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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 05:21 AM

This thread has been labeled as triggering by the original poster or by a Moderator. Please take this into consideration before continuing to read.

So before this becomes a big fight, this is a debate. Nothing more. So let's play nice, okay? If this does get out of hand, I, or another mod, will close this.

Now then, we haven't had a pro-choice/ pro-life debate in a while. So I thought it was time for another one. I know what my position on abortion is, but I am curious to hear others opinions on the topic.

I am pro-choice, for several reasons, but mainly because it is a woman's choice, and legalized abortion is safer than if it was illegal. So, opinions? Debates? For or against abortions, and why? Are there certain situations where abortions are okay?Are there times when they are not okay?


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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 06:26 AM

I support abortions throughout the duration of the pregnancy. If the woman has numerous abortions because she keeps having immense unprotected, willing sex, then I'm not a big fan of it being used then but I'll still support it in general. I view it in that it's the woman's call all the way. The male contributed to the pregnancy and as much as he may want the child, he's not carrying the fetus within himself so taking his input should be one only out of kindness and nothing else. The woman has to bare with her body getting contorted and having what is essentially a parasite living within her that is gradually expanding. If she does not want the child to be born or if certain medical complications arise, then I support her aborting it. When it comes to cultural or religious input by others onto her, such as her family shunning her pregnancy so she has to conceal it, I sympathize with her especially when she does want the child but once again, I support her aborting it. When the pregnancy is nearing its end, although abortions here are controversial, I support them because although the fetus can hear the inside and outside world, can presumably feel pain, has a working not fully-formed brain, etc..., it's still a fetus. It's always a human, there's no argument around that but it is not a person.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 06:56 AM

I am pro-life. It's an innocent child's life in steak. You have no right to take a baby's life, because of your actions. It's murder. It's a child, not a choice. A life is created at the very moment of conception. A baby's heart starts beating after 18 days.


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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 09:24 AM

Hi Casey!!

I hope you're having a super fine day.

I am BOTH 'pro-choice' AND 'pro-life'.

I think one of the biggest mistakes those who side with 'pro-choice' have made [And far too often continue to make] is to allow themselves to be labeled 'pro-abortion'. And I say that because I think very few 'pro-choice' people ARE in favour of abortions. In other words - they are NOT [For the most part] in favour of women getting an abortion - they are simply supporting her right to make that choice for herself.

That said...

I think abortions are a tragedy and should only be performed IF and WHEN being pregnant is a direct threat to that woman's life. I think of the fetus as a separate being and one that is residing inside of the woman. I do not consider the fetus to be the 'property of' the woman herself. So in that way - I am 'pro-life'. [An abortion should always be considered 'last option available']

When it comes to the argment against men having any real say - I would find that easy to swallow IF those who are 'pro-choice' truly believed that. And I say that because IF a woman wants to abort the 'baby' - and the 'man' doens't want her to do so - 'pro-choice' people will argue that doing so is HER CHOICE and that it's not up to HIM. That in the end - it doesn't really matter what the 'man' might say. Which is fine - as far as that argument goes. But where I have a problem is when the situation is reversed. If SHE wants to keep the 'baby' and HE does NOT want her to - SHE can legally force HIM to support both her and that baby financially. So suddenly - HE MATTERS. I think that stinks!! I say - make up your mind. Either a man plays a part in this - or he doesn't. If he doesn't want the baby - he should no longer be bound by ANY decision SHE makes.

All of the above changes if the man and the woman are married to each other. And sadly - that 'change' is often a divorce.

I hope that makes sense.

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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 09:57 AM

I'm pro-choice. I'm a firm believer that a child should come into the world and be wanted. They should have the best life possible.
I know if I got pregnant before I was out of uni I'd have an abortion. Purely because I know I'm not equipped to raise a child, I can't support myself, and would be unfair to a child to raise them in this environment.


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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 01:29 PM

I'm pro-choice. I don't think anyone has the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body. But I personally wouldn't ever have an abortion.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 01:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by !!!YOU'RE$NUCKING$FUTZ!!! View Post
I support abortions throughout the duration of the pregnancy. If the woman has numerous abortions because she keeps having immense unprotected, willing sex, then I'm not a big fan of it being used then but I'll still support it in general. I view it in that it's the woman's call all the way. The male contributed to the pregnancy and as much as he may want the child, he's not carrying the fetus within himself so taking his input should be one only out of kindness and nothing else. The woman has to bare with her body getting contorted and having what is essentially a parasite living within her that is gradually expanding. If she does not want the child to be born or if certain medical complications arise, then I support her aborting it. When it comes to cultural or religious input by others onto her, such as her family shunning her pregnancy so she has to conceal it, I sympathize with her especially when she does want the child but once again, I support her aborting it. When the pregnancy is nearing its end, although abortions here are controversial, I support them because although the fetus can hear the inside and outside world, can presumably feel pain, has a working not fully-formed brain, etc..., it's still a fetus. It's always a human, there's no argument around that but it is not a person.
I agree with this. I support abortions unless they're used as a form of birth control (I mean like several times btw, not just one-off, like when the mother purposely has sex without a condom and thinks 'I can just get an abortion'). I think it's ultimately the woman's choice.



