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Humans > Animals? - June 20th 2009, 05:13 PM

Hm.... so I've been quite curious about this. So far I still haven't heard a plausible answer for why humans are more important than animals. I've heard logical reasons for why humans THINK they are more important than animals, but not for why they actually "are".

EDIT: okay children, I do indeed realize I have phrased things badly. Now I know how to phrase my question. Do you believe having human DNA makes your life more important? Why or why not?

I personally value lives about the same. However, I would hurt a person long before I would hurt most animals.

PS: Don't bring up PETA. PETA has nothing to do with this debate. PETA is a terrible organization that harms animals and makes it much harder for people who actually support animal rights, because others will assume they are crazy. Down with PETA!

Anyway...


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Last edited by Toast; June 26th 2009 at 07:38 PM. Reason: Rephrasing
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 20th 2009, 05:19 PM

I think the main reason is because the human brain is far more complex than that of any animal. Our brains are much larger than the brains of other mammals, for one thing. We have a more expansive cerebral cortex than other mammals. It's quite obvious that humans are smarter than animals. Can you imagine animals running the world? Humans may be selfish and idiotic, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that humans are generally much smarter than any mammal, as their brains are much more complex out of any other creature. Human knowledge contributes to the world. If any other mammal were running the world, we would not be as advanced in technology, medicines, etc. Human brains are much more valuable than animals. Of course it would be a hard decision whether to save a human or your own pet, but that is simply because pets are treated as part of the family. They may seem as important as humans because of this, but in truth they definitely are not. It may seem as if humans see themselves as above all other creatures, but that is only because we, as humans, are in fact more knowledgeable.





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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 20th 2009, 05:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Concrete Girl View Post
I think the main reason is because the human brain is far more complex than that of any animal. Our brains are much larger than the brains of other mammals, for one thing. We have a more expansive cerebral cortex than other mammals. It's quite obvious that humans are smarter than animals. Can you imagine animals running the world? Humans may be selfish and idiotic, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that humans are generally much smarter than any mammal, as their brains are much more complex out of any other creature.
Actually, dolphins beat humans in this category. Dolphins are much more intelligent than humans.


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 20th 2009, 05:38 PM

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Actually, dolphins beat humans in this category. Dolphins are much more intelligent than humans.
Have dolphins created civilizations, medicine, languages, education, architecture, etc ? These are all things that humans have created. Dolphins may be capable of doing such things, but they haven't had much of an affect on the way that we live our life from day to day, have they? Therefore the knowledge dolphins may have has done no good for the world, has it? Which is proof that humans are also superior to dolphins as well.





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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 20th 2009, 05:45 PM

I've had this debate with my friend many times.
Lets take a different example a random dog ( if it's your own dog then your going to be bias because people start viewing animals as people etc.) and a random person.

Why I would save the human:
a) It's natural to be selfish, greedy and regard ourselves as more important it's how the human race evolved to be the most dominant race. I think a member of the same race as you should be regarded as more important because other wise how does the race survive?
b) The dog only responds to how you treat it. You can't reason with it and any sort of relationship with it is based on the fact that it associates you with food and walks etc. The relationship couldn't be as meaningful as one with a human.
c) Yeah, you have no idea about who the human is. That human could be one of the most amazing people or one of the worst. They could be the next Mandela or the next Hitler. Are you willing to let someone who could do good in the world die for the sake of an animal that you can't have a two way relationship with.

I'm not saying I'd feel ok about killing the dog but y'know I see it as the best way out of a bad situation.

Also do you have evidence to back up the dolphins are smarter than humans claim because I don't see them utilizing resources around them to better their circumstances?


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 20th 2009, 05:50 PM

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c) Yeah, you have no idea about who the human is. That human could be one of the most amazing people or one of the worst. They could be the next Mandela or the next Hitler. Are you willing to let someone who could do good in the world die for the sake of an animal that you can't have a two way relationship with.
See, I agree with this. You could be allowing the human that will find the cure to cancer or bring us world peace (although that's probably not to realistic) die, for the sake of a dog. The fact is that humans are in charge of this world. It's not that animals are stupid or useless, but that when this world was created it was meant to be run by mankind, not a dog or a dolphin. You may ask why this is, but it is obvious that humans are most capable of running this world than most other species.





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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 20th 2009, 06:40 PM

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Actually, dolphins beat humans in this category. Dolphins are much more intelligent than humans.
No... no they aren't. For example they don't have language (language is a system confined by rules, with the ability to discuss something in its abscene, and make novel utterences, to an infinite amount, with a finite number of words and rules), yes, they have communication, but thats not language. They don't have the fourth level of minding, so they aren't able to be symbolic, or abstract. The human mind is unique in many of its skills and abilities.

According to one source I found, apparently they are on about the same level as elephants.

