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Nice Guys Finish last? - October 10th 2016, 09:29 AM

Hey all,
So if you are a punk rock fan, you might have heard Green Day's song "Nice Guys Finish Last". Now after listening to this song, it hit me that one of the most common complaints I hear is that "I am a nice guy but girls go for the douchebags". In my opinion, this is utter bull crap. I'm a nice guy, never had a girlfriend, but I attribute that to me being a bit of an introvert and not really getting out of my shell.
However, I've personally heard a lot of guys claim to be "friendzoned" because they are too nice.
I just want to hear what you all think. Is there such a thing that Nice guys finish last or is it just a figment of the imagination of guys who were rejected.


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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 10th 2016, 10:48 AM

Friendzone doesn't exist, simple as that. Doesn't matter if it's guy or a girl gettind denied - nobody owes you their emotions and attachment. People aren't slot machines that deploy affection if you put enough "emotional currency" in it.

As for morons who claim friendzone is a thing, they're entitled. Overly entitled, I might add.


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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 10th 2016, 02:03 PM

People who describe themselves as "nice guys" tend to be doing so for self-assurance. They're generally not at all.


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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 11th 2016, 06:36 AM

I'd say, look at the other side. Do bad guys finish first? I'd say yes, but I'm thinking of some assholes I went to school with who peaked in 6th grade. Once you finish early though, I feel like you don't really win, because you didn't enjoy the ride.
Some bad guys can sustain being happy. I'm more thinking of politicians I guess... For example, Michigan's governor allows a city of 100,000 to be poisoned and remains a free man. Or, a dumbass criminal rapist billionaire calls a group of people criminals and rapists. But his end is coming.
Don't mean to get political, but current events and debates, you know.
Who knows, maybe I'll finish before I'm 40. 50?

Shit, this was about women. Being extraverted will always win women over, nice or not, at least some of the time. Introversion, especially crippling introversion... is hell.


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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 12th 2016, 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aguy View Post
Hey all,
So if you are a punk rock fan, you might have heard Green Day's song "Nice Guys Finish Last". Now after listening to this song, it hit me that one of the most common complaints I hear is that "I am a nice guy but girls go for the douchebags". In my opinion, this is utter bull crap. I'm a nice guy, never had a girlfriend, but I attribute that to me being a bit of an introvert and not really getting out of my shell.
However, I've personally heard a lot of guys claim to be "friendzoned" because they are too nice.
I just want to hear what you all think. Is there such a thing that Nice guys finish last or is it just a figment of the imagination of guys who were rejected.
"Nice guys finish last" is a mantra perpetuated by self-absorbed individuals to excuse their egocentric douchebag behavior and make themselves feel better about it, and also perpetuated by self-absorbed individuals who think their failure in life is the fault of the world around them instead of them. The two groups complement each other. I don't think that either of them truly believe that they can actually change anything in their lives, and instead ardently hold onto some simplistic belief that "nice guys finish last", as if there's some invisible hand of god that makes this true. One uses it to excuse their failure, the other uses it to excuse their douchebag behavior.

Some girls are into the "douche bag" type. It depends what crowds you mix with. But I'm pretty sure the majority don't really appreciate the arrogant human trash that throws their feet up on the seat in front of them on a bus just so they look "more alpha"... but that's my experience, and I try not to hang around shit crowds.

Some "nice guys" finish last, some don't. I really don't think there is any correlation between "being nice" and finishing first, or last. There are far too many other variables influencing someone's "success" or "failure" in life. So many variables that I don't even want to get started on that. There are books written about it anyway.

For example, just to expand on how "being nice" might, or might not work in someone's favor: it depends on the environment you live in. In some cultures, "being nice" is appreciated, and rewarded. I'm not necessarily talking about affection, but just "recognition", or perhaps "respect", and all the perks that come with it. In other cultures, being nice is seen as a weakness to be exploited. So in one culture, you get rewarded for it, and in another culture, you effectively get punished for it instead.

