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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
MWF Offline
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How half of America lost its f***ing mind - October 31st 2016, 04:55 AM

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reason...e-talks-about/
This is an interesting article on Cracked that I read that gave me a new perspective about the whole "Trump phenomenon". My view was always that Trump's rise was, for the most part, a matter of "people with common sense vs. the completely bamboozled". I'm right to an extent, and I can say that with absolute confidence, because half the time, it seems like Donald Trump is just making shit up. And he is. That's an undisputed fact. This link is associated with politifact (a non-partisan truth rating website) and it ranks the last year's major presidential candidates based on truthfulness. Trump is ranked 60% between complete bullshitting and false statements, about 35% is mostly false to half-true statements, and about 5% of Trump's statements are rated mostly true or true. This can be backed up with simple research on his statements, it isn't a media bias to make him seem like a liar. Donald Trump is a liar. Fact.
What the Cracked article argues is that the split between voting for Trump and anyone else isn't so much a racist vs. non-racist issue (It's definitely easy to see why people would think this, he definitely has some objectively racist supporters) but it's a country vs. city issue. The author explains his idea with 6 main points.
6. "It's not about Red vs. Blue States, it's about Country vs. City." Consider this: Almost all of the counties in the United States voted Republican. More than 80%, easily. BUT, 62% of America's people live in cities. The more cities a state has= the more likely they'll vote democrat. I grew up in a city that would never touch Republicanism, despite things being awful there. He goes on to say that cities get all the attention, like when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans but completely obliterated a rural section of Mississippi, but everyone including the media ignored them.
5. "City People are from another Goddamn Planet." What someone from a rural area would see or hear in the media would seem completely ridiculous. Imagine growing up with country music and then hearing Eminem on the radio. Even though rappers or rockstars might tell their own story in their songs, it sounds to someone totally new like they just do drugs and screw around all day, creating a good vs. evil dynamic as well. This goes for TV too; imagine watching "The Wire" while growing up on a farm, trailer park, or small town, and it sounds like city-folk are godless heathens. And cities are less religious, as well, which feeds into that supposed good vs evil idea.
4. "Trends Always Start in Cities; Not All of Them are Good." Kind of the same idea as the previous point. Cities seem like horrible, immoral places where "Blacks riot, Muslims set bombs, gays spread AIDS, Mexican cartels behead children, and atheists tear down Christmas trees". All of this goes against the average human's values of course, but the way the news shows it and churches tell it, it's just part of city life. it's like city folk can't understand common sense values and they continue to destroy themselves, and therefore they can't be trusted to run the country.
3. "The Rural Areas have been Beaten to Shit." I can testify firsthand that this is true. I went on two road trips recently, with large portions of the trip going through rural towns and areas. And holy shit, it's definitely true. I saw dilapidated houses all over the place, with Trump signs outside a ton of them. The author says that in the country, the suicide rate doubles. During the recession, the cities got most of the relief while rural areas didn't. And the schools suck out there. They don't get enough funding to get good teachers and the schools tend to be in crappy condition besides. Many small towns tend to be built off of one big thing, like an oil field, copper mine, lumber industry, etc. One area I drove through had an abandoned copper mine and was very poor because the best alternative now was working at a gas station, where people would stop by before moving on. Its tough to do much else. And if you want to move to the city, the cost of living is ridiculous, and you likely won't make it. I grew up sort of poor in the city and was surrounded by REALLY poor people there, but poverty's different in the country. Who's gonna help you? And where will you find a decent job? At least in a city, I could make somewhat livable money waiting tables as a last resort.
2. "Everyone Lashes Out When They Don't Have a Voice." Now that the election is here and they have a level playing field (1 vote=1 voice, not adjusted for cost of living), countryfolk say "fuck you" to the establishment by voting for Trump. The government ignored them while allowing excuses for poor people in the city. They want their old way of life back, which wasn't necessarily the stereotype of the hyper-racist, but being able to live more comfortably. Hence the slogan: "Make America Great AGAIN."
1. "Assholes are Heroes." I'm not sure I totally agree with this one, but I get the point. You get one guy who is a total dick and breaks the rules, but they get stuff done regardless. The author uses the examples of Iron Man (billionaire asshole, superhero), Dr. House (asshole doctor), and Walter White (asshole meth-dealer), tv personalities that people like despite the fact that they are jerks. But they DO things. Nothing was getting done with supposedly level-headed, educated people, so lets throw in this idiot! Maybe he can do something useful.
The only thing that feels odd about this is that Trump is the embodiment of the shitty stereotypes of the elite, but he SAYS the right things to make people listen. And its working. And, in all likelihood, the problem won't get fixed no matter what after this election. Another interesting thing to note is that this didn't just work for Trump, it also worked for Bernie Sanders; he won most of the rural primaries over Hillary Clinton and most of the rural counties as well. This also reinforces the idea that people from the country want someone who isn't from the typical establishment (Independent of the two parties), and Bernie was someone who spoke simply, listened to the rural poor, acknowledged their problems, and blamed the rich and the establishment for the problems of the people. Bernie was well-liked even if he was a big, bad socialist. He may have been another way for rural voters to say "fuck you" to the establishment.
Shit this was long... and basically the same as the actual article. But it was a perspective I hadn't really considered, even while driving by trailer parks two weeks ago in the middle of nowhere.
Your thoughts?

