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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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UK out of EU - June 24th 2016, 02:33 PM

It's official. The UK is out of the EU and the stock market is crashing.
As usual Scotland is ignored but that's old news.

Thoughts?


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Re: UK out of EU - June 24th 2016, 02:50 PM

I'm beyond furious. I've repeated my political views in debate after debate and won't go into it here, but I am not at all pleased with the result- especially after Nigel Farage's comments about the NHS and that infamous 350 million.



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Re: UK out of EU - June 24th 2016, 03:04 PM

I've been angry all day. I hate the fact that the focus for the leave campaign was on blaming the immigrants (or it felt that way anyway), and it seems like everyone has forgotten about the economy. The pound has dropped in value, banks shares have dropped, big companies want to move out. And I personally feel that we can't survive on small businesses, we have little to trade and at this rate, no-one to trade with. Not to mention that now David Cameron has resigned, we'll be stuck with either Boris or Nigel as Prime minister...and that's scary given that they want to privatise the NHS. I pity those who believed the scaremongering as they may find they are worse off.

As for Scotland, originally, I didn't want them to leave the UK. I couldn't imagine a UK without Scotland. But now I actually want Scotland to have another referendum on leaving the UK, as I think they will be much better off.


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Re: UK out of EU - June 24th 2016, 03:31 PM

I'm not really sure how to feel. In terms of economics, its already negatively affecting the stock market, but that will probably stabilize... Immigration won't be as easy, which I find disappointing... But the political side of the EU won't take precedent over the UK's policies, which is probably good. It probably won't be very good from a environmental perspective because I bet Brussels is more progressive on the environment than Britain is. Cameron resigned as PM (which is good, right?). Also, Scotland will probably leave the UK to rejoin the EU. The rest of the EU might fall like dominoes now.
I can't really relate to this situation, but America is in NAFTA and the WTO (and soon TPP), which are both terrible for us and had a large part in destroying my hometown (at least NAFTA did). However, those are strictly trade organizations, and they don't have policy control like the EU does.
One thing I find alarming about this is who supports it. Anti-immigration obviously had a large part in it, but I imagine it would be tougher on an island nation to take in refugees... as opposed to the US, which COULD say, "hey, this land over here is uninhabited, nobody will bother you, here's some provisions, don't kill anyone." But Putin and Trump both support it, which is a huge red flag. According to a UK poll, the following voters think these things are bad, and these are the stats for leave compared to remain: Multiculturalism 81% (remain is 19%), social liberalism 80%, feminism 74%, the green movement 78%, globalization 69%, internet 71% (lol), capitalism 51%, and immigration... 80%. Brexit is also supported by the American Conservative site RedState, which to me, is horrible. If anyone knows anything about American conservativism, its fucking out of control. The people on RedState aren't stupid by any means, which is why I frequent it (also to avoid echo-chambering myself with liberal sites) but their morals are warped and their minds brainwashed.
I would probably lean towards Remain based on some of the people who support Leave. But my God, I hate NAFTA and the WTO, so I can understand the perspective of being pissed about the actual trade issues.
As it turns out, Nigel Farage, head of the UK Independence Party, blatantly lied that the National Health Services would save 350M a week by leaving. And that was one of their major advertisements.


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Re: UK out of EU - June 24th 2016, 05:43 PM

I'm beyond livid. 75% of young people have voted in and it's the over 65s who voted out. I feel betrayed by the older people, they've ruined our future. The pound has plummeted, businesses are planning on moving their investments out of Britain. The only people pleased with this decision are Donald Trump, Boris Johnson and Vladimir Putin. And now David Cameron has gone, Boris could become PM. A future led by Trump, Johnson and Putin is not one I want to be a part of


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Re: UK out of EU - June 24th 2016, 07:15 PM

I'm livid. I'm scared. I am 110% done with this bullshit country. I am however glad that London voted to remain (as well as a couple of other big English cities, I'm pretty sure Manchester and Liverpool voted to remain) but we get lumped in with the rest of the country.
I am ashamed to be both British and English, I do not want to be associated like that as long as this continues.
People claim we have our country back but from who? There's still shitty people in charge of us so who exactly have we taken this shithole back from?

I know people who voted out. And all I can do is constantly think that they are no less than muppets like Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage- who lied to their faces but they took it in hook, line and sinker. But no, they say they avoided David Cameron's lies while being fucking gullible themselves.

