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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Islamic problems - July 18th 2016, 09:32 PM

I'm actually going to take a stand on this. I've tried to be "nice" and as subtle as I know how to be (which may not be much), with limited effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwp4znSQ3WM

I have posted his vids several times on this website. I happen to agree with most of what he says. Some videos he puts out are stupid/satirical, and it just isn't my style (tossing insults and people and calling names, etc.), but besides that I agree with most of his stuff.

I will list out the bullet points that stand out the most to me. I'm addressing this at the left wing. This thread is not about the problems in the right wing. That's a separate topic. Besides, there are barely any right wing supporters on the website to address, so I might as well be talking to myself then.
  • Western media spinning images of refugee children completely non representative of real statistics. I have seen this. Everyone has seen this, even if they're not aware of it because they lack the motivation to look up a few bar charts on the internet.
  • Blame games. Blaming anyone but the people directly responsible for the crimes. I've said this several times here. I believe in direct accountability. If someone punches me the face, it doesn't matter if they were already in a bad mood after a rough day. I don't care. They punched me, that's all that matters. If I punch them back, then I did it, because I chose to. Not because they punched me first. There's a difference. One admits responsibility, the 2nd deflects it onto other people. My method keeps things very simple, and makes most problems very easy to address, and very quickly. How in the actual fuck can people be advocating banning of trucks after the attack? This is like suing Nike for tripping over your own shoelaces: retarded. Do people really think trucks are more to blame, than Islamic extremism? If the answer is no, then why are they focusing on this? This is so devoid of any conscious rational thought... that I struggle to believe it. I'm not sure I do.
  • Similar to previous point (I digressed), we should be blaming the people who are responsible for the crimes, for the crimes. Not creating ever more complex mechanisms like political correctness for blaming other people, or ourselves for the crimes of others. Like blaming home-grown terrorism on problems in Muslim communities and social divides apparently caused by not enough money being put into those neighborhoods. This can also be blamed on so many Muslims being let into Europe in the first place. See? These arguments can easily be made far more complex, self-contradictory, and yet get fucking nowhere. They can be made so complex that nobody even understands them in the end. There's a much simpler approach. Blame home-grown terrorists, on the individuals directly responsible for spreading extremist interpretations of the ideology, and destroy these people with extreme prejudice. Lock them up for hate speech and inciting violence, or deport them. Laws exist, which need to be followed through on the streets, regardless of what damned social group we're dealing with. It's not fucking "racist" for example to arrest more black people, if those people committed crimes. NOW, the reasons why they committed those crimes, ought to be addressed, separately. I'm not saying ignore it, at all. All this applies to every person. White, black, Muslim, atheist or Christian. No difference. Can try and convince me that there is a difference, but I'm well equipped for this argument.
  • Failure to recognise demographic statistics. Empirical evidence. Correlations, between ethnic backgrounds, political views, crime rates, poverty, and religious extremism. This is so simple to understand. All the research is done. All people have to do is know basic maths from primary school, and look at a bar chart. Either people don't do it, or do, and see statistics which don't align with their personal views and blame this on "conspiracy theories", or simply ignore it and try to forget about it altogether by playing more candy crush to take their minds of it.
I have not set aside the time to analyze the Quran myself, and see for myself if all those statements that get circulated are true. Till then, I hold back on commenting. Once I do this, and I see, and make my own mind up, that's it. Lots of 2nd hand sources have pointed out verses in the Quran which promote extremism and violence, and I doubt all those sources are working together to spin some global anti-Islam conspiracy theory. I doubt it's coincidence that most of them say similar things. But nonetheless, until I see for myself, I won't comment.

Christianity (on which Western civilization is founded) also had it's violent, barbaric past. Then it reformed. Wars happened, people died. If Islam needs to undergo a similar process to catch up to the 21st century, I understand. This is naturally how most civilizations progress/evolve. But to allow, and furthermore encourage, their problems to overflow into Europe, is a catastrophic plan. Ideally, no Western nation should have ever set foot in those countries. They are actually making progress, at their own pace, without our military intervention. I've seen it. We should have let the dictators hold their positions. If Russia felt like going down that path, let them. Their loss. You can't "teach" people democracy in the space of 10 years. If you give them democracy, they just follow another nutcase who this time scapegoats all his country's problems on the "Western invaders" who abolished the previous oppressive regime. Too much bullshit, too much mess. Let those people sort their own problems out.

