What is your opioion on the president and his actions?

[(Insert Name Here)]

I, for one, am seriously angry with him. He has put us in financial ruin, tried to make us like europe and now is herding us to socialism with sugar-coated lies. He has broken all the promises he made and is using air force one to take his kids on vacation! Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this picture?

[TigerTank77]

Originally Posted by (Insert Name Here)

He has put us in financial ruin,

The economy is in the state it is because of what happened in the last 8 years. Not the last 8 months.

Originally Posted by (Insert Name Here)

tried to make us like europe

I suppose your talking about health care. You realize Canada also has Universal Care? And that it works? And that people like it?

Originally Posted by (Insert Name Here)

herding us to socialism with sugar-coated lies.

Can I ask a serious question here? What the hell is wrong with a little bit of socialism? Socialism by definition means "people before the state" so in sense he's putting the people before the government. Which is what he's trying to do. Which is how it always should have been. And I'm talking Democratic Socialism, not Libertarian Socialism.

Socialism is not a dirty word, and it bugs the shit out of me when people throw it around like an insult.

[Grizabella]

He has broken all the promises he made

I haven't been following American politics too diligently. Could you elaborate on what promises he's broken?

[Kol]

Economy had been screwed before the bush Admin.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

The economy is in the state it is because of what happened in the last 8 years. Not the last 8 months.

It's a combination of the two.

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

Can I ask a serious question here? What the hell is wrong with a little bit of socialism? Socialism by definition means "people before the state" so in sense he's putting the people before the government.

Actually, socialism by definition mean 'fail idealogy', so I win.

See, I can make up definitions to prove my argument too.

Seriously though, socialism just means government control of the economy.

[sushi_error]

Did you honestly expect Obama to fix the economy right away? Heck no.

Unfortunately, Obama inherited major debt and economic problems from the previous administration. It is extremely difficult to fix all of the country's economic woes, but Obama is trying the best he can. Plus, the economy is starting to look up which is a great sign.

[slickguy55]

I think Obama's policies on the economy will hurt the economy. I feel Obama's policies require the destruction of the bill of rights. I feel that Obama is pushing us towards a dictatorship and communist government at a slow crawling pace. I think he is the most radically liberal president to ever take office, and has associated with radical liberal extremists in the past (Bill Ayers). I feel he has the power to destroy a lot of our ways.

Thats my opinion, short and simplified.

[BigBL87]

Originally Posted by EDGE

Economy had been screwed before the bush Admin.

THANK YOU! Not to say the Bush Administration helped things, but people all too often ignore how the Clinton administration contributed to it as well.

Originally Posted by sushi_error

Unfortunately, Obama inherited major debt and economic problems from the previous administration. It is extremely difficult to fix all of the country's economic woes, but Obama is trying the best he can. Plus, the economy is starting to look up which is a great sign.

While it is true that he inherited significant debt, he also added a great amount of debt to the already existing debt. In fact, during his first 50 days in office he averaged $1,000,000,000 an hour in spending. You can see the math in this thread, if you don't believe me:
http://forums.teenhelp.org/f38-curre...dislike-obama/

Also, the economy looking up is a subjective thing. Some stocks may have risen, but unemployment hasn't exactly rebounded by any means. People also forget that they economy is cyclical, like many things in life. Given time, the economy would in all likelihood right itself. Uninterfered with, we would have seen a good number of company's fail, which would have made unemployment worse for some time but it would trim inefficient, weak companies while allowing efficient companies to flourish. Sometimes the economy needs some trimming, look at Circuit City as an example of that.

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

I suppose your talking about health care. You realize Canada also has Universal Care? And that it works? And that people like it?

SOME people like it, others hate it. And "working" is, like I said w/ the economy, very subjective. Those that have to wait months, even years for a potentially lifesaving surgery might not agree that it "works." Yes, such examples are the extreme, but they are still examples. I'm ecstatic that the administration seems to be willing to drop the "public option" from their health care overhaul. I really think that it will ultimately be a very good decision to do so.

[Tigers]

wasn't the economy always bad from ww2?

[TigerTank77]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Actually, socialism by definition mean 'fail ideology', so I win.

See, I can make up definitions to prove my argument too.

Seriously though, socialism just means government control of the economy.

LOL your so witty. Because capitalism is perfect am I right?

You really don't even know what socialism is, do you? Especially democratic socialism? The kind a lot of European countries have?

Originally Posted by BigBL87

SOME people like it, others hate it. And "working" is, like I said w/ the economy, very subjective. Those that have to wait months, even years for a potentially lifesaving surgery might not agree that it "works." Yes, such examples are the extreme, but they are still examples. I'm ecstatic that the administration seems to be willing to drop the "public option" from their health care overhaul. I really think that it will ultimately be a very good decision to do so.

The system we have now has the same problem, only instead of making people wait, we just actively deny them and tell them "tough shit". And it's a lot more frequent here. But I'm aware that neither system is perfect, I just don't think people should die because they're poor.

[no.ordinary.dreamer]

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

The system we have now has the same problem, only instead of making people wait, we just actively deny them and tell them "tough shit". And it's a lot more frequent here. But I'm aware that neither system is perfect, I just don't think people should die because they're poor.

it is ILLEGAL to deny someone treatment when they come into an emergency room even if they dont have insuarance. (I worked in an emergency room.) If the insurance company is refusing to pay for any of it fight with them and tell the hospital what is going on to. Eventually they will pay for more of it trust me my family has had to do it a couple of times.

The mother of one of the guys that used to work for my dad lived in Canada but when on vacation in Florida when she was in florida she had a heart attack. When she went back to Canada after she was treated in the U.S. her doctor said that if she was in Canada when she had her heart attack she probably would have died because they don’t have the time, space, money, resources, or enough good doctors to treat her.
Another example of the problems of universal healthcare is that my dad had a kidney stone when living in Canada. There weren’t enough rooms so he was stuck on a gurney in the hallway for several days. Eventually his blood started becoming toxic and his only options were to go the U.S. or plead with the hospital to get a urologist to come and treat him. At that point in time that week there were only 3 urologists on call for emergencies for the ENTIRE city of Montreal. Bare in mind that Montreal is one of the largest cities in Canada. My mom argued with the hospital enough to finally get a urologist in to treat him.

[Grizabella]

The mother of one of the guys that used to work for my dad lived in Canada but when on vacation in Florida when she was in florida she had a heart attack. When she went back to Canada after she was treated in the U.S. her doctor said that if she was in Canada when she had her heart attack she probably would have died because they don’t have the time, space, money, resources, or enough good doctors to treat her.
Another example of the problems of universal healthcare is that my dad had a kidney stone when living in Canada. There weren’t enough rooms so he was stuck on a gurney in the hallway for several days. Eventually his blood started becoming toxic and his only options were to go the U.S. or plead with the hospital to get a urologist to come and treat him. At that point in time that week there were only 3 urologists on call for emergencies for the ENTIRE city of Montreal. Bare in mind that Montreal is one of the largest cities in Canada. My mom argued with the hospital enough to finally get a urologist in to treat him.

While both of those situations are bad, there are horror stories on both sides of the border. And, you can hardly only look at Canada and then declare that universal health care is a failure. Universal health care exists in other countries too (mainly every developed nation besides the US). France is consistently ranked as one of the best countries in the world for healthcare, and it has a universal system. According to this study, Canada does much better than the United States in terms of deaths that could have been prevented by timely and effective health care, with France at the top:

http://www.reuters.com/article/lates.../idUSN07651650

France did best -- with 64.8 deaths deemed preventable by timely and effective health care per 100,000 people, in the study period of 2002 and 2003. Japan had 71.2 and Australia had 71.3 such deaths per 100,000 people. The United States had 109.7 such deaths per 100,000 people, the researchers said.

After the top three, Spain was fourth best, followed in order by Italy, Canada, Norway, the Netherlands, Sweden, Greece, Austria, Germany, Finland, New Zealand, Denmark, Britain, Ireland and Portugal, with the United States last

Almost all of those countries that are ahead of the United States in preventable deaths are ones which implement some form or another of universal health care.

[Khadra]

Originally Posted by no.ordinary.dreamer

it is ILLEGAL to deny someone treatment when they come into an emergency room even if they dont have insuarance. (I worked in an emergency room.) If the insurance company is refusing to pay for any of it fight with them and tell the hospital what is going on to. Eventually they will pay for more of it trust me my family has had to do it a couple of times.

By the time people end up in the emergency room it's often too late. There are many illnesses that must be caught early, but because people can't afford to go to the doctor they have to wait until it's progressed too far and end up dying. Emergency room care is good, but NOT good enough.

Originally Posted by no.ordinary.dreamer

The mother of one of the guys that used to work for my dad lived in Canada but when on vacation in Florida when she was in florida she had a heart attack. When she went back to Canada after she was treated in the U.S. her doctor said that if she was in Canada when she had her heart attack she probably would have died because they don’t have the time, space, money, resources, or enough good doctors to treat her.
Another example of the problems of universal healthcare is that my dad had a kidney stone when living in Canada. There weren’t enough rooms so he was stuck on a gurney in the hallway for several days. Eventually his blood started becoming toxic and his only options were to go the U.S. or plead with the hospital to get a urologist to come and treat him. At that point in time that week there were only 3 urologists on call for emergencies for the ENTIRE city of Montreal. Bare in mind that Montreal is one of the largest cities in Canada. My mom argued with the hospital enough to finally get a urologist in to treat him.

It is extremely rare that someone dies because of the Canadian health care system. Emergencies are the first priority in the hospitals. That means people having heart attacks are going to be treated just as fast here as in the US. I am also certain that they wouldn't have let your father die. If it was an emergency he would have been treated ASAP, but it must not have been as urgent as you thought.

[Casey.]

Originally Posted by no.ordinary.dreamer

it is ILLEGAL to deny someone treatment when they come into an emergency room even if they dont have insuarance. (I worked in an emergency room.) If the insurance company is refusing to pay for any of it fight with them and tell the hospital what is going on to. Eventually they will pay for more of it trust me my family has had to do it a couple of times.

Yes it is illegal to deny someone treatment in the E.R, however a lot of people won't go to the emergency room if they don't have insurance, because they can't afford the bill.Also, the wait time is horrible.

I'm not fond of Obama's Health Care plan, I'm actually not fond of a lot of the things he had don't, but I don't think socialism is a bad thing, honestly.Not Democratic Socialism at least.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

Because capitalism is perfect am I right?

Why isn't it? Inb4 huurr financial crisis.

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

You really don't even know what socialism is, do you? Especially democratic socialism? The kind a lot of European countries have?

Socialism merely entails government intervention in the economy. This does vary by degree which is where democratic socialism comes in. Care to prove me wrong by making up another biased at best and completely untruthful at worst definition?

[(Insert Name Here)]

Look I'm gonna hop off my soapbox and drop the subject but let me say this: You will think Bush a hero when Obama's term is over....if its ever over

[Allons-y!]

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

Can I ask a serious question here? What the hell is wrong with a little bit of socialism? Socialism by definition means "people before the state" so in sense he's putting the people before the government. Which is what he's trying to do. Which is how it always should have been. And I'm talking Democratic Socialism, not Libertarian Socialism.

Socialism is not a dirty word, and it bugs the shit out of me when people throw it around like an insult.

I've always been of the same mind.

[Angel]

Don't put all your eggs in one basket, darling.

[Algernon]

If he gets my boyfriend a greencard, I'm all for him. =( Please God let it happen.

[Kryptonite]

I was a strong supporter of him during the election, and I still strongly support him. You can't expect him to fix years of mistakes in a few months.

[Oiseau the Little Bird!]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Why isn't it? Inb4 huurr financial crisis.

Take your /b/isms someplace else. This is a place for respectful debate, not mockery. All of us, as unfortunate and inconvenient as it is, have the right to an opinion -- all of us have to deal with that, and you are certainly no exception. You can conduct yourself in a more mature and respectable manner.

Personally, I think it's too early to tell about Obama. A whopping 8 months in office is hardly enough time to say that we're definitely going downhill. FTR, I didn't vote for Obama.

[no.ordinary.dreamer]

Originally Posted by Alex

I was a strong supporter of him during the election, and I still strongly support him. You can't expect him to fix years of mistakes in a few months.

Yeah you cant expect him to fix it all especially not right away; HOWEVER, he tripled our national dept within his first 3 months in office. He spent more money in a smaller amount of time then ANY other president. I dont get how ANYONE would think that during a time of economic crisis and a HUGE dept on top of that that spending MORE money would be a good thing.

STOP SPENDING!

politicians suck. All of them. Democrats and Republicans and Independents. Some suck more than others but we NEED to start electing smart people that will represent us well And do not just sound or look good. How superficial can we be

Sorry ranted a little

[Kol]

Also you can't just make money to spend which Obama is doing..

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Alex

I was a strong supporter of him during the election, and I still strongly support him. You can't expect him to fix years of mistakes in a few months.

The point isn't that he hasn't fixed the mistakes of the past, but that he isn't even working towards doing so, and is simply making even more of the same mistakes.

Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird!

Take your /b/isms someplace else. This is a place for respectful debate, not mockery. All of us, as unfortunate and inconvenient as it is, have the right to an opinion -- all of us have to deal with that, and you are certainly no exception. You can conduct yourself in a more mature and respectable manner.

Did I ever say he didn't have the right to an opinion? I just decided to head off the inevitable 'because of the financial crisis' 'how is that a valid example of capitalism failing?' 'because... DOWN WITH CAPITALISM WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE' that always occurs when there is any debate about the merits of capitalism.

Originally Posted by Oiseau the Little Bird!

Personally, I think it's too early to tell about Obama. A whopping 8 months in office is hardly enough time to say that we're definitely going downhill.

That's only not enough time if you know nothing about economics and have no concept about good economic policy beyond 'let's wait and see what happens'.

Originally Posted by no.ordinary.dreamer

I dont get how ANYONE would think that during a time of economic crisis and a HUGE dept on top of that that spending MORE money would be a good thing.

It's called keynesianism, and unfortunately the majority of economists think it offers good policy prescriptions to varying degrees.

[TigerTank77]

Originally Posted by Frosty

Did I ever say he didn't have the right to an opinion? I just decided to head off the inevitable 'because of the financial crisis' 'how is that a valid example of capitalism failing?' 'because... DOWN WITH CAPITALISM WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE' that always occurs when there is any debate about the merits of capitalism.

For the record, I wasn't saying down with capitalism. What I was trying to say, is that capitalism by itself doesn't work (like everything else), and that it definitely cannot be relied on by itself to pull us out of our recession.

So for the love of god, do not assume that I'm an anarchist.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

For the record, I wasn't saying down with capitalism...
So for the love of god, do not assume that I'm an anarchist.

Hyperbole on my part.

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

What I was trying to say, is that capitalism by itself doesn't work (like everything else), and that it definitely cannot be relied on by itself to pull us out of our recession.

So back to the original question, what about it doesn't work, why can't it pull the economy out of recession, and how can government intervention do so?

[Mythic]

I'm still at a loss as to what's so bad about socialism. Democratic socialism has proven itself to be the most stable form of modern government, while serving the interests of the people most effectively. It's not as if Obama is trying to turn the United States into a Soviet-era Communist dictatorship. If anything, he's preventing the United States from becoming any more of a democratic oligarchy.

The economy was in the pits before Obama took office, and although Bush certainly didn't help our economy, the truth is that our economy has been in a dangerous cycle ever since the days of Reaganomics. Yes, Bill Clinton brought the United States a large surplus, but even there, many things weren't seen, and the costs often came up later on.

I'm still confident in Barack Obama. I desperately hope that the U.S. sees universal healthcare to some degree before he leaves office, because I have many complex medical issues that I quite literally cannot afford to deal with if I lose my insurance. As for all of you who seem terrified of assuring health to your fellow citizens, perhaps you should stop listening to the blatant lies spewing from the mouths of the far right-wing conservative nutjobs.

[Union Of V]

[Insert Name Here] you're insane full stop.

Socialism is focusing on improving the lives of people as opposed to enriching the elite so it is essential for a working democracy. Don't be a complete idiot and do the old socialism = communism trick.

Wake up people! Spending is what gets us out of recessions. Do you know what ended the Wall Street Crash? Government borrowing and spending! What about the post-WWII depression? Giving money to European countries to spend! We live in a consumerist society, spending is what makes the wheels of the economy turn!

[Mythic]

Originally Posted by Union Of V

[Insert Name Here] you're insane full stop.

Socialism is focusing on improving the lives of people as opposed to enriching the elite so it is essential for a working democracy. Don't be a complete idiot and do the old socialism = communism trick.

Wake up people! Spending is what gets us out of recessions. Do you know what ended the Wall Street Crash? Government borrowing and spending! What about the post-WWII depression? Giving money to European countries to spend! We live in a consumerist society, spending is what makes the wheels of the economy turn!

Thank you!

It's strange to me that so many people don't seem to understand this concept. History has proven this to be true time and time again. Just because you don't see immediate results doesn't mean it's not working.

[Kryptonite]

Originally Posted by no.ordinary.dreamer

Yeah you cant expect him to fix it all especially not right away; HOWEVER, he tripled our national dept within his first 3 months in office. He spent more money in a smaller amount of time then ANY other president. I dont get how ANYONE would think that during a time of economic crisis and a HUGE dept on top of that that spending MORE money would be a good thing.

STOP SPENDING!

politicians suck. All of them. Democrats and Republicans and Independents. Some suck more than others but we NEED to start electing smart people that will represent us well And do not just sound or look good. How superficial can we be

Sorry ranted a little

You can't do it for free, unfortunately. The national debt is increasing daily because of wars, etc, and he cannot control that. If you look at the US Federal Budget, which was approved by congress, it really wasn't significantly more than previous President's administration. Barack Obama is a brilliant man, compared to President Bush and Clinton. Sadly some people might have voted for him because of his race or how he speaks, but he presented something to the people that McCain simply didn't: hope.

President Obama gives weekly addresses, the last thing that came close to this, I believe, was FDR.

[Mythic]

Originally Posted by Alex

President Obama gives weekly addresses, the last thing that came close to this, I believe, was FDR.

Actually, Bush and other previous presidents gave weekly radio addresses.

I'm not trying to call you out or argue, just pointing out something most people don't listen to.

[TigerTank77]

Originally Posted by Arbiter

Thank you!

It's strange to me that so many people don't seem to understand this concept. History has proven this to be true time and time again. Just because you don't see immediate results doesn't mean it's not working.

Thats the problem. America is country built on immediate gratification. People don't want to be patient, they want what they want and they want it when they want it. Mix that in with the fact that only a small percentage of the population really understands the concept of economics, and/or economic systems, and BAM! Obama MUST be a tyrant!

[Maverick]

Obama is just another puppet for the Federal Reserve.

[Mythic]

Originally Posted by Maverick

Obama is just another puppet for the Federal Reserve.

Where do you get this idea?

[Kol]

Originally Posted by Arbiter

Where do you get this idea?

Alex Jones.

[Kryptonite]

Originally Posted by Arbiter

Actually, Bush and other previous presidents gave weekly radio addresses.

I'm not trying to call you out or argue, just pointing out something most people don't listen to.

Hmm, I must find that lying source that said FDR was the last one. Thanks, though. I don't mind.

[Mythic]

Originally Posted by EDGE

Alex Jones.

Could you cite a real source, please? Something other than a radical right-wing talk show host?

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Union Of V

Socialism is focusing on improving the lives of people as opposed to enriching the elite so it is essential for a working democracy.

I can 'focus' on curing someone with cancer by applying leeches, but the point at hand isn't how good my intentions are, but how good my actions are.

Originally Posted by Union Of V

Wake up people! Spending is what gets us out of recessions. Do you know what ended the Wall Street Crash? Government borrowing and spending!

The economy didn't really recover until WWII ended.

Originally Posted by Union Of V

What about the post-WWII depression? Giving money to European countries to spend!

No, the post WWII recession (hardly could be called a depression) ended quickly and resulted in a period of substantial growth. This could all occur because much of the new deal and WWII era economic controls were loosened in the post war period.

[no.ordinary.dreamer]

Money is going under the table to organizations like acorn because all obama knows how to do is chicago politics.
That whole thing with the gov. telling anyone that gets emails or hears anything from people they know that is against obama and/or the healthcare reform that they should email the government and tell them what was said is ridiculous. It is also ILLEGAL because it is taking away our right to free speech. Obama is trying to bully the american people but what he doesnt understand is that the american people fight back.

Also the reason canada has less deaths then us is because canada's population is around 33,487,208 (July 2009 est.) and the US's population is about 307,212,123 (July 2009 est.) (i got that info from the CIA world fact book) so of course we would have more deaths because we have a much larger population.

[Union Of V]

Originally Posted by Frosty

I can 'focus' on curing someone with cancer by applying leeches, but the point at hand isn't how good my intentions are, but how good my actions are.

What??? That's completely irrelevant. I was explaining what socialism was, and you start saying that intentions don't equal actions. Why??? Where is the link?

Originally Posted by Frosty

The economy didn't really recover until WWII ended.

I don't know what to say, my sources are at the bottom of a 40cm cubed box under the table...

Originally Posted by Frosty

No, the post WWII recession (hardly could be called a depression) ended quickly and resulted in a period of substantial growth. This could all occur because much of the new deal and WWII era economic controls were loosened in the post war period.

Ended quickly? In the US, yes, because it had only been at war for 4 years and hadn't seen any fighting on the mainland. The European economy however was devastated (over here, the wartime "Emergency" didn't officially end until 1976).