In some weird and twisted way, I'm gutted David Cameron has resigned (but in a way, he's fucking gone! woo!) because I've heard shit about legal binding and how this referendum is a fancy opinion poll and all the government has to do is ignore the 52% of leave voters. It is up to the decisions of the politicians, but I guess if they do choose to overturn that then people are going to be up in arms either way.
Tory members are going to be voting for someone to replace David Cameron and I am wishing, hoping and praying that they do not pick Boris Johnson. God, I even said to my mum that even if they voted in George Osborne I'd be glad that it ain't Boris.

My Skype group chat blew up with messaged because we have one friend who voted out and wants us to celebrate with him because of the referendum. And he said he refrained himself for starting arguments on my Facebook posts which has angered me even more. My best friend has no idea what to even say because she's not interested in politics and it confuses her. Another friend ranted on the chat and I know another isn't happy with the results either (I'm pretty sure him and the rest of his college class turned against our friend because he voted leave, soooo kudos to them?). Soooo, our friend has had a part in not only fucking up mine and my friends' future but his as well, so big round of applause to him. Real fucking smart.

I don't blame Scotland if they hold another referendum to leave the UK, get out while you can. I wish London and the other areas that voted remain could come with you.

Apparently other countries are wanting to follow suit and this is exactly what Putin wants. The destruction of the EU so he can swoop in and fuck shit up more, let's not even get started on Trump. This is a wake up call for those across the pond to realise that if this shit can happen to the UK then the US could also find themselves in trouble.

No wonder why aliens don't want to visit the planet.




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Re: UK out of EU - June 24th 2016, 08:35 PM

I believed the pound would fall in value, and markets would suffer in the short term at least. That's what risk does. That was obvious to anyone who knows the most basic economics even just from reading the papers. I'm even prepared if the uncertainty lasts a bit longer than just "short-term".

House prices will fall. This doesn't advantage me in any way, but that's not the point. Most people who voted leave, get the point. The bottom quarter of the population have been squeezed like a turd. They don't care if the wealthiest people and businesses in the country lose billions. They do care if they themselves lose money though, and there is an argument to be made that if the wealthiest individuals lose money, then the so called "trickle-down effect" will also dry up.

But perhaps it is also time to stop being so dependent on "the wealthiest" and their gracious "trickle-down effect", and be independent instead. THIS is in fact what modern capitalism is partially built upon. And what democracy is built upon. Democracy advocates a relatively even distribution of power, NOT for the power to become ever more centralized within a certain privileged 1% of the population. Many people I know overlook the difference between capitalism and corporatism, and have no idea even what an oligarchy is.

The UK needs re-prioritize, and needs to start investing more in it's own people, instead of businesses. There's a subtle difference. Constantly importing labor from abroad, may make for a good business model by lowering costs for businesses, which is supposed to bring us cheaper products in supermarkets... but it defeats the purpose if many people are left without jobs as a consequence. Now there are arguments for and against, which I'm very well aware off and understand, but it's too much to write about. The present discontent among the population speaks for itself, and that's what I'm basing conclusions off... instead of the same arguments which get constantly circulated by people who like the sound of their own voice too much, and don't actually pay attention to what is happening.

I don't need to belong to the bottom quarter of the population to know that the economy, and politics, have been following harmful trends. This might have even benefited me, but I don't think just in the short term. I like to think as far ahead as I can push myself. Anyone who knows basic history, and perhaps sat down to think sometimes about these things, knows what centralization of power leads to eventually. Leads to revolution. My financial situation might be relatively decent, but it certainly isn't anywhere decent enough for me to weather the storm if the boat were to capsize. All I wanted from this vote is stability, and a continuing membership of the EU might have assured short, or even medium-term stability, but it did NOT look like a sustainable model to me in the long-term, because it was increasingly, yet gradually, centralizing power in Brussels among unelected leaders. This is not "propaganda", this is what it is. It is not a model which could be implemented in countries with a several hundred year cultural history of democracy, such as the UK. Perhaps it may work, in countries like Poland, Italy, Germany even, Spain perhaps (all countries with dictatorships in modern history). France maybe not. It's about culture. People in some cultures are more used to authoritarian leadership, and power being centralized in their society, and see mostly nothing wrong with it, despite historical evidence to the contrary. That is certainly not the case in the UK, although the fact that the leave/remain votes were split 50/50 is worrying enough. It could symbolize a change in attitudes, and lack of understanding of what democracy actually means, or otherwise a lack of respect for democracy
(in my opinion also resonated by how strong "political correctness" has become), which would be even more worrying. But there are many more factors obviously. To many (probably most) people it was just fear of risk and uncertainty, which is understandable. I doubted myself a few times too.

