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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:00 AM

So, I've posted these points at least 5 times in the last week and NOBODY has addressed them. I'm getting pretty darn tired of that! You can't keep claiming homosexuality is not natural unless you BACK IT UP! So please, refute the points below or we'll all know you're wrong.

-the nucleus of the hypothalamus which triggers male-typical sex behaviour was much smaller in the gay men and looked more like that in women.

-the corpus callosum, in the brain also, was bigger in gays than straight men.

- a new study finds drugs or genetic manipulation can turn the homosexual behavior of fruit flies on and off within a matter of hours.

- an identical twin of a gay person is twice as likely to be gay as a fraternal twin

- lesbians have finger lengths and blink reflexes that are more similar to those of men than of women

- a man is more likely to be gay the more older brothers he has because of readjusted hormonal balances in his mother’s womb

- straight women and gay men are attracted to a pheromone produced in the sweat of men. Gay women and straight men are attracted to a pheromone produced in the urine of women. This study was done using PET and MRI scans, looking at areas of the brain that reveal sexual arousal, not the opinions of the participants. It was also published in a very prestigious journal, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

- Being gay occurs in many animals, most notably penguins in zoos that mate for life and will not convert to heterosexuality, no matter how many fabulous looking female penguins are presented.

- There are correlations to being left handed.

- If two brothers are gay, there is a higher rate of other family members being gay.

Sources:
Gay Line Wellington
Do We Choose to be Gay


(for the record i'm not claiming it is purely biological, i just think these are some important points that needed to be addressed)


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:01 AM

It may be partly biological, but don't you also think that society can turn people gay? Because I do.


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx View Post
It may be partly biological, but don't you also think that society can turn people gay? Because I do.
It's possible, but it looks like the biological part plays a pretty significant role. I mean they've studied kids that have grown up in gay families and boys who have been smothered by their mothers a lot and stuff, and those situations didn't make the kids gay. Some people who have a really bad experience dating the opposite sex sometimes might "turn" gay, but I don't think that's really the same, and I don't think it's very common.


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khadra View Post
It's possible, but it looks like the biological part plays a pretty significant role. I mean they've studied kids that have grown up in gay families and boys who have been smothered by their mothers a lot and stuff, and those situations didn't make the kids gay. Some people who have a really bad experience dating the opposite sex sometimes might "turn" gay, but I don't think that's really the same, and I don't think it's very common.
I actually think It's very common for society to turn an individual gay. I, personally, don't believe that the biological part plays in some much as our everyday lives do. Someone might not even know they are gay until they do something. So then how Is it biological? If It's biological, doesn't that mean that you would know from birth?


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx View Post
I actually think It's very common for society to turn an individual gay. I, personally, don't believe that the biological part plays in some much as our everyday lives do. Someone might not even know they are gay until they do something. So then how Is it biological? If It's biological, doesn't that mean that you would know from birth?
All the gay people I know knew that they were gay before they "did anything". Also, on all the documentaries I've seen they always say they knew from a young age. The ones who didn't already know could possibly have been brought up thinking it was wrong to be attracted to the same sex and were in reality just ignoring or supressing their real feelings.

How do you think society turns a person gay? Do you have any studies to show me that this could be the case or even personal examples?


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:15 AM

Quote:
If It's biological, doesn't that mean that you would know from birth?
When you were 2, did you realize you were straight? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't even start thinking of attraction to either sex until I hit puberty.


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:17 AM

Yeah I have to agree with Holly on this one society tends to turn people gay. I have noticed that gay population have been increasing thoughout time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizabella View Post
When you were 2, did you realize you were straight? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't even start thinking of attraction to either sex until I hit puberty.
No, I started to notice I like guys way before I hit puberty... I had a boyfriend in pre kinder, i even have some picture with him.


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Last edited by Pelios; June 19th 2009 at 04:19 AM. Reason: Multiple posts have been merged automatically.
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:19 AM

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Originally Posted by Grizabella View Post
When you were 2, did you realize you were straight? Because I'm pretty sure I didn't even start thinking of attraction to either sex until I hit puberty.
I've always liked males. Even before I did anything with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khadra View Post
All the gay people I know knew that they were gay before they "did anything". Also, on all the documentaries I've seen they always say they knew from a young age. The ones who didn't already know could possibly have been brought up thinking it was wrong to be attracted to the same sex and were in reality just ignoring or supressing their real feelings.

How do you think society turns a person gay? Do you have any studies to show me that this could be the case or even personal examples?

There are people on TH who think they are gay based on situations. That's why they are confused, because some of them were not gay to start out with, so how can It only be biological? It doesn't make sense to me.


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Last edited by Algernon; June 19th 2009 at 04:20 AM. Reason: Multiple posts have been merged automatically.
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:30 AM

It's not only biological, there is a biological component to it. What makes no sense is completely disregarding the scientific evidence support the biological theory.


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:33 AM

So explain how one momment someone can be straight, but because of a bad relationship they decide they become gay/lesbian.?


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx View Post
There are people on TH who think they are gay based on situations. That's why they are confused, because some of them were not gay to start out with, so how can It only be biological? It doesn't make sense to me.
The key word there is think. Who is to say they are really gay? Or perhaps they are bisexual? No offense, but teenagers aren't the best source to use to determine this kind of thing. A lot of teenagers question their sexuality and experiment and whatever, but few are actually gay.