Part of being "successful" is knowing how and when to adjust to your environment, and adapt the right way, so you more often get rewarded than punished. That means, sometimes being the good guy, and sometimes being the bad guy. Simply put.

The problem with many people is that they just take a one-dimensional, one-size-fits-all approach. They might have grown up in a rough neighborhood when they were young, and so were raised to believe that "being bad" is more rewarding. They'll take that belief further throughout their life, and apply it to contexts and people where it simply is not true... so they lose their job, or get thrown out of their apartment, or get arrested. Another person might have grown up in a nicer neighborhood, and so were raised to believe that "being nice" is more rewarding. They'll also take that belief further throughout their life... and also apply it to contexts and people where it's not true, and get exploited by opportunists.

If you're a good judge of character, you should be able to tell whether "being nice" or "being bad" to certain people stands to be more, or less rewarding. My point is: it varies.

This post now sounds oddly sociopathic. But it's the truth.

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Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 14th 2016, 04:43 PM

There are guys that believe this but I think that this might be due to the kind of girls they have run into in the past. There are a lot of girls that prefer 'bad boys' but not all girls do. However, I think a lot of guys that have this mindset only seek out or have been rejected by girls who want a 'bad boy'.

I personally prefer a guy that is respectful and kind and don't seek out anyone else. I mean, I've had crushes on guys who might have been viewed as bad boys but I came to the realization that a relationship with them probably wouldn't work.

I am currently dating someone who is not a 'bad boy'. He is a computer nerd, a geek, a nerd (He has no problem admitting this) but I prefer that because he is kind, he is generous, he is right for me.


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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 14th 2016, 05:17 PM

I agree with a lot of what people have said here. And BDF you make some good observations on human social behavior, I wouldn't call that sociopsthic.n


I wanted to add that in my experience many guys who call themselves "nice" have something really fragile about them (their ego or their self esteem?) and full of insecurities and super afraid to be vulnerable So their "nice gestures" do not always come across as genuine. And sometimes they avoid issues that arise such as conflicts as a way of "keeping the peace" but that ends up in passive aggressive behavior and lack of effective communication especially when there's difficult emotions involved. There's nothing nice about it. And yet they go off and tell their friends no girl wants them because they're too nice. Sigh.

Sorry to rant here. Maybe it is just me feeling super fed up at the moment. And the hypocritical part is that I struggle with this too. It is such a messy topic xD
   
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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 14th 2016, 07:07 PM

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Originally Posted by In-the-way View Post
I wouldn't call that sociopsthic.n
Hm. I'm a little on the fence with this whole thing. Having that kind of knowledge is one thing. How you use it, is another. If you use it to exploit people and use them, whilst not maintaining any core precepts which govern your own behavior (integrity), and change faces every time you're dealing with a different person, just so you can reap the most rewards... it is somewhat sociopathic.

I've been finding it increasingly easy to go down that path with some people which I have difficulty in developing any compassion towards. Luckily, people like that are a minority. But as I said earlier, I try not to hang around shit crowds like that. I don't like what it does to me. I can't tell who is worse, me or them, if I'm somehow "overreacting", misinterpreting their behavior, or what. Situation best avoided. Anyway, this thread isn't about me.

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Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 16th 2016, 08:42 AM

I personally don't think nice guys finish last. I prefer a nice guy over someone who is a jerk any day.

As ~Abibliophobe~ said, those guys who consider themselves or who are 'bad boys' aren't really relationship material in my eyes.


   
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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 16th 2016, 03:59 PM

I honestly get incredibly annoyed by those whiney guys who are like "boo woo, nice boys always finish last". It's just so entitled sounding and makes the guy sound needy and insecure. All I hear when men complain about finishing last because they're nice is that they're entitled to my love, that I'm not allowed to "friendzone" them. But like, a lot of these guys who say such things are insecure and don't make their interests known OR the girl doesn't feel attracted to them for another reason. So what?