Last edited by Gingerbread Latte; February 21st 2010 at 04:56 PM.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 02:08 PM

Considering I don't really see a foetus (I've probably spelt that wrongly) as a 'baby' I am pro-choice. Like Lou said, if a child is going to come into this world they should at least be wanted :/


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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 02:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by !!!YOU'RE$NUCKING$FUTZ!!! View Post
. When the pregnancy is nearing its end, although abortions here are controversial, I support them because although the fetus can hear the inside and outside world, can presumably feel pain, has a working not fully-formed brain, etc..., it's still a fetus. It's always a human, there's no argument around that but it is not a person.
So you don't think that killing something that can hear and feel, although its brain is not functioning to the standard of a baby outside the womb, just because the mother doesn't want it is immoral?

I understand that many in this debate will not consider a fetus to be human. I strongly disagree with that view, but fair enough...

In that case, do you honestly believe it is moral to kill or have a pet put down just because it is no longer convenient to have it? Would it not be better to send this pet to a shelter so that it can have owners who will care for it?

I believe that adoption will always be a better option than abortion. As long as the girl is above the legal age of consent (16 in Ontario, Canada where I live) then she doesn't need her parent or even the father of the fetus to sign the adoption papers. There are so many couples who cannot have children and they are forced to go to other countries in order to adopt, because there is a shortage of children up for adoption in Canada.

My parents were forced to do this to adopt me. My biological mother was 16 when I was born and because she went through with her pregnancy, I now have the opportunity to live. Because of her, I've been able to go to university for journalism, get married and now I have a 6-month-old of my own. And I'm sure that there are millions of people who have similar stories.

Although some may not consider fetuses people, chances are high with proper medical care, they will become people if allowed the chance. 9 months of a woman's life is such a small sacrifice to make to give a baby a chance to live a full life. And although everyone has negative experiences, I think most will agree that they still prefer life to non-existence.

All that aside, I do believe that if the life of the mother is at stake, for medical reasons, the fetus can be sacrificed. Also, if a woman is raped and carrying the baby to term is too traumatic, she should be allowed to abort.
Because I believe that these circumstances can warrant killing the fetus, some might call me pro-choice, but I am not. I don't believe that it should be anyone's choice to kill a living being, and before the choice is made to abort, even under these circumstances, I believe that it had better be a life-or-death situation. Killing for self-defense, although tragic, is the only way I can condone killing at all.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 02:28 PM

Technically speaking it doesn't become classified as a 'baby' until it's 20 weeks old or weighs a certain amount, until then it's legally a mass of biological tissues. Abortions aren't normally performed after 15 (I think?) weeks either. This is why I don't really see it as a baby.


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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 02:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conspiracy. View Post
Technically speaking it doesn't become classified as a 'baby' until it's 20 weeks old or weighs a certain amount, until then it's legally a mass of biological tissues. Abortions aren't normally performed after 15 (I think?) weeks either. This is why I don't really see it as a baby.
You've been misinformed. It becomes a fetus at 14 weeks. And between 16 and 20 weeks the fetus can hear, see, and feel. This is according to http://www.pregnancy-facts.com/artic...t/timeline.php

The USA does legally deny abortions until week 18. This is definitely after it is considered a fetus, and after it can hear, see, and feel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

There are no regulations against late-term abortions (abortions after 20 weeks) in Canada. My proof:

"Canada is one of only three countries in the world with no laws restricting abortion."

http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/postionpaper...-Abortions.PDF
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 03:27 PM

I am pro-choice, on the basis that that doesn't mean pro-abortion.
I don't think an abortion should be used like contraception ... like people who use no protection, get an abortion and don't learn from their mistake -> it happens again.
But if a condom splits or female contraception doesn't work, then I think it is the choice of the mother (who should tell the father in my view) whether she keeps the child or not. The same with rape and life threatening, if a woman does not want a child that shold be her choice.
I know there is always the whole "if you don't want a child, there are plenty of people who do so get it adopted". I don't know about others but I would never be able to give a child up. If I am going to carry a child for nine months then I will raise it myself. Personally the whole "knowing the chlid was wnated by somebody" thing ... I think if I were that child I'd feel horrible that my own parents didn't want me. Still I know not everyone thinks like that, having friends who are adopted, it's just my view.


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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 03:52 PM

pro-choice. it's not my, nor anyone else's place to say what other women should do with their own bodies and their own pregnancies. i'm not about to judge anyone for making the decision to have an abortion, unless i'm in the other woman's shoes then i can't say shit about what they choose to do, which i'm not. i'm actually unable to have children, but if by some sort of miracle i got pregnant i don't know if i personally could go through with an abortion. but that doesn't change my position on the fact that other women should be able to do what they want.


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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 04:27 PM

I am pro-life. I don't believe that anyone has the right to kill an innocent baby.