Not to mention, as a human, you should have more concern for your own species, as mentioned earlier, surival of the species is essentially the purpose of all living things. And as humans are social beings, this doesn't just mean looking after yourself.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 20th 2009, 06:44 PM

We regard humans as more important because it's the species we belong to. I don't think we actually are more important though. We are all inhabitants of the earth so to say one is more important than the other is kind of arrogant. With that said, humans do understand more than animals and the emotional pain a human and his/her family would go through in a bad experience would last a lot longer and be deeper than the pain of an animal. So I can see why we put humans first in many circumstances. I think animals should still be regarded as more important than they currently are by a lot of people though.


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 20th 2009, 06:52 PM

As an animal rights advocate;

Humans have done amazing things; write symphonies, walk on the moon. But then again we also invented the atomic bomb, so our "intelligence" doesn't mean much. Personally, in the choice between a human or an animal dying, I would pick the human. ALF explained the logic behind the thinking to this choice, in my case, very well. It's human nature to pick your own kind. I'd pick a family member over a stranger, as well.

I suppose the only reason humans think humans are the best is because one defends one's own kind out of instinct.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 21st 2009, 12:18 AM

Humans are more important than animals because that's just the way that life always was. Animals didn't build Noah's Ark to save the humans, Noah built the ark to save the animals! Animals didn't discover fire, they didn't build pyramids, they didn't travel the moon, and they don't even speak English. If animals were actually able to comprehend English and be able to hold a conversation with a human being, then I would take it into consideration. Fact is, people kill animals...maybe from enjoyment, or to put food on the table. Human beings are the ones who developed weapons, so I think that it's fair game to hunt for animals that aren't illegal to shoot. Truth is that animals can be pretty smart, but sometimes...they can't be smart enough.

Human beings are just the superior being. If animals wanna fight back in a physical (physical being...walk to the store, buy a gun, and shoot hunters, etc) or mental sense, then I say bring it on. But that's never going to happen because animals just can't do that.

I find it hard to believe that you'd actually save a animal instead of a human being. But, I'll take your word for it.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 21st 2009, 03:30 AM

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Our brains are much larger than the brains of other mammals, for one thing. We have a more expansive cerebral cortex than other mammals. It's quite obvious that humans are smarter than animals. Can you imagine animals running the world?


Sadly, other animals have much larger brains than humans. Brain size does not indicate intelligence. Human brains vary in size and weight but you don't see the biggest brains being the smartest nor the smallest brains being the dumbest.

Seeing as how humans from an evolutionary stance are humans, yes, I can and do see animals running the world. In fact, they are right now.

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Originally Posted by Concrete Girl View Post
Human knowledge contributes to the world. If any other mammal were running the world, we would not be as advanced in technology, medicines, etc.


While other animals currently are not running around making miraculous medical discoveries, other animals can benefit each other in the world. It may not be on a very grand scale but they still do benefit. But you're right, we wouldn't be as advanced.

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Originally Posted by Concrete Girl View Post
Human brains are much more valuable than animals.


Why? They're not the biggest, they can lead to immense destruction, amazing benefits and everything in-between. Other animals' brains can do the similar, so what makes a human's brain more valuable than an animal's? In neuroscience research, many animals are used for experiments so clearly they must have some value for us to make analogies from. But that still does not show which brain is more valuable.

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Of course it would be a hard decision whether to save a human or your own pet, but that is simply because pets are treated as part of the family. They may seem as important as humans because of this, but in truth they definitely are not. It may seem as if humans see themselves as above all other creatures, but that is only because we, as humans, are in fact more knowledgeable.
True, humans are very knowledgable but other animals are not complete airheads, they also care for their young and families in the only ways they know how, and some of it resembles what current humans do. So they may be more knowledgable according to us but we do not know if they are more knowledgable in comparison to another animal as we do not know what that animal truly knows.

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Humans are more important than animals because that's just the way that life always was. Animals didn't build Noah's Ark to save the humans, Noah built the ark to save the animals! Animals didn't discover fire, they didn't build pyramids, they didn't travel the moon, and they don't even speak English. If animals were actually able to comprehend English and be able to hold a conversation with a human being, then I would take it into consideration. Fact is, people kill animals...maybe from enjoyment, or to put food on the table. Human beings are the ones who developed weapons, so I think that it's fair game to hunt for animals that aren't illegal to shoot. Truth is that animals can be pretty smart, but sometimes...they can't be smart enough.

The unfortunate thing for this argument is humans are animals. So yes, humans did discover fire, they did build pyramids, they did travel to the moon, many do speak English, etc... .

But you're wrong on another count, other animals have been shown to build tools and could use them for weapons. Granted, they aren't out building AK47s but they build primitive tools, which oddly enough, are what humans also once built.

I agree with you on the last line, they can be very smart but are not always smart enough.

Animals can communicate with others and there have also been some experiments where animals were taught human sign-language, identifying human objects, colours, etc... . So some have the capacity to learn human languages such as English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon
Human beings are just the superior being. If animals wanna fight back in a physical (physical being...walk to the store, buy a gun, and shoot hunters, etc) or mental sense, then I say bring it on. But that's never going to happen because animals just can't do that.
Humans probably are superior to other animals, however, other animals are not necessarily completely stupid. In a physical fight, then an animal could easily win, such as 1-1 no weapons human vs bear or human vs elephant, etc... . In that sense, the human is probably going to lose.

