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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 12:43 AM

ok a few months ago there was the Clean Air Act passed in my state. making it illegal to smoke in a public place. there are signs up saying no smoking and smokers can only smoke in there car if its on private property or in there own house.

it got me thinking it sounds to me like segregation and discrimination. and it reminds me of the 1900-1970s where there was segregation of "white and colored people"

id like to hear your thoughts on this topic??
   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 12:47 AM

Can't forget about the horrors of WW2 against the Jewish people.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 12:48 AM

that is true. but i think its BS they can pass a law like that. im going to get some people around me and hold a huge protest on it.
   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 12:54 AM

i think that it's ok to ban smoking in public areas that are confined spaces.. but if people are in open spaces i don't think they should be banned from smoking. i hate smoking but i don't think it's appropriate to say that people can only smoke in on their own property or in their car or whatever.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 01:00 AM

i can understand that alot of people dont like smoking. but that gives them no right to say you can only smoke in your house or on private property. even in open air events if there are a group of people there you cant smoke.
   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 01:09 AM

But when it was black people separated from white people there wasn't a medical reason for that. People die from passive smoking.

If smokers want to smoke the cancer sticks themselves and increase their risk of cancer, heart attacks etc then that's fine but I don't think non smokers should have to deal with it. Even if open areas you still get wafts of smoke blown in your face.

I don't think that smoking in outdoor areas should be banned though but it'd be nice if smokers didn't blow smoke right in your face when you walk passed them.


   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 01:17 AM

then alcohol should be banned from being consumed in public places. because a number of them will get behind the wheel and people can die from that. and i can understand why they banned it. but still its unconstitutional in my opinion. i thought we where past the age of segregation.
   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 01:45 AM

Well I’m over here in Canada you know.. your good friend from the north, anyways - I wish they had those laws over here. Although now most places ban smoking I think its disgusting and I wish people could see how unhealthy it is.
   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 02:08 AM

In Mexico that law passed a while ago. I don't smoke but I do think it is an "unfair" law. For example some of my friends smoke and if we want to go get a cafe they have to step outside to have a smoke, which is annoying because we have having a good time talking and stuff and you them to have to go outside. Or we have to pay some money for the waiter to shut up and not say anything
Plus the cafe place is for people over 18.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 02:20 AM

Ok, if passive smoke is as dangerous to lungs as it is made out to be, then I do not think it should be allowed in public places, outside or in. I wish I knew more about how bad passive smoke is for non-smokers... but I guess that's hard to measure.

I think that people should be allowed to what they want as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others, and the right to good health and healthy non-smoked up air is a right to me... I guess smokers are some of the easiest things to stop when it comes to polluters?


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 02:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mexico View Post
In Mexico that law passed a while ago. I don't smoke but I do think it is an "unfair" law. For example some of my friends smoke and if we want to go get a cafe they have to step outside to have a smoke, which is annoying because we have having a good time talking and stuff and you them to have to go outside. Or we have to pay some money for the waiter to shut up and not say anything
Plus the cafe place is for people over 18.
If you're having a good time they don't HAVE to go out for a smoke at that particular time. It's their choice.


   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 02:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mexico View Post
In Mexico that law passed a while ago. I don't smoke but I do think it is an "unfair" law. For example some of my friends smoke and if we want to go get a cafe they have to step outside to have a smoke, which is annoying because we have having a good time talking and stuff and you them to have to go outside. Or we have to pay some money for the waiter to shut up and not say anything
Plus the cafe place is for people over 18.
it's not unfair to make them go outside to smoke, what would be unfair is for the non-smokers to have to breathe in their cigarette smoke because a cafe is a confined space. it's their choice to smoke.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 02:29 AM

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If you're having a good time they don't HAVE to go out for a smoke at that particular time. It's their choice.
Yes they do, because they can't smoke inside. They have urges to smoke and they have to step outside. Even if you are having fun it doesn't mean your urges go away.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 02:31 AM

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Yes they do, because they can't smoke inside. They have urges to smoke and they have to step outside. Even if you are having fun it doesn't mean your urges go away.
so because they have an urge to smoke they should be allowed to endanger the health of those around them?