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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 04:38 PM

It's not a baby to me unless it can live without the mother's support... so when you are getting an abortion early on in the pregnancy I do not see it as "killing a baby" or a potential baby. Heck, all of my eggs are "potential babies" so every-time I have my period I am "killing human life" all they needed was a sperm. So many unwanted babies are being born.... and abandoned.... and not taken care of. Its her body, her decisions.

I am 500% pro-choice. Even if it as used as contraception.


   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 05:03 PM

In my eyes, it's murder. The baby may only be a phoetus inside the womb, but it's still alive. That said, if there's a serious risk to the mother and/or the baby should she go through with the pregnancy, then I feel it's ok for her to have the abortion, as, either way, at least one life could well have been lost. But - and this is just how I view it - to have an abortion just because you don't think you're in a position to look after the baby is murder, and goes to show that you aren't really in a position to be having sex in the first place.


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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 05:04 PM

I'm pro-choice as long as the mother isn't retarded.

I could understand one (or maybe even two abortions) because bad things happen to everyone, but I'm not going to support abortion when a 45 year old grown woman has several abortions. Having sex is a responsibility. If you are that lazy to use some form of contraception, then perhaps a baby will give you a good slap across the face.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 05:37 PM

Pro-choice. Genuinely can't understand why people want abortion to become illegal. It won't stop abortion, just kill lots of women.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 05:53 PM

until the fetus has come out and has teken its first breath on its own i still see it as a mass of tissue similar to a tumor if you will and i don't feel like any1 has the right to tell a women what she can and cannot do with her body. and yes as i said until it breaths on its own i do not see it as a human its a parasite

if an abortion is murder than every guy in here has commited manslaughter when they whack it as those too were thousands of potential kids


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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 05:59 PM

Pro-life.

1) We don’t know when life begins. But we do know that a fetus that is still in the womb, during the third trimester, can live outside of the womb if given the chance. Being pro-choice is in favor of third trimester abortions. Just because the fetus is in the womb does not give the mother the legal rights to terminate the pregnancy when the fetus could live on its own outside of the womb. That right there is killing a person. You can’t be pro-choice and anti-third trimester abortions. Because the pro-choice argument is that it is in the mother’s womb and therefore her decision.

2) A woman having an abortion is legal and is considered not killing a person in our country. Then why also in our country is killing a pregnant woman a double homicide? Why is it in the case that in one law the fetus is not a person but in another law the fetus is a person?

3) Killing an innocent person in this country is illegal. The reason it is illegal is because you are taking away the person’s future against their will. How is that any different from terminating a fetus? If allowed to live its natural life span the fetus will grow up and have a regular human future. So if you kill a fetus you are taking away its future. The exact same future you would be taking away from a person already born. Therefore terminating a pregnancy is considered killing. And therefore should be considered illegal.

4) An innocent human life should not be terminated just because the mother is inconvenienced by the pregnancy.

5) I have never heard a definition of “person” that includes only born humans and excludes fetuses.

6) I have never actually heard any argument that defends why a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy if she feels she is inconvenienced by it. We have programs like adoption if she does not want the child after birth. A lot of states also have the Safe Heaven programs where all the woman has to do is take their infant to a hospital, police or fire department, state they no long want the child and walk out. That is all they have to do, no questions asked.

7) Nine months of inconvenience and birth is not a reason to terminate an innocent human life.

8) I think there is a huge misconception that pro-lifers are anti-women. Which is so not true. There are organizations like http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/. (Note can be triggering) An organization made up of entirely women who had abortions who regret it and it has really negatively affected their life. It has affected their life so much that they have dedicated their life to being speaking to woman about not getting one and to make it illegal. It didn’t help their life to get an abortion and now they speak up against it. There is also http://www.feministsforlife.org/, Feminists for Life.

9) A human life is a human life. Whether it is pre-birth or post-birth there is no difference. There is no difference between a nine month old fetus and a one second old baby. And just because one is in the womb and one is out of the womb makes no difference. Being pro-choice, in my eyes, is being anti- human life.




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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 06:16 PM

100% pro-choice. There really is no serious argument against it.

If we ignore the boring moral side of the argument for a moment, even if I believe pro-choice wins that as well, and simply look at the practicalities of it the fact that abortion needs to be legal is obvious. The reason abortion is legal in the UK is because so many women were being killed or seriously and permanently injured by illegal back-alley abortions. There seriously is no other way to realistically look at it, by making abortions legal you ensure that only one potential human being rather than one potential human being and one actual human being dies. It's a one death is better than two deaths issue. If you realise that abortion is a necessary evil then you are pro-choice, no matter whether you may feel abortions are a horrible and detestable act.

From a moral/logical stand point I find the "a life begins at conception" argument hilarious. At conception it is no more "a life" than my skin cells are. And the whole "well you're preventing a potential human from being born" argument is fair enough, but then don't use contraception because you're doing the same thing there. If abortion is murder for that reason then we should arrest every teenage boy with a bottle of lube and a box of tissues. Lets charge every woman who has a period without at least attempting to get pregnant with manslaughter. Logically the "you're preventing a life" argument is, forgive my pun, an abortion of an argument.

