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Russiagate - December 13th 2016, 05:06 AM

I was debating calling this Russiagate; ever since Watergate, scandals of all sorts have had the -gate suffix thrown on the end. However, this scandal will make Watergate look like child's play.
Over the weekend, the CIA issued a report that Russia definitely interfered with the US election. This is not a group of hackers where people try to guess the motive, this is the actual CIA. The purpose wasn't just to undermine US democracy, it was specifically to elect Trump. Now I suppose it's possible that Putin said, "Yeah, let's sit back and watch this jackass crash America off a cliff," but that doesn't appear to be the case. Trump always praised Putin during the election and Putin did likewise. The day after Trump was elected, Putin tried to contact him to normalize relations with the US. Don't forget about the time Trump threatened to pull out of NATO (if the members didn't pay us to be in Europe, that is, which isn't necessarily the most ridiculous thing in the world- but they are our allies). Trump also put Exxonmobile's CEO, Rex Tillerson, as the Secretary of State. Before we added sanctions to Russia, Exxon was working on a 500 BILLION dollar deal with Russia's state-owned oil company, Rosneft. Trump's former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, had significant ties to Russia; he was working with pro-Russia campaigns in the Ukraine. Although this could be interpreted as a joke, Trump literally asked Russia to hack Clinton during the election. Well, they did. In fact, they hacked the RNC and DNC. They did nothing with the RNC hack; there probably wasn't any point for a smear campaign for Trump's primary challengers because Trump ran away with a victory there. However, with Trump's record high disapproval rating, Clinton looked far tougher to beat in the general election. Julian Assange and Wikileaks HAVE ties to Russia. Even if it wasn't enough to beat Clinton, the Wikileaks emails would be enough for a significant amount of people to lose faith in our democracy and especially in Clinton's presidency.
Another thing to keep in mind: the higher-ups in Washington discussed before the election the risk of the election being interfered with, and Mitch McConnell, the head of the Republicans in the Senate, refused to raise the concern with the public because it was a 'partisan move' by the Democrats. This is ironic because he had no problem with the FBI screwing with Clinton days before the election. He could possibly be involved.
There is also a chance that Russian agents tampered with voting machines. In Detroit, 59% of the voting machines just 'broke' on election day. The Detroit area voted overwhelmingly for Clinton, but Trump won Michigan by only 10,000 votes. I don't know if they actually tampered with the machines. Maybe they were just old and shitty. But Clinton would've absolutely won in Michigan if the machines were working.
So far, 10 electoral college voters, 9 democrats and 1 republican, have stated that they won't vote for Trump. Well thank God, that is specifically WHY the electoral college was made, so the people wouldn't elect someone who is A. Unhinged (and Trump has definitely shown signs of being downright delusional) B. A dictator C. A puppet of a foreign government. This isn't a partisan issue. Trump needs less than 270 votes to lose. He won 306. So... 296. (FUCK, Michigan had 16)
There is only one crime discussed in the Constitution, and that's treason. The Constitution is blunt on the subject of traitors. The punishment is either death (straight-up death, the Constitution says that) or at least 5 years in prison, a minimum 10,000 dollar fine (lol), and the forfeiture of the chance at public office (lol, once again). For a crime this huge, the sentence would likely be death.


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Re: Russiagate - December 13th 2016, 08:02 AM

CIA wasn't trustworthy ever since JFK... How the f*ck would you believe CNN (Or other MSM) nowadays? (At least WikiLeaks is never really wrong) They killed their own credibility with the election and now they're pulling the Russia card after the recount blew up in their face and their fake news angle failed as well. They would rather have nuclear war with Russia... Think about that for a second

If Clinton would've won if these shitty machines were working, then the machines were rigged themselves, because they were rigged in Texas (http://imgur.com/S9qZLiO) and machines are less trustworthy than paper ballots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss2fPvXBd7Y). But let me guess, you would praise it if Hillary was rigged in and you guys have nuclear war with Russia... Interesting

And I refuse to believe the hacks were Russia's doing either. (FBI disagrees too) I would rather believe that a disgruntled DNC insider or US Intelligence themselves did the hacks of the DNC (http://usapoliticsnow.com/nsa-whistl...-intelligence/) and Podesta was phished (He had an easy password too). Even Julian Assange said it wasn't Russia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D92Gc7f6Lk)

