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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 05:00 PM

Brought up by someone in my thread on prisons.

What is your opinion on the death penalty. Back up your opinion with your reason, don't just say yes or no.

If you are for the death penalty, particularly as a deterrant, how do you respond to the suggestion it doesn't actually work.
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 05:06 PM

i'm for it. not just because it will act as a deterrant, but because it'll help to free up space in prisons. i know a lot of people say it doesn't work as a deterrant, well maybe not for everyone, but surely it'll put quite a few people off committing crimes if they think they could face death.

other than it being a deterrant, i think people who murder deserve to die. whether its a deterrant or not, who cares? i certainly don't. kill them, free some space up in prisons and let the victims family have at least some sense of justice.

also i think that life in prison should mean life, which it doesn't seem to at the moment.


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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 05:12 PM

I'm against it.

It isn't a deterrent, and on the contrary, (at least in the U.S.) states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than states without.

Freeing up space in prison isn't a valid reason. If you really want to free up space, get rid of laws that put people in for minor things, such as drugs. Or at least change the punishment of those more minor crimes.

It cost the tax payers a lot more to send someone to the death chambers than it does to keep them in prison for life.

Lastly, I don't believe the state has the right to kill anybody. It's hypocritical. "You killed him, so we're going to kill you."
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Originally Posted by xxEllexx View Post
but surely it'll put quite a few people off committing crimes if they think they could face death.
There is no evidence to suggest that it does. If at all, evidence shows the opposite effect.
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 05:19 PM

I don't think It's right at all. I don't think that human beings have the right to take the life of another human being. I think the way people did it back in the old days was good. If you killed someone, their family and friends would kill you. They knew that you'd done wrong, and you had to pay your debt. But this whole thing about the court killing people medically through court is pathetic. I'm almost sure their are people that are innocent of their so called crimes.

As a Christian, the example I can use, that I think many other people would agree with would be the story of Cain and Abel. Cain murdered his brother, and when God questioned him to why Abels blood called out from the ground, he knew that Cain had murdered him. God cast him out as a vagabond, and did not kill him. I think we should just confine these people for rest of their lives. Why not create some kind of system for these people where they just work the rest of their lives and contribute to society like some jails do?


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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 05:41 PM

So to deal with murder.... we should murder? Even if most murders are product of situation, and not-premeditated?
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 05:53 PM

I have no moral problems with the idea. I think we should go for whichever is cheaper or more efficient.


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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 05:54 PM

I'm undecided on the death penalty. The only time I see it as a fit punishment is for mass murderers. Multiple offending rapists should get life+castration. So, I could care less if multiple offending murderers get death or life, but anything else, I'm completely against, because there are other punishments that work for other crimes.




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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert View Post
So to deal with murder.... we should murder? Even if most murders are product of situation, and not-premeditated?
Exactly. I mean, I'm not going to blame people who take it into their own hands. I think that emotions like that might not be able to be sustained. Pretend something unspeakable happened to your son/daughter of mom/dad. How would you react?

But when there is a legal system that executes their society based on mistakes... What is that supposed to do? "You're a bad boy so we're going to kill you!" That's twisted.

I watched the Green Mile recently, remember when John Coffey (Like the drink buy spelled differently ) is executed at the end... It was terribly sad.


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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 06:11 PM

Well if someone commits murder I'm not really sure on it...
1. Because the murderer took someone's life so shouldn't deserve to live their selves.
2. But we're killing someone to show that killing is wrong so doesn't that make us hypocritical?

I think I'm for it for rape because in my opinion that's worse than murder. Treason I'm not sure about because I don't really have any reasons for or against it.


   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx View Post
Exactly. I mean, I'm not going to blame people who take it into their own hands. I think that emotions like that might not be able to be sustained. Pretend something unspeakable happened to your son/daughter of mom/dad. How would you react?

But when there is a legal system that executes their society based on mistakes... What is that supposed to do? "You're a bad boy so we're going to kill you!" That's twisted.

I watched the Green Mile recently, remember when John Coffey (Like the drink buy spelled differently ) is executed at the end... It was terribly sad.
My comment was mostly directed at Elle

Although I think mitigating circumstances, such as an emotional response to someone killing your loved one, should be taken into account in a trial, I don't think it should be a complete excuse. Mostly as allowing emotions to excuse you totally of a crime makes it harder to enforce order.
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 06:15 PM

Nope I am very much against the death penalty. It is pretty much terrible, wrong and backwards no matter which way you look at it.
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 06:18 PM

Well, I'm against it for various reasons...