Not to mention from a global stand point if we keep on irresponsibly having babies then we're all screwed for resources in 200 years. We now have less wars and when we do the casualty levels are lower. Wars, disease and famine have been great population limiters for millenia but we're slowly cutting down on all three. Of course, this is less persuasive than the majority of arguments however it is still worth thinking about.

That being said, I support abortion even as contraception. Of course, I do still believe abortion should be capped at around 16 weeks. Late term abortions should only be carried out in serious circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
1) We don’t know when life begins. But we do know that a fetus that is still in the womb, during the third trimester, can live outside of the womb if given the chance. Being pro-choice is in favor of third trimester abortions. Just because the fetus is in the womb does not give the mother the legal rights to terminate the pregnancy when the fetus could live on its own outside of the womb. That right there is killing a person. You can’t be pro-choice and anti-third trimester abortions. Because the pro-choice argument is that it is in the mother’s womb and therefore her decision.
That's not true at all. Third trimester abortions are illegal in a lot of countries. Pro-choice is the belief that women have the right to legally seek an abortion, and not only because they think a woman deserves full control of her body. Nor do pro-choice people believe they should be allowed to get rid of it whenever they like.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 06:25 PM

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1) We don’t know when life begins. But we do know that a fetus that is still in the womb, during the third trimester, can live outside of the womb if given the chance. Being pro-choice is in favor of third trimester abortions. Just because the fetus is in the womb does not give the mother the legal rights to terminate the pregnancy when the fetus could live on its own outside of the womb. That right there is killing a person. You can’t be pro-choice and anti-third trimester abortions. Because the pro-choice argument is that it is in the mother’s womb and therefore her decision.
Yes, we do. Medically life begins at birth. Always.

And ... Yes you can. The abortion limit in the UK is 24 weeks, and I fully believe this should be reduced to 18-20 weeks but in no way would support an anti-abortion policy. So of course you can, and an increasing number of people are. The way an abortion takes place after the 20 week mark is far more traumatic for the woman leading to more psychological affects and also costs more money. Although it's worth noting that in the UK less than 1% of abortions take place after 20 weeks.

Quote:
2) A woman having an abortion is legal and is considered not killing a person in our country. Then why also in our country is killing a pregnant woman a double homicide? Why is it in the case that in one law the fetus is not a person but in another law the fetus is a person?
Because the two situations you have described are entirely different. In one, a mother has made a choice about her own body and is entirely legal. In the other, a person has taken away the life of both the mother and the child against her wishes. You can't compare the two.

Quote:
3) Killing an innocent person in this country is illegal. The reason it is illegal is because you are taking away the person’s future against their will. How is that any different from terminating a fetus? If allowed to live its natural life span the fetus will grow up and have a regular human future. So if you kill a fetus you are taking away its future. The exact same future you would be taking away from a person already born. Therefore terminating a pregnancy is considered killing. And therefore should be considered illegal.
Quote:
4) An innocent human life should not be terminated just because the mother is inconvenienced by the pregnancy.
So you would have abortion made illegal, then? This would not stop abortion from taking place. It would simply push it underground and we would return to the days of back alley abortions where thousands of women died every year from infections, internal bleeding and generally botched abortions. We'd also see suicide rates increase as women would feel trapped in their situation. How is this an improved situation?

Quote:
5) I have never heard a definition of “person” that includes only born humans and excludes fetuses.
Of course there is. Every medical definition there is for a life does not include feotuses. They cannot feel pain, cannot think logical thoughts, cannot support themselves without their mother (breathing, eating, etc). I know there is some seriously dodgy research that argues feotuses can feel pain from 18 weeks but this has been proven completely false by the British Medical Association. I tried to find my notes on this but can't, so I'll look harder, but I know I have somewhere the factors that need to be present for 'life' and they are not present in a feotus.
As a doctor, your concern is always for the mother first until the baby is born. If the mother went into cardiac arrest or had a similar medical emergancy, your concern would be for the mother, not the child, always first and foremost.

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6) I have never actually heard any argument that defends why a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy if she feels she is inconvenienced by it. We have programs like adoption if she does not want the child after birth. A lot of states also have the Safe Heaven programs where all the woman has to do is take their infant to a hospital, police or fire department, state they no long want the child and walk out. That is all they have to do, no questions asked.
Carrying a baby you don't want, giving birth to a baby you don't want -- that's a traumatic experience that is just as psychologically damaging as an abortion (seeing as you seem so concerned about the psychological impacts of abortion vs. birth). It's completely unethical to force a mother to carry a baby she does not want. The reasons why a mother may wish to abort is really very lengthy.

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7) Nine months of inconvenience and birth is not a reason to terminate an innocent human life.
Is this not actually the same as point number four?