In a mental sense, it's debatable. As more and more research is done, we are finding out that many animals are a hell of a lot smarter than we cut them out to be. There is some evidence where some animals have a superior memory in comparison to most humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon
I find it hard to believe that you'd actually save a animal instead of a human being. But, I'll take your word for it.
I wouldn't save an animal nor a human right away. I'd consider who the human is and what the animal is, and my relationship between the two. I don't think it's fair to say you'd always save an animal or always save a human. The situation will play a big part in it.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 21st 2009, 03:57 AM

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Hm.... so I've been quite curious about this. So far I still haven't heard a plausible answer for why humans are more important than animals. I've heard logical reasons for why humans THINK they are more important than animals, but not for why they actually "are".

Personally, I would save my dog over a stranger. Why? Because I don't like people. Humans are selfish and greedy and are destroying the world. However, I would probably save a friend of mine over my own dog. Before any of you say that I have no idea what type of person that stranger was, you're right. But, the world isn't fair. We both happen to be human and humans happen to be selfish.

PS: Don't bring up PETA. PETA has nothing to do with this debate. PETA is a terrible organization that harms animals and makes it much harder for people who actually support animal rights, because others will assume they are crazy. Down with PETA!

Anyway...
Mm. I also think it's all in how you percieve life and what school of thought you follow.
For example, if you identify with existentialism...I can see there being a definite grey area in that you're like...yeah, well...what's the difference between one said organism and another?
However, if you're a rationalist, it's easier to see the buildings, language, programs, and hell, even the internet, which has been created by humans.


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 21st 2009, 04:02 AM

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Mm. I also think it's all in how you percieve life and what school of thought you follow.
For example, if you identify with existentialism...I can see there being a definite grey area in that you're like...yeah, well...what's the difference between one said organism and another?
However, if you're a rationalist, it's easier to see the buildings, language, programs, and hell, even the internet, which has been created by humans.
A rationalist can also be comparing the difference between organisms. You can then also involve reductionism in that.

It also involves bias in that you can consider humans generally to be superior or that you have lots of knowledge on humans but very little on other animals.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 24th 2009, 08:20 PM

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No... no they aren't. For example they don't have language (language is a system confined by rules, with the ability to discuss something in its abscene, and make novel utterences, to an infinite amount, with a finite number of words and rules), yes, they have communication, but thats not language. They don't have the fourth level of minding, so they aren't able to be symbolic, or abstract. The human mind is unique in many of its skills and abilities.

According to one source I found, apparently they are on about the same level as elephants.

Not to mention, as a human, you should have more concern for your own species, as mentioned earlier, surival of the species is essentially the purpose of all living things. And as humans are social beings, this doesn't just mean looking after yourself.
I've read from many reliable sources that dolphins are smarter than humans. Dolphins however, have a limited vocal range and don't have opossable thumbs. How much could you do if you had no arms, couldn't survive on land and were mute? It's not about intelligence, it's about physical capabilities. ( I would find several of these sources as proof but I'm on an iPod touch in a foriegn country. I'll find some when I get home.)


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 24th 2009, 08:23 PM

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Have dolphins created civilizations, medicine, languages, education, architecture, etc ? These are all things that humans have created. Dolphins may be capable of doing such things, but they haven't had much of an affect on the way that we live our life from day to day, have they? Therefore the knowledge dolphins may have has done no good for the world, has it? Which is proof that humans are also superior to dolphins as well.
All they do is swim around and do tricks in theme parks.


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 24th 2009, 08:32 PM

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Humans are more important than animals because that's just the way that life always was. Animals didn't build Noah's Ark to save the humans, Noah built the ark to save the animals! Animals didn't discover fire, they didn't build pyramids, they didn't travel the moon, and they don't even speak English. If animals were actually able to comprehend English and be able to hold a conversation with a human being, then I would take it into consideration. Fact is, people kill animals...maybe from enjoyment, or to put food on the table. Human beings are the ones who developed weapons, so I think that it's fair game to hunt for animals that aren't illegal to shoot. Truth is that animals can be pretty smart, but sometimes...they can't be smart enough.

Human beings are just the superior being. If animals wanna fight back in a physical (physical being...walk to the store, buy a gun, and shoot hunters, etc) or mental sense, then I say bring it on. But that's never going to happen because animals just can't do that.
I find it hard to believe that you'd actually save a animal instead of a human being. But, I'll take your word for it.
Oh right because foriegners are inferior because they can't speak English. Also, why are disabled people and children still seen as superior to humans? A guide
dog is a much more productive member of society than a mentally challenged kid. I think the reason is human's inability to communicate with other animals. If a dog could speak a human language imagine how much more important people would see it.
Also, no, a human didn't create an ark and save all the animals from a scientifically impossible storm. That never happened until you can prove that it did.


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 24th 2009, 08:46 PM

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Oh right because foriegners are inferior because they can't speak English. Also, why are disabled people and children still seen as superior to humans? A guide
dog is a much more productive member of society than a mentally challenged kid. I think the reason is human's inability to communicate with other animals. If a dog could speak a human language imagine how much more important people would see it.
Also, no, a human didn't create an ark and save all the animals from a scientifically impossible storm. That never happened until you can prove that it did.