I think that killing anyone is wrong (unless in self defence) and so therefore killing a murderer is hypocritical.

Prison is just as good a deterrent as death, if not better because many people would rather loose their life than spend it having a miserable time.

It will upset the family and friends of the criminal more if they die than if they go to prison.

It denies the criminal the chance to be rehabilitated.
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert View Post
So to deal with murder.... we should murder? Even if most murders are product of situation, and not-premeditated?
yes.......


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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 06:57 PM

any particular reason?
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 07:14 PM

I'm against it purely because I can't see the point in killing someone for killing someone. It's a bit hypocritical. What the murderer did was wrong, yes, but killing them because of it is also wrong.

And plus, the amount of time some people are on death row is just ridiculous. If you're going to kill them, just kill them. And the death penalty can't be saving money, it's not saving anybody money by keeping them on death row for 20 years, and then killing them. You might as well just have them in prison and leave them there, you know? And I really don't think it's worth the risk of killing an innocent person.

So yeah, I'm against it. I think life, as in actual life, not 15-20 years, in prison is a heck of a lot better than killing them.
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert View Post
any particular reason?
because if someone i cared about was killed i'd want the person to pay for what they did - and i think the death penalty is a good solution.

no time in prison is a harsh enough punishment for killing someone else.

to me, their reason for killing is irrelevent. the fact remains that they killed someone. whether it was premeditated or not doesn't matter.


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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 07:26 PM

For practical reasons, I'm against it.

I'm sure you've all heard this, but it costs more to put someone to death than to just keep them in prison for life. And I don't know about you, but I don't want my tax money spent just to put some jackass to death. Not worth it, in my opinion.

Studies have also shown that the death penalty isn't a great deterrence. People will commit these crimes anyway, regardless.

And I don't think the state should have the right to decide who lives or dies....I dunno, it all just seems off to me thinking how much power they have.

One more thing: All you need to do is look at the eight amendment. Part of it says that no one shall suffer "cruel or unusual punishment." So is death not cruel and unusual punishment? To me, it clearly is....How the death penalty gets by as constitutional I have no idea..


On a personal note: If someone greatly hurts someone I care about (rape or murder), then I'm going to want that person dead. But again, I don't think this should be put forth into law. Just my personal feelings here..
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lugez View Post
One more thing: All you need to do is look at the eight amendment. Part of it says that no one shall suffer "cruel or unusual punishment." So is death not cruel and unusual punishment? To me, it clearly is....How the death penalty gets by as constitutional I have no idea..
Just like the bible (which I don't believe in) has different interpretations, so does the constitution. In some people's minds, death is not cruel and unusual for what they did.




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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 07:35 PM

I lean toward the anti-death penalty side because it just seems wrong to take a life. However, I'm not against it enough that I would protest it (as long as it's only for those who can't be rehabilitated).


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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 07:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxEllexx View Post
because if someone i cared about was killed i'd want the person to pay for what they did - and i think the death penalty is a good solution.
So it's only about you? Have you ever considered the criminal's family? Do you have any idea how difficult it would be for a mother and father to know that their son or daughter will be put to death on a given date? Why should their family suffer too? You're making things worse than they already are.

Many, many families of murder victims are against the death penalty. Killing the murderer doesn't bring back the dead. It's revenge, paid for by the tax payers. Screw that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxEllexx View Post
no time in prison is a harsh enough punishment for killing someone else.
And the death penalty solves this problem? All you're doing is letting them out of their misery earlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxEllexx View Post
to me, their reason for killing is irrelevent. the fact remains that they killed someone. whether it was premeditated or not doesn't matter.
Of course it matters. State of mind is huge in determining a murder charge, and sentencing. People do stupid things in the heat of the moment. You can't honestly compare somebody who cracked during the heat of the moment to a cold blooded serial killer.
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 07:48 PM

I don't think that anyone should have the right to take someone's life, no matter what they've done. I value human life and I don't believe in killing except in self-defense, no matter the situation. For a judge or jury to be able too choose which criminals live or die feels like far too much power.

Firstly, killing someone as a punishment for killing people is hypocritical, and although it is a cliche, two wrongs don't make a right.

Also, many criminals may prefer a death sentence to spending life in prison. It would be like taking the easy way out for them.

Another reason that I do not approve of the death sentence at all is that some of the people who have committed these terrible crimes (murder, rape, etc) are actually very messed up or mentally ill individuals who could be treated and reformed.