This was not even about immigration to me. Perhaps in 2nd place, but still so far behind in 2nd place that it is almost irrelevant. Everything above, makes up about 90% of the reason why I voted leave. Immigration maybe 5%. I'm sure Eastern European states would greatly appreciate it if their governments let in several million Chinese laborers prepared to work at 25% the rate of the native population. No, they wouldn't appreciate it, and neither do many people in the UK appreciate similar actually being done to them.

It should by now be obvious what I voted for: leave.

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Re: UK out of EU - June 24th 2016, 08:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
According to a UK poll, the following voters think these things are bad, and these are the stats for leave compared to remain: Multiculturalism 81% (remain is 19%), social liberalism 80%, feminism 74%, the green movement 78%, globalization 69%, internet 71% (lol), capitalism 51%, and immigration... 80%.
What poll was that? I've seen all kinds of polls, some quoting over half of Muslims support stoning women to death for getting raped.

You know... lol. I'm skeptical. It may be true, like anything in theory may be true, but that doesn't make it true.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: UK out of EU - June 24th 2016, 11:16 PM

I don't even live in the UK but I'm from the UK and am quite disappointed in them. It seems like such a bad idea, and seeing as the prime minister is actually leaving it just further proves how bad it is. Most of the people who voted to leave are over 65 so it doesn't even affect them in the long term, whereas the people who wanted to stay were people it actually will affect for longer. The pound is falling, Northern Ireland is wanting to join the Republic of Ireland, Scotland is wanting to leave the UK, UK's trading with other countries is affected seeing as most of that was through the EU, why did people think it was a good idea? There was like one benefit, which didn't even happen and they lost several billion pounds (almost said dollars then )

I'm actually so annoyed at the UK at the moment. Also note that most of the information I have is just from the news over here and they might have some things wrong (we are the other side of the world), so please don't kill me


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Re: UK out of EU - June 25th 2016, 12:39 AM

If it's one thing that annoys me about the results of this referendum, it's people's attitudes. All I've seen since campaigning began is Remain spouting how 'could' be X percent worse off, using the death of an MP to further their campaign by blaming Brexiteers for her death when it was simply one loony guy who killed her and an OAP who tried to aid her, using Baroness Warsi another 'defector' when she was never part of Leave in the first place.. the list goes on. Then there was Leave who flapped around with this so-called £350 million a week tripe which had me questioning their mathematics skills because they clearly forgot to include the rebate into their calculations, and the constant yapping by Nigel Farage about immigration which caused the entire Leave campaign to come across like a bunch of self-righteous racist morons and thus, I listened to neither side and chose to conduct my own research into the history of both the EU and the UK and voted based off of my own findings and beliefs.

Whenever I look at my Facebook page all I see are what 'were' my friends saying how anyone who votes for Leave are (quoting one of them) 'selfish racist twats' and that Leave should be ashamed of themselves. I see them complaining about the older generation and how they're selfish because they didn't think about the future of younger generations.. but quite frankly did any young person even bother to actually ask those aged 50+ why they're voting out? It's all very well and good getting your panties in a twist because someone 'didn't think about you' but clearly this wasn't reciprocated by the attitude young people have when many have said 'they haven't got much longer to live with the decision anyway' is that really the kind of attitude we should be taking here?

When people look at this image, what do they see?



They see that England and Wales voted Leave whilst Scotland and Northern Island voted Remain. The problem here is that it's so easy to focus on percentages and such pretty colours and quickly pass judgement.The other problem is no one is clearly focusing on the actual figures.

Let's take Scotland for example.



It's so easy to focus on the 62% that voted Remain.. which is 642,869 votes more than the one million votes to Leave. Clearly not all of Scotland wants to be part of the EU as many seem think.. equally as much as it could be argued that although Wales had 824,572 votes to leave, Remain had 772,347. That's just an 82,225 difference considering Wales' turnout was 71.7%. All in all, the country as a whole was nearly 50-50. It's easy to point fingers and start demanding Irish unions, Scottish independence referendums or round 2 of EU referendums when things don't go the way we want them to, but I think the figures here show that when we go beyond the blue and yellow, beyond the percentages, people will be in favour of remaining and leaving, Scotland included.