I believe in the ark too. But I ask you thing... The earth is covered mostly with water, so you don't think you can believe that there was a storm that took place in the past? It's funny how some people think there can be life on Mars but they don't believe there could have been a great flood.

No foreigners are NOT inferior. My boyfriend is from Mexico and If anyone told me that I was superior to him I'd be pissed. Humans are all alike. Why? Because I believe we have a soul. We are set higher than the rest of the world. We KILL animals and EAT them. We have machines. We build houses. We have so many real anguages that other people can learn.

Have you ever had sex before? If you're ever had the experience to make love to another human, It's one of the most amazing feelings you'll ever experience. Animals do not get that sensation. They don't do a thousand poses and cuddle after wards.


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 24th 2009, 08:54 PM

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Oh right because foriegners are inferior because they can't speak English. Also, why are disabled people and children still seen as superior to humans? A guide dog is a much more productive member of society than a mentally challenged kid. I think the reason is human's inability to communicate with other animals. If a dog could speak a human language imagine how much more important people would see it.
Also, no, a human didn't create an ark and save all the animals from a scientifically impossible storm. That never happened until you can prove that it did.
Is there any point hypothesizing that a dog could talk?

They can't and that's not going to change in the near future. If they could understand human language and use it correctly then they would be an entirely different entity, a far more intelligent entity so of course we would consider it more important. But that entity would not be a dog as we know it at the moment. We can communicate with the dog to a certain extent we understand if it's yelping during a storm because it's scared or if it's growling because it feels threatened by a stranger and then communicate to the dog in the best way possible what we think of this behaviour etc. What limits that communication is the lack of comprehension of it by the dog.

Then again we could be inferring the wrong things from the dogs noises but however the point remains the same. And the fact that animals cannot communicate cross species is one of the reasons that humans consider animals like dogs less important.

Oh and please don't bring religion into this, you can't prove that Noah and the Ark didn't happen so lets just leave it there


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 24th 2009, 08:59 PM

Quote:
Oh right because foriegners are inferior because they can't speak English. Also, why are disabled people and children still seen as superior to humans? A guide
dog is a much more productive member of society than a mentally challenged kid. I think the reason is human's inability to communicate with other animals. If a dog could speak a human language imagine how much more important people would see it.
Also, no, a human didn't create an ark and save all the animals from a scientifically impossible storm. That never happened until you can prove that it did.
I completely disagree.

I'm using English as an example. Whatever kind of human language someone can speak, it doesn't matter. The fact is that they can speak a human language and are able to communicate to other humans. And since humans are viewed as more superior than animals, being able to speak a human language is a superior quality (btw, this includes sign-language and shit).

A guide dog is only good for guiding. It doesn't compare to what humans are capable of doing. Yes, they're smart and well-trained -- but that still doesn't mean much.

Just because a child may be mentally challenged, doesn't mean he/she can't do anything. They're still human beings, regardless of their physical or mental condition. A dog that has a genetic disorder, such as myotonia congenita, is still a dog.


Quote:
If a dog could speak a human language imagine how much more important people would see it.
"IF". That's the thing. IF dogs could speak a human language, then it'd be incredible and I would completely change my beliefs. But the fact is that they can't speak English or any other human language. That's only IF though, and it's not gonna happen within a million years.

Quote:
Also, no, a human didn't create an ark and save all the animals from a scientifically impossible storm. That never happened until you can prove that it did.
I can only prove that it's in the bible. You can't prove or disprove religion, therefore I have no evidence that the ark actually existed. In the story, yes...Noah built an ark and saved the animals from a flood. Did it happen in real life? How am I supposed to know that?
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 02:38 AM

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I've read from many reliable sources that dolphins are smarter than humans. Dolphins however, have a limited vocal range and don't have opossable thumbs. How much could you do if you had no arms, couldn't survive on land and were mute? It's not about intelligence, it's about physical capabilities. ( I would find several of these sources as proof but I'm on an iPod touch in a foriegn country. I'll find some when I get home.)

America is the most powerful, greediest nation on the planet now, if you are a civilian from Turkey, Ukraine, would you run for help to a US soldier, or a wild bear, lion, cougar???

Would the Bear attack you?? Lion??? cougar??? how about the US soldier. Would he just shoot u cuz he u are screaming for help???

Hmmm. maybe he wont do anything but would he kill u???

There is a differnce between a domesticaed Animal and a wild animal. a crminal, and a person with no criminal record.


The only difference is that humans are more capable. Dolphines are smarter than humans???

Hmmm Intelligance is really subjective. But in general humans are smarter. One test does not make u smarter.

IE, IQ isnt only the test that messures intelligance it is just the most popular one known to western "pop" culture. There are so many scienticically sound intelligance test in the world. There is no way u can clearly say Dolphines are smarter than humans without looking ignorant, or bias.

But on the other hand, Humans are clealrly more intelligent, and capable therefore we are more valuable to the world. Because we have done so much in 100 years. The internet is about 30 years ago it have been commericalized for about 15 years.

