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Gender (In)Equality - January 1st 2010, 10:51 PM

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This has been brought up a couple days ago when my sister explained the situation about her boyfriend's father. Her boyfriend's father was abusive to his wife (my sister's boyfriend's mother). The father has done some things that ultimately scared the mother (like putting a gun to the mother's head). The father refused to pay child support, but because the mother was scared...she didn't take him to court for 10 years. With the father getting back on track, having a wife and kids, he's accumulated over 125,000 dollars of child support.

My sister and I debated about this for a brief second, and I concluded that "it's not right to abuse someone, but it's also not right to abuse the system".

This is NOT A SEXIST THREAD.

When a woman becomes pregnant, she can choose whether to have an abortion or not. Now, I can completely understand that it's a woman's body and therefore she can do whatever she wants, but as far as a man's finances...he can't do whatever he wants. With my understanding, if a man gets a woman pregnant and she decides to keep the baby, even though he tried to convince her otherwise, he still has to sacrifice a certain amount of money for the support of that child...even if he doesn't want to, regardless of the circumstances.

Do you think any of the above situations are right? Is there such thing as gender inequality? Do you think that the world will ever treat men and women equally? Why or why not?
   
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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 1st 2010, 11:15 PM

This is very interesting... I've really never thought of it that way.
In a perfect world, the couple could sit down and come to a mutual agreement whether to abort, put up for adoption, or keep the baby. Since it is also, usually, both their doing if a woman becomes pregnant. I mean, either one of them could have said "hey, put on a comdom" if they didn't really want to get pregnant. It's not compeltely the man's job.

But our world is obviously not perfect. Sometimes, a woman might not even tell the dad for a long time. Or decide she wants to keep it when he doesn't. Or maybe even decide she wants to abort when he doesn't...

But honestly, I'm not sure what could be done to make the system better. Anyone have any better ideas?
I mean, you don't want it to be an optional thing for a man to pay child support or not or else women and children would be getting screwed everywhere by crappy fathers... But you've really pointed something out...



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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 1st 2010, 11:51 PM

Gender equality won't happen for a while. If the woman walks out on the man, or the woman keeps a baby against the mans will then it's not fair that he has to pay child support, though, this is only one of the problems these days =/
   
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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 12:11 AM

of course he should have to pay child support.. he should have thought about the consequences before having sex with her. i have no sympathy for men who have unwanted children and then complain about or refuse to support the child financially.


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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 12:33 AM

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of course he should have to pay child support.. he should have thought about the consequences before having sex with her. i have no sympathy for men who have unwanted children and then complain about or refuse to support the child financially.
Fine then, what about when the mother stops the father from seeing the children, should he still have to pay? Because it's not fair that if he's being disowned as a father that he still has to pay child support. And what what if it's the womans fault she got pregnant, should he then still have to pay?
   
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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 12:42 AM

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Fine then, what about when the mother stops the father from seeing the children, should he still have to pay? Because it's not fair that if he's being disowned as a father that he still has to pay child support. And what what if it's the womans fault she got pregnant, should he then still have to pay?
if the mother stops the father seeing the child then he should go about getting part custody of the child if he wants to.. the child is just as much his and it is hers.

and it's never entirely the woman's fault that she got pregnant - it takes two to tango. even if she lied about being on the pill or whatever - the man knows that if you have sex there is a chance of a baby, even if the woman is using her birth control correctly!


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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 12:44 AM

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if the mother stops the father seeing the child then he should go about getting part custody of the child if he wants to.. the child is just as much his and it is hers.

and it's never entirely the woman's fault that she got pregnant - it takes two to tango. even if she lied about being on the pill or whatever - the man knows that if you have sex there is a chance of a baby, even if the woman is using her birth control correctly!
Custody, and part-custody can be denied, so what then?

And may I remind you that sex isn't the only way to get pregnant?
   
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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 01:02 AM

At the end of the day if you're having sex you know that one of the concequences of that may be a baby. It takes two to tumble as they say - the guy must have known there was a chance when it happened.
   