There are plenty of cases of gay people who knew from the time they were little, just like straight people. Also like straight people, there are lots that didn't have any attraction until they reached puberty. So you see it's not something that just pertains to gay people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGE View Post
So explain how one momment someone can be straight, but because of a bad relationship they decide they become gay/lesbian.?
Well, my theory is that they were either already bisexual or they aren't truly attracted to the same sex.


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Last edited by Khadra; June 19th 2009 at 04:42 AM. Reason: Multiple posts have been merged automatically.
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:45 AM

Most of these are not causations but rather correlations that occur even in people who are not homosexual. I don't think it's biological, I think it's both, nature and nurture. For the nurture side, you can turn to good old Freudian psychology.

Before you continue, using the Kinsey Scale or similar devices would be appropriate to understand the continuum of sexual orientation.

You gave some correlations, including the famous 1996 study by LeVay. However, in his study, along with the APA, both of them admit that homosexuality is not clear-cut biological nor a clear-cut choice.

There is evidence suggesting that parental abuse is correlated with homosexuality in adults. One paper on this, among many others, is A Review of the Short-Term Effects of Child Sexual Abuse by Beitchman, Zucker, Hood, DaCosta & Akman (1991).

I say that it is both, nature and nurture. Are the two equal in contributions? I don't know and research seems unsure on this also.
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 04:54 AM

The way I see it, whether it's biological or due to their environment, people don't choose to be gay (99.99% of the time), sooo why can't they get married again?


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 05:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santeria View Post
The way I see it, whether it's biological or due to their environment, people don't choose to be gay (99.99% of the time), sooo why can't they get married again?

Why did you have to bring the marriage thing to this topic. The OP asked if homosexucality is biological....
There are like 50 other threads to go discuss that.


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx View Post
I actually think It's very common for society to turn an individual gay. I, personally, don't believe that the biological part plays in some much as our everyday lives do. Someone might not even know they are gay until they do something. So then how Is it biological? If It's biological, doesn't that mean that you would know from birth?
This.

Ok, we live in a society where it, cultural, family, friends, and all your input basically, effectively expects you are going to be straight. You therefore expect you are going to be straight, and some people continue to expect this, and think this, until they are challenged with a situation that makes them stop and think 'Wait, am I really straight?' It's an issue of confusion, based out of variating from social norms. Of course people are going to get confused.

And then about the knowing from birth thing.... generally, we get sexual attraction at puberty. People can argue till they are blue in the face about liking people before puberty, but it is of a different nature, its generally more like close friendships. Cognitively, in line with developmental psychology, these things of romantic partners comes in adolescene.... childhood things tend to probably be more based on modelling the behaviour of older people they've seen, the tv they've watched, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mexico View Post
Yeah I have to agree with Holly on this one society tends to turn people gay. I have noticed that gay population have been increasing thoughout time.

No, I started to notice I like guys way before I hit puberty... I had a boyfriend in pre kinder, i even have some picture with him.
See my above comment about the boyfriend thing.

Increasing gay population? Um.... couldn't it just be that more people are out, and there's more of an enviroment to explore your feelings, with less guilt and shame?

Though in animal populations, homosexuality sometimes occurs more often, as a population buffer when the population is too big for the resources... which is pretty much where we are going with the human race. Infact, homosexuality in the animal kingdom has various uses. I only have time to link a short article right now:

Homosexual behaviour widespread in animals according to new study - Telegraph

That being said, animal studies do not nessecarily reflect humans, but they do suggest some interesting ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx View Post
I've always liked males. Even before I did anything with them.



There are people on TH who think they are gay based on situations. That's why they are confused, because some of them were not gay to start out with, so how can It only be biological? It doesn't make sense to me.
So you desired to have sex with boys when you were 8?

But as I said, most of us had the expectation we would be straight. Even when I was getting sexual thoughts about girls, I convinced myself I was straight, I only stopped doing that, because I fell in love with a girl, who came on to me, and I was blown away by it... and I couldnt lie to myself... I loved her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGE View Post
So explain how one momment someone can be straight, but because of a bad relationship they decide they become gay/lesbian.?
It may either make them come to a realisation they were never really into the opposite sex, or they just aren't gay, they just say they are. I've never really meet an 18+ gay individual in that situation. I don't assume it's all that common.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
Most of these are not causations but rather correlations that occur even in people who are not homosexual. I don't think it's biological, I think it's both, nature and nurture. For the nurture side, you can turn to good old Freudian psychology.
Freud is not a good example for explaining the nurture side. He is out dated, largely discredited in various areas (though neo-Freudian theorists may have reformed versions), and his theories are based on some sex obsessed approach to a handful of case studies of women in a specific culture and situation, so therefore lacking in any real empirical evidence. He was also in a time where homosexuality was considered psychologically intrinsically disordered, whereas modern psychology doesn't suggest this at all.

But yes, most agree it is a mix of nature (biological) and nurture. Just about every facet of our cognitive and behavioural processes are a mix of these.

Quote:
You gave some correlations, including the famous 1996 study by LeVay. However, in his study, along with the APA, both of them admit that homosexuality is not clear-cut biological nor a clear-cut choice.
Um.... I disagree, I'm pretty sure it was said it was clear-cut if it was the structure of the brain causing the attractions/behaviour, or the bahviour causing the difference in the brain.... I'm pretty sure there wasn't mention of choice. But if I'm wrong, please, correct me with a quote from him.