Trump won and corruption lost the first round, if the faithless electors really become too much and Clinton would be elected, we would have 1776 part 2. The people spoke against globalism, and I honestly cannot blame them. If Trump gets through the electoral college, Clinton lost decidedly (If the recounts doesn't prove that) and the shills have nothing else to say


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Re: Russiagate - December 13th 2016, 10:54 AM

Dude, you believe(d?) in Pizzagate, a story fabricated by a bunch of nobodies on 4chan. And yet you won't believe the people whose job it is to detect these things. Not everything is a US government conspiracy.
And no, it isn't a foregone conclusion that Hillary would win if the electors didn't vote for Trump. In fact, assuming Republican electors went along with it, neither candidate would probably reach 270, and the House of Representatives (full of Republicans) would choose a Republican president. A sane one*. We, as a nation, would have to wait another four years to fight corruption, and instead of the Democrats throwing up some corporate shill to easily beat Trump (whose approval, if his cabinet members are any indication, could be as low as the teens by then) the Democrats will be forced to select a New Deal Democrat to compete that will actually solve our problems. I want THAT scenario. And keep in mind that I DON'T like Hillary Clinton, but I would take just about anyone other than Trump, except for Ted Cruz.
CNN reported what was told to them. They all did. That isn't something you can really spin. The CIA said this happened, and they reported what they said. That isn't controversial.
And of course Julian Assange said it wasn't Russia, if Russia is using him, he's not about to throw them under the bus in front of the entire world. And keep in mind that the FBI director James Comey, a Republican, basically threw the election more towards Trump's favor with that stupid stunt a few days before the election, where they acted like they had new evidence on Clinton but didn't. (Maybe I shouldn't have faith in the FBI then, because they already showed their hand)
Russia would never go to war with Clinton. She's a war hawk and would have the most capable military the world has ever seen at her disposal. Is that good? Not really, but Russia doesn't even want to fight us with Obama. If you're suggesting Clinton would go to war with Russia with us as the aggressor, that won't happen because her reelection chances would go down the tubes. Also, both sides are capable of shooting down nukes without setting them off. The more I think about it, the less danger I realize we're in with this scenario.
On your sources: I don't inherently disbelieve the woman who said the machine was broken, but there isn't a picture. USApoliticsnow is considered to have a very far right wing bias. I'll check the other sources when I'm done with my paper.


Wish I lived in Canada. UPDATE, NOV. 9th, 2016: This statement has become even more appropriate.
I vow that I will attack this endeavor with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. Jim Harbaugh

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Re: Russiagate - December 14th 2016, 06:30 PM

Post a link of the CIA report you talk about. I haven't had time to look into this myself. All I've heard of so far, is news stories with headlines saying things like "CIA blames the Russians", then within the actual text they say an investigation was carried out which yielded no results.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Russiagate - December 14th 2016, 07:08 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...T.nav=top-news
Ney York Times. Keep in mind that if they're wrong, they look absolutely terrible, so it's not like they're just gonna post a conspiracy.
It doesn't appear like Russia actually affected the voting machines themselves, but the constant leaks took their toll.
I thought I might've been jumping the gun a little bit at first, but even CNN joined in for the story. They suck, but CNNs job is to NOT rock the boat. It's to please the government at all times and not tell bad stories about rich people, like the Dakota Access Pipeline. That's why they barely said anything bad about Clinton and the Republican primary candidates during the election then went after Bernie and Trump, they were anti-establishment. If CNN is even going along with this against the guy who will LEAD the establishment, there's something there, at LEAST.


Wish I lived in Canada. UPDATE, NOV. 9th, 2016: This statement has become even more appropriate.
I vow that I will attack this endeavor with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. Jim Harbaugh

"Being an adult sucks. The only positives are weed, sex, and cars, and I have none of those right now." -Me

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hatred cannot drive out hatred; only love can do that." -Martin Luther King Jr.

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Re: Russiagate - December 15th 2016, 01:14 AM

I'm too short on time to really look into it much... but judging by the wording they used in that article like:
  • "A hacking group possibly linked to the agency"
  • "Investigators believe that the G.R.U., or a hacking group known as Fancy Bear"
  • "A self-proclaimed hacker that investigators believe was a group"
  • "It is unclear how WikiLeaks obtained the emails. But Russian intelligence agencies are prime suspects, researchers said."
... judging by that, it frankly seems a little bit vague.

This statement is a little more direct and meaningful:

  • "Investigators say it is a front for the Russian hackers"
Yes, the New York Times is a big news outlet. So are many others which have risked publishing misleading information. There's a lot at stake here, so some people are willing to take some crazy risks if it means it can still flip the election result.