Cars is about 100 years old. Space travel is like 50 years old.

"Although there is no universally accepted definition of intelligence, it is generally regarded as an ability to act purposefully, to think rationally, and to deal effectively with new situations. There have been many attempts to measure intelligence, the best known being the standardized test which scores an individual's intelligence quotient (IQ). An IQ is the ratio of mental age to actual age (usually expressed as a percentage). It is often used as an index of intellectual development."

Bibliography
  • Ceci, S. J. (1996). On intelligence: a bioecological treatise on intellectual development. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA.
  • Sokal, M. M. (ed.) (1987). Psychological testing and American society, 1890-1930. Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick

Of Course we are more important!

one human can change the world for the better or worst.

I dunno why u are saying bad things about humans, and how awful we are. Lets examine a life of a dophine and evaluate the sea mammal.

all dophines do is eat, and poop. and do back flips lol...

Can they heal people, animals, keep the planet longer??? If they cant do any of that, then they are no where near humans.



We generally judge products by there capablities.

Would you perfer a computer w/ 19 inch screen or a Tv with 19 inch screen which one is worth more??? Why???

You can do alot of illegal, unethical things with a PC. does that mean computers are evil?? because of all the capablities???



would a bear eat u??? if ur tapped in a 30 feet cage for 20 days? How about if ur trapped with a guy name bob?? will bob eat you???

if the bear eat u would that make him evil??? or just serving himself(selfish)

my point is... all creatures in this world is selfish... in order for us to serve we must be selfish to keep ourselves alive, thats why lions kill to eat. That doesn't mean they are evil.


for humans anything is possible, for dophines pooping and doing back flips is possible.

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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 07:23 PM

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All they do is swim around and do tricks in theme parks.

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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 07:48 PM

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But on the other hand, Humans are clealrly more intelligent, and capable therefore we are more valuable to the world. Because we have done so much in 100 years. The internet is about 30 years ago it have been commericalized for about 15 years.
Valuable to the world, how? Your example of how we've created the internet isn't valuable to the world, it's only valuable to the human race. Sure, it shows our intelligence but I think, if anything, humans have been anything but valuable to the world... look at all the crap we've done to it; deforestation, excessive hunting, pollution, etc. I'm not so sure that can be classed as 'valuable'...

Personally I don't think humans are more important than other animals. Yes, we may be intellectually superior but to be honest I don't think that makes our lives more valuable than any other living creature. Not in a worldly sense, at least. By that, I'm not saying that I would save a plant or an animal over a human being (although that's debatable depending on who the human is, ), of course not. The fact that we have complex emotions and strong attachments and relationships to other people means that in most cases, people would opt to save another human. It's just that when it comes down to it, I don't equate intelligence with importance.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 08:34 PM

Quote:
I don't equate intelligence with importance.
I don't equate human decisions with value. The fact is that despite how many bad or good things that humans say or do, we're still considered the superior species. And I do think that it has A LOT to do with intelligence because although some animals have unique qualities and use tools, it still doesn't make up for what humans can do. Cheetahs can run around 80 miles an hour, while we've created machines that can go 120 miles an hour, or even faster. When a group of birds fly, they form a "V" shape for aerodynamics. We've created jumbo jets that can carry a large amount of people at 45,100 feet of altitude. A komodo dragon's saliva contains some 50 kinds of bacteria, and it'll kill it's prey at MOST within a week. We just shoot the deer, and they either run away and end up dieing from blood loss, or they die right then and there.

The list goes on. Humans are much more capable of doing things that animals cannot. We are the INTELLIGENT species. The komodo dragon doesn't say to stop shooting them, we do. Animals that live in a habitat don't come together and destroy their own home, we do. Is it right? I don't think so -- but we're more valuable than animals are. It's just how the world works.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 08:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Toast View Post
Hm.... so I've been quite curious about this. So far I still haven't heard a plausible answer for why humans are more important than animals. I've heard logical reasons for why humans THINK they are more important than animals, but not for why they actually "are".

Personally, I would save my dog over a stranger. Why? Because I don't like people. Humans are selfish
and greedy and are destroying the world. However, I would probably save a friend of mine over my own dog. Before any of you say that I have no idea what type of person that stranger was, you're right. But, the world isn't fair. We both happen to be human and humans happen to be selfish.

PS: Don't bring up PETA. PETA has nothing to do with this debate. PETA is a terrible organization that harms animals and makes it much harder for people who actually support animal rights, because others will assume they are crazy. Down with PETA!

Anyway...
Yeah, you know people are selfish when there are those out there who would save their personal pet over a human life.

This is the only post I am making in this thread. Anyone who can't see the superiority in humans is delusional.