Quote:
There is evidence suggesting that parental abuse is correlated with homosexuality in adults. One paper on this, among many others, is A Review of the Short-Term Effects of Child Sexual Abuse by Beitchman, Zucker, Hood, DaCosta & Akman (1991).
There's also some suggestion any increased level of abuse is due to the gender non-conformity of gays.

SpringerLink - Journal Article

Also, looking at the abstract of your mentionned study, it was only women, and it didnt say they were more likely to identify as gay, it said engage in behaviours:

Quote:
Adult women with a history of childhood sexual abuse show greater evidence of sexual disturbance or dysfunction, homosexual experiences in adolescence or adulthood, depression, and are more likely than nonabused women to be revictimized.
Men just had sexual dysfunction, according to the abstract. Then there is conflicting data that says the reverse. Though I figure it's worth pointing out that the majority of American men have at some point in adolescene, have had a gay experience. I'll double check the actual numbers when I go home and look at my book.

Quote:
I say that it is both, nature and nurture. Are the two equal in contributions? I don't know and research seems unsure on this also.
There is a least a strong biological component. For example, this quote shows a link that generally suggests inheritability:

Quote:
- an identical twin of a gay person is twice as likely to be gay as a fraternal twin
This isn't so likely to be particularly nurture:

Quote:
- straight women and gay men are attracted to a pheromone produced in the sweat of men. Gay women and straight men are attracted to a pheromone produced in the urine of women. This study was done using PET and MRI scans, looking at areas of the brain that reveal sexual arousal, not the opinions of the participants. It was also published in a very prestigious journal, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
And this shows that at least in some lower animals it is 100% biological:

Quote:
- a new study finds drugs or genetic manipulation can turn the homosexual behavior of fruit flies on and off within a matter of hours.
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 05:14 PM

Invert

No, but I was a little girl that has crushes on little boys, like little boys have crushes on little girls. I don't desire to be with a women. I don't find boobs and vagina attractive. I had P.E. in high school and didn't get all hot when I watched them undress. Honestly? What the hell am I supposed to do with a girl? Toys and oral. A guy can give me a hell of a lot more than any girl can. So you're saying that in order for me to be straight, I have to want to sleep with my boyfriend?

I didn't really get the point with your response to my first quote, are you agreeing with me. It sounded like it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Khadra View Post
The key word there is think. Who is to say they are really gay? Or perhaps they are bisexual? No offense, but teenagers aren't the best source to use to determine this kind of thing. A lot of teenagers question their sexuality and experiment and whatever, but few are actually gay.

There are plenty of cases of gay people who knew from the time they were little, just like straight people. Also like straight people, there are lots that didn't have any attraction until they reached puberty. So you see it's not something that just pertains to gay people.



Well, my theory is that they were either already bisexual or they aren't truly attracted to the same sex.

I'm glad someone else agrees with me on the fact that teenagers aren't the best sources of knowledge. I believe some teenagers truly are gay, but then again there are 14 year old girls posting on TH saying, "Oh, my girlfriend doesn't love me anymore, boo hoo." It's their way of fitting in. Most of these teens are NOT gay. There's a reason why teens are confused. Because society is also confusing them. I also believe teens want to fit in so bad, that they think that they are attracted to the same sex, when what they are really doing is trying to find beauty.


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert View Post
Though in animal populations, homosexuality sometimes occurs more often, as a population buffer when the population is too big for the resources... which is pretty much where we are going with the human race. Infact, homosexuality in the animal kingdom has various uses. I only have time to link a short article right now:

Homosexual behaviour widespread in animals according to new study - Telegraph

That being said, animal studies do not nessecarily reflect humans, but they do suggest some interesting ideas.



I try not to compare humans to animals, since we do a lot of things that animals don't do, and they do a lot of things we don't do. Like eat our feces, kill our infants, incest, etc. I mean, we could do ALL these things, but society deems it not right.


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 06:38 PM

i find this topic to be very interesting and sometimes i don't know what to believe. i think if a person is not hurting anyone, and is happy, that is all that matters. but there are things i question on both sides. not because i doubt either sides information or beliefs, but personal experiences of friends make me confused.

okay, example.
a few of my gay friends - guys and girls - have explained that it is really difficult being gay and they hate people judging them. i mean, they have asked me, "do you think i chose this? if i could be attracted to the opposite sex i would, but i am just not." i see that it is hard for them. even though now society is more accepting than what it was, it is still more difficult for them. so, i can't imagine why anyone would just be gay..?

but on the other hand, two girls that i have known for a few years started dating girls (one 2 years ago, the other 9 months ago), but before that they always dated guys, all the time. one of them still flirts with guys hardcore- and i know she LOVES attention from guys, but she stays with her girlfriend (who is jealous of her with guys more so than females). now i don't know. maybe they were bi- or maybe they were always gay, but just followed the norms of society. . but maybe it has been so acceptable for people to be gay, especially females.

i think that there are females out there that truly love females (same as males loving males), but i think females may be more prone to become gay only because some dumb guys (at least where i live) are always like "that is so hot!" and "can i watch?"

i do think it is biological. but i also hate to doubt my friends who are in these relationships with girls. maybe they do really like them, or maybe it is just a phase in between boyfriends.

however! i generally lean to the more biological side of things. but whatever, just be happy


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 06:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xHolyValorx View Post
Invert

No, but I was a little girl that has crushes on little boys, like little boys have crushes on little girls. I don't desire to be with a women. I don't find boobs and vagina attractive. I had P.E. in high school and didn't get all hot when I watched them undress. Honestly? What the hell am I supposed to do with a girl? Toys and oral. A guy can give me a hell of a lot more than any girl can. So you're saying that in order for me to be straight, I have to want to sleep with my boyfriend?