I hope you see where I'm coming from.

And the wording matters. Even if the accusations of Russia supposedly hacking the election are bullshit... the NYT will not exactly have done anything strictly "wrong" by publishing what they did, because at first glance, it isn't really factually incorrect. They haven't asserted Russia's involvement in the WikiLeaks as being an absolute fact. They instead used words like "
believe", "suspect", "possibly"... and allow people to jump to their own conclusions and interpret it however they want to.

I've occasionally used tricks like that myself in some posts, so I recognise it when others do it. I won't say I'm proud of it though, and I rarely do it (shouldn't really do it at all). That way when someone turns around and accuses me of bullshit, I fall back by saying that I said the word "
possibly" somewhere in my post.

That said... it wouldn't surprise me if Russia did get involved and preferred Trump. Hilary Clinton was quite direct about her dislike towards Russia. It was bordering on openly hostile. I doubt anyone would actually launch nukes though. But with that still in mind... anyone in Putin's place would prefer Trump over Clinton, and Putin has proven before that he is capable of outrageous maneuvers. If he hadn't brazenly imprisoned his political opposition, assassinated people abroad, and invaded neighboring territories multiple times, I'd be far more skeptical.

The "evidence" put forward by the CIA so far really isn't convincing me at all. But based on a history of Putin's behavior in general, and the stakes... I'd place the probability of him interfering in the election somewhere at 30-50%. But it's just a guess.

I've noticed long ago that something was iffy about pro-Putin supporters on the internet, who appeared to be posing as Westerners. You were in fact the first to point out to me how Putin recruited so called "troll armies" on the internet, to spread dissent against the establishment in the West. But it's not interfering in the election directly, and really few people actually take these morons seriously with their broken English and "ur mom" insults. Plus I think the original purpose of these "troll armies" was to better control the internet's opinion in Russia on Putin himself. He wouldn't be the first to do this either. It's comparable to a political speaker paying "hype men" to infiltrate his audience and clap and laugh even when the speech he/she gives sucks. Then herd mentality takes over, and everyone's clapping suddenly. It's cretinous and irritating, but effective.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



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Re: Russiagate - December 15th 2016, 07:24 AM

I woke up to the following news about what Mich calls 'Russiagate':

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016...esistance.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-insiders.html

And I could maybe even name one hero that hacked the DNC... SETH RICH. Jullian Assange implies he leaked as well (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp7FkLBRpKg), he might've been killed because of the leak. (It wanders into conspiracy theory, but it's imo more believable than Russia hacking the elections at this point)

Edit: Could be more evidence of Rich leaking, WikiLeaks provided a reward for the people who killed Seth (https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/763041804652539904)


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Re: Russiagate - December 15th 2016, 05:05 PM

Ok, of those four sources, one is Fox, the Republican news station, and the other three are are all from Wikileaks. If Wikileaks is working FOR Russia, why would they hand over their employers just because somebody asked them a question?
And what do you mean 'hero'? If you hate government corruption, you would look at his cabinet picks and realize this is Corruption 101. He's giving away Cabinet positions to his biggest donors.
Small Business administrator: Linda McMahon gave Trump $7.5 million.
Education Secretary: Betsy Devos, $1.8 million.
Deputy Commerce Secretary: Todd Rickets, $1.3 million.
Treasury Secretary: Steve Mnuchin, $425,000 dollars. He was an executive at Goldman Sachs, a company Trump claimed to hate. He also allowed a foreclosure on a 90 year old woman over 27 cents.
Labor Secretary (who wants to replace workers with robots): Andrew Puzder, $332,000.
Commerce Secretary: Wilbur Ross $200,000
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.419351847fed
Not to mention, Rex Tillerson had a 500 billion dollar deal with Russia that would've gone through if not for sanctions. Secretary of State.
So all those loyalists like Sarah Palin, Chris Christie, Rudy Giuliani, and Newt Gingrich, they stumped for him on the campaign trail and now they're walking home with nothing. Not that I'm saying they should've gotten jobs they were unqualified for, but Trump made a cabinet full of millionaires and billionaires who have been basically robbing people for years, AND they donated to him. So what is this? Corruption. He said he would drain the swamp, not create one.
I don't mean to get off topic, but seriously. A 'hero' doesn't screw one politician to elect a guy with an IQ of 14 to be the president.