Finally, I don't think that appeasing a grieving family is a good enough excuse to put someone to death. When people are so emotionally charged, they will make decisions that they wouldn't otherwise make. After the emotions die down a bit, I wouldn't be surprised if they regretted the death of the criminal, despite what was done to their loved one.
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 08:24 PM

I'm all for the death penalty. Only in select circumstances though. It depends if it pre-meditated, the health condition of the person, the exact situation and so forth. But what's the point to keep someone alive who has a chance of getting out and harming people again?

Yes, you solve murder with murder. If the original victim 100% didn't deserve it, as in they did nothing to get the person to murder them, they're different than someone who just killed 10 people.

Another thing that has always bothered me, is the more people you have in prison, not even a money issue, is how much chaos they have a chance of causing. Like we watched a movie in Philosophy about how this guy went to prison, and got paralyzed from a prison-fight.

But no, I don't think like, you stole a pack of gum you should die. I mean like, repetitive rapists, serial killers, etc.



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  (#23 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TopOfTheWorld View Post
So it's only about you? Have you ever considered the criminal's family? Do you have any idea how difficult it would be for a mother and father to know that their son or daughter will be put to death on a given date? Why should their family suffer too? You're making things worse than they already are.

Many, many families of murder victims are against the death penalty. Killing the murderer doesn't bring back the dead. It's revenge, paid for by the tax payers. Screw that. And the death penalty solves this problem? All you're doing is letting them out of their misery earlier.Of course it matters. State of mind is huge in determining a murder charge, and sentencing. People do stupid things in the heat of the moment. You can't honestly compare somebody who cracked during the heat of the moment to a cold blooded serial killer.
i couldn't disagree more.

no, it's not just about me.. but i think the victims families feelings are more important than those of the murderer. i don't think it's particularly great that the victims families suffer, but oh well. their son/daughter shouldn't have gone out and killed someone then.

many families of victims are against the death penalty, i don't doubt that.. but many are for it as well.

and no, i don't think state of mind matters. the way i see it is, a murderer is a murderer. don't break the law and kill someone if you wouldn't be prepared to die yourself - simple as.


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Re: Death Penalty - June 18th 2009, 11:56 PM

I am against the death penalty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert View Post
So to deal with murder.... we should murder? Even if most murders are product of situation, and not-premeditated?
No. That's saying, "You killed them, so to teach you that killing is wrong, we're going to kill you."

My uncle was put to death in the late 50's, early 60's.He was not mentally stable, and yeah he killed some people, but I will always be against the death penalty. It's just not right.


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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 12:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxEllexx View Post
no, it's not just about me.. but i think the victims families feelings are more important than those of the murderer. i don't think it's particularly great that the victims families suffer, but oh well. their son/daughter shouldn't have gone out and killed someone then.
I beg your pardon? The victims family is more important? Sorry, but that's a really ungracious and rude thing to say. Both families will have suffered a loss due to the death penalty, instead of just one family (the victims).

No, not "oh well."
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxEllexx View Post
and no, i don't think state of mind matters. the way i see it is, a murderer is a murderer. don't break the law and kill someone if you wouldn't be prepared to die yourself - simple as.
So mentally ill patients should get the death penalty if they murder?

You're oversimplifying things. There are various murder charges for a reason. You can't lump every type of murderer into one category.

Are you saying that a serial killer is on the same level as, say, some guy who walked in on his wife having an affair with somebody and lost it?
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 12:37 AM

I am for it. As a matter of fact in the new elections of Mexico(July 5) there is a party that is for death penalty for kipnappers and rapist and I'm voting for it. This are big issues in Mexico and everyone is tried of people kipnapping for money and then killing the person, or raping them.
Morally, I know its not right to kill or killing, but people here are just fed up with those two issues.


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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 09:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TopOfTheWorld View Post
I beg your pardon? The victims family is more important? Sorry, but that's a really ungracious and rude thing to say. Both families will have suffered a loss due to the death penalty, instead of just one family (the victims).

No, not "oh well." So mentally ill patients should get the death penalty if they murder?
yes, they are more important. i don't really care if you think it's rude, to me it's a fact. both families may have suffered loss, but at least the victims family could have some sense of justice instead of thinking that the person who killed their love one is having a pretty ok existance in prison.

hmm.. yes, oh well. that's exactly how i feel about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TopOfTheWorld View Post
You're oversimplifying things. There are various murder charges for a reason. You can't lump every type of murderer into one category.

Are you saying that a serial killer is on the same level as, say, some guy who walked in on his wife having an affair with somebody and lost it?
i can't? says who?

and yes, that's exactly what i'm saying.


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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 09:20 AM

I think in certain circumstances it should be allowed. If it was proven that "yes they did do it" and NO doubts at all, yes the death penalty should be allowed.