I didn't really get the point with your response to my first quote, are you agreeing with me. It sounded like it.


I wasn't agreeing with you? I was saying just because a situation triggered the thoughts, doesn't mean that the situation made them gay.

I also wasn't suggesting you are anything but straight, I was talking about the general nature of *childhood* crushes, regardless of your orientation, is generally more about modelling, etc. Children simply do not have the cognitive ability for either romantic love or sexual attraction. Infact, some models of friends don't suggest friendships become particularly real, beyond shared play, until late childhood, or double figures.

And no, you don't have to want to have sex with someone to be straight. Being loosely asexual, I've only ever been sexually attracted to one or two of the individuals I've had crushes on. I mentionned sexual attraction, because effectively, sexual attraction, for the fast majority of people is part of sexuality. And as far as I know, asexuals who are attracted to people, emotionally, tend to start getting those crushes later on in puberty then most people. Though, I can probably tell you more about that when my friend finishes his PhD study on asexuality. Regardless, scientifically, sexuality starts with puberty. And romantic attraction starts usually about the same time or a short while afterward.

Also... what, do you think all the gay people get hot and bothered in the changing rooms at school? I had people accuse me of such things (even though I wasn't identifying as gay), one of the things I felt the need to point out to them is a) that's rude, intrusive and wrong, and b) if I was going to check out people in the changing room, they'd have to be hotter then anyone in my classes. Just because I'm into female bodied people doesn't me I'm an uncontrolled pervert. lol

Quote:
I'm glad someone else agrees with me on the fact that teenagers aren't the best sources of knowledge. I believe some teenagers truly are gay, but then again there are 14 year old girls posting on TH saying, "Oh, my girlfriend doesn't love me anymore, boo hoo." It's their way of fitting in. Most of these teens are NOT gay. There's a reason why teens are confused. Because society is also confusing them. I also believe teens want to fit in so bad, that they think that they are attracted to the same sex, when what they are really doing is trying to find beauty.
I don't see how being gay helps you fit in, in about 99% of places? That, and the straight kids on teenhelp make 'boo hoo my gf doesnt love me anymore' threads.

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Originally Posted by mexico View Post
I try not to compare humans to animals, since we do a lot of things that animals don't do, and they do a lot of things we don't do. Like eat our feces, kill our infants, incest, etc. I mean, we could do ALL these things, but society deems it not right.
Some people eat their own feces, but in humans, that's incredibly unhealthy for you, the animals who eat their own do so because their digestion systems and diets are different. They need to reproccess the digested pellets... it's a different type of poo, and its actually good for them to eat. Where as our... well its called 'shit' for a reason. Because we have different digestive system.

My point of mentionning animals wasn't about whether gay is right or wrong, it was to show that there is a biological, unlearned cause of it in animals, and although it doesn't mean its directly applicable to people, it shows such mechanisms are possible, particularly in higher order animals (like dolphins and primates). Most of our biological knowledge is founded in animal studies, and where possible, then investigated in humans. But these things are limited due to ethical reasons. So the animal kingdom is a guide. Plus, a trait that is widespread through animals, something almost universal, is much different from the examples you gave, because they are very limited traits.
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 07:26 PM

As I bring up again ... who would choose to be gay? Certainly not the number of people who are homosexual. I wish I was straight to be honest. It's so much harder being 'not-straight'. I believe it's purely biological and the only time you could have a different brain chemistry than a gay person and be gay, is if you had some horrific event happen like being raped multiple times or something like that.

I especially like the penguins in the zoo who are 'gay'. I'm curious how their society could have changed them really.

I really like all your Kathlene. Nicely put together. ^_^

Also, make sure to keep this purely about if it's biological or not, since we have a few other threads on if homosexuality is right or wrong.



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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 09:46 PM

I would never have chosen to be Gay. Why would I choose to have a crush on a girl I haven't seen for six months? Why would I have a crush on my best friend if it was a choice?

[quote]
No, but I was a little girl that has crushes on little boys, like little boys have crushes on little girls. I don't desire to be with a women. I don't find boobs and vagina attractive. I had P.E. in high school and didn't get all hot when I watched them undress. Honestly? What the hell am I supposed to do with a girl? Toys and oral. A guy can give me a hell of a lot more than any girl can. So you're saying that in order for me to be straight, I have to want to sleep with my boyfriend?




I thought I liked boys before this year. People who are Gay often times think they're are straight because thats what is acceptable in society. Just because someone has a crush on a girl doesn't mean they are attracted to their vaginas or boobs. Don't you like your boyfriend for who he is? Are you saying that a relationship mostly about sex?
I don't get hot changing with other girls in the locker room. Would you get hot changing in a room full of boys?