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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 01:03 AM

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And may I remind you that sex isn't the only way to get pregnant?
What are you talking about?

There are things such as IVF, but if couples are having that kind of treatment they are clearly trying for a baby, so this situation doesn't apply?

   
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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 01:06 AM

There is Gender inequality, yes. As Elle said, it takes two to tango. If she gets pregnant, and he doesn't want the child, then he doesn't have to be involved with the baby. Should he pay child support? Only if he's ordered to.

One of my friends got pregnant, by her ex-boyfriend at the time, and although she didn't want to be with the guy anymore, she had the baby and she did not have him pay child support. It's her son, and although he gets to see the boy, he doesn't have to pay her money. but he does still buy stuff for the boy, and I know that he used to buy diapers and formula when the boy would visit him. It was a fair trade, for both of them. He didn't have to pay for another child legally, but he could help her out if he wanted to, and she didn't have to depend on him for support.

My point is, it can work out without child support, and things can be equal, but our society has a long way to go to get there.


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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 01:07 AM

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Custody, and part-custody can be denied, so what then?

And may I remind you that sex isn't the only way to get pregnant?
urrmm.. no, but i'm sure you'll enlighten me.

damn.. i should have listened at school.


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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 01:16 AM

How come the woman gets to make the decision all on her own? Shouldn't they be able to make a joint decision since it's both of theirs child? I mean yes, it is her body, but isn't it his sperm as well? As I said earlier, in a perfect world this would happen every time, but it doesn't. Sometimes they can't always come to the same decision I guess but still... =/

I mean, I still think the dad should pay support, but... well I dont know. perhaps it depends on the situation. I wish people would just wear a condom and get birth control and just be more careful, and if things to happen and one gets pregnant, then I wish they could just act like the adults they are and come up with a joint solution.



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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 01:22 AM

Well, I know this is unlikely but I'm sure it happens, but a woman could take some sperm and introduce it to her insides, this doesn't require intercourse, just a finger, and some semen... but still it's possible.
   
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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 01:24 AM

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Well, I know this is unlikely but I'm sure it happens, but a woman could take some sperm and introduce it to her insides, this doesn't require intercourse, just a finger, and some semen... but still it's possible.
ah, yes! sperm-stealing women..

oh, please.. that's pretty ridiculous.


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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 01:26 AM

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ah, yes! sperm-stealing women..

oh, please.. that's pretty ridiculous.
But is it really though? You do get women that will do practically anything to get pregnant, so them wanking off some guy and stealing the sperm isn't that ridiculous is it?
   
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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 01:28 AM

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When a woman becomes pregnant, she can choose whether to have an abortion or not. Now, I can completely understand that it's a woman's body and therefore she can do whatever she wants, but as far as a man's finances...he can't do whatever he wants. With my understanding, if a man gets a woman pregnant and she decides to keep the baby, even though he tried to convince her otherwise, he still has to sacrifice a certain amount of money for the support of that child...even if he doesn't want to, regardless of the circumstances.
This has actually been one of my pet annoyances for a while so I've been thinking about it. Personally I think that if the man states early on in the pregnancy that he does not want the child then he should be allowed to submit the statement to the child support agency and he should then be absolved of any responsibility, financial or other, that comes with the child. I do think however he should be made to pay for a part of the abortion or medical expenses for the birth if the woman goes for adoption or for keeping the child. This is the only way it's fair as I see it, as the woman has the ability to get rid of the baby either through abortion or adoption so the man should have the ability to effectively abort the baby from his life. However he should only be allowed to do this if he stated that he did not wish to have the baby well within the period of time the woman could get an abortion within. Of course there would have to be qualifications to that but that's the general idea.

Plus sometimes it's not totally unknown for a woman to poke holes in condoms etc to try to get pregnant when they know their partner does not want a baby. Of course some men do this as well, in which case I'd fully support them having to pay whatever.