As for the economy; people saying that we've lost access to 'free' trade cannot possibly be more wrong. Nothing in life is free. There is always a cost somewhere along the line. We paid billions for our EU membership, part of that membership meant having access to a common market, not a free one. The Euro is in decline and has slowly been heading towards stagnation for quite some time. The EU laws have desperately needed a reform and yet no EU leader seemed interested right up until just over half of its voters voted for leave which is quite saddening. The British economy has been in decline for quite some time now but it seems people haven't noticed the prices of our food or general goods going up with the 'occasional' living wage for those over 25 to gain a few extra pence per their pound in order to deal with inflation.

By the time Article 50 is complete, sure there will likely be a further rise to certain goods whilst a fall in other products, the pound exchange rates will rise and fall, and rise again. Economy isn't some kind of dust pan and brush where you can whip it out in the blink of an eye and brush up the pieces of a broken cup, things take time. We've been in a recession whilst in the EU, of course it'll happen when we're out. Leaving the EU has many benefits such as new trading partners, lower taxes on EU-applied goods in our own country, the ability to make our own legislation (for those who feel the Conservatives can now do whatever they want, unlike the EU where we can't vote for leaders, we can vote them out in the next general election!) and so on.

It should be noted that the one thing I have not yet mentioned here is immigration. Unlike what seems to be the norm where people believe that any if not all Leave voters are racist a-holes, not every person who has voted for Leave considered immigration to be one of their issues with being in the EU. Yes the migrant crisis is an issue but to be honest, it's not the picture that Nigel Farage paints where there's this apparent stream of migrants making a slow beeline for the UK. This just simply ins't happening. In as opposed to other countries such as Germany who've taken in staggering amounts, the UK promised to take in approximately 20,000 which is a measly amount in comparison. How on earth he came to this conclusion I don't know but I'm quite sure that no person is going to want to be willingly displaced from their home where they must make a trek over several hundreds of miles on foot whilst wondering when their next meal may be or if they have children, how they're going to feed them.

As for immigrants from other EU countries, I have absolutely no issue with them at all. Migration in any country is extremely important, especially for the UK. It cannot afford to cut itself off by closing its borders to people just across the pond when many of them bring a large amount of useful skills, knowledge and culture to the table. While people may say that there are approximately 300,000 migrants coming to the UK every year, I think if we checked up on every EU country, I'm left wonder how many British people were in their migration figures.

As for the Leave vote, if people look beyond the topics of economy, border control, immigration, legislation etc it should show that the UK is divided in its trust in the EU system. Out of the 33,551,983 votes, there was only a difference of 1,269,501 and so an almost 50-50 split. Of those who voted, it shows that they have lost their confidence in the EU in one way or another. Ultimately it has come down to who does the EU benefit the most. Gibraltar is a prime example of this. They're the most 'cut off' part of the UK and splitting from the EU will most certainly not benefit them. I would be in full favour of Spain taking joint control of the territory because it was painfully clear the EU benefits them, unlike many parts on the UK itself.

All in all, I voted Leave. I voted Leave because I feel what it originally stood for is slowly beginning to fail and I would rather get out of a sinking ship while I still can. I voted Leave because I have lost confidence in the EU. It's just a shame it has taken 'Brexit' to make EU leaders realise there is a problem that needs to be addressed. It's up to people how they view me. If they view me as some misguided, uneducated, ignorant racist then so be it, similar could be said of those who do not bother to take the time to find out why people voted Leave. Not everyone voted Leave because of immigration or to 'take back our borders', I know I didn't. I may have voted Leave but do not include me in that reasoning.

Finally, I apologise if people take offence to what I have written, opinions are always open to a variety of interpretation. Ok I'm done now.


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Re: UK out of EU - June 25th 2016, 02:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDF View Post
What poll was that? I've seen all kinds of polls, some quoting over half of Muslims support stoning women to death for getting raped.

You know... lol. I'm skeptical. It may be true, like anything in theory may be true, but that doesn't make it true.