Let me just say that my boyfriend is probably one of the nicest, kindest, most thoughtful guys you'll ever meet. In our mid-20's, we're already living together and planning to get married. That's far from "finishing last". Nice guys tend to be the ones to have the first long-term relationships that will actually be successful. The douchy guys who the whiney "nice" guys complain about losing all the girls too typically end up single, as their bad behaviours make it hard to hold down a relationship or they eventually learn the error of their ways and also become nice guys ooooor they end up with women who are bitchy and engage in life long destructive behaviours together. Yay.

Also, I think the "douchy' guys who are seen as "winning" by these whiney "nice" guys are kind of like the bitchy girls I see a lot accomplishing the female version of this. Let me elaborate; there are girls who I think are awful. They're really mean, they give me dirty looks if I date voice an opinion or engage in conversation near them, they're gossipy, and catty, and so on. But then they end up dating these extremely cute and extremely nice guys and all I can think is "wtf?! what's he see in her? she's so mean!" but I think it is because girls like that are really catty/nasty/gossipy with other girls but they act really nice and sweet around men; maybe they don't act nice or sweet, but they might act sultry and fun or whatever, regardless, the guy doesn't see those girls as being bitchy because she acts different around him. I see men doing the same thing; I dated a guy like that once who was really nice around me, I think he sort of let down his defences because I knew he had issues, but around other guys he came off as a womanizing douche bag - like thought he could just get with who ever, even though everyone knew that was a lie, acted like he was gods gift to women, acted like he was going to get rich any day etc. and everyone else knew that was total shit - but here's the thing, he's still a 2 faced moron and I'm now dating one of the nicest guys imaginable. Hm, funny how the nice guy wins in the long run, eh? In any case, I think that these kids of people are compensating or really are just super arrogant and are sexually forward because they can be and they'll try really hard to "get with" someone but it doesn't usually stick.

In any case, I don't think nice guys finish last, because they tend to be the ones with the happiest and most fulfilling relationships.




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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 17th 2016, 05:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Always * View Post
They're really mean, they give me dirty looks if I date voice an opinion or engage in conversation near them, they're gossipy, and catty, and so on. But then they end up dating these extremely cute and extremely nice guys and all I can think is "wtf?! what's he see in her? she's so mean!" but I think it is because girls like that are really catty/nasty/gossipy with other girls but they act really nice and sweet around men; maybe they don't act nice or sweet, but they might act sultry and fun or whatever, regardless, the guy doesn't see those girls as being bitchy because she acts different around him.
I've never give it much thought, so I'm probably generalizing. A lot.

I've usually been under the impression those kinds of relationships are about control. They find it easy to "control" and exploit a partner who is "nice". I don't know how often this backfires though. I imagine a lot. As I said earlier in a post, I don't think the self-proclaimed "nice guys" are inherently very different from the "bad guys". They just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and got pushed to the back of the queue. If they were at the front, you'd probably find they can be just as arrogant/boastful and douchey in their behavior. I've actually seen this happen to people... so yeah.

Anyway, it requires a degree of foresight, planning, and deliberation though, which I think makes those specific kind of relationships rather rare. Most relationships I've known, were relatively spontaneous/impulsive instead. They tend to not necessarily work, but certainly more healthy than the above.

But I know cases where I'm about 99% certain that wasn't the reason, so it really is just one theory. Like I said, I've not given it much thought.

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"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 18th 2016, 09:30 AM

I'm confident, I'm honest, and friendly. I am a really nice guy. I'm also a professional strategist.

In my teenage years I was something of a ladies man. Being nice never hindered me, it always helped me. However...

This friend zone thing clearly exists, except it isn't exactly what most people think it is. Lets be honest. Anybody who thinks that they are in the 'friend zone' clearly want more from the relationship than to just be friends. This also means that the other person probably does not want to be more than to just be friends, otherwise, there would be all kinds of hormones floating around and they would be more than just friends!