Another note: Someone in the comments said that city folk see guns as weapons and countryfolk see guns as tools. I guess if you're poor have to hunt for food that makes sense... I tend to lean left towards strict gun policies, but maybe I should rethink it a little. In the city, if you have a gun, its a foregone conclusion that if it's used, someone is gonna get badly hurt at least. The same ideas don't apply in the country, where gun violence is significantly lower.


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Last edited by MWF; October 31st 2016 at 05:35 AM.
   
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Re: How half of America lost its f***ing mind - November 6th 2016, 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
Donald Trump is a liar. Fact.
I don't imagine Hilary Clinton is any better. I imagine she is worse, but this is a guess. An educated guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
... the split between voting for Trump and anyone else isn't so much a racist vs. non-racist issue (It's definitely easy to see why people would think this, he definitely has some objectively racist supporters) but it's a country vs. city issue.
Conservatism and liberalism are correlated with various things:
1. Age - younger people are more liberal
2. Religion - religious people are more conservative
3. Geography - like you said, urban is more liberal, rural more conservative
4. Wealth - this is a complex relationship. Poorer people can be just as liberal as they can be conservative. This depends more on their geography. But wealthier countries do tend to be more liberal. Arguably, this also has a lot to do with culture, and politics/democracy, etc. And democracy is correlated with wealth. This link describes some of these relationships indirectly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs), although it's a small part of a bigger picture

There are other factors, but those are the main ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
Almost all of the counties in the United States voted Republican. More than 80%, easily. BUT, 62% of America's people live in cities.
Rapid urbanization in the 1st half of the 20th century is a large contributor to how liberal ideology became more popular. Similar things are happening in developing nations now. I don't remember any statistics or facts to recite, but I'm aware of things like women in India campaigning against honor killings, women in Islam doing similar things. The case with Islam is less stable, because war tends to push people out of cities more than attract them. But I don't want to oversimplify this. This is nothing more than an indirect relationship, and just one of many I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
City People are from another Goddamn Planet.
LOL. True. I've spent much of my life relocating between places. I spent a large part of my life living in London, and a significant time living in Poland, in a relatively rural location. So, I'm weird everywhere I go. And everyone pisses me off. lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
Cities seem like horrible, immoral places where "Blacks riot, Muslims set bombs, gays spread AIDS, Mexican cartels behead children, and atheists tear down Christmas trees
I've come across this sort of thinking often. You can't debate with it. You can't debate with people who don't even have the slightest grasp of an alternative point of view, whether they're conservative or liberal. It's like trying to teach someone a new language, by directly talking to them in that new language. It just goes over most people's heads. It's an entirely different way of thinking, different mentality, different "grammar", etc.

