is only degrading its image...
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 28th 2009, 03:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Concrete Girl View Post
Then don't join the war, ass hole. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that wars are brutal.

I don't care if he's in the army and war has deranged him, or if he can walk on water, even. What he did was wrong and he deserves what he gets.

Pardon, but most of the people who sign for the military don't sign to fight. Most sign because it is the only job in this world that is guarenteed to pay you no matter how shitty the economy is.

I am not saying that what Green did was right. No matter who it is, or what you stand for, there is no excuse for rape or murder.

It bothers me however, that it would be tried before a civilian criminal court rather than a JAG.Technically, since Green's actions are a violation of the Military Code of Conduct, and since they were committed during a time of war in a war zone, he should be tried as a soldier. "Once a soldier, always a soldier."


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 28th 2009, 05:23 PM

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Originally Posted by JoJoWildHorse View Post
Pardon, but most of the people who sign for the military don't sign to fight. Most sign because it is the only job in this world that is guarenteed to pay you no matter how shitty the economy is.
"
Do you have statistics of this or anything? Probably 90% of the soldiers I know joined the army because they want to help America and things such as that. Not for the money... that's a lot of effort for some money. While some do it for that, I don't think majority do.



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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 28th 2009, 06:04 PM

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Originally Posted by JoJoWildHorse View Post
Pardon, but most of the people who sign for the military don't sign to fight. Most sign because it is the only job in this world that is guarenteed to pay you no matter how shitty the economy is.
That's quite a hefty statement. Do you have any sources to back that up, ideally a nice set of numbers from a reliable source that agrees with what you've claimed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoJoWildHorse View Post
I am not saying that what Green did was right. No matter who it is, or what you stand for, there is no excuse for rape or murder.
So if there's no excuse for murder, then the SWAT team, police and such shouldn't shoot a criminal who is about to kill two dozen people? It's not "allowed" to kill one person in order to save 100,000 people?
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - May 31st 2009, 09:34 AM

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Originally Posted by JoJoWildHorse View Post
Pardon, but most of the people who sign for the military don't sign to fight. Most sign because it is the only job in this world that is guarenteed to pay you no matter how shitty the economy is.
I see where your coming from on this point, about 10 guys in my RSP unit joined up for this reasons along these lines.
Sadly California is Over its Quota for Guard recruits so its not as much of a sure thing anymore.
But no I don't know of any official studies, just what I have seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
So if there's no excuse for murder, then the SWAT team, police and such shouldn't shoot a criminal who is about to kill two dozen people? It's not "allowed" to kill one person in order to save 100,000 people?
Uhm are you trying to get a fight out of someone? Obviously that is not what she means, I see your point but I think you are arguing for arguments sake

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fictional View Post
Pig. Git. This is why we shouldn't have a military. It makes people who might otherwise have been a police officer or a teacher into a prisoner guilty of conspiracy, rape and murder. This is sickening, and he should be left to rot in prison.
Fact. Not all military personal end up in jail
Fact. Police Officer and Teacher are jobs in the Military.
As long as people have opinions of their own, there will be a military in place to protect it.
But yes he should rot in prison, death would be to easy an escape for one like him. Its people like him that make the military out to be some sort of ravenous beast.

Last edited by Gitler; May 31st 2009 at 10:07 AM. Reason: Ahh curse you poorly worded retorts
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - June 2nd 2009, 01:37 AM

A grownman raping a 14 YEAR OLD GIRL (So the military made him a pedophile or something? he's a threat to society anyway.) is horrible no matter what. It's disgusting that he blamed someone else for his actions. He deserves terrible things to happen to him, then hopefully he gets the death penalty.



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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - June 2nd 2009, 01:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Gitler View Post
Uhm are you trying to get a fight out of someone? Obviously that is not what she means, I see your point but I think you are arguing for arguments sake
No I'm simply giving an example of to counter her statement. She didn't give a statement along the lines of "no murder except for soldiers, etc...". You could argue that her statement had a rather obvious meaning to it, however, I feel it's better to give a possible counter as opposed to simply nodding and going with an assumption that she means what you think she means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfemilie
A grownman raping a 14 YEAR OLD GIRL (So the military made him a pedophile or something? he's a threat to society anyway.) is horrible no matter what. It's disgusting that he blamed someone else for his actions. He deserves terrible things to happen to him, then hopefully he gets the death penalty.
Why do you believe he should get the death sentence in addition to whatever other punishment he gets? Rape is a rather horrid crime, however, does it really deserve the death sentence after you have already given him punishment? If so, why not just skip the punishment and go straight to the death sentence? Why even bother with the death sentence in the first place? The initial punishment presumably is meant to serve as correcting him or giving the proper punishment, but then all that work is contradicted by the fact that you kill him. I see no point to doing bother, either one or the other, both or none (none is a possibility, just one that probably won't occur for rape).
   
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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - June 2nd 2009, 04:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoJoWildHorse View Post
Pardon, but most of the people who sign for the military don't sign to fight. Most sign because it is the only job in this world that is guarenteed to pay you no matter how shitty the economy is.
I can see where you're coming from, but joining the military and not expecting to fight is like joining the diving team and not expecting to get wet. Everyone who joins, regardless of the branch, is trained first and foremost as a rifleman in BCT. Even the marching band could hold their own in an attack if they had to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fictional View Post
Pig. Git. This is why we shouldn't have a military. It makes people who might otherwise have been a police officer or a teacher into a prisoner guilty of conspiracy, rape and murder. This is sickening, and he should be left to rot in prison.
The military didn't do anything to him that wasn't already wrong with him. Don't make irrational claims that the military churns out monsters, because it doesn't.

He was already fucked up, the stress of being thousands of miles from home around people who half the time want you dead, was the catalyst that sent him over the edge.

And to be clear, I'm not defending him, I'm defending the military and all of the normal people that are in it. So please, point the fingers in the right damn direction. At him.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - June 2nd 2009, 05:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfemilie View Post
A grownman raping a 14 YEAR OLD GIRL (So the military made him a pedophile or something? he's a threat to society anyway.) is horrible no matter what. It's disgusting that he blamed someone else for his actions. He deserves terrible things to happen to him, then hopefully he gets the death penalty.
Military isn't making child sex predators.


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Re: 'You ... Think I'm a Monster,' Soldier Said - June 3rd 2009, 06:46 PM

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Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
So if there's no excuse for murder, then the SWAT team, police and such shouldn't shoot a criminal who is about to kill two dozen people? It's not "allowed" to kill one person in order to save 100,000 people?
War is war. What happens happens. I do not condone the rape and murder of a girl and her family, but when you're being shot at in a combat zone, I'm sure that you would shoot back at whoever the bullets are coming from.


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