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January 4th 2010, 02:35 AM

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Originally Posted by Elle. View Post

it's not unfair to make them go outside to smoke, what would be unfair is for the non-smokers to have to breathe in their cigarette smoke because a cafe is a confined space. it's their choice to smoke.
Maybe I did not explain myself. The cafe has many suites with windows. You rent one and go with your friends to have a cafe. So the only people in the same room as you are your friends. Not strangers who son't like smoke.
Within the suite you rent i think they do have the right to smoke.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 02:37 AM

i can understand its bad for others health. plus take it from someone that has had addictions in the past. its hard to stop an addiction. and i also think its unfair they have to go outside to smoke. lets say you live in a cold place. and you have to go outside and smoke. isnt that bad for your health. the cold is bad for your health too.
   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 02:39 AM

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Within the suite you rent i think they do have the right to smoke.
well if you're paying for that particular room then it shouldn't be included in the law.. that's like renting a hotel room, you can rent a smoking room and are therefore allowed to smoke in it.

so long as that particular room was a 'smoking room' and the cafe also offered non-smoking rooms then i see no problem.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 02:41 AM

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i can understand its bad for others health. plus take it from someone that has had addictions in the past. its hard to stop an addiction. and i also think its unfair they have to go outside to smoke. lets say you live in a cold place. and you have to go outside and smoke. isnt that bad for your health. the cold is bad for your health too.
the cold is bad for your health? isn't it a bit hypocritical for a smoker to say they shouldn't have to go outside because they're worried about their health?..


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 02:45 AM

i can see your point on that. but i will say this. i dont think smokers should have to find a spot where no one is at just to smoke. that is unfair for the smoker. i am all about equal rights for everyone. and to me thats not equal.
   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 02:46 AM

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well if you're paying for that particular room then it shouldn't be included in the law.. that's like renting a hotel room, you can rent a smoking room and are therefore allowed to smoke in it.

so long as that particular room was a 'smoking room' and the cafe also offered non-smoking rooms then i see no problem.
That is the thing in Mexico you can't smoke in 'public' places so when you go to a cafe with your smoking friends they have to go outside or pay extra money to smoke inside. I'm not sure what the correct word for the extra money you pay is but I do think it's not fair.
Even if you rent the suite rules still apply to it.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 04:53 AM

It's not really discrimination. They are not saying that smokers can't go to a specific restaurant, but that they should refrain from smoking while there. Here, it's only in public buildings that smoking is banned. And I'm very much for it. I have asthma and cigarette smoke makes it difficult for me to breathe.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 07:47 AM

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the cold is bad for your health? isn't it a bit hypocritical for a smoker to say they shouldn't have to go outside because they're worried about their health?..
hahahaha that's such a good point. If it's cold, bundle up, you'll be fine.

I also agree with Casey's comment too, asthma is a good point, and no it's not discrimination. Even without asthma, second hand smoke is unhealthy.
The smell just bothers some people. I personally can't stand it when the smell clings to my hair and clothes all day.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 10:26 AM

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Yes they do, because they can't smoke inside. They have urges to smoke and they have to step outside. Even if you are having fun it doesn't mean your urges go away.
They might have urges but it doesn't mean they HAVE to give in to them. If they were having urges during sex, do you think they'd stop having sex to go and have a cigarette? I'm guessing no and I'd say if they were having sex they're having a good time.


   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 11:46 AM

Cas and Tess. i can understand your point. second had smoke can be bad. my dad smokes so i know the whole second had smoke thing. i understand that. but i still see this as unfair that if you want to smoke you have to either go outside or feel the pain of the urges. and Cara. i just have one question have you had an addiction? if you have you would understand that urges can control your life. and its hard to not listen to those urges.
   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 11:49 AM

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Cas and Tess. i can understand your point. second had smoke can be bad. my dad smokes so i know the whole second had smoke thing. i understand that. but i still see this as unfair that if you want to smoke you have to either go outside or feel the pain of the urges. and Cara. i just have one question have you had an addiction? if you have you would understand that urges can control your life. and its hard to not listen to those urges.
Yes actually I have had an addiction. I dealt with it. I know it's hard not to listen to the urges but it is possible.