[quote]
I'm glad someone else agrees with me on the fact that teenagers aren't the best sources of knowledge. I believe some teenagers truly are gay, but then again there are 14 year old girls posting on TH saying, "Oh, my girlfriend doesn't love me anymore, boo hoo." It's their way of fitting in. Most of these teens are NOT gay. There's a reason why teens are confused. Because society is also confusing them. I also believe teens want to fit in so bad, that they think that they are attracted to the same sex, when what they are really doing is trying to find beauty



It is not their way of fitting in. If they wanted to fit in wouldn't they be talking about their boyfriends. Wouldn't you be upset if your boyfriend broke up with you?
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 10:27 PM

i don't really get the whole "who would choose to be gay?" argument.

from where i see it, there are many reasons for someone to want to choose to be gay. i lot of people, especially younger people say they're gay to get attention. also, it seemed to be the "in" thing for a while to be gay or bi. there is a lot to be gained from saying you're gay from what i can see anyway. i don't really understand it, but yeahh.

as for the biological issue, i don't pretend to understand any of that scientific jargon.. but i don't dispute that there probably is some biological link.. however i think the majority of it is down to your upbringing/who you socialise with/environment.


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 11:24 PM

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Originally Posted by xxEllexx View Post
i don't really get the whole "who would choose to be gay?" argument.

from where i see it, there are many reasons for someone to want to choose to be gay. i lot of people, especially younger people say they're gay to get attention. also, it seemed to be the "in" thing for a while to be gay or bi. there is a lot to be gained from saying you're gay from what i can see anyway. i don't really understand it, but yeahh.
I agree with you that this happens, but those people are not the ones who are really gay. Those people don't generally tell their parents and families and have to endure the possible hardships that come with that.

I strongly disagree that there is a lot to gain from being gay. There are still a lot of people that do not accept gay people. Their own families sometimes don't even accept them. And lets not forget in most of the states they still can't get married and have equal rights as straight people. So what do they really gain? Maybe a little attention?


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 19th 2009, 11:54 PM

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Originally Posted by xxEllexx View Post
i don't really get the whole "who would choose to be gay?" argument.

from where i see it, there are many reasons for someone to want to choose to be gay. i lot of people, especially younger people say they're gay to get attention. also, it seemed to be the "in" thing for a while to be gay or bi. there is a lot to be gained from saying you're gay from what i can see anyway. i don't really understand it, but yeahh.
There's a lot to be gained? I guess if I liked having things thrown at me, homophobic comments made at me, and the risk of being kicked out of m family and church, and the massive personal religious conflict I dealt with for over a year... then yeah, I gained a lot?

To be fair, whether or not you've got some perception of there being a trend, and the 'in' thing, etc, studies still show that homophobic bullying is rife in school, not just to gays, but people percieved to be to be. A handful of areas are ok with it, but many, many aren't. In my year group at secondary school, I think we had about one or two out bisexuals, who werent particularly loud about it... yet now, that we've all left that situation, I know of at least 9, and I suspect there may be a few more. Same sort of thing happened in my brother's year group, etc. A lot of the people I know at uni either came out in sixth form, or at uni, etc. So yeah, there may be a handful of kids in specific areas who go round thinking its cool, but I think it's probably a small few, and the base rate is mostly people who didn't have that situation. Plus, most of those kids do not go on into their late teens or adulthood still claiming it... they are very short term 'gays'.

But trust me, there's not a lot to be gained... really.... there's a lot to be lost...
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 20th 2009, 12:10 AM

I think it'd be a bit stupid to completely discredit that there IS a biological aspect to homosexuality.

However, I believe that these natural homosexual urges are likely to flourish, be repressed, or completely ignored depending on the environment the individual grows up in. Of course homosexuality is biological in ways, but I believe our environments and how we're brought up have large effects on how a person deals with homosexuality.

It also depends how strong these urges are. I don't believe being straight or homosexual should be viewed as strictly black and white, but rather more along the idea of the Kinsley scale, but more ranged than that. The higher people are on the scale, the more likely their homosexual urges will surface, regardless of how they're brought up. For people in the middle, it could really go either way, and here is where environment comes into play.

So no, I don't believe it is a choice. But I don't view is as PURELY biological either (though I believe alot of it is, just not completely).
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 20th 2009, 12:25 AM

I think it's biological, not a matter of choice in any way. Although perhaps nurture may have some contributing factors regarding people's sexuality, it's still not a conscious choice when it comes down to it, people cant change the shape of the mold that nature has given them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by xxEllexx View Post
i don't really get the whole "who would choose to be gay?" argument.

from where i see it, there are many reasons for someone to want to choose to be gay. i lot of people, especially younger people say they're gay to get attention. also, it seemed to be the "in" thing for a while to be gay or bi. there is a lot to be gained from saying you're gay from what i can see anyway. i don't really understand it, but yeahh.

as for the biological issue, i don't pretend to understand any of that scientific jargon.. but i don't dispute that there probably is some biological link.. however i think the majority of it is down to your upbringing/who you socialise with/environment.
Some people may claim to be gay because they think it's "hip" and gives them attention, but I don't think they ever come out to their families and endure the negative attention that people can get from being gay.

Also, I don't think that there is much to be gained in being gay. Being discriminated against, having people oppose your right to marry the person you fall in love with, not being able to have biological children with your partner? I can't honestly say that I would have chosen to be bisexual if I had the choice.







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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 20th 2009, 12:30 AM

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Originally Posted by Invert View Post
There's a lot to be gained? I guess if I liked having things thrown at me, homophobic comments made at me, and the risk of being kicked out of m family and church, and the massive personal religious conflict I dealt with for over a year... then yeah, I gained a lot?

