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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
CanadaCraig Offline
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If BOYS were allowed to be BOYS - February 27th 2017, 01:26 PM


I hope you're having a good day!

I believe... if BOYS were allowed to be BOYS in school - if they were respected for who they ARE - fewer BOYS would become abusive to themselves and others. Far too often [as just one example] we are told that the solution to male violence against women is to teach boys to have more respect for girls. But that's not true. The solution [or a big part of it at least] is to teach boys to have far more respect for themselves. Boys need to be honored and praised for the role in society that comes naturally to them. That being, 'the one who comes to the defense of the more vulnerable'. [Their spouse - their kids - the elderly - anyone] Take that away - as 'we' have done - and boys and men begin see themselves as serving no real, valuable purpose.

Watch the following video by clicking on THIS and telling me what you think.

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Re: If BOYS were allowed to be BOYS - February 27th 2017, 02:04 PM

Well this is an interesting topic and as an early child educator, I have explored this topic myself. I do not think it is specifically a boy issue, in that girls cannot be themselves either. Girls are held to unrealistic expectations and in reality they tend to be more fluid than what is their gender roles. For example, in an early childhood education setting, there are girls who love to play and run around and need to get their energy out. But neither boys nor girls can do these things. On one hand, I can see how this might affect boys more, but on the other hand, I think that girls struggle with these things a lot too. And I am not entirely sure if there is a "more" of boys than girls. It's just different ways of coping. Girls might resort to teaching themselves or they're already nurturing of their emotions so if they do not read as much they're still nurturing their emotional side in some other way. Whereas boys are not given this opportunity at all.
I notice a common trend in that boys do not read, and do not nurture their emotional side, and are averted to things like poetry, theatre and stuff like that. And when they become adults, their behaviors tend to be a certain kind of behavior that can be seen as sexist, racist, insensitive or unempathetic. And at that point it really is. Anyone bottling up their emotions for that long is likely to turn into a prick. When my sister describes her guy friend as all these things of a typical "toxic masculinity" kind of guy. The first question I ask, is does he ever read? Why? because it's important for a person's inner life. The answer is always no, he doesnt read. He doesn't think reading is important. He is completely focused on math and scientific kind of work that he ignores and neglects his entire emotional side, and his entire imaginative side. He even makes fun of things like social sciences as "not real science". It's very common from the teenager and young adult guys that I know or have heard about. It's hard because they often experience bullying or abuse and would not cope with it and that would mix in with all of this too.
Boys might suffer more because the school system is designed to reward a certain set of skills and intelligence. There is a larger percentage of boys who are left handed/right brain dominant than girls. But that's part of it I think. Even boys who are not left handed may actually be right brained and have different learning styles. So I think the learning style is under attack, not the gender necessarily. Because I am a right brained/left handed person and I have struggled in school similarly to how a boy might. Only I was in an all girls school for the first 9 years of school.

Luckily, my father also learns differently. I learned from him how to self-educate and that helped me a whole lot.

I definitely agree with reading. I think there has been studies that boys are more likely to struggle with reading and/or be diagnosed with dyslexia. And I think reading is VERY important for a person's emotional development. It literally fosters empathy and if that's not fostered in other ways, it's a problem. But that's not just a boys issue.