I do not advocate locking down borders, unless we're talking about national emergencies. But I do, absolutely believe people from certain parts of the world, need to be vetted, assessed, even given psychometric tests, to assess whether or not it's a good idea to let them in. Because, demographic statistics, clearly show that some parts of the word, are hotbeds of Islamic terrorism. Some parts of the world, are rife with human trafficking and drugs smuggling. In some parts of the world, "honor killings" are considered to be something illegal, yet at the same time excusable and forgivable (https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/07/p...-honor-killing). These are not "isolated cases" which don't reflect on the majority. No. All these things, are correlated with geographical regions, religious beliefs and culture. These are all facts, and these things have to be controlled. Open borders do not work. Same as leaving the door open to your house for anyone to come in, doesn't work. It is completely irrational. Same as closing the borders entirely is also completely irrational. That's what Stalin did with the iron curtain. All I've ever advocated was a balanced common sense approach, not motivated by fanatical political ideals.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Islamic problems - July 18th 2016, 11:06 PM

His video reminds me of post 9/11 in the US.


Anyway, I remember a debate on Teenhelp back in the 2000s. Someone decided to post a story from the Qu'ran as proof that Muslims have violent stories in the Qu'ran. It is a story found in the Bible and the Torah.


Also, not all Muslims are good people. Not all Christians are good people. Not all Atheists are good people


In general, I am not really sure what direction you're trying to go with the post because it seems like it is all over the place.
   
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Re: Islamic problems - July 18th 2016, 11:30 PM

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Originally Posted by Lelola View Post
In general, I am not really sure what direction you're trying to go with the post because it seems like it is all over the place.
My "direction" is I'm tired of apologists attempting to feign an understanding of social problems in Islamic communities, and deflecting blame away from the people who are responsible for these crimes, as if it is more "the West's" fault than Islamic terrorists', for committing acts of terrorism. Of course nobody will admit they do this, because the notion is madness. But it is done all the time, by people who would rather blame "trucks" for terrorist attacks than the terrorists themselves. This is like Obama putting more blame on lack of gun control for the Orlando shooting, than on the terrorists. No, I don't accept this. Bullshit.

My "direction" is I'm tired of people overlooking or ignoring things simply because they're uncomfortable, or inconvenient due to not aligning with their politics. Things like that rape has drastically increased in Europe since the migrant crisis, as have terror attacks. That large percentages of Muslim youths support extremism.

This harmful attitude has a further reach than the problems with Islam. How come so many people have willfully ignored violent confrontations resulting from the "BLM" movement, and still been calling it "peaceful". Bullshit. It's not peaceful, and neither is Islam in it's current state. I have been watching/reading news report for fucking months now, showing how some of these degenerates act. Peaceful my ass. Whatever it started out as... this is what it has become. It has been steadily degenerating, coming down to a sniper attack recently.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Islamic problems - July 19th 2016, 02:58 AM

I agree, I also don't think we should be deflecting blame away from those responsible for the crimes. Those who commit acts of terror are to blame, extremists. Sure, we should target unhealthy ideals and extremism existing in any community, but that isn't the majority of the nearly 2 billion Muslims worldwide.

Also, where are these statistics you keep saying that we're ignoring? Like the violence being "correlated with geographical regions, religious beliefs?" Where is your data supporting this? You're emphasizing that we're all ignoring the facts, yet all you've provided are anecdotes. I validate that you're on the ground in Europe seeing these things, but I've seen nothing to prove anything you're saying.


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Re: Islamic problems - July 19th 2016, 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post
I agree, I also don't think we should be deflecting blame away from those responsible for the crimes. Those who commit acts of terror are to blame, extremists. Sure, we should target unhealthy ideals and extremism existing in any community, but that isn't the majority of the nearly 2 billion Muslims worldwide.