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8) I think there is a huge misconception that pro-lifers are anti-women. Which is so not true. There are organizations like http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/. (Note can be triggering) An organization made up of entirely women who had abortions who regret it and it has really negatively affected their life. It has affected their life so much that they have dedicated their life to being speaking to woman about not getting one and to make it illegal. It didn’t help their life to get an abortion and now they speak up against it. There is also http://www.feministsforlife.org/, Feminists for Life.
How many times? Making abortion illegal would not stop them from happening. And yes, abortion can have psychological concequences but the psychological concequences of having a baby may be far more for the same woman. As part of an abortion, everything is explained to the woman and she is given councelling to help her reach her own decision.

Quote:
9) A human life is a human life. Whether it is pre-birth or post-birth there is no difference. There is no difference between a nine month old fetus and a one second old baby. And just because one is in the womb and one is out of the womb makes no difference. Being pro-choice, in my eyes, is being anti- human life.
Maybe not, but that arguement is completely irrelevant seeing no doctor is going to perform an abortion on a nine month pregnancy unless continuing the pregnancy would cost the mother her life, or the baby will not survive once born. There is a big difference between a six week feotus and a new-born baby. To me the two do not even connect in my head.

Being pro-choice, in my eyes, is really bloody prehistoric, irrational, and is a death sentance for hundreds of women.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 06:30 PM

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
So you don't think that killing something that can hear and feel, although its brain is not functioning to the standard of a baby outside the womb, just because the mother doesn't want it is immoral?
Nope. If the mother doesn't want the baby for whatever reason, then chances are it's not going to have a good environment to grow up in. Naturally, one can argue that the mother can simply put the baby up for adoption and I think that is also a perfectly viable option but this is about abortion only.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
I understand that many in this debate will not consider a fetus to be human. I strongly disagree with that view, but fair enough...
I don't understand how one can debate that the fetus is not a human. It has human DNA, it's from human parents, it follows human morphology and evolution, etc... . Saying it's not a human is like saying a premature or unripened apple isn't an apple. When it's ripened, it's not magically an apple, it has apple DNA and everything else, thus, it's an apple.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
In that case, do you honestly believe it is moral to kill or have a pet put down just because it is no longer convenient to have it? Would it not be better to send this pet to a shelter so that it can have owners who will care for it?
I do support adoption also, however, there's a difference between having a pet or child versus a fetus. A fetus isn't born, it's not a person. A pet is born already and you take responsibility for taking proper care of it and nurturing it. The same goes with a child. If you can no longer handle the pet or child then that's one thing but if you are able to handle it and care for it yet for some reason cant be bothered to do so, then that's another thing. In that case, I support adoption not killing the pet or child on the spot.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
Although some may not consider fetuses people, chances are high with proper medical care, they will become people if allowed the chance.
Agreed but when it is a fetus, it's not a person and so abortion cannot apply for a person, only a fetus.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
9 months of a woman's life is such a small sacrifice to make to give a baby a chance to live a full life. And although everyone has negative experiences, I think most will agree that they still prefer life to non-existence.
If the woman doesn't want the baby or cannot support it then why should she endure 9 months of pregnancy?

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
All that aside, I do believe that if the life of the mother is at stake, for medical reasons, the fetus can be sacrificed. Also, if a woman is raped and carrying the baby to term is too traumatic, she should be allowed to abort.
Because I believe that these circumstances can warrant killing the fetus, some might call me pro-choice, but I am not. I don't believe that it should be anyone's choice to kill a living being, and before the choice is made to abort, even under these circumstances, I believe that it had better be a life-or-death situation. Killing for self-defense, although tragic, is the only way I can condone killing at all.
Fair enough.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 06:30 PM

I know there are different laws about abortions in other countries, but third term abortions are legal in America and they do happen for reasons that aren’t considered life or death. There are doctors that do perform them and it is legal here. There is no difference between a nine month old fetus and a one second old baby. There is no difference. If removed from womb the baby can live on its own and support itself without its mother. There is no reason that should be legal in my eyes.




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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 06:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
I know there are different laws about abortions in other countries, but third term abortions are legal in America and they do happen for reasons that aren’t considered life or death. There are doctors that do perform them and it is legal here. There is no difference between a nine month old fetus and a one second old baby. There is no difference. If removed from womb the baby can live on its own and support itself without its mother. There is no reason that should be legal in my eyes.
I agree that should not be legal. It is not legal in the UK.

What if the baby could not live by itself, and the condition was diagnosed at 8/9 months? I met a family in that situation who had decided to have the baby, and it died at 8 days old. But I could fully understand having an abortion in that situation, rather than having to go through a birth or a stillbirth.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 06:41 PM

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Originally Posted by her_beautiful_mistake View Post
I agree that should not be legal. It is not legal in the UK.

What if the baby could not live by itself, and the condition was diagnosed at 8/9 months? I met a family in that situation who had decided to have the baby, and it died at 8 days old. But I could fully understand having an abortion in that situation, rather than having to go through a birth or a stillbirth.
I do think there should be laws that include medical emergencies and life and death situations that would be up to the doctor to decide with the mother. But over all if there is no medical reason on why the abortion should be terminated in the third trimester I do not think it should be legal.