I did not watch the whole video. I stopped at the part about the solution is to allow boys to read more. But also reading isn't the only thing we are lacking in our education system. We lack a lot of things, like art education, music education, physical education. Whatever happened to RECESS?!
These things do not happen enough in our schools. Anyone of any gender can benefit from educational changes. I think the education system screwed many of us over. Not just boys as in cis-gendered males.
Studies show that children who have ADHD can greatly benefit from physical activity. I think that as a general population of school-aged children, they can all benefit from this as there is a deficiency of it. The focus is more on test taking. And I dont think girls necessarily LIKE taking tests or learn better that way. But they are socialized to be more obedient. And they are more likely to stick to the rules. At least until a certain age because a lot of the revolutionary people were young adult women :P
But my point is that, female children are not necessarily happy in school. They just cope differently. I remember having to read the most boring-est books ever. And I didnt even read all of it, but my anxiety led me to staying up all night the night before and cramming some info in and then I would score pretty well on the test. I do not learn better that way, my coping mechanisms probably allowed me to survive in the school environment better. But the result? A lot of mental health problems developed. The anxiety doesnt go away after school. The restlessness, the sleep problems, the procrastination problems. The not being able to trust myself and my own interests. My shattered self esteem because of how disorganized I was and how much I struggled with certain things. Those dont go away. But maybe I was not the average kid I guess. I guess that's because I have sensory processing disorder and very likely have dyspraxia and/a mild form of dyslexia and that's something boys usually have more than girls. I learn differently than how it is taught in school. I also have mental health problems that developed from a very young age so while boys might do better in summer camps where there are no academics, I did not do well at all. I could not learn sports like others, I could not learn music and dance and art like others. And academic was more familiar for me but the way it was taught was not the best way either for me. I am also left handed and that alone makes me do things differently.
I went to an all girls school where everyone there behaved like the typical "school-aged boy" They were bouncing off the walls, eating a lot of sugar food and were very physical, always needing to run around, cant sit still, doing typical "horseplay" . And I was the only quiet one there but I came out with a lot of educational gaps. And looking back, I wish we werent punished so much for horseplay because if I felt it was okay to run around too, I might have done it more. I mean minus the sugar-y foods because I regret eating so much candy as a kid.
I was the goodie two shoes for the most part. On the plus side, we did have a lot more recess time than public schools. We didnt have a good quality recess necessarily because we did not have opportunity to do anything in the school building except play ball games on the roof (which I hated) and we had recess which can be taken away if the class "was bad and misbehaved" but if not, we had at least an hour and sometimes even two hours a day. And if we were punished and didnt have recess, the teacher would not be able to get through their lesson because the kids would be making the class time into their recess. It was just a constant sugar rush or SOMETHING. But these were all girls.

Last edited by ~Radio Flyer~; February 27th 2017 at 02:36 PM.
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Re: If BOYS were allowed to be BOYS - March 3rd 2017, 02:38 AM

Lol, I was just thinking to myself, "Please tell me this isn't PragerU..." I always think that because Chuck Prager himself is a corporate hack (funded by fracking giants) who wants people to vote for candidates not necessarily because they agree with the surface issues, but because the candidates will allow corporations to get away with murder.
Regardless, I actually found myself agreeing with a lot of what this video had to say. I think the premise is wrong- a lot of behaviors that boys and men have are reinforced by society and tradition, not just because they are different than girls- but they are right in that teachers are addressing the issues badly. For example, it's incredibly annoying to me that they are fazing out games at recess like tug of war or chicken. If you don't get hurt now you won't know how to deal with pain as an adult. Also, fazing out competition is sickening. Everyone needs to know competition, that way they can learn their strengths. That isn't to say you shouldn't go after bullying, but a lot of teachers are treating kids like toddlers. Another thing, I feel like teachers are often too critical of trivial matters such as the aggressive nature of kids' drawings or writing.
The thing I don't like about the video, however, is that their view of boys and girls is basically straight out of the 1950s. And they complain about girls being rewarded for behaving 'like girls' while boys are criticized for behaving 'like boys'. Wrong... the boys are being criticized for being crappy students. When I was in school, I was called a faggot for being a good student. The girls weren't. I paid attention and did all my work. That isn't a 'girly' trait. That's just being a good student. Did all the girls behave that way? No, and they were given bad grades for it. They were given the same Cs and Ds as the guys when they did similarly bad work. I would argue that we have a society problem that advocates brawn over brains for men while advocating brains over brawn for women. I'm not saying it's all nurture (for example, nurture doesnt account for increased testosterone in boys), but boys are typically nurtured to behave far differently than girls, often in ways that are incompatible with a good education.

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Re: If BOYS were allowed to be BOYS - March 4th 2017, 10:35 AM

I think this logic is flawed in its fundamental conception: in the idea that there should be this inherent dichomety in analysis. To be completely honest, while you so casually say that the role of the boy is to come to the aid of the vulnerable, most of the people who have come to my aid when I have been vulnerable, have been women.