Why should they sit in our prisons, no bills, being fed, have luxiouries and eventually get out to do it again.

Prison is not a deterrent either. I think it must put some people off crime. Yes Stats might not show, but don't you think it will scare some people?

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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura View Post
I think in certain circumstances it should be allowed. If it was proven that "yes they did do it" and NO doubts at all, yes the death penalty should be allowed.

Why should they sit in our prisons, no bills, being fed, have luxiouries and eventually get out to do it again.

Prison is not a deterrent either. I think it must put some people off crime. Yes Stats might not show, but don't you think it will scare some people?
yeah exactly, even if the stats don't prove it.. it's ridiculous to think that it won't at least put some people off.


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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 10:05 AM

Hi Tegan!!

I hope you're OK.

I am FOR the death penalty. But only [usually] in cases where a person actually planned on murdering someone. And there's a difference between 'murdering someone' and 'killing someone'. And the difference can basically be summed up on one word - 'intent'. But even THAT isn't set in stone. IF - for instance - a person is abusing someone and their victim ends up dying as a result of that abuse - I would count that as murder. [Whether or not they intended for their victim to actually die]

As for the suggestion [That many cling to as one of the reasons to be against the death penalty] that the death penalty is NOT a deterrent - I could care less. In fact - I don't think the 'deterrent argument' should be given any weight whatsoever when it comes to whether or not a punishment fits the crime. How a person is punished for what they have done should have NOTHING to do with how that punishment might influence someone else. IF 'Timmy' murders someone should his punishment be MORE severe because it might keep 'Bobby' from following in his footsteps?! OR less severe because it might NOT?

I also do NOT always believe that mental illness should exempt someone from the death penalty. [In spite of the fact that it could sometimes be argued that there was no 'intent' to murder]

What I often find amusing [confusing?] is how willingly SOME people would forever remove from someone their freedom by locking them up for LIFE in a prison and yet consider the death penalty cruel and unusual punishment. I think it's quite cruel to lock someone up in a 'cage' [basically] for the rest of their lives?!

And when it come to rehabilitating someone - would you really be comfortable with the idea of one of your sons or daughters marrying a person who went on a murderous rampage 20 years ago but NOW has a 'certificate' declaring them 'rehabilitated'?

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 11:02 AM

I'm kind of torn really, but for the most part, I'm against the idea of the death penalty. I find that with capital punishment, there is always a chance of an innocent person losing their life for a crime which they did not commit. At least with just sending people to prison, if someone is innocent they are at least allowed to live out their lives in prison. I think if the death penalty is allowed, there should be very strict qualifications for who can be executed.

The death penalty may be acceptable in some situations, but only some. I believe that individuals who are repeat offenders and could be considered dangerous to society may be eligible. So essentially, serial killers, serial rapists and people like that.

I don't think anyone should be sentenced to death for a first time offense. And certainly not if the killing was not premeditated or intentional.





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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhySoSerious? View Post
I'm kind of torn really, but for the most part, I'm against the idea of the death penalty. I find that with capital punishment, there is always a chance of an innocent person losing their life for a crime which they did not commit. At least with just sending people to prison, if someone is innocent they are at least allowed to live out their lives in prison. I think if the death penalty is allowed, there should be very strict qualifications for who can be executed.

The death penalty may be acceptable in some situations, but only some. I believe that individuals who are repeat offenders and could be considered dangerous to society may be eligible. So essentially, serial killers, serial rapists and people like that.

I don't think anyone should be sentenced to death for a first time offense. And certainly not if the killing was not premeditated or intentional.


That's the kind of reasons I was meaning in my post.
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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 11:45 AM

I don't think our government should have the ability to put someone to death. Infinite jail time - sure, but no one should really be killed in legal procedures.


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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 11:48 AM

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Originally Posted by Double X View Post
I don't think our government should have the ability to put someone to death. Infinite jail time - sure, but no one should really be killed in legal procedures.

Infinite Jail time?
To keep them in better conditions than INNOCENT people worldwide?
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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 11:51 AM

Why are you so keen to put someone to death when they could be reformed? Surely a reformed and repentant criminal serves society better than a dead one? Both economically and morally. No matter that they may have 100% certainly committed the crime (things are rarely so clrear cut in reality) if there is a chance that they could be reformed.
   
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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 11:54 AM

I'm not "keen to put people to death" as you put it. However I don't think that serial murderers/rapists CAN be reformed.
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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 11:55 AM

The U.S. cannot really be held responsible for other people in worse conditions. Not infinite, but you know what I mean, something like 150 years of jail time.