You need to take baby steps with people like that. Use language they understand, and points of views which they can relate to, and build from that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
"The Rural Areas have been Beaten to Shit." I can testify firsthand that this is true.
America had it very bad with the recession. All this turmoil today in fact has it's roots mostly in 2008 when the banks crashed. The country I lived in (Poland) wasn't very reliant on credit back then, so they weren't affected too much. This another factor which I could have mentioned earlier: in developed countries, liberal politics tends to thrive when the economy is booming, whereas conservative politics tends to thrive when the economy is stalling. That's because of things like liberals more often advocating things like "redistribution of wealth", whereas conservatives more often advocate actual economic growth.

It's a matter of changing priorities. Considering just what I said in the previous paragraph (and nothing else), if you are of the impression that your country's economy is stalling, it makes sense to vote conservative. Considering just what I said in the previous paragraph though.

Again though, this problem is complex. Wealth disparity has been increasing, despite liberal politics/culture being in charge in the West, which is supposed to promote "wealth redistribution" and reduce wealth disparity. This borders on conspiracy theories, but I attribute this to lobbyists from the financial industry influencing government legislation, in liberal governments themselves. This "collaboration" is in my opinion no better than genuine corruption, and has led to deregulation of banks, which has given the financial industry more freedom. A free-er market, in other words. This is conservative economics, not liberal. So it's ironic that liberal governments have been supporting this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
Many small towns tend to be built off of one big thing, like an oil field, copper mine, lumber industry, etc. One area I drove through had an abandoned copper mine and was very poor because the best alternative now was working at a gas station, where people would stop by before moving on.
A large reason for this it quite simply globalization. Manufacturing always required a large labor force. Labor in America is expensive. Labor in China is cheap (and it is even cheaper in other developing countries with natural resources). So... those businesses either go broke, or move abroad.

This is a big problem. What do you do with all those people who loose out from a deal like that? They still have voting rights, and they will vote against what they perceive to be the main reason for their declining standard of living: globalization. Globalization branches out into many sub-categories, and open borders/immigration is one of these categories, which is also a large % of what Trump's campaign is about. This sounds loosely connected, but there is a lot more to it. I just don't want to make this post too long. Good idea to read up more on "globalization" in your own time, if you haven't already. I had a short book (100 pages) which I'd normally recommend but I'm relocating, and lost it, and forgot what it's called.

It is really hand-in-hand if you think about it though. Globalization causes manufacturing to move abroad where there is cheaper labor. It also causes cheaper labor to come to you. It is a two-way exchange. And local populations often aren't happy about having to compete with that sort of cheaper labor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
... countryfolk say "fuck you" to the establishment by voting for Trump...
The countryfolk have largely been the way they are for the past generation (30-40 years). That hasn't changed. That alone, is not responsible for Trump's popularity. Conservatism always tended to be more popular in rural regions. That hasn't changed.

What's changed is it's support in Urban regions. I don't know if you follow any "underground" conservative media, like on youtube. If you don't, then I'll just summarize it this way: most of it has nothing to do with countryfolk

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
"Assholes are Heroes." I'm not sure I totally agree with this one, but I get the point.
I see this to be very similar as another thread in this forum titled "Nice Guys Finish last" (http://www.teenhelp.org/forums/f38-c...s-finish-last/). I gave some long replies under that. If you feel like reading it, ok. But here's a short summary of what I think:

Nice guys, or bad guys, don't finish last. In a larger context, "being nice" is not correlated with "finishing last". It has nothing to do with. Some environments are more hostile, some are more friendly. In some environments "being nice" is more rewarded, in other environments "being bad" is more rewarded.

The environment of politics, is generally one of the most hostile in civilized society. By comparison (and I've done this before): 25% of prison populations are said to consist of clinical psychopaths, and 25% of politicians are also said to consist of clinical psychopaths.

Psychopaths often crave power, and thrive in hostile environments. The difference between becoming a criminal, or a politician, is said to be mostly attributed simply to where they were born.