Also, where are these statistics you keep saying that we're ignoring? Like the violence being "correlated with geographical regions, religious beliefs?" Where is your data supporting this? You're emphasizing that we're all ignoring the facts, yet all you've provided are anecdotes. I validate that you're on the ground in Europe seeing these things, but I've seen nothing to prove anything you're saying.
Like I said, I'm disorganized with these things. Few google searches (took 5 minutes) came up with these sources though:

https://www.unodc.org/documents/data...nd_Justice.pdf

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/c...se/by-country/

They're both out of date though. First one is 2010, second one is 2014. I'd expect the war in Syria and the rest of the region to alter some of those statistics.

Finding irrefutable evidence to draw correlations between religious beliefs and violence is bit harder.

http://www.pewforum.org/2014/01/14/r...six-year-high/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_4596169.html

Now... I could continue, but I think it'd be a bit of a digression. I do think there is a correlation between violence and certain religions. That doesn't mean I necessarily think religion causes the violence. This can get extremely messy. It could even be said that Atheism has caused violence in the past. It is more about the leadership in those regions. Corrupt leadership will exploit religion, culture, politics (and anything in fact) to further centralise power by manipulating people. But it's not a one-way street. Religious beliefs in the region, do influence decisions made by authorities/leadership... but the leadership also influences people's interpretation of their religion. Like I said, it's messy. But there is correlation between religion and violence.

If anyone is interested in controlling migration, those correlations are what is relevant. If people are interested in solving the problems over there, that's different. Those correlations don't go into details of how to address that. On that topic:

I do think the influence of any religion in politics should be kept to a minimum. It's just... what I think. I've got my reasons.
Perhaps there are statistics/research studies which somehow back this up too, but I haven't looked yet. Religion is very rarely based in any fact. It is mostly just beliefs, tbh, based on questionable historical sources, which are essentially stories handed down through generations. Stories open to interpretation. This openness to interpretation is good and bad, but it is unquestionably bad in politics. Politics ought to be more concerned with solving social problems by using facts instead of anecdotal evidence such as that presented by religious teachings. Because this anecdotal evidence can be interpreted in any number of ways. Take Christianity, and it's controversial relationship with LGBT. I don't need to explain further. Does Christianity ultimately support LGBT, or do they not support it/them? Bit of both. This ambiguity is a problem. I'd much rather focus on statistics and facts which for example draw correlations between LGBT and crime, poverty, social problems, violence, etc. I don't think there are any correlations though. Problem solved. Much simpler. I'm aware that STDs are correlated with homosexuality though. But I haven't thought/researched enough about this to comment. And I'd be digressing too much. So coming back to the topic...

... religion & violence are correlated. I do think violence is caused by many things though. Religion is just one of these things. If toxic interpretations of a religion spread thanks to corrupt leadership pushing that sort of propaganda, this sort of infection spreads way beyond the borders of such a region, and even beyond the control which such corrupt leadership might have had over it initially. It becomes a self-sustaining menace. Hence, even if ISIS is demolished overnight, extremist Islam will most likely still exist and be just as strong, and keep on spreading. Quite possibly, the better solution would have been to leave the dictatorships in the region alone, instead of interfering. They appeared to have had better control over the situation.

____________________________

By the way, I hope we understand each other that I do not think the majority of Muslims are violent by nature. I don't think the majority of people are.
There were "statistics" I found on this too, which I discarded because their sources were obscure, or otherwise leading to polls held on far-right websites. I could try and dig this up too, but it could take quite some time. It was also a case of playing with words. They'd phrase the question a certain way in the poll, such as "Do you think the attacks in Paris were unprovoked?", to which a large number would answer "no". Maybe even I would have, I don't know. So then someone produced a bar chart showing that 70% of Muslims support ISIS. I don't remember exactly, so this is me making it up a little.

Further down the line, I've seen statistics like these used by prominent right-wing bloggers. A guy called Ben Shapiro made that mistake. That's where I first noticed this.
Take a look at this news article someone sent me today:

AWD News

What do you notice, that's strange about the website? The "about us" link at the bottom doesn't work. The "contact us" link doesn't betray any information about who owns the website either. And the article has no author. It's suspected to originate from Pakistan. When I see polls and statistics leading back to those kinds of sources... I go take a break. It's frustrating.