To be fair, whether or not you've got some perception of there being a trend, and the 'in' thing, etc, studies still show that homophobic bullying is rife in school, not just to gays, but people percieved to be to be. A handful of areas are ok with it, but many, many aren't. In my year group at secondary school, I think we had about one or two out bisexuals, who werent particularly loud about it... yet now, that we've all left that situation, I know of at least 9, and I suspect there may be a few more. Same sort of thing happened in my brother's year group, etc. A lot of the people I know at uni either came out in sixth form, or at uni, etc. So yeah, there may be a handful of kids in specific areas who go round thinking its cool, but I think it's probably a small few, and the base rate is mostly people who didn't have that situation. Plus, most of those kids do not go on into their late teens or adulthood still claiming it... they are very short term 'gays'.

But trust me, there's not a lot to be gained... really.... there's a lot to be lost...
well i can only go on the people who i know that are gay. and the vast majority of my gay friends have never experienced any of the things you mentioned. i'm not saying it doesn't happen.. but for a lot of people it's not an issue. in fact a lot of my gay friends get really good responses when people find out that they're gay.


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 20th 2009, 12:33 AM

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Originally Posted by Lugez View Post
It also depends how strong these urges are. I don't believe being straight or homosexual should be viewed as strictly black and white, but rather more along the idea of the Kinsley scale, but more ranged than that. The higher people are on the scale, the more likely their homosexual urges will surface, regardless of how they're brought up. For people in the middle, it could really go either way, and here is where environment comes into play.
People in the middle could just be geniunely bi, pan, omni, whatever? lol. The point, as you suggested, is sexuality isn't really black and white, beyond our identities. In discussions like this, gay is generally used to mean queer people...

But the kinsey scale is too narrow for me Because you can like different genders in relation to different sexes. For example, I like guys who were born women, and I like women too
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 20th 2009, 05:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert
Freud is not a good example for explaining the nurture side. He is out dated, largely discredited in various areas (though neo-Freudian theorists may have reformed versions), and his theories are based on some sex obsessed approach to a handful of case studies of women in a specific culture and situation, so therefore lacking in any real empirical evidence. He was also in a time where homosexuality was considered psychologically intrinsically disordered, whereas modern psychology doesn't suggest this at all.
I agree with almost all of this. Yes he lacking empirical evidence, yes the context of time was different, yes it was mostly on women, yes it was sex-obsessed, etc... . However, he is not completely out-dated nor is he completely discredited. Seeing as how you are someone studying psychology, you would know what the possible sixth axis would be in the DSM-V. That should tell you he is not out-dated nor are all of his theories and concepts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert
Um.... I disagree, I'm pretty sure it was said it was clear-cut if it was the structure of the brain causing the attractions/behaviour, or the bahviour causing the difference in the brain.... I'm pretty sure there wasn't mention of choice. But if I'm wrong, please, correct me with a quote from him.
With LeVay's study, it was massively flawed. Home (shows the 6 main flaws of his study).

From an interview with LeVay from LeVay Shares Thoughts On 'Gay Gene' Research - The Tech: "half the reason why you're gay or straight is genetic" - what the other half is, he said, we don't know. He added that the influence of genes on sexual orientation is believed to be stronger in men than it is in women.

From the initial study, LeVay writes: "These results do not allow one to decide if the size of INAH 3 in an individual is the cause or consequence of that individual's sexual orientation, or if the size of INAH 3 and sexual orientation co-vary under the influence of some third, unidentified variable."

Also, he writes: "The existence of "exceptions" in the present sample (that is, presumed heterosexual men with small INAH 3 nuclei, and homosexual men with large ones) hints at the possibility that sexual orientation, although an important variable, may not be the sole determinant of INAH 3 size. It is also possible, however, that these exceptions are due to technical shortcomings or to misassignments of subjects to their subject group".

LeVay mentioned that AIDS (in homosexuals) could affect the size of INAH 3 but he disproved that notion.

According to other scientists from Zone of Brain Linked to Men's Sexual Orientation - The New York Times:

"the results by no means prove homosexuality is caused by a particular variation in the brain, or anywhere else in the body for that matter. "

"The consensus in the scientific community is that it's likely to be a combination" of inborn factors and environmental influence, said Dr. Nakamura. "I think most of us hope that not too much is made of this or any single finding." Gay Men, Heterosexual Women

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert
Also, looking at the abstract of your mentionned study, it was only women, and it didnt say they were more likely to identify as gay, it said engage in behaviours
I'm not sure what abstract you were reading. Child Abuse: A Multidisciplinary Survey - Google Books has the link to the abstract. No where in there does it even mention women.

However, that study was meant to be simply an example of some evidence that supports the notion that homosexuality is not completely biological.

Yes it is more common in identical twin studies, however, that does not prove it is only biological nor does it prove it is not nurture. Identical twins presumably raised in the same house would get very similar treatments from the parents. There are also studies showing twins reared apart tend to both be homosexual if at least one twin is, however, that does not show it is not nurture nor that it is only biological.

With "lower animals", there is immense debate over using that comparison, however, it does not show it either. It may be 100% biological in fruit flies but that does not instantly mean it is 100% biological in humans. If anything, it supports the view that there is a biological component to it, which I agree that there is.
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 20th 2009, 06:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert View Post
People in the middle could just be geniunely bi, pan, omni, whatever? lol. The point, as you suggested, is sexuality isn't really black and white, beyond our identities. In discussions like this, gay is generally used to mean queer people...
I did hint that the Kinsley scale was narrow. I agree there.