.
This. Its from Democratic Underground, an American site, but a person who I assume is British based on their avatar is using a poll from "Lord Ashcroft Polls". I don't know who or what that is, but there's the poll. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027949740


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Re: UK out of EU - June 25th 2016, 08:19 AM

I'm from the UK and a little surprised as well as annoyed that they are now out from the EU. I really thought the UK would stay with the EU.


   
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Re: UK out of EU - June 25th 2016, 08:40 AM

Although I don't live in the U.K., I'm glad they are leaving the EU. It's most likely going to be difficult in the beginning but, is anything worthwhile easy at the start? The EU is a failing system. A system which is held up by the Northern European nations like the UK, Germany, and to an extent holland. They have to hold up the French, Spanish, Greek, and Italian people all the time. While the Greeks were off having a labor strike every other week, the Brits had to work hard and bail everyone out. How long could the UK do this for? For all those young voters who said remain and are criticizing the older generation, who the hell made you so superior to them? They voted. They have that right. I'm sure a lot of them have given large part of their lives to your country. You don't know anything other than the EU. I've seen people saying "the over 65 shouldn't be allowed to vote because they're gonna die soon anyway". What the hell? Do you not want democracy? It's disgusting. Without those over 65s, you don't have the great nation you have now. Show a little bit of respect please.
   
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Re: UK out of EU - June 25th 2016, 08:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
This. Its from Democratic Underground, an American site, but a person who I assume is British based on their avatar is using a poll from "Lord Ashcroft Polls". I don't know who or what that is, but there's the poll. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027949740
This topic might warrant a separate thread.

I think that the distrust of multiculturalism, social liberalism, feminism, the green movement, immigration, globalisation, and even capitalism all reflect on a distrust of the dominant political narrative.

I'm not sure I can word this right. I suppose this distrust follows a similar mechanism as for example stereotyping certain racial minorities does. Similarly, people stereotype "the green movement" as an integral part of the "liberal agenda" (that's what I've seen some people calling it)... and without much 2nd thought, label it as something "evil". But then, m
ost stereotypes are based on some truth/anecdotal evidence.

Part of the deciduous nature of politics is that it will hijack movements and ideologies which appear popular at the time, just so that their political party/leaders gain more momentum with the public. This is more of a quest for power to them, and less of a quest to "do what is right". I have no doubts that this is what has happened to left-wing politics.

And also, for that reason I do not doubt at all that there are a lot of opportunists seizing on the rising popularity of right-wing rhetoric right now, and effectively going down the same route and even spinning a few conspiracy theories. I just prefer this is done sooner than later... because the later you leave it, the more powerful and destabilizing the tremors will be. Every now and then there comes a regime change. It's better to just accept it, cut your losses, adapt, and remain relevant, instead of fighting it and potentially getting wiped out, making the opposition even more powerful in the process. If the change is managed on relatively good terms, as opposed to hurling abuse, calling names, and even getting violent during Trump rallies for example... then things will almost certainly be better than trying to stave off the change with force.

The only thing I don't understand in that poll... is distrust of the internet. This might have something to do with the NSA controversy, and stuff like Wikileaks (which isn't "the internet" per se, but to many older people who more often voted to leave, it is all the same).

.


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Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: UK out of EU - June 25th 2016, 10:59 AM

I have relatives who openly live off benefits, claiming that it's better than working. They haven't worked in 30 years, but they have benefits, council housing etc. They voted leave because they believe immigrants are coming to take jobs (even though they don't work and aren't looking for work), benefits and council housing. It's that mentality that I find it difficult to empathise with. Not to mention that my council benefited greatly from EU funding, and yet, my council voted to leave. It just looks like no-one is thinking about the economy, only focusing on the scaremongering about the immigrants. I can't get my head around it.


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Re: UK out of EU - June 25th 2016, 11:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchWelshWolf View Post
I have relatives who openly live off benefits, claiming that it's better than working. They haven't worked in 30 years, but they have benefits, council housing etc. They voted leave because they believe immigrants are coming to take jobs (even though they don't work and aren't looking for work), benefits and council housing. It's that mentality that I find it difficult to empathise with. Not to mention that my council benefited greatly from EU funding, and yet, my council voted to leave. It just looks like no-one is thinking about the economy, only focusing on the scaremongering about the immigrants. I can't get my head around it.
I only just found this 1 hour 30 minutes ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0

I don't like the animations in the film. They're a bit patronising and insulting. As if they're narrating to school children with 5 minute attention spans who need to be kept interested with a puppet show and exaggerated stereotypes... which has the opposite effect on me. Besides that... I'm behind probably 80% of what's in the film.