Anyway, n
one of that means I don't think that extremist attitudes within Islam have gone rampant. They have. Islamophobia is not irrational or "racist" when the religion is correlated with the largest number of terror attacks in modern history.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Islamic problems - July 20th 2016, 04:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDF View Post
Finding irrefutable evidence to draw correlations between religious beliefs and violence is bit harder.
Well actually, there is evidence on level of religiosity being connected with violence within some social psychology research. Conflict arises in any population when there's a threat to access to resources, and what they've found is that a society with high level of religiosity AND little access to resources (the minority in an area or dealing with oppression) are more likely to respond with violence. [Source-I'd highly recommend you give it a read, really interesting stuff] Inrefutable evidence is always difficult to find. Nothing you provided still points to a direction of this being unique to Muslims but rather something we're seeing in current times. I agree that toxic interpretation of a religion is dangerous, and that no doubt has lead to much of what we're seeing. But I don't think that's related to Islam, just extremeism of any religion.


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Re: Islamic problems - July 20th 2016, 08:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee. View Post
Nothing you provided still points to a direction of this being unique to Muslims but rather something we're seeing in current times. I agree that toxic interpretation of a religion is dangerous, and that no doubt has lead to much of what we're seeing. But I don't think that's related to Islam, just extremeism of any religion.
Thanks for the article, it looks good. I like that kind of stuff.

I've been coming to more of an opinion that Islam has become a special case, because the problems have existed for so long, and because there are so many who follow the religion. I mentioned this already.

Quote:
If toxic interpretations of a religion spread thanks to corrupt leadership pushing that sort of propaganda, this sort of infection spreads way beyond the borders of such a region, and even beyond the control which such corrupt leadership might have had over it initially. It becomes a self-sustaining menace.

In the current state things, extremism has become so widespread, and even gained popularity among many poorer Muslim communities (especially youths) even in the West, that this toxic interpretation has almost become integral with their belief system. Many Muslims also reject this extremism, I know... but many also do not. Should we perhaps then refer to those moderate Muslims as "protestant Muslims". I only have anecdotal evidence supporting assertions that people within Muslim communities who speak out publicly against their extremism, get very serious death threats. It's not empirical, but it is easily found. I just googled "
moderate muslims get death threats". This slightly mirrors what I said in another thread about BLM targeting black conservatives with extreme prejudice and death threats even. Death threats which after the Dallas shooting, I'd be prepared to also consider as just as serious, and not just internet trolling.

I am speaking of those death threats against Muslims, by other Muslims, because from that it almost seems like moderate Muslims are on the defence and under threat. They are hated by Islamic extremists and right wing extremists. Shitty life. Under such threat, not many feel like going public. They also have their families to protect. ISIS on the other hand loves going public. This greatly warps perceptions. That's why I labeled the moderate Muslims "protestant Muslims", because it often seems like they're in minority and rebelling against their own oppressive system. I wish I could understand this better. I don't genuinely know if they're a minority or majority. It depends where you draw the line, and there are so many false shitty statistics, that I've started giving up on this. This source is the best I've been able to find:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2006/05/23/...-muslim-world/

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...dain-for-isis/

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old...ns.pdf#page=97

It's not bad, but asking a Muslim if he/she supports ISIS which mostly kills other Muslims, is not the same as asking whether they support the occasional suicide bombing targeted against the West. So, where do we draw the line? I'm just talking about suicide bombings here. There are other topics. Attitudes towards women, voting, gay marriage, etc. If some political party in the West were to campaign to implement policies such as those under Sharia law... they'd be labeled extremists:

http://www.clarionproject.org/unders...s-under-sharia

Several of those things in that article would simply be considered as "rape" in the West. Now looking at this:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...-about-sharia/

... after looking at that, how many Muslims are truly "extremist" as per the same standards we apply to ourselves in the West? It's only fair we apply the same standards, to those who volunteer to migrate to the West. It's just a shame that that article doesn't actually cover attitudes of Muslims towards Sharia in the West. Finally, I find this article the most... disillusioning:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/07/21/...%3Fbeta%3Dtrue

I don't know what to make of it. It just makes me think that it's impossible to tell who is actually right or wrong about this. Everyone's got an opinion. A simple approach is to say "our countries, our rules", and "their countries, their rules".

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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