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A 'cloning' thread. - February 24th 2010, 03:15 PM

I'm just curious because of the Prostitution thread that really caught my attention. Cloning is another issue of determining human and moral rights

Imagine finding the perfect genetics to get beautiful baby that has a perfect immune system! You would never have to worry about certain diseases or sicknesses if genes were able to be remodified. I'm not really an expert in this area, so I don't know if the technology is adequate, faulty, too expensive ,etc.

How do people feel about human and moral rights regarding cloning?
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - February 24th 2010, 05:04 PM

I would just be worried about all the people who would have to suffer while they try to ''perfect'' it? :/

I don't honestly know a whole lot about the subject though.. but that sheep didn't exactly have a fun life.
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - February 24th 2010, 05:05 PM

You should watch Gattaca, it's a movie about genetic therapy and discrimination about it. You should also read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley which treats with social classes based on peoples genetics.

I actually wrote an essay about human cloning from an ethical point of view for a biotechnology essay competition. The whole topic is pretty sketchy but needs to be dealt with as our technology advances.

My question to you is, are you talking about cloning or genetic engineering/testing. Cloning would be taking an already existing organism and making an exact copy of it. Genetic engineering + testing would be looking at the zygote and determining whether or not it has certain genes that cause diseases like down syndrome and such.

Genetic testing is already under way, you can actually chose to have your foetus tested for the big genetic diseases. I'm pretty sure that they do genetic screenings when older mothers try to have kids because the risk of genetic defects increases. Personally if I ever have kids I will get them tested, I just don't really want to bring to the world someone with big mental/physical impairments when it could have been prevented. But I really don't want to go into the whole abortion thing.

What I think about cloning? I think human cloning, as in cloning a complete person is wrong. I don't want someone else to be exactly like me. I mean they won't have had the same experiences but