The Buddhists think that a lot of our desire for 'love' comes from our desire to be loved. This is exactly why nice guys do often finish last. If a guy treats a girl like crap, the girl often chases their affection... If on the other hand you find yourself already spending all your time with a person who you love, they will already feel that you love them. There will be no obvious desire to make things 'more' from their side of things. You will be a friend who loves them, and as standard they will be happy to keep things as they are.

I am certainly not saying that if you find yourself in this situation that you should ditch the other person, play games or try to make them chase you. If you do this then you are making the same mistake as you made in the first place. The main reason this friend zone appears to be bad is when its coupled with dishonesty. If you feel for a girl, or boy, then tell them! These feelings come and go by the minute. 'When u wear your hair like that I cant help but fancy you.' There is nothing wrong with saying something like that.

There is another time when things go wrong. When the other person tries to hold on to your affection by keeping themselves in a place 'above' you by putting you down all the time. If you want to keep a friend who is like this then it's important to try to stay positive at all times. If they are being harsh, turn it into a joke. Laugh at their attempts to put you down and guess what happens next... If your honest, realistic and confident, they will want to win your affections!
   
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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 19th 2016, 10:57 AM

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Originally Posted by ~Mr. Self Destruct~ View Post
People who describe themselves as "nice guys" tend to be doing so for self-assurance. They're generally not at all.

I'm not sure I'd generalise it that much. Personally I think I'm a nice guy, because I make it a point to help people out, smile at people and generally be helpful. But yeah, I get your point.


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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 19th 2016, 05:24 PM

Quote:
I've usually been under the impression those kinds of relationships are about control. They find it easy to "control" and exploit a partner who is "nice". I don't know how often this backfires though. I imagine a lot. As I said earlier in a post, I don't think the self-proclaimed "nice guys" are inherently very different from the "bad guys".
I actually don't think this is necessarily the case at all. Oh, it certainly is sometimes, but not in the way you might think (e.g. she or he is not an abusive person, but she or he acts differently around different people because she or he can, and that's usually seated in some kind of insecurity); it's just that I think some people like this are calculating everything? The point I was really trying to make was that the girls I think are bitchy but act nice around men are similar to men who are total douche bags around other men but are probably really nice around women. I think there are many reasons for it, ranging from reasons such as feeling jealous of people of the same gender, seeing them as competition, being insecure, because they don't like other women but love being in relationships with men, or because they're a chameleon typed person. It's the same for men; it's kind of weird, but my point is that I've just noticed these people who come off as "bitchy" or "douchy" or "bad boys" aren't neccesarily acting like that around someone they have a romantic or sexual interest in. Their potential partners might see some glimmer of hope in this person, might see that they're actually a decent person, and they might feel special that this person is so nice to them. Depending on the social context, they might not even realize what a dick/bitch their potential partner is, but even if they do, again, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

My thing is that I actually get extemely annoy by nice guys whining and griping about "oh, boo boo, nice guys come in last wahhhhh I'm a massive fucking wuss and don't understand why women can't see what's so wonderful about me wahwah wah boo boo". Trust me, as someone who's also extremely nice and always had guys pass me up for my less-nice but funnier or sexier friends, I know that it sucks and can hurt BUT you also learn pretty quick being a nice person doesn't entitle you to anyone's love and constantly finding fault in someone else (e.g. whining that people keep going to bad boys/bitchy girls/douches/ whatever) isn't going to fix that problem, it just allows you to sink into a deep pit of self-loathing and self-pitying and whining, which really isn't a good look. I think a lot of it comes down to it being a personality thing and not a nice vs. not nice thing, like a lot of these really nice guys (and girls) take dating really seriously, whereas a lot of other young people don't take it so seriously. Nice people often end up with other nice people.