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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 06:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post

I do think there should be laws that include medical emergencies and life and death situations that would be up to the doctor to decide with the mother. But over all if there is no medical reason on why the abortion should be terminated in the third trimester I do not think it should be legal.
That's how it is in the UK, after 24 weeks if the pregnancy would threaten the life of the mother or the baby has a condition with which it could not survive then abortion is legal. Otherwise you can't have an abortion past 24 weeks, though in reality most doctors won't perform them past 15.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 06:46 PM

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Originally Posted by !!!YOU'RE$NUCKING$FUTZ!!! View Post
I don't understand how one can debate that the fetus is not a human. It has human DNA, it's from human parents, it follows human morphology and evolution, etc... . Saying it's not a human is like saying a premature or unripened apple isn't an apple. When it's ripened, it's not magically an apple, it has apple DNA and everything else, thus, it's an apple.
I apologize, that was a poor choice of words on my part. What I meant to say is that I disagree with the opinion that a fetus is not a person.

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Originally Posted by !!!YOU'RE$NUCKING$FUTZ!!! View Post
I do support adoption also, however, there's a difference between having a pet or child versus a fetus. A fetus isn't born, it's not a person. A pet is born already and you take responsibility for taking proper care of it and nurturing it. The same goes with a child. If you can no longer handle the pet or child then that's one thing but if you are able to handle it and care for it yet for some reason cant be bothered to do so, then that's another thing. In that case, I support adoption not killing the pet or child on the spot.
If the fetus has brain function, can see, hear, and feel then what separates it from a person? Yes it resides inside the mother, but I have heard of babies being born at 28 weeks and surviving outside the mother's womb. That is 12 weeks before birth. And as Canada has no regulation regarding late-term abortions, those babies are being killed, even though they could survive outside the womb.


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Originally Posted by !!!YOU'RE$NUCKING$FUTZ!!! View Post
If the woman doesn't want the baby or cannot support it then why should she endure 9 months of pregnancy?
Because its only 9 months. She doesn't have to terminate the pregnancy just because she doesn't want it. Generally, women make plans to have the baby adopted as soon as they find out they are pregnant and then they have therapy to help them let go of the child before it is born. So they do not feel like it is their baby, they know it is going to a family who will love and care for it. If you could give 9 months of your time and energy to help someone so they could live a full life, would you do it? Its the same thing.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 06:51 PM

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Originally Posted by her_beautiful_mistake View Post
That's how it is in the UK, after 24 weeks if the pregnancy would threaten the life of the mother or the baby has a condition with which it could not survive then abortion is legal. Otherwise you can't have an abortion past 24 weeks, though in reality most doctors won't perform them past 15.
Sadly that is just not the case in America. As long as the fetus is still in the womb, legally an abortion can be preformed at any time during the pregnacy. And there are doctors that due late term abortions. Most American pro-choicers want it to stay that way, claiming that itís still in the womanís body and therefore still her choice. Which is why it is still legal here.




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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 06:54 PM

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post

1) We donít know when life begins. But we do know that a fetus that is still in the womb, during the third trimester, can live outside of the womb if given the chance. Being pro-choice is in favor of third trimester abortions. Just because the fetus is in the womb does not give the mother the legal rights to terminate the pregnancy when the fetus could live on its own outside of the womb. That right there is killing a person. You canít be pro-choice and anti-third trimester abortions. Because the pro-choice argument is that it is in the motherís womb and therefore her decision.
Sure you can. You can be pro-choice up to a certain point, that point being when it is still legal.

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
2) A woman having an abortion is legal and is considered not killing a person in our country. Then why also in our country is killing a pregnant woman a double homicide? Why is it in the case that in one law the fetus is not a person but in another law the fetus is a person?
When someone kills a pregnant woman, they take away the woman's choice of having the fetus continue to grow. It's illegal in this sense because the woman's body and choice were breached. Since she did not get an abortion, it can be assumed she wanted the baby.

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
3) Killing an innocent person in this country is illegal. The reason it is illegal is because you are taking away the personís future against their will. How is that any different from terminating a fetus? If allowed to live its natural life span the fetus will grow up and have a regular human future. So if you kill a fetus you are taking away its future. The exact same future you would be taking away from a person already born. Therefore terminating a pregnancy is considered killing. And therefore should be considered illegal.
The motives for a murder versus an abortion are usually different. If the woman aborts due to medical complications, should she be imprisoned because she did something to save her life or to have only one death instead of two? No. Should she be imprisoned if she knew she could not support the baby (i.e. cannot currently support herself) or her parents won't support her? No because she's ensuring the fetus won't be malnurished and the baby won't grow up in an unsuitable environment.

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
4) An innocent human life should not be terminated just because the mother is inconvenienced by the pregnancy.
The pregnancy disrupts the woman's life especially towards the end of the pregnancy and so if she wants to better herself in life at the cost of an abortion, then what is wrong with that? It allows her the chance to later on when she is in a higher socioeconomic status and so forth to have the baby. Suppose the woman got raped and in the rare event, she got pregnant. Should she then, for 9 months, have to constantly live knowing that part of her rapist is growing within her and when the child is born, she'll have to raise a being that is 50% her rapist? That's bound to be awfully traumatic and if the woman does put the child up for adoption, that doesn't negate the 9 months she had of raising part of her rapist. It's unethical and amoral.