   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 12:01 PM

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Cas and Tess. i can understand your point. second had smoke can be bad. my dad smokes so i know the whole second had smoke thing. i understand that. but i still see this as unfair that if you want to smoke you have to either go outside or feel the pain of the urges. and Cara. i just have one question have you had an addiction? if you have you would understand that urges can control your life. and its hard to not listen to those urges.
Personally, I'm very happy with the laws as they are. The smell of cigarettes alone makes me gag, and if there's smoke in the air I can barely breathe. This is true of a lot of people. If someone were to start smoking in a restaurant, we'd have to get up and leave instead. To me, that seems significantly less fair. The constitution doesn't give you the right to do anything you want. Your right to do anything ends the moment you're harming another person. Second hand smoke is harmful. I really don't see any grey area.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 07:16 PM

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Personally, I'm very happy with the laws as they are. The smell of cigarettes alone makes me gag, and if there's smoke in the air I can barely breathe. This is true of a lot of people. If someone were to start smoking in a restaurant, we'd have to get up and leave instead. To me, that seems significantly less fair. The constitution doesn't give you the right to do anything you want. Your right to do anything ends the moment you're harming another person. Second hand smoke is harmful. I really don't see any grey area.
I agree, and you know, maybe it's not completely fair to smokers, but the bottom line is, it's not discrimination. They're just looking out for others' health (coming back to the second hand smoke point) and it's just better for businesses. Here anyways, they found that once that law was put into action, sure they lost some business from smokers, but they gained many new customers who had been avoiding the place because of all the smoke. I did it, there were definitely places I avoided because there was always smoke everywhere.
Also, some places even expanded their outdoor patios for smokers!


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 08:16 PM

http://www.lungusa.org/stop-smoking/...and-smoke.html
Quote:
  • Secondhand smoke causes approximately 3,400 deaths from lung cancer and 22,700 to 69,600 deaths from heart disease each year.
  • Nonsmokers exposed to secondhand smoke at work are at increased risk for adverse health effects. Levels of secondhand smoke in restaurants and bars were found to be 2 to 5 times higher than in residences with smokers and 2 to 6 times higher than in office workplaces
http://www.smokefreediningpetition.com/whyban.php
Quote:
  • Secondhand smoke is a Group A carcinogen because it is a known cause of lung cancer in humans and contains 4,000 chemicals including known poisons such as formaldehyde, benzene, and hydrogen cyanide.
  • Bar and restaurant workers are 11/2 times more likely to die of lung cancer than they would be if bars and restaurants were 100 percent smoke-free.
  • Eight hours of working in a smoky bar is equivalent to smoking a pack of cigarettes a day.
  • Ventilation systems that cost tens of thousands of dollars may reduce odor, but fail to guard against secondhand smoke's real health dangers.
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 10:50 PM

It's not discrimination because smoking is a choice. You talk about "smokers" like they're a separate race or clan or something; they're not. Smoking is a choice. Being able to smoke wherever the heck you want is not a right that is protected in the constitution.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 10:52 PM

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It's not discrimination because smoking is a choice. You talk about "smokers" like they're a separate race or clan or something; they're not. Smoking is a choice. Being able to smoke wherever the heck you want is not a right that is protected in the constitution.
I have no idea why no one else, including me, mentioned the fact that it's a choice. That's a very good point.


   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 4th 2010, 11:25 PM

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then alcohol should be banned from being consumed in public places. because a number of them will get behind the wheel and people can die from that. and i can understand why they banned it. but still its unconstitutional in my opinion. i thought we where past the age of segregation.
Alcohol doesn't kill passer-byers, and it is illegal to consume it in most public places.

And referring to the smoking ban, good for them. It's illegal to walk around a street with a gun and randomly shoot people, while this may be more dangerous it also affects less people, and kills you quicker
   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 5th 2010, 02:15 AM

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the cold is bad for your health? isn't it a bit hypocritical for a smoker to say they shouldn't have to go outside because they're worried about their health?..
LOL That really made me laugh xD VERY good point, but I tell you, NYE; as a strictly social smoker I really hated that law with a passion xD



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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 5th 2010, 10:57 AM

I stopped reading all the replies, but I honestly would be ecstatic if my mom couldn't smoke anymore because the smoke bothers me a lot. One hotel we stay in a lot has no smoking rooms anymore, they have to go outside but they have ashtrays and it doesn't really get that cold. I understand the unfairness, but I myself would be very happy with no smoking laws, although I do think if you're on YOUR property, you should be able to smoke outside.