But like, for example, I'd be pissed if my boyfriend (one of the nicest people I knew) had known me back in the day when I was dating assholes and been like 'urgh, why do girls like her keep dating those dicks instead of me?!" Because then it comes down to him judging me for my life choices and making a selfish judgement by making my dating choices about himself instead of reflecting on why I might be currently attracted to the guys I am dating them. In fact, in most cases probably has literally nothing to do with the guy and his self worth when he sees women dating jerks, like one guy I dated I dated because I wanted someone in my life basically as a glorified fuck buddy because I was emotionally broken and didn't want to be alone but was in absolutely no shape to be committing to any serious kind of relationship and I sure as hell wasn't going to expect some really nice guy to go along with that, so most guys thought this guy was a bit of a jerk, but again, he was one of those guys who acted differently around women and he filled a void. Oh, and because he was a "bad boy" he was totally for it and had no longterm expectations, versus a nice guy who'd be heartbroken later when it got ruined. What's that got to do with "nice guys finishing last"? It has nothing to do with those nice guys; hell, my ex is still single and I'm marrying my boyfriend. I hope a personal example helps a bit to help understand why nice guys shouldn't internalize women dating jerks/dicks/bad boys as something being "their problem"; there are so many women out there who are in the same place as they are, so if they're only seeing women that aren't in that same place then they need to look around more, you know.

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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 20th 2016, 01:19 AM

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The point I was really trying to make was that the girls I think are bitchy but act nice around men are similar to men who are total douche bags around other men but are probably really nice around women. I think there are many reasons for it, ranging from reasons such as feeling jealous of people of the same gender, seeing them as competition, being insecure, because they don't like other women but love being in relationships with men, or because they're a chameleon typed person. It's the same for men; it's kind of weird, but my point is that I've just noticed these people who come off as "bitchy" or "douchy" or "bad boys" aren't neccesarily acting like that around someone they have a romantic or sexual interest in. Their potential partners might see some glimmer of hope in this person, might see that they're actually a decent person, and they might feel special that this person is so nice to them. Depending on the social context, they might not even realize what a dick/bitch their potential partner is, but even if they do, again, it's not necessarily a bad thing.
I've come to judge people based more on how they behave towards others, rather than myself. Precisely for those kinds of reasons. And also a purely rational reason: it's easier to judge someone more fairly/objectively from that perspective, than when you're face-to-face with that person.

It might come off harsh, but I don't want people finding their ways into my inner circle just because they are "good actors" when I'm around. This is generally speaking, not just regarding intimate relationships. I don't judge someone for slipping every now and then, snapping at someone, or having a bad day and acting out... but I do judge if they consistently show bad traits, and it actually annoys me slightly when they put on a different face around me. I find it hard to believe that such people do it because I'm such a "nice person".

I mean, the odds are almost 0% that I would be friends with "that guy" who instead of using the toilets like a normal person, he specifically walks up to the urinal in the middle, spreads his elbows sideways into other guys to provoke them, and aims for the water to make the most noise and show how "alpha" he is. This image is obviously a bit of a parody (although realistic), but you should get the idea. It wouldn't matter, if such a person acted differently around me. Like I said, it would probably just annoy me more.

And this is digressing a bit, but since it was brought up: "competition". I find it even more annoying. That any stranger thinks that they are in "competition" with me, assumes that I want the same things as they do, and assumed that they "know" me. I'm pretty sure that about 99% of the time, that's not true, and that's not at all exaggerating (maybe by 5%, or something like it). It's part of the reason why there really aren't many conversation topics for me to chose from when talking with people. Talking about things like Kardashian's ass just doesn't.. work for me at all. It never did either. It isn't something I ever "grew out of", because I never really "grew into it" in the first place. At some point I might have pretended around some of my peers back in school, but it wasn't really genuine. Different interests. And I have a dangerously low tolerance towards people offloading their insecurities on me, and bothering me with their shit, because they "think" they're in "competition" with me or that I want the same things they do. Or maybe they don't think. Maybe this all just happens in their subconscious.