Last edited by slickguy55; June 25th 2009 at 09:16 PM.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 09:01 PM

humans are far more capabale in almost every category...so that makes them more valuable to the world. I like animals, but this is something that any sensible person could not deny.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 09:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Brandon View Post
we're more valuable than animals are.
See, I still don't agree on that point. Everything up until then is common sense but the world 'valuable' is too subjective to be stated as a fact. I agree that we're superior in terms of intellectual capacity; you don't need to list out examples of what humanity has achieved for us all to realise that. However, I don't believe that has made us more valuable to the world. What have we done to the world that is so 'valuable'? For the world that is, not for humanity itself. Perhaps I'm coming at the question from a slightly different angle than some. Of course I know that humans are 'superior' intellectually. However, we can still only ever believe we're more important in our own minds because of that fact. What objective measurement can there be? To me, being more powerful or intellectually capable doesn't mean you're more important - you can wind that same concept down to human beings themselves in fact.

The world would be in a lot better shape without human beings I think, actually. So in that respect I fail to see how we're so valuable to it.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 10:13 PM

Okay, I'm not going to quote anyone because I just tried that and it is not fun on an iPod. First of all, Tomb, learn how to spell "you". Secondly, I find it really ironic the definition you supplied of intelligence. Most animals have the rational ability in their instincts. Humans, it appears, has mostly lost the ability of common sense. Oh, how I can't understand how people have lost logic. How can you not understand intergers? Okay, I'll stop ranting about human stupidity. Also, I have no idea what half of your post was talking about.

Anyway, we can all agree that humans may be better at some things, while animals are certainly are better at other things.

No one has really answered my question yet. Why is a disabled person more important than an animal? Mentally challenged people can't think and hold relationships the same way we do. They are of no use to us as a society. If this is the reason an animal is less important, then why does having human DNA make you any different?


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:
Okay, I'm not going to quote anyone because I just tried that and it is not fun on an iPod. First of all, Tomb, learn how to spell "you".
Don't be disrespectul. He can spell you "yeuh" if he wants too...spelling doesn't matter that much, at least in a debate forum. We're here to debate the issues, not personally attack people for spelling a word a certain way. That's kind of disrespectul and also pretty immature.

Quote:
Secondly, I find it really ironic the definition you supplied of intelligence. Most animals have the rational ability in their instincts. Humans, it appears, has mostly lost the ability of common sense. Oh, how I can't understand how people have lost logic. How can you not understand intergers? Okay, I'll stop ranting about human stupidity. Also, I have no idea what half of your post was talking about.
What makes you believe that humans have lost the ability of common sense? Is this a proven fact or is this just your opinion?

Quote:
Anyway, we can all agree that humans may be better at some things, while animals are certainly are better at other things.
Yes, I can't do a lot of the things that animals can do. But I can do a whole lot more. I believe that there is no argument whatsoever when it comes to what humans and animals can do. Humans can't do everything animals can do, but humans can most certainly do SO MUCH more than animals. I just don't see the argument.

Quote:
Why is a disabled person more important than an animal? Mentally challenged people can't think and hold relationships the same way we do. They are of no use to us as a society. If this is the reason an animal is less important, then why does having human DNA make you any different?
I already answered your question from my second to last post:

Quote:

Just because a child may be mentally challenged, doesn't mean he/she can't do anything. They're still human beings, regardless of their physical or mental condition. A dog that has a genetic disorder, such as myotonia congenita, is still a dog.
If you had a puppy that had a genetic disorder, would you still call it a puppy? If so, then a human being that has a mental disorder is still a human being.

Quote:
They are of no use to us as a society.
I'm sure people who have spent time with mentally challenged people would completely disagree with this statement. That's just your opinion, though.

Quote:
If this is the reason an animal is less important, then why does having human DNA make you any different?
Because humans...are humans. It's a simple concept.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 10:31 PM

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Originally Posted by slickguy55 View Post
Yeah, you know people are selfish when there are those out there who would save their personal pet over a human life.

This is the only post I am making in this thread. Anyone who can't see the superiority in humans is delusional.
That's hardly an arguement. You didn't even answer the question. Yes perhaps healthy, intelligent people are more capable than animals, but why do most people see something with human DNA as more valuable? A mentally challenged person is about as useful as a tapeworm. How is that more valuable than a seeing eye dog? The dog actually contributes to society while a useless person sucks resources. The human race doesn't own this planet, although we seem to think we do.

(I don't mean to offend anyone, but saying my dog is less important than a more useless and draining person just doesn't make sense to me. No one seems to know why, either.)

Also, I don't think saying any human is capable of what some people have done is plausible. Think about how stupid some people are. They certainly couldn't build a rocket even though they already have the knowledge in front of them.

Also, holly, I don't believe that a storm flooded all of the land on earth. There's this thing called the water cycle... Where could all of the rain have come from?


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 10:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Toast View Post

No one has really answered my question yet. Why is a disabled person more important than an animal? Mentally challenged people can't think and hold relationships the same way we do. They are of no use to us as a society. If this is the reason an animal is less important, then why does having human DNA make you any different?
because, first of all, not even the majority of mentally disabled people are what you describe. Mentally challenged people can't think and hold relationships the same way that we do? Have a look at this list of notable people who suffered from Asperger's syndrome (a kind of austism):

Famous People with Aspergers Syndrome

Read that and then tell me that all people with mental challenges are of no use to us as a society.