If they were born in a ghetto --> criminal
If they were born in an up-market white neighborhood --> politician

This obviously is an oversimplification. It's something else which I always recommend to people to familiarize themselves with. There's plenty of information on the internet, even youtube.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
The only thing that feels odd about this is that Trump is the embodiment of the shitty stereotypes of the elite, but he SAYS the right things to make people listen.
Hilary Clinton is even more of an embodiment of "shitty stereotypes". More contemporary, liberal, stereotypes, but still. Trump is also this, but more focused on conservative stereotypes with the whole "businessman" image.

That is, if you want to think in terms of stereotypes. I think it oversimplifies issues too much.

Yes, Trump knows what to say to make people listen. He easily cornered the market in the arena of controversial topics which have for over a decade been thought of as "politically incorrect". He cornered the market, because there were no competitors, and there was a demand for certain problems such as mismanaged immigration to be discussed. Nobody else was discussing these topics, because they were intimidated with political correctness. This guy then comes out and shits on all of that by calling Mexicans rapists, and scores lots of points with lots of people... simply because he spat in the face of political correctness.

I don't actually believe he said Mexicans are rapists because that's what he believes. I'm pretty sure he said it, just to be controversial, and to show that he doesn't give a shit about the various safe-guards and obstructions which, yes, liberal politics has created to insulate itself from criticism.

If you ever make an effort to listen to his supporters, go to those channels on youtube, you will notice that most of them don't give a damn about so called "Mexican rapists". They talk far more often about thinks like "political correctness" bullying them. There are other topics also, but I don't want to go into all of it here. My point is, go see for yourself. "Rebel Media" on youtube is a good place to start. Just pls don't go to some white supremacist bullshit and base opinions of that, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichWolverineFreak View Post
Bernie was someone who spoke simply, listened to the rural poor, acknowledged their problems, and blamed the rich and the establishment for the problems of the people. Bernie was well-liked even if he was a big, bad socialist.
Bernie didn't stand a chance. Like I said earlier, politics is a "hostile environment". Bernie was too "nice" to make it. Hilary squeezed him out like a turd:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb2knJE4DlQ

You may have already been aware of this. There are accusations that Hilary Clinton colluded with an organization called "Veritas", to send agitators posing as Bernie supporters, to Trump rallies... which in effect, turned the supporters of both those candidates against each other.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; November 6th 2016 at 11:45 AM.
   
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Re: How half of America lost its f***ing mind - November 6th 2016, 12:33 PM

How did you end up with those two people as the "only" choice?

This isn't a way to go, America...

I'm not even from there but damn, shit really hit the fan.


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Re: How half of America lost its f***ing mind - November 7th 2016, 01:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by St.Anger View Post
How did you end up with those two people as the "only" choice?

This isn't a way to go, America...

I'm not even from there but damn, shit really hit the fan.
Because a 3 party system is inherently unstable. Viewpoints are usually correlated with each other- so the people who are liberal on some issues are usually liberal on the other issues,etc. So every time a party has split and there has been a 3rd party of significance in a major election- the election ended up being "lost" for the majority. For example, let's say Sanders decided to run for some new or fringe party, and managed to somehow keep the popularity that he had back in the spring when he was running for Democratic candidacy- he would end up taking a good chunk of Hillary's votes, and Hillary would take a good percentage of his votes- and Trump would likely be the winner even if 60 percent of people wanted either Hillary or Sanders.

The bipartisan system kinda sucks, but since people usually end up having either liberal or conservative viewpoints, we will always only have 2 main candidates each election. The reason is simply that the "third candidate" will always end up being more similar to one of the two candidates than the other- and that creates a split in the votes.
   
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Re: How half of America lost its f***ing mind - November 7th 2016, 01:54 AM

The only theory I can come up with is that people started as legitimately and strongly against him, but hoped someone else would stop him. Then when he started winning they pretty much said "If you can't beat him, join him" and just went with it.


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Re: How half of America lost its f***ing mind - November 7th 2016, 01:41 PM

Clinton's worse, read the Podesta e-mails and you know how bad it will be if Clinton is elected

The media is painting Trump as worse than he really is though


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