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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 12:08 PM

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Originally Posted by Double X View Post
The U.S. cannot really be held responsible for other people in worse conditions. Not infinite, but you know what I mean, something like 150 years of jail time.

I wasn't meaning the U.S in particular, as I don't think the thread was directed towards any part in the world directly.
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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 12:14 PM

Sorry, that was so stereotypically self centered American thinking.


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Re: Death Penalty - June 19th 2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxEllexx View Post
yeah exactly, even if the stats don't prove it.. it's ridiculous to think that it won't at least put some people off.
If you are going to kill someone, generally you'd assume, at least for most, that the individual is thinking they are going to get caught. In fact, as I said, a lor of murder happen in the heat of the moment, when these thoughts don't pop into mind... The death penalty would only deter if the individual percieved it was likely they'd get caught, and that they wouldn't mind a jail sentence and record anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaCraig View Post
Hi Tegan!!

I hope you're OK.

I am FOR the death penalty. But only [usually] in cases where a person actually planned on murdering someone. And there's a difference between 'murdering someone' and 'killing someone'. And the difference can basically be summed up on one word - 'intent'. But even THAT isn't set in stone. IF - for instance - a person is abusing someone and their victim ends up dying as a result of that abuse - I would count that as murder. [Whether or not they intended for their victim to actually die]
I think this is a more reasonable response then many, and I think it's important to take into account things like intent, regardless of whether they are going to be put to death or not.

Quote:
As for the suggestion [That many cling to as one of the reasons to be against the death penalty] that the death penalty is NOT a deterrent - I could care less. In fact - I don't think the 'deterrent argument' should be given any weight whatsoever when it comes to whether or not a punishment fits the crime. How a person is punished for what they have done should have NOTHING to do with how that punishment might influence someone else. IF 'Timmy' murders someone should his punishment be MORE severe because it might keep 'Bobby' from following in his footsteps?! OR less severe because it might NOT?
I only mentionned deterrants because its a common argument presented by people, it was more in hopes of involving a larger range of people into the discussion. I agree though, it shouldn't make a difference.

Quote:
I also do NOT always believe that mental illness should exempt someone from the death penalty. [In spite of the fact that it could sometimes be argued that there was no 'intent' to murder]
What would be an example of someone who should be killed regardless of mental illness?

Quote:
What I often find amusing [confusing?] is how willingly SOME people would forever remove from someone their freedom by locking them up for LIFE in a prison and yet consider the death penalty cruel and unusual punishment. I think it's quite cruel to lock someone up in a 'cage' [basically] for the rest of their lives?!
I'm not actually for life imprisonment. Particularly in the Western sense. After looking up a bit on Japanese prisons, to see how they reform people, although they have shorter sentences, I think that's actually much more like punishment then anything in the UK. They have very strict rules, harsh reactions to them being broken, and then making the prisoners work 8 hour days, and so fourth. Admittedly those conditions I would not agree with for lesser criminals, but it'd certainly be more of a punishment then life in jail or death.

I didn't say I think the death penalty is cruel. I think it's hypocritical, double standards and perhaps even immoral. It doesn't benefit society particularly at all... and the idea of revenge is something that makes me uncomfortable. Its not out of sympathy for killers really.

Quote:
And when it come to rehabilitating someone - would you really be comfortable with the idea of one of your sons or daughters marrying a person who went on a murderous rampage 20 years ago but NOW has a 'certificate' declaring them 'rehabilitated'?

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!
Don't really intend to have kids in the near future, however, I've come to the conclusion that as a parent, my role is to guide and bring my children up, and aid in their development. Therefore, if I've done my job right, I'd hope if my kid intended to marry such a person, they are a good enough judge of character and smart enough to spend time getting to know someone, to trust them, and not just go off of a silly little certificate. If it was apparent the person may still be a danger, then yes, I'd be uncomfortable, but it's all situational, and would depends on a range of things.

At the same time, I believe drugs should be legalised, or at least decriminalised, yet I wouldn't be comfortable doing heroin, nor would I be comfortable with my child doing it probably. Attitudes vary on the who, what, when and where.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura View Post
I'm not "keen to put people to death" as you put it. However I don't think that serial murderers/rapists CAN be reformed.
Some possibly could be, would you even want to try first, or just assume otherwise (think the rape thing is more likely for this)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura View Post
I wasn't meaning the U.S in particular, as I don't think the thread was directed towards any part in the world directly.
Correct, its more about the concept.

Everything on this site is too ameri-centric
   
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