And several people have basically answered your question, but you seem to be set on being right; HUMAN BEINGS (yes, even the useless mentally challenged) are capable of things such as language, which animals do not have. It's not just that humans are more intelligent, but that they can use that intelligence to reason, and also put it into practice and do great things. Did a Dog write Hamlet? Did a dolphin discover penicilin? Did a monkey build the pyramids. No. The only notable thing that comes from monkeys is AIDS.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 10:38 PM

When did I say it wasn't human? I just said it was useless. Saying " because humans are humans" is pretty much just rewording my question. Yes, it has human DNA. How does that make it more important than a more useful working animal? It doesn't. But humans think it is. I'm asking why.


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 10:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Toast View Post
Also, I don't think saying any human is capable of what some people have done is plausible. Think about how stupid some people are. They certainly couldn't build a rocket even though they already have the knowledge in front of them.

Given the right tools, motivation, instruction and ambition, I think that any human being could learn how to build a rocket.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toast View Post
When did I say it wasn't human? I just said it was useless. Saying " because humans are humans" is pretty much just rewording my question. Yes, it has human DNA. How does that make it more important than a more useful working animal? It doesn't. But humans think it is. I'm asking why.

Go through that list that I posted, then tell me that mentally challeneged people are useless.

Last edited by Hi_ImJordan; June 25th 2009 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Multiple posts have been merged automatically.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 10:40 PM

When did I say all mentally challenged people are useless? I was refering to severly mentally challenged people who can't do anything useful.


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 10:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Toast View Post
Mentally challenged people can't think and hold relationships the same way we do. They are of no use to us as a society.

it doesn't matter what you claim to have been referring to. this is what you said.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 10:46 PM

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Originally Posted by Hi_ImJordan View Post
Given the right tools, motivation, instruction and ambition, I think that any human being could learn how to build a rocket.




Go through that list that I posted, then tell me that mentally challeneged people are useless.
I suppose we'll have to disagree then. I don't believe that any and every human cpuld build a fuctioning rocket. But then again, I have very little faith in the average human intelligence. "I DONT UNDERSTAND BALANCING EQUATIONS". Me: facepalm


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 10:47 PM

Before I continue, Tomb.. I really cannot follow your train of thought in your post as it just seems to be going every which way possible.

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Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
America is the most powerful, greediest nation on the planet now, if you are a civilian from Turkey, Ukraine, would you run for help to a US soldier, or a wild bear, lion, cougar???
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
Would the Bear attack you?? Lion??? cougar??? how about the US soldier. Would he just shoot u cuz he u are screaming for help???
If you run at a soldier, waving your hands screaming some language they don't understand, then they may be more likely to shoot you, just as the bear, lion and cougar would be more likely to attack. So I don't know what you're getting at here either.

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Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
There is a differnce between a domesticaed Animal and a wild animal. a crminal, and a person with no criminal record.
So the criminal is a wild person? If that's not what you're getting at then I'm clueless.

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Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
The only difference is that humans are more capable. Dolphines are smarter than humans???
According to immense research, they have larger brains than humans. They also are fairly intelligent, whether they are smarter or not is up for debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
Hmmm Intelligance is really subjective. But in general humans are smarter. One test does not make u smarter.
LOL!!! You say intelligence is subjective yet somehow humans are smarter. You forgot one thing... define your definition of intelligence that you're using lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
IE, IQ isnt only the test that messures intelligance it is just the most popular one known to western "pop" culture. There are so many scienticically sound intelligance test in the world. There is no way u can clearly say Dolphines are smarter than humans without looking ignorant, or bias.
And you think the idea that dolphins are smarter than humans is based on one test because? I.Q. tests are done worldwide, nothing about this "pop culture" babble.

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Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
But on the other hand, Humans are clealrly more intelligent, and capable therefore we are more valuable to the world. Because we have done so much in 100 years. The internet is about 30 years ago it have been commericalized for about 15 years.
Funny, you still haven't defined intelligence yet you're still making the conclusion that humans are more intelligent. There's a problem with this. You have made your statement and conclusion but you forgot to bring some evidence, the argument to support it... .

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Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
Cars is about 100 years old. Space travel is like 50 years old.
And the Earth is over a million years old, what's your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post

"Although there is no universally accepted definition of intelligence, it is generally regarded as an ability to act purposefully, to think rationally, and to deal effectively with new situations. There have been many attempts to measure intelligence, the best known being the standardized test which scores an individual's intelligence quotient (IQ). An IQ is the ratio of mental age to actual age (usually expressed as a percentage). It is often used as an index of intellectual development."
LOL!!.. Tomb, Tomb, Tomb... . Just above your criticized using one test to assess intelligence and one that you mentioned in your critcisim were I.Q. tests. So now, you flop to the other side and try to defend it by giving a comment on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
Of Course we are more important!
Problem... NO ARGUMENT, NO EVIDENCE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
one human can change the world for the better or worst.
And bear can end the life of 10 or so random humans. What's your point you're trying to make?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
I dunno why u are saying bad things about humans, and how awful we are. Lets examine a life of a dophine and evaluate the sea mammal.
Well, of course it wouldn't have been you who said that the US is the most greedy nation, which to me seems like you're saying something bad about humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
all dophines do is eat, and poop. and do back flips lol...
All babies do is eat, poop and cry. Wow, humans can do almost the same as dolphins! But thank you for the insight from someone who clearly hasn't taken any time to look up some credible sources to see just what dolphins have been shown to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
Can they heal people, animals, keep the planet longer??? If they cant do any of that, then they are no where near humans.
Cool, humans can heal cancer patients? So all the cancer patients dying is simply because humans cant be bothered to heal them? Well, glad we got that issue solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
We generally judge products by there capablities.
And we try to judge without being biased and understanding the producers of those products. Both of these you haven't done.