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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 6th 2010, 02:23 AM

yea they tried passing that in jersey a while back but since our air is so toxicto begin with it kinda fell thru. if ur gunna make no smoking laws like that then u gotta give smokers sumwhereto go ave smoke friendly areas we can go, cuz trust me its alot mor dangerous to every1 involved is u take a smokers cig away


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 6th 2010, 02:27 AM

I think that smoking bans in many public places should be encouraged. Second Hand Smoke is NOT healthy for anyone, especially those with breathing problems.

On the other hand, woodburning bans are stupid IMO.
   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 6th 2010, 08:36 PM

It's not discrimination at all. Smoking is a choice. Smokers aren't a different race or culture or anything. It's nothing like blacks and whites, honestly. You can't choose your race, you can choose to smoke or not. I know the urge is hard to resist, but people resist urges all the time. Self harm, smoking, alcohol, drugs, sex, etc. People resist all of those everyday, I think someone can resist the urge to smoke or find a place away from the public.

I mean, if smoking bans are discrimination, then drunk driving laws are too. Why can't those poor drunks share the roads with their sober friends? They are being segregated away from those who don't drink. So unfair, right? Or maybe it's because, like smokers, they are a public health risk.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 6th 2010, 09:06 PM

There are lots of public places where you're not allowed to drinking alcohol and can have it confiscated already in the UK.
   
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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 6th 2010, 09:37 PM

This doesn't even compare to the kind of discrimination that went on during the 1900's, and I think it's ridiculous to think so. If this law were passed because of people not approving of smokers themselves, this would be a different story. But the reason this law was passed was to the air we breathe cleaner and healthier.

People have the right to smoke, but people who don't smoke have the right to want clean, healthy air in public places. Besides, smokers aren't being denied the right to continue smoking. Is it really necessary to smoke everywhere you go? For instance, it always annoys me in restaurants when they seat me right next to the smoking section. Why is there a smoking section to begin with? Are people so addicted to smoking that they have to do so while eating?

Not only that, but you can't argue that smoking is extremely dangerous for all of us. It puts us at risk to lung cancer, among many other health problems. Second hand smoke can also put us at risk to such problems, and is therefore extremely dangerous. By eliminating smoking in public places, we are also eliminating the risk of health problems for many people.

This law is not meant to discriminate against smokers. It is not declaring them lesser, or unequal to nonsmokers. It is denying them the right to breathe smoke in our faces and blacken our lungs, sure, but it is not criticizing or belittling them for who they are.





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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 7th 2010, 05:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mexico View Post
. The cafe has many suites with windows. You rent one and go with your friends to have a cafe. So the only people in the same room as you are your friends.
A fair point, but in the winter people are less likely to use the windows. It can get very cold in winter, which will likely make one not want to open the windows.
Although, it depends what state we are talking about, but still, to Californians 10c is cold, so, I think the argument applies in most places. People are lazy when it comes to making themselves more uncomfortable, they will avoid doing it, because, naturally they want to remain comfortable.


Personally I think the law has been taken a bit far. Smoking in their cars and homes only? Ridiculous, that won't make any difference, maybe they should try putting a curfew on driving between certain hours, or applying a state law that will require car manufacturers to help reduce emissions, or promote their "fuel efficient" cars differently. Or a state law that requires businesses to reduce their emissions by 10% this year.

That would make a difference, this seems to be a lazy attempt at trying to do something environmentally friendly to please voters who are slowly becoming more environmentally conscious of their actions.


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Re: the new discrimination/segregation - January 8th 2010, 03:31 AM

Wow. I can't believe you're comparing smokers to Jews during WW2 and black people during the times of slavery. First of all, it's the smoker's choice to smoke. Second, they are hurting other people by smoking. Third, they're just being told to keep their toxic shit away from other people, not being brutally murdered and enslaved and abused.


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