If I anticipate a situation like that approaching, I usually block it out with headphones and ignore the imbecile(s) and go about my business. But with "some people", that still isn't good enough. Well. I walk around prepared, is all I can say, and I don't give these people a fair fight, because I frankly don't give a shit if their "peers" respect me and most of the time I make a point of making this known. I've spent my life living in many different places, some quite provincial, where these kinds of people were a frequent problem especially towards "outsiders" like me, where "men" are expected to "solve their disputes like men", whatever the fuck that means. Every "community" of these wonderful human beings have different rules. Some do "fists only", some use bottles but kicking the balls is apparently "going too far", some do it in gangs, and if you don't have a gang then you're out of luck. Pretty much everyone spits on getting police involved, and that's pretty much the first thing that goes through my head. If it's an urban location, response times are reasonable enough. But if it's some village out in the country, that's not the case and not something I can rely on.

I realise now that this post is better suited for the ranting forum.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; October 21st 2016 at 04:46 PM.
   
  (#16 (permalink)) Old
Lelola Offline
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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 21st 2016, 10:36 PM

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Originally Posted by aguy View Post
Hey all,
So if you are a punk rock fan, you might have heard Green Day's song "Nice Guys Finish Last". Now after listening to this song, it hit me that one of the most common complaints I hear is that "I am a nice guy but girls go for the douchebags". In my opinion, this is utter bull crap. I'm a nice guy, never had a girlfriend, but I attribute that to me being a bit of an introvert and not really getting out of my shell.
However, I've personally heard a lot of guys claim to be "friendzoned" because they are too nice.
I just want to hear what you all think. Is there such a thing that Nice guys finish last or is it just a figment of the imagination of guys who were rejected.
In my experience, the guys who say "nice guys finish last" are either not putting themselves out there or do not like the selection of girls that like them. Seriously.


I had a friend in high school who moaned about that all the time. Want to know something? One girl broke up with her boyfriend for him. Another two or three girls liked him. He still acted like no one would date him. It's an issue of wanting something that he didn't have.


Another friend would act like that. He ended up being friends with benefits despite she clearly wanted more and convinced her not to tell me because I would tell her it was a bad idea and tell him that he shouldn't be a dick like that to her. Of course, I was dragged into it twice when she texted me shit in anger.


In general, it is something people tell themselves to make themselves feel better.
   
  (#17 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 21st 2016, 10:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Lelola View Post
In my experience, the guys who say "nice guys finish last" are either not putting themselves out there or do not like the selection of girls that like them. Seriously.


I had a friend in high school who moaned about that all the time. Want to know something? One girl broke up with her boyfriend for him. Another two or three girls liked him. He still acted like no one would date him. It's an issue of wanting something that he didn't have.


Another friend would act like that. He ended up being friends with benefits despite she clearly wanted more and convinced her not to tell me because I would tell her it was a bad idea and tell him that he shouldn't be a dick like that to her. Of course, I was dragged into it twice when she texted me shit in anger.


In general, it is something people tell themselves to make themselves feel better.
it really depends on the individual.

everyone has different tastes.

there is no such thing has being ugly because one person will be attracted to that type of person.

the whole nice guy and bad boy theory is fictional because the nice guy and the bad boy have different personalities.

it cannot be that every nice guy and every bad boy has the same personality.

its all about preference
   
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Re: Nice Guys Finish last? - October 21st 2016, 11:08 PM

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Originally Posted by lostteen View Post
it really depends on the individual.

everyone has different tastes.

there is no such thing has being ugly because one person will be attracted to that type of person.

the whole nice guy and bad boy theory is fictional because the nice guy and the bad boy have different personalities.

it cannot be that every nice guy and every bad boy has the same personality.

its all about preference
The point is that it is what guys tell themselves to feel better.
   
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