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
5) I have never heard a definition of ďpersonĒ that includes only born humans and excludes fetuses.
This is a really pathetic argument by saying if you haven't heard of such a definition, then it must not exist. That's like me saying if I've never heard of a rabbit, then rabbits must not exist.

a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons.
2.a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.

3.Sociology. an individual human being, esp. with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned bythe culture.

4.Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being.

5.the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.

6.the body of a living human being, sometimes including the clothes being worn: He had no money on his person.

7.the body in its external aspect: an attractive person to look at.

8.a character, part, or role, as in a play or story.

9.an individual of distinction or importance.

10.a person not entitled to social recognition or respect.

11.Law. a human being (natural person) or a group of human beings, a corporation, a partnership, an estate, or other legal entity (artificial person or juristic person) recognized by law as having rights and duties.

from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/person. Now 11 definitions have been provided.



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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
6) I have never actually heard any argument that defends why a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy if she feels she is inconvenienced by it. We have programs like adoption if she does not want the child after birth. A lot of states also have the Safe Heaven programs where all the woman has to do is take their infant to a hospital, police or fire department, state they no long want the child and walk out. That is all they have to do, no questions asked.
Have you ever searched for any arguments that defend such a position? There are plenty of arguments on the Internet including TH forums.

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
7) Nine months of inconvenience and birth is not a reason to terminate an innocent human life.
This is the same argument as the fourth argument you presented.

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
8) I think there is a huge misconception that pro-lifers are anti-women. Which is so not true. There are organizations like http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/. (Note can be triggering) An organization made up of entirely women who had abortions who regret it and it has really negatively affected their life. It has affected their life so much that they have dedicated their life to being speaking to woman about not getting one and to make it illegal. It didnít help their life to get an abortion and now they speak up against it. There is also http://www.feministsforlife.org/, Feminists for Life.
What is the argument here? Women abort for numerous reasons, many of which have been presented in this thread already so if they're emotional about it and want a child, that's understandable but using that as an argument is pretty weak.

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
9) A human life is a human life. Whether it is pre-birth or post-birth there is no difference. There is no difference between a nine month old fetus and a one second old baby. And just because one is in the womb and one is out of the womb makes no difference. Being pro-choice, in my eyes, is being anti- human life.
Agreed, a fetus is a human and any argument against that I think is nonsense.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 07:04 PM

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
I apologize, that was a poor choice of words on my part. What I meant to say is that I disagree with the opinion that a fetus is not a person.
Why?

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
If the fetus has brain function, can see, hear, and feel then what separates it from a person? Yes it resides inside the mother, but I have heard of babies being born at 28 weeks and surviving outside the mother's womb. That is 12 weeks before birth. And as Canada has no regulation regarding late-term abortions, those babies are being killed, even though they could survive outside the womb.
A person can interact with others, a person has duties and roles to perform, it's rational, it can solve problems, etc.... .

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
Because its only 9 months. She doesn't have to terminate the pregnancy just because she doesn't want it. Generally, women make plans to have the baby adopted as soon as they find out they are pregnant and then they have therapy to help them let go of the child before it is born. So they do not feel like it is their baby, they know it is going to a family who will love and care for it. If you could give 9 months of your time and energy to help someone so they could live a full life, would you do it? Its the same thing.
If you mean providing shelter, food and so forth for the pregnant woman, then only if I was well off to begin with, otherwise, I put myself at risk as well as the pregnant woman. Also, if I had the time to do so, then I may. If you mean raising the baby, then the same conditions would apply. In both cases, I'd need a reason other than being a nice person to devote 9 months of time, money and effort, either before, during or after the pregnancy. It's not just helping her for 9 months, it's affecting my life for 9 months and my career. I'm going to need a very large incentive to do so.
   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 07:11 PM

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Originally Posted by !!!YOU'RE$NUCKING$FUTZ!!! View Post
a human being, whether man, woman, or child: The table seats four persons.
2.a human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.

3.Sociology. an individual human being, esp. with reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns as conditioned bythe culture.

4.Philosophy. a self-conscious or rational being.

5.the actual self or individual personality of a human being: You ought not to generalize, but to consider the person you are dealing with.

6.the body of a living human being, sometimes including the clothes being worn: He had no money on his person.

7.the body in its external aspect: an attractive person to look at.

8.a character, part, or role, as in a play or story.

9.an individual of distinction or importance.

10.a person not entitled to social recognition or respect.