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Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
Would you perfer a computer w/ 19 inch screen or a Tv with 19 inch screen which one is worth more??? Why???
How is this relevant to the debate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
You can do alot of illegal, unethical things with a PC. does that mean computers are evil?? because of all the capablities???
No it does not mean they're evil. I'm failing to see the flow of logic between the points you're making.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
would a bear eat u??? if ur tapped in a 30 feet cage for 20 days? How about if ur trapped with a guy name bob?? will bob eat you???
The bear may eat me and bob may eat me. If bob needed food to live and I was dying, then bob may eat me. What is the point you're making?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
my point is... all creatures in this world is selfish... in order for us to serve we must be selfish to keep ourselves alive, thats why lions kill to eat. That doesn't mean they are evil.
If that's your point then what on earth did everything else above have to do with it?

Tomb, perhaps you can enlighten me with this. According to you and your conclusion that's lacking an argument and evidence, humans are smarter therefore they're more valuable. What if we have a dog, a smart dog versus a human with severe mental retardation to a point where they really cannot function by themselves. Who is more valuable? Before you answer, judging by your comments on dolphins, it may surprise you to know that dogs can do more than poop, eat and bark.

And another question for you. Let's say we have the same smart dog but now we have a human who is not mentally retarded, however, they're blind, they can hardly see something with good visual acuity that's a foot away from them. So consequently, they need a seeing-eye dog. This dog would have to know how to cross the road, take the owner out of possible danger, care for the owner the best a dog can, etc... . So without the dog and without the help of someone else, that person is essentially screwed. So would you still say that the human is more valuable simply due to intelligence? The human may be smart but they cannot do much because they cannot see, so that's not very valuable, now is it?
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 10:57 PM

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Originally Posted by Hi_ImJordan View Post
it doesn't matter what you claim to have been referring to. this is what you said.
How does it not matter? Different people understand things differently. For example, in England getting sacked means getting fired. Where I'm from, it means getting kicked in the nuts. What you're saying is that if I said someone got sacked and I meant my definition, is that it means your definition anyway.

Anyway, I'm going to bed.


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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 11:00 PM

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Originally Posted by Toast View Post
How does it not matter? Different people understand things differently. For example, in England getting sacked means getting fired. Where I'm from, it means getting kicked in the nuts. What you're saying is that if I said someone got sacked and I meant my definition, is that it means your definition anyway.

Anyway, I'm going to bed.

except you didn't say anything like that. you said MENTALLY CHALLENGED PEOPLE are USELESS to us a a society. There is no whimsical, cultural misunderstanding there. Just idiocy and ignorance and poor word choice. Can't you just admit that you said something out of line, and accept it? You can't be right all of the time.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 25th 2009, 11:22 PM

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The human may be smart but they cannot do much because they cannot see, so that's not very valuable, now is it?
In this case, I believe that they are both equally valuable. The owner of the seeing-eye dog buys the food and provides the medication to keep the dog alive, while the seeing-eye dog provides physical direction for the blind man to help keep him/her alive.

There are 14.3 million people who suffer from mental retardation, but severe? I'm not so sure. If they are severely mentally retarded, then I guess that dogs are more valuable for the economy, but that's only for severely mentally retarded people.
   
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Re: Humans > Animals? - June 26th 2009, 03:23 AM

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In this case, I believe that they are both equally valuable. The owner of the seeing-eye dog buys the food and provides the medication to keep the dog alive, while the seeing-eye dog provides physical direction for the blind man to help keep him/her alive.

There are 14.3 million people who suffer from mental retardation, but severe? I'm not so sure. If they are severely mentally retarded, then I guess that dogs are more valuable for the economy, but that's only for severely mentally retarded people.
The reason why I introduced the blind man and the dog is to the response of the idea that greater intelligence means greater value. You've agreed that this is not necessarily true. But you're right, the man has to buy dog food, however, the man can only get to the store if the dog helps bring him there (ignoring someone else bringing it or online shopping).

You're not sure if people suffer from severe mental retardation but you are sure that people suffer from mental retardation. But now I'm curious: if dogs have a greater value than a severely mentally retarded person then what does a mentally retarded person (i.e. non-severe) have over the dog and the severely impaired person? I'm further intrigued by this because you seem so skeptical on severe mental retardation yet have no problem giving a nice sweeping conclusion for them.
   
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