Wish I lived in Canada. UPDATE, NOV. 9th, 2016: This statement has become even more appropriate.
I vow that I will attack this endeavor with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. Jim Harbaugh

"Being an adult sucks. The only positives are weed, sex, and cars, and I have none of those right now." -Me

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hatred cannot drive out hatred; only love can do that." -Martin Luther King Jr.
   
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Re: Russiagate - December 15th 2016, 10:48 PM

I'll back off the CIA thing, for now. There isn't anything to suggest that Russia hacked the voting machines, and the CIA doesn't actually seem to have anything other than 'anonymous' sources. Hell, they COULD be lying. But the electoral college members are asking for a report before they vote, so I guess we'll see what happens with it, because they should be provided with sufficient info to make a decision. On the other hand, I don't see why the CIA would ever mess with Trump right before he's inaugurated.
If Russia didn't hack the voting machines, and all they were able to do was leak information, it's still our fault for voting for Trump, and it's Hillary's fault for sucking at policy and public relations. It's also the media's fault for focusing on bullshit issues. This isn't necessarily 'rigging' an election, unless the voting machines WERE hacked. It's just throwing out info to make people like Hillary less. I took a second to think about it though, and this could the Democratic version of Benghazi (bullshit issue, meant to sow doubt) unless there is absolute proof.
But once again, if he still makes it through, you're going to find out that Donald Trump is corruption incarnate.


Wish I lived in Canada. UPDATE, NOV. 9th, 2016: This statement has become even more appropriate.
I vow that I will attack this endeavor with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. Jim Harbaugh

"Being an adult sucks. The only positives are weed, sex, and cars, and I have none of those right now." -Me

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hatred cannot drive out hatred; only love can do that." -Martin Luther King Jr.
   
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Re: Russiagate - December 16th 2016, 06:04 AM

For what it's worth, this issue could be completely ignored and there would STILL be a reason for the Electors to reject Trump. This is 8 minutes of all the debt he's in, including being 364 MILLION dollars in debt to DEUTSCHE (thats German, btw) Bank. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVECWZpzGkc That's totally against the emoluments clause of the Constitution. I mean, sure, our politicians are corrupt as hell, but they aren't 364 million in debt to foreign powers. Hell, even Clinton's "donations" from Saudi Arabia (I actually don't know the fine details behind that) are "technically" donations (let's not kid ourselves, its a legal bribe). But they aren't actual debt. If Russiagate isn't provable, THIS is right in everyone's face, but everyone will totally ignore it.
There's a solution. If you're a billionaire, pay your debts. It ISN'T hard... if you're a billionaire.
I hate everything about this election. A choice between Timon and Pumbaa, and that's the best America can come up with.


Wish I lived in Canada. UPDATE, NOV. 9th, 2016: This statement has become even more appropriate.
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Re: Russiagate - December 16th 2016, 11:02 AM

The thing with business and debts, is it rarely is as simple as many people think. One person can have multiple businesses running at the same time, in a "compartmentalized" fashion, using various legal tricks and limited liability laws (which almost every business uses) to insulate the losses of one business, from the losses of another, or any individual owner.

What limited liability does, is any losses one business makes, stay within that business. They're not directly passed onto other people, such as the actual owners of that businesses. The losses the business makes may lower share prices, and so shareholders (such as Trump perhaps) will feel the bite that way, but it's not the same... and technically a person could still say that Trump is in "debt", because the business he owns is in debt... when in fact it is his business that is in debt, not him per se.

And most businesses do this. It protects investments, prevents domino effects (one business collapsing leading to 10 others collapsing), prevents job losses, etc.

I'm saying this, because it isn't really a "small" detail at all. Someone can be the personal owner of multiple properties worth tens of millions of $, whilst also being the owner of a business that is $50 million in debt, due to limited liability. If the businesses collapses (or goes bankrupt), that person's properties are perfectly safe and untouchable regardless.

Also let's not forget that most big businesses are part-owned by several people: shareholders.

All that is, is a generic description of how the system works. The details vary a lot. How precisely this affects Trump down the line is a different debate. Point is... with limited liability, it is much harder to grab the business owner by the nuts and use his debts to leverage him. The people Trump is supposedly in "debt" to probably face the same problem, so I wouldn't say there's as big a risk of Trump being influenced this way as people make it seem. And the threat of impeachment. It's illegal to do favors like that so openly and directly.

.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



Last edited by BDF; December 16th 2016 at 06:02 PM.
   
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