I agree with you. The types of people you talk about are annoying, and I've known people like that too. But they're not the majority who voted to leave. The stats are simple. The vote was split 50/50, yet 50% of the country isn't unemployed and on benefits.

This might sound so obvious that it might even come across as demeaning. It's not my intention. I'm just drawing attention to what stereotypes exist.

A person above me (Riviere) already mentioned this I think. People are labeling "Vote Leave" campaigners as racist lazy bigots, simply because they vote leave. I'm sick of it. If I were to focus on coming up with similar shit arguments about "vote stay", I could too. But... why? Just, why?

Just because there are certain people who are claiming benefits their whole lives and blaming migrants, and support leaving the EU... doesn't mean everyone who supports leaving the EU agrees with their mentality. I can't stand those types. Really. Nauseates me on a good day. Just because one nutcase supporting the leave campaign shot Jo Cox, doesn't mean everyone supporting the leave campaign agrees or sympathises with him. Most people do not.

A friend of mine made a laughable comparison which went something like this:

"You know what Hitler's favorite drink was? Coffee. You know what other people's favorite drink is coffee? The French. So... all French support Hitler. "


The context was different. We were criticizing conspiracy theories, but it applies here too.

These kinds of associations are just... painful.

I like a 2nd opinion, so after watching the youtube film I posted above, I searched the internet for arguments which could stand up to it, and I found almost none. Most of the "arguments"... it's just stereotyping and mudslinging, bad mouthing Thatcher... wtf even is the relevance of Thatcher?... besides it serving to be nothing else than an all-out assault on conservative politics. These people aren't even addressing any key points in the debate. Just ranting.

Too much noise. I can tolerate stereotypes to certain threshold, but if there is too much then I'm not even going to read beyond the first paragraph. And if the opening sentence, starts with a stereotype... I toss the article immediately. Relying predominantly on stereotypes to generate arguments coupled with veiled insults is the emblem of the worst kind of journalism.

I am very interested in knowing firm, opposing arguments to the film in the link I posted. But not based on stereotypes and insults.

.


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Last edited by BDF; June 25th 2016 at 11:42 AM.
   
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Re: UK out of EU - July 4th 2016, 05:20 PM

When the United Kingdom (or at least the majority of them) voted out, I was honestly surprised to hear that. I didn't have a single interest in this, nor did I voted at all because I'm on the fence on these things as well as I wouldn't believe my vote would do anything in a country with a high enough population. I get why people want to leave and I get why people want to remain, both sides would have good effects and negative effects it seems I believe (though don't take my word on that). I don't know which side is right when they're both equally... well, for lack of a better word... "Idiots"
But one thing that annoys me are is that how it seems a good number of people who voted remain are now pissed and practically bullying those who voted leave, claiming that they're racist bigots while the other side does the same back in the campaign before the poll day. I don't deal with asses who throw stereotypes utter *ullshit at each other, it really just disqualify their place in arguing.

Now, some of those I know of that voted leave did it to suppress immigration. They didn't like how the EU is controlling it, especially given the refugee crisis going on, and that they practically don't check who the hell they're letting in. Now rape events have occurred in EU countries such as Germany and Sweden, people who are... sensitive like myself to that sort of thing would vote leave without a doubt because Brexit promises to control Immigration but I'm not an idiot, voting leave is not the only way to say we want this situation controlled. Rebel against this EU's policy instead while remaining would be my way, but people these days are... idiots especially the fact that leaving the EU have other effects but people I know of seem to vote just because of Immigrant thing which is annoying and also bully those who voted remain, claiming that they actually want Immigrants to rape our females.

Anyway, enough of my blabbering on this thread. I personally believe this whole EU remain or leave is a mess, it feels... indirect because alot of people who voted don't seem to have the slightest clue what the effects are and give such reasons like the paragraph above to vote leave without considering the other effects leaving the EU will have. Why should ignorant people be allowed to vote on these things if they don't have a clue to what which side holds? Still, we still don't know if it's a good thing, Russia seems to want the UK to jump on its lap as they want us to buy their cheap oil.
I'm not a great debater but that's just my look on this previous event for the UK.
   
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