And those people COULD identify as bi and whatnot. They could also maybe just decide which sex they prefer. But like I said, I think environment plays a role in which path the person decides to take in those situations. But keep in mind that this is only possible because of their BIOLOGICAL makeup.
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 20th 2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
I agree with almost all of this. Yes he lacking empirical evidence, yes the context of time was different, yes it was mostly on women, yes it was sex-obsessed, etc... . However, he is not completely out-dated nor is he completely discredited. Seeing as how you are someone studying psychology, you would know what the possible sixth axis would be in the DSM-V. That should tell you he is not out-dated nor are all of his theories and concepts.
I said largely discredited in various areas... but on a whole, a nuture explaination of sexuality is probably not all that well explained by Freud. Some of his ideas are good, and have lead on the various other theories from various schools of psychology. Though these developments are probably better sources then Freud, who largely has an unsupported theory, without generalisable evidence, which were mostly unoriginal ideas from other, he just wrote better. And for something like this, there is even less evidence supporting Freud then there are for biological componant of sexuality, so therefore, there are better ways to understand the nurture side. If you can't tell, I'm not much of a Freudian.



Quote:
With LeVay's study, it was massively flawed. Home (shows the 6 main flaws of his study).
Didn't say it wasnt? I said his conclusion was about if the structure difference caused the behaviour, or if the behaviour caused the structure difference. Behaviour does change the structure of your brain.

Quote:
From an interview with LeVay from LeVay Shares Thoughts On 'Gay Gene' Research - The Tech: "half the reason why you're gay or straight is genetic" - what the other half is, he said, we don't know. He added that the influence of genes on sexual orientation is believed to be stronger in men than it is in women.

From the initial study, LeVay writes: "These results do not allow one to decide if the size of INAH 3 in an individual is the cause or consequence of that individual's sexual orientation, or if the size of INAH 3 and sexual orientation co-vary under the influence of some third, unidentified variable."

Also, he writes: "The existence of "exceptions" in the present sample (that is, presumed heterosexual men with small INAH 3 nuclei, and homosexual men with large ones) hints at the possibility that sexual orientation, although an important variable, may not be the sole determinant of INAH 3 size. It is also possible, however, that these exceptions are due to technical shortcomings or to misassignments of subjects to their subject group".

LeVay mentioned that AIDS (in homosexuals) could affect the size of INAH 3 but he disproved that notion.

According to other scientists from Zone of Brain Linked to Men's Sexual Orientation - The New York Times:

"the results by no means prove homosexuality is caused by a particular variation in the brain, or anywhere else in the body for that matter. "

"The consensus in the scientific community is that it's likely to be a combination" of inborn factors and environmental influence, said Dr. Nakamura. "I think most of us hope that not too much is made of this or any single finding." Gay Men, Heterosexual Women
I did say I think its a mix, as I said, most of the things about humans are a mix. What I was criticising in your post is your wording... you decided to use 'choice'... LeVay, and the scientific community do not have a biology vs choice theory going on. Nurture is NOT choice. Though maybe I confused you with my typing saying 'it was clear cut'. I meant it wasnt, that was agreeing with you, but my focus was back on the issue of choice.

Quote:
I'm not sure what abstract you were reading. Child Abuse: A Multidisciplinary Survey - Google Books has the link to the abstract. No where in there does it even mention women.

However, that study was meant to be simply an example of some evidence that supports the notion that homosexuality is not completely biological.
link doesnt work, though from what I did find the other day, is most those studies point toward gay behaviour, not identities.

Quote:
Yes it is more common in identical twin studies, however, that does not prove it is only biological nor does it prove it is not nurture. Identical twins presumably raised in the same house would get very similar treatments from the parents. There are also studies showing twins reared apart tend to both be homosexual if at least one twin is, however, that does not show it is not nurture nor that it is only biological.
Again, I'm not saying its 100% biological, if you read my posts in any of these threads. I do have to point out though, that with twin studies, they compare rates of identical to non-identical twins, to account for shared enviornments. What this does, is suggest a fair biological component, not suggest a 100% biological component. Again, I have not claimed this. Not even once to my knowledge.

Quote:
With "lower animals", there is immense debate over using that comparison, however, it does not show it either. It may be 100% biological in fruit flies but that does not instantly mean it is 100% biological in humans. If anything, it supports the view that there is a biological component to it, which I agree that there is.
Well... duh? How many times do I have to highlight that I think most things about humans are nature and nurture for the point to get through? At the same time, this is a discussion on homosexuality, and it being biological, so its still relevant, whether or not its applicable to human homosexuality. My point was to illustrate more that it can be naturally occuring. But like human heterosexuality, human seuality is a very complex thing, that to be fair, probably involves more then just nature and nurture.

But just to make it clear to everyone:

I am not saying that it is 100% biological, I'm partly being devil's advocate, and partly highlighting things that I disagree with, without nessecerily considering the relation of human sexuality and biological.
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 21st 2009, 03:51 AM

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Originally Posted by Invert View Post
I said largely discredited in various areas... but on a whole, a nuture explaination of sexuality is probably not all that well explained by Freud. Some of his ideas are good, and have lead on the various other theories from various schools of psychology. Though these developments are probably better sources then Freud, who largely has an unsupported theory, without generalisable evidence, which were mostly unoriginal ideas from other, he just wrote better. And for something like this, there is even less evidence supporting Freud then there are for biological componant of sexuality, so therefore, there are better ways to understand the nurture side. If you can't tell, I'm not much of a Freudian.
There are much better ways to understand the nurture side, I agree with you on that. Yes, you did say Freud was discredited in various areas but that is not what I was going on about. I was referring to you saying he was out-dated.