11.Law. a human being (natural person) or a group of human beings, a corporation, a partnership, an estate, or other legal entity (artificial person or juristic person) recognized by law as having rights and duties.

from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/person. Now 11 definitions have been provided.
1. You can have a male or female fetus.
2. You already agreed a fetus is human.
3. So people who live alone out in the woods following no distinct culture or society rules are not considered people? The uni-bomber was a person, those with anti-social personality disorders do not make relationships like other people and do not follow set societal rules, are they no longer people as well?
4. Those in comas or who are unconscious are now no longer people.
5. So if an individual personality stands to make one a person, then those with Dissociate Identity Disorder are now considered multiple people?
6. Like you already said a fetus is a human. And a fetus does have a human body and human genes.
7. Fetus has a human body again.
8. Still human, still has a human body.
9. So what if a person was walking down the street and another person felt they had no importance, does that give them the right to kill that person? A matter of importance is debatable (hence the debate ).
10. Number ten doesnít make sense. A person not entitled to respect? I donít think I understand that one.
11. Human beings do have rights, itís in our constitution.




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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 07:31 PM

To be honest, I think it depends entirely on the circumstances. On the whole I don't agree with it as it is taking a baby's life.

If a woman is pregnant due to rape and she doesn't want a reminder of that for the rest of her life, I think it is valid. I also partially think that if the child isn't going to be provided for correctly (i.e. lack of money etc) then is it fair to bring them into the world if they won't be properly treated?

However I think if a woman is pregnant out of stupidity or even mistake with a boyfriend they should be prepared for the consequences, one of which is pregnancy. In this situation, I don't believe an innocent child should be aborted.

I'm kinda torn on this, and really I think I always will be! Although I do think that the length in which is available to have an abortion (particularly in Britain) is waaaaay too long and should definately be shortened.
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 08:47 PM

[font="Century Gothic"]
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Originally Posted by annabanana. View Post
[COLOR=purple

However I think if a woman is pregnant out of stupidity or even mistake with a boyfriend they should be prepared for the consequences, one of which is pregnancy. In this situation, I don't believe an innocent child should be aborted.



What if the woman was really careful with her boyfriend? Like she was on the pill and they used condoms.

I do agree that a woman shouldn't repeatedly use abortion as birth control as in she shouldn't deliberately have sex without protection because she thinks 'if I get pregnant I'll just have an abortio'

But accidents do happen.


   
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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 09:09 PM

I am completley pro life. If you go out and have sex its YOUR responsibility.
I don't think its fair that out back down just because your scared or not ready, you should deal with the consequences instead of taking the "easy way out".
If that was the case then you shouldn't of been having sex at all. The only way to be sure 100% you don't get pregnant is to be abstinent.
It's an innocent child that your killing. They could have their whole future ahead of them.
And if you CANNOT raise and support them, their is adoption. There is a chance at them having a better life, in which you could not give to them.

I understand some of you think there are times when it's okay, but do you know that ONLY 3% of ALL abortions are actually from rape or incest? Just a bit of info.





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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 09:21 PM

I think another particularly big issue with abortion right now, is that under ObamaCare abortion will be covered. But seeing as everyone is taxed to pay for public health care, people are being taxed for something they are so strongly against. This will also force Catholic and other religiously affiliated hospitals to have to conduct this procedure. If abortion is going to be legal, it should be on your own dime. I donít want my hard earned dollars going to pay for your late term abortion just because you donít want to give birth. I donít want to work eight hours a day to help you pay to kill your baby.
So at a lot of protest rallies, this is a big issue. That not only is it legal in America, but it is soon about to become apart of the universal health care program, under which everyone is taxed for, and they have no choice to opt out of it.




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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 09:21 PM

I'm a bit of both, like Angelina said its your choice to have sex, but then on the other hand, sometimes, its really NOT your choice, like if you get raped or something, not your choice, therefore you might not want the child.



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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 10:02 PM

I'm not for late term abortions, and I do agree with a 20 week limit. But it would be better if pro-lifers were fighting against late term abortion, and not to just make abortion illegal. That's not going to happen, everyone knows that if abortions are illegal they will still happen, they will just be back alley and unsafe.

Now here's my question, to all you pro-lifers, is there any time when abortion is okay, in your opinion. to the pro-choicers, should abortion be used as a form of birth control? Or should we educate the masses and use it only as a last resort.


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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 10:10 PM

Pro-choice only as a last resort. It's better than a baby coming into this world abused and neglected. Women deserve the right to lead a normal life and not struggle to keep themselves and a baby healthy if they can barely take care of themselves. Bringing a baby into the world that no one wants is almost like torchering a baby. Even if mothers can't take care of their child, they don't always put them up for adoption and that just causes more problems. If a baby is old enough in the womb though and isn't wanted, they should be put up for adoption instead of being aborted.


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Re: Another Pro-Life/ Pro-Choice Debate - February 21st 2010, 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cas* View Post
I'm not for late term abortions, and I do agree with a 20 week limit. But it would be better if pro-lifers were fighting against late term abortion, and not to just make abortion illegal. That's not going to happen, everyone knows that if abortions are illegal they will still happen, they will just be back alley and unsafe.

Now here's my question, to all you pro-lifers, is there any time when abortion is okay, in your opinion. to the pro-choicers, should abortion be used as a form of birth control? Or should we educate the masses and use it only as a last resort.
Theres no time in which abortion is okay with me. I can understand getting raped and such, but like i stated above ONLY 3% of abortions are because of rape/incest. I don't think its ever okay to kill an innocent baby.




   
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