Boys should be allowed to be boys, under which standard? I personally do not think that a society, much less a school, is qualified to write out what they believe is the standard action of a boy, and they have to define it before they can enforce it.

The concept of definition is a tough pill to swallow. Treat humans like humans.

Furthermore, I do not think this is the solution, but I do not think there is one silver bullet. Anti-Feminist YouTube creators freak the shit out of me.

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Re: If BOYS were allowed to be BOYS - March 4th 2017, 08:37 PM

As a guy who has just finished school and going on to university, I believe that "allowing boys to be boys" is a very nebulous thought. As RadioSerenade pointed out, definition is key.

However, in my experience, allowing boys to be boys made my early school years absolute HELL. I read a lot, I wasn't interested in sport at all. This made me somewhat of a freak to be ostracized and bullied. The staff didn't really take it seriously until my sixth year, when it became a serious issue at the school and we got a new headmaster and new methods of doing things. Even afterwards, I was still bullied all the way through to my last year at school because I was actually interested in learning and working. At my all-boys' school, if you were not part of the sporty crowd, you didn't really have much standing. Even the tip academics were praised less than the sports teams. This concept of masculinity and sport and competition is absolutely toxic and only entrenches the belief in their own superiority, which will lead to them abusing others. At my high school, the final year students bullied a young female teacher, and the only person who would actually report it was me, because all the others were so convinced of their superiority that they couldn't see hat they were really hurting her. And I blame the head,aster for his attitude of sport and competition above all else for this happening.

We do need to teach all children to respect themselves, but they also need to learn that there is a much wider world out there, and that everyone deserves respect and to be treated kindly. While they should be praised, they must also be taught moderation and humility. Competition is important, but it should be friendly. Competition above all else is evil. In the Barrett Values system about the maturation of organizations, competition is the second lowest value. The most important value is serving your community. More schools should enforce mandatory community service, so that children can experience what it truly means to change someone's life for the better. Competition, especially in sport, should be friendly. Maybe by mixing teams from different schools so that everyone just has fun playing the game instead of it being a winner-takes-all-my school-is-better-than-yours?

Anyway, that's my opinion based on my own life experiences of "boys being boys".
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Re: If BOYS were allowed to be BOYS - March 4th 2017, 11:51 PM

Like other users have said, "let boys be boys" really can be interpreted in different ways. When I saw it, I immediately thought of the phrase "boys will be boys" used to defend the actions of (usually young) boys. I've had that said to me several times. I work as a soccer referee, and once after telling a coach that one of his players was being unreasonably aggressive and had to be taken off the field, he responded that "boys will be boys" instead of addressing the problem. I was told that "boys will be boys" when I told my middle school teacher that a boy had been physically and verbally bullying me for a long period of time. Last summer, that boy made sexual advances on a friend of mine (who he knew wasn't interested in him) while she was drunk and couldn't consent. I know this isn't exactly what you mean by "let boys be boys," but it's the same mentality (that boys are inherently aggressive and there's nothing we can or should do about it).

That's the other problem I have with this argument – it assumes that all boys are naturally aggressive and protective, which just isn't true. This is one of the harmful stereotypes that boys face that contributes to "toxic masculinity." Some boys just aren't like that, and some only act like that because they're pushed to and told that that's how boys are supposed to act. Men and boys face unfair and unrealistic expectations (as women do) but the answer is to let them be themselves without encouraging typical masculine gender rolls. In addition, I'm not loving the claim that boys naturally come to the defense of "the vulnerable" as it perpetuates the idea that women are vulnerable and need protecting.

As for ending the trend of abusive men, we absolutely DO need to teach boys to respect women. Making boys more confident can also help, but boys still need to learn consent and respect from a young age (as do girls). If allowing boys to be themselves means letting them show their masculinity by being physically violent or rude, I have to disagree. Boys and girls have to be held to the same expectations from a young age, and boys shouldn't be taught that they can get away with these things just because they're boys.

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