Although it's still a pity, although you may not agree with all of Freud and neither do I, there are a few things of his that the general scientific community does consider valid and in fact still does use. I'm ignoring the ones who follow the psychoanalytic and psychodynamic paradigms, and even with those out of the picture, some of Freud's stuff still is considered valid. My point is, he is not out-dated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert View Post
Didn't say it wasnt? I said his conclusion was about if the structure difference caused the behaviour, or if the behaviour caused the structure difference. Behaviour does change the structure of your brain.
I know what you said but I felt like pointing out the flaws as I was unsure if you were or were not aware of the flaws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert View Post
I did say I think its a mix, as I said, most of the things about humans are a mix. What I was criticising in your post is your wording... you decided to use 'choice'... LeVay, and the scientific community do not have a biology vs choice theory going on. Nurture is NOT choice. Though maybe I confused you with my typing saying 'it was clear cut'. I meant it wasnt, that was agreeing with you, but my focus was back on the issue of choice.
I think both of us used confusing wording.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert View Post
link doesnt work, though from what I did find the other day, is most those studies point toward gay behaviour, not identities.
I tried it again and it does work. If need be, Google up the name of the study and author.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invert View Post
Again, I'm not saying its 100% biological, if you read my posts in any of these threads. I do have to point out though, that with twin studies, they compare rates of identical to non-identical twins, to account for shared enviornments. What this does, is suggest a fair biological component, not suggest a 100% biological component. Again, I have not claimed this. Not even once to my knowledge.
Well... duh? How many times do I have to highlight that I think most things about humans are nature and nurture for the point to get through? At the same time, this is a discussion on homosexuality, and it being biological, so its still relevant, whether or not its applicable to human homosexuality. My point was to illustrate more that it can be naturally occuring. But like human heterosexuality, human seuality is a very complex thing, that to be fair, probably involves more then just nature and nurture.
Read above, most of this was due to you using the phrase "clear-cut", which made it seem like it was only that. I have not once said that the biological viewpoints are not relevant so I'm not entirely sure why you'd advocating them to me as though I'm against them.

But also, with your reference to the fruit flies being 100% biological, I was unsure if you were showing it may be 100% biological in humans or if there is simply a large contribution in humans. You were ambiguous about this.

Now you have me intrigued, if there is something else other than nature and nurture and possibly choice, then what else do you think there is?
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 21st 2009, 02:49 PM

I was just thinking about my gay friends. Now being in the theatre they are all involved in the theatre, which is the typical sterotype for guys. HOWEVER, all of the guys I know who are in the theatre and are gay only got interested in theatre in high school or maybe 8th grade. They didn't grow up with it, in fact many of their parents don't support it. Then you have my brother, been dancing since he was 5, both my parents are in the business, grew up on show tunes just like me, not gay. He's 12 but trust me he's not gay. I have another friend my age been dancing all of his life, not gay.In fact none of the guys at my dance school are gay and they've been dancing since they were little. I guess what I'm saying is that if it is nurture, growing up as a guy in the typical gay guy sterotype has not turned anyone gay that I know. And the worst part, my brother is called gay because he dances he's been flicked off at lunch called homo, simply because he is a dancer (though I just told him that they will all regret it when he gets in high school and has the girls hanging all over him, which is already happening).
Anyway point is if the typical sterotypes don't cause people to be gay what does?


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 23rd 2009, 04:43 PM

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Originally Posted by mexico View Post
I have noticed that gay population have been increasing thoughout time.
Well the reason for this should be obvious, shouldn't it? Homosexuality is becoming more acceptable in society today than ever before, so people aren't afraid to show their sexual orientation. I have no doubts that the percentage of the population of the world that is gay/lesbian/bisexual has stayed roughly the same for a long time.


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 24th 2009, 04:18 AM

My only beef with gay being biological is that some asshat from the religious-wingnut-compound is going to come in with goals of "fixing it" like it's some sort of disease. Sigh.


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 24th 2009, 10:01 AM

I believe its biological TO AN EXTENT, now I'm not sure about all the facts in the first post, I wouldn't say that is evidence to be fair, coincidence yes, evidence no.

Anyway, I think its a mix of both. Put it this way, if things was purely biological, our lives would be mapped out for us. Before we were born we would have been destined to become a doctor/hobo/gymnast etc. But its not. Its down to environment too.

There may a slight biological factor but environment also plays a part in it.

As for a comment above saying "the gay population is increasing" I don't think it is, its just being more accepted in society.
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 24th 2009, 10:09 PM

I'd like to point out that the finger ratio bit isn't true in a lot of cases.


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 27th 2009, 03:40 PM

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Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
Now you have me intrigued, if there is something else other than nature and nurture and possibly choice, then what else do you think there is?
I have a few random ideas, but I probably need to work them out more solidly before I try to explain them. It's largely to do with the interaction between orientation and sexual identity, and perception of feelings, etc.

Last edited by Marvin; June 27th 2009 at 08:27 PM.
   
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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 27th 2009, 08:55 PM

This is a bit amusing. If it really is biological and at this day and age being yourself is encouraged, wouldn't that mean that eventually gays would die out?


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Re: Homosexuality is biological - June 27th 2009, 08:58 PM

Why would they die out? We have the technology available to us that makes it unnecessary to have sex to reproduce. If someone who is homosexual really wanted children, there are many options available to them.


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