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CanadaCraig Offline
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Grab Her?! - April 10th 2017, 05:27 AM

Hello!

I hope you're OK.

Would you give this man back his licence plate?

Click on THIS and let me know what you think.

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!


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Re: Grab Her?! - April 10th 2017, 06:24 AM

Yeah, I'd give him the plate back. Even if that wasn't his last name, just by principle of freedom of speech, I feel like anything that isn't libel, slander, or a threat of violence (probably a couple other exceptions I can't think of too) should be allowed under law. If people have a problem with it, they should go to him first.


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Re: Grab Her?! - April 10th 2017, 09:51 PM

I understand both points of view. Those who might see it might feel offended because they don't know that's his last name but at the same time how else do you expect people to react in this era? I'm not sure whether I'd give him it back to use necessarily but to keep in the house with other family stuff.




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Re: Grab Her?! - April 10th 2017, 09:56 PM

The original German spelling is, I believe Graßer. It's unfortunate that character cannot be printed on a license plate. He should appeal for that character to be allowed rather than creating a scene that will not end pretty. If he's worried about his image and family roots, then I would go with filing a complaint that allows him to use the original German spelling.
   
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Re: Grab Her?! - April 10th 2017, 10:55 PM

Offense is taken and not given, there is nothing wrong with his number plate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderlust. View Post
The original German spelling is, I believe Graßer. It's unfortunate that character cannot be printed on a license plate. He should appeal for that character to be allowed rather than creating a scene that will not end pretty. If he's worried about his image and family roots, then I would go with filing a complaint that allows him to use the original German spelling.
The original spelling is irrelevant, his name is spelt Grabher so he should be allowed that. Who are you (or anyone else) to deny him his identity?
   
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Re: Grab Her?! - April 10th 2017, 11:09 PM

I can see how the plate can be taken offensively, but it is his last name and he has every right to use it just like anyone else. If someone sees it and doesn't like it, it isn't hard to ignore it.


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Re: Grab Her?! - April 10th 2017, 11:10 PM

It sucks that in other contexts (e.g. if someone say it written as a name like Grabher) then people would understand that it is just a name. But in the context of a license plate, people are reading it as Grab space Her, which given violence against women, could understandably feel threatening to people. It really sucks in this context that that's in no way what it means, but what can we do? Like I said in other contexts, I think people would "get it" and it's really too bad this it's part of his identity that people are attacking instead of understanding it was just a misunderstanding about how people might read it




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Re: Grab Her?! - April 10th 2017, 11:57 PM

Honestly, the plate has been used by his family for 20 years with no issues. I would give it back. I mean, I've seen far worse things on licence plates and it's his last name.
   
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Re: Grab Her?! - April 11th 2017, 06:23 PM

But now I have to post something related to the topic to avoid getting a ticket... Anyway, with regards to what I said about free speech, anyone can theoretically get offended by anything so speech has to be free with only the few exceptions I mentioned. That way, the people in charge can't move the goal posts in order to punish people and views they don't like. After all, they wouldn't want that same thing happening to them if their opposition came into power.


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Re: Grab Her?! - April 11th 2017, 08:05 PM

I mean, yeah, he should get his license plate. By an American standard, it wouldn't matter what his intention behind it was-freedom of speech, he has the right to his offensive license plate. But it's about his last name anyway, so I don't really see what the problem is other than an initial misunderstanding on the application. Sure, people are going to misinterpret it, and I'm not sure why he's caring so much to have his last name on it if it's causing such a fuss (in these situations, I think of the scene from That's '70 Show where Kitty is explaining to Donna how marriage works and that you have to pick your battles to not get into fights. This doesn't seem like a battle worth fighting in my own opinion, but you know what, he's living his best life). But overall, yeah, he should get his license plate.


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Re: Grab Her?! - April 14th 2017, 12:03 AM

I have no dilemma over these sorts of disputes anymore. He should be allowed to have any license plate he likes, provided it meets whatever local road regulations there are concerning it (no Chinese characters, for example).

Outlawing these sorts of petty things on the basis of them "offending" someone, opens entire compost bins full of worms. The legal system is built like a brick wall. The bricks you lay today, set the foundations for whatever bricks people lay in the future.

It may seem like a "one-off" to the average person, but the reality is that if you start implementing laws that outlaw certain things on the basis of them being "offensive", then you're setting precedents for the future that could be exploited by unscrupulous governments to use a pretext such as this, to force people to take down news articles, simply because they're "offensive".

No thank you. We have already seen signs of this happening, usually under the authority of various organizations rather than the government itself. I'm glad to see that increasing numbers of people on the left are starting to see this as well. On that topic, I wanted to show this article as a beautiful example of complete failure to understand or respect the doctrine of freedom of speech:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/...il-free-speech

Two quotes from it, that basically give the bottom line of the article:

Quote:
Free speech is all well and good, but it should not be defended at the expense of minority groups.
Yes, it should. Because we already have seen people more than willing to sub-categorize themselves into increasingly narrowly defined "minority groups", where for example being "black" is no longer enough. Certain craptivists are now differentiating black people on the basis of just what shade of black people's skin color is (while accusing others of racism of course). Extrapolate this 30 years into the future, and just imagine the sort of crap that could result from giving "minority groups" special privileges regarding free speech, or special privileges regarding anything.

And there is something also very wrong about giving any group of people a "free pass", simply because they belong to the "right group". Yes, some are born wealthier than others. But legal systems in most developed nations are generally designed to protect individual rights, not ideas, or groups of people.

Mistakes were made in the past, and and they have generally been corrected in the law, through long and painful processes. It's a terribly bad idea to start regressing now in the opposite direction, in order to somehow "compensate" for the past. People move on, and most prefer to live in the present if you give them the opportunity to. When you start bashing some people for history that happened long before they were born, they retaliate like they did during the election.

Someone said to me in an argument on this topic once, that "you can't just punch and spit in someone's face, than say to them "move on, the past is the past"". Except... that you can. Compare this to a kid who gets bullied at school at the age of 8, grows up with a chip on his shoulder because of it, joins law enforcement, and harasses civilians to make himself feel "better". Or a kid who gets beaten up by his father at home, and then bullies others at school and other people throughout his life.

No, it is not acceptable. Other people will hit back, as they should. There's a difference between holding individuals responsible for crimes or morally evil acts, and somehow holding strangers responsible for crimes or morally evil acts, simply because they get ascribed to a certain "identity group" or "economic class" that is regarded by some to be the beneficiary of events hundreds of years ago. People just don't work that way. I don't care if my great-great-great-great grandfather's uncle's brother won a lottery 300 years ago. I don't even know if I have a great-great-great-great grandfather / uncle / brother whatever/t/f, etc. Most people don't know these things, and it's probably the single largest reason why most people simply can't relate to or feel responsible in this way for the acts of their ancestors.

Quote:
Nothing quells fear and hatred like making it illegal, and if we stop opposing progressive values then surely the constant fighting will stop too.
Lol... that's comparable to saying something like that "if you shoot the person disagreeing with you in the head, then the fighting will stop too". Just lol. Fucking hell. This is the most shameless and openly totalitarian statement I've read in a long while, that isn't someone trolling. This person appears serious.

And how precisely do you make feelings of "fear and hatred" (because those are feelings) illegal? Do you insert microchips in people's brains, that monitor their thought patterns and alert the local law enforcement when you see someone acting suspiciously who looks of Middle-Eastern decent? What if it turns out your suspicions were confirmed? What if he actually wasn't of Middle-Eastern decent? And what if you were simply wrong, and he was reaching for a pen in his back pocket, instead of a machete like you thought? Do you get prosecuted in all 3 of those scenarios, simply because you felt "fearful" for a brief moment in time? What if the government then chooses to make "fear of the government" illegal? This is galactically stupid.

Upon reflection now... this article seems so full of shit that I probably wasted my time thinking about it. But since I've already written this comment, I'll leave it.

.


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Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.



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Re: Grab Her?! - April 14th 2017, 07:54 AM

Christ, that article you linked is just bad. "Want equality? Curtail free speech." That title is almost inherently stupid. And once again, they don't seem to realize that the people whose speech is taken away can take power for themselves and fight back in the same way because the precedent has already been set.
Another one of the links I saw on that site was basically just as dumb: "Democracy doesnt work, we need a change". Change to what? An oligarchy? Autocracy? Theocracy? Communism? Humanity's been down basically every other road at some point, and its almost always worse. (I suppose we could put robots in charge)


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Re: Grab Her?! - April 17th 2017, 06:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MWF View Post
Another one of the links I saw on that site was basically just as dumb: "Democracy doesnt work, we need a change". Change to what? An oligarchy? Autocracy? Theocracy? Communism? Humanity's been down basically every other road at some point, and its almost always worse. (I suppose we could put robots in charge)
I actually read the article, and found it interesting and reasonable.

The author probably used a provocative title deliberately, to attract attention.

There is a deep-seated problem arising with respect to "traditional" democracy, and increasing globalism. With individual nations' interests becoming increasingly interdependent, which has led to the creation of institutions such as the EU, "traditional" democracy is under strain.

Globalisation is somewhat of an inevitable consequence of technology, internet, faster travel, etc. I'm not against it any more than I'm against the tide changing. However, I am against people attempting to speed up this process in order to further their own interests, which I do believe has been happening a lot. It's a textbook power play, where a person or organization forces the pace of change, in order to put themselves in control in the driving seat.

Some sort of system needs to be developed, which:

  • accommodates incremental globalization
  • limits the power of international governments and holds them accountable to average people
  • supports and respects the independence of local governing bodies
  • engages ordinary people internationally in political discussion
    (I think the last EU elections had about 40% voter turnout, which is pathetic by Western standards)

The American governing system is one which I think is the closest match today (although I'm only familiar with a small number of governing systems for comparison).

You have the individual states which pass local laws, and the federal government that brings it all together.
Quote:
Principle 21 - Strong local self-government is the keystone to preserving human freedom. "The way to have good and safe government is not to trust it all to one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to every one exactly the functions he is competent [to perform best]. - Thomas Jefferson
It's a country whose culture varies quite significantly across it's 300 million population, but remains reasonably united nonetheless. Although China and Russia also manage to hold their countries "together", the methods they use are "different"... and I don't really feel like living in a world with those kinds of governments ruling over me.

It should be remembered that it took several hundred years for America to establish a stable government. Although there are a lot of variables that differentiate it's context from that of the EU, the EU attempting to force the pace and achieve the same in the time of a few decades seems ridiculous when you think about it. Doing the same to individual countries with traditions and legal systems established over 2000 years... doesn't seem realistic. It's only been attempted in the past with the use of military force, and with mixed results.

Anyway, regardless of what path these developments take in the future... there will always be some opportunists looking for a weak link in the chain, ready to seize the moment when they believe it offers the highest probability of personal success. These kinds of people will always be around, and always have been. It's not a good enough reason to just bury our heads in the sand, lock our doors, and never leave our houses. I actually think it's the perfect reason to do precisely the opposite. When more people engage in political discussion, it's a lot harder for people like that to get away with lies or deception.

.



"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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