As for the main question. I'm hopeful there may one day be total equality but as for how long it could take; God knows.

Last edited by Jack; January 2nd 2010 at 01:41 AM.
   
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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 01:44 AM

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There is Gender inequality, yes. As Elle said, it takes two to tango. If she gets pregnant, and he doesn't want the child, then he doesn't have to be involved with the baby. Should he pay child support? Only if he's ordered to.
Well, that's where I jump in and say that "two to tango" is not entirely true. Because you said "ordered" says a lot right there. Because he was ordered to pay child support, he had no decision in the matter. It was simply non-negotiable. And since a man and woman having sex can produce the baby, this is where I'm asking why it shouldn't be negotiated? It's the woman's body, but it's the man's sperm. It's both adult's DNA, and I think that it's only fair to at least negotiate the amount of child support or whatever the case may be. Just because a man impregnates a woman with his sperm shouldn't mean that the woman is legally able to fight for all the money that she can get and use it against him. My dad had the toughest time of his life before my sister turned 18 because my mom took my sister to the doctor for even the insignificant things...and my dad had to pay for all the doctor visits either out of his pocket, or with his health insurance. Now he doesn't have health insurance, because he can't even afford it. My mom took a large amount of money from him, and she probably makes twice as much as he does...and she's not the one living with her parents! That's what I consider abusing the system. I would understand an agreement, paying X amount of dollars for this, for that, to support the child, to be a responsible parent, but it shouldn't be where just because he had consensual sex with the woman, where it takes two to tango, where both people are at fault, doesn't mean that he should be dragged in court and forced to pay amount that he may or may not agree with.

Quote:
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One of my friends got pregnant, by her ex-boyfriend at the time, and although she didn't want to be with the guy anymore, she had the baby and she did not have him pay child support. It's her son, and although he gets to see the boy, he doesn't have to pay her money. but he does still buy stuff for the boy, and I know that he used to buy diapers and formula when the boy would visit him. It was a fair trade, for both of them. He didn't have to pay for another child legally, but he could help her out if he wanted to, and she didn't have to depend on him for support.

My point is, it can work out without child support, and things can be equal, but our society has a long way to go to get there.
In a perfect society, that would happen. But society is far from perfect, and therefore there are women out there who will get impregnated by men (like my mom) and use the law to her advantage by abusing the system. This pretty much proves that there is no REASON why there shouldn't be an agreement of some sort. I don't think that men should be let off the loose that easily, but they definitely shouldn't be forced into paying a ridiculous amount of money when the mothers may or may not use it for their children.

   
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Re: Gender (In)Equality - January 2nd 2010, 01:54 AM

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This has actually been one of my pet annoyances for a while so I've been thinking about it. Personally I think that if the man states early on in the pregnancy that he does not want the child then he should be allowed to submit the statement to the child support agency and he should then be absolved of any responsibility, financial or other, that comes with the child. I do think however he should be made to pay for a part of the abortion or medical expenses for the birth if the woman goes for adoption or for keeping the child. This is the only way it's fair as I see it, as the woman has the ability to get rid of the baby either through abortion or adoption so the man should have the ability to effectively abort the baby from his life. However he should only be allowed to do this if he stated that he did not wish to have the baby well within the period of time the woman could get an abortion within. Of course there would have to be qualifications to that but that's the general idea.

Plus sometimes it's not totally unknown for a woman to poke holes in condoms etc to try to get pregnant when they know their partner does not want a baby. Of course some men do this as well, in which case I'd fully support them having to pay whatever.

As for the main question. I'm hopeful there may one day be total equality but as for how long it could take; God knows.
Oh, absolutely. Medical expenses...no doubt. If a woman endures pregnancy, then the man should no doubtfully pay for the medical expenses. Beyond that, I think it should be negotiated. If there's written documentation, legal documentation of course, then alls well. But if the man runs away or anything like that, then I think he should be tracked down. But men should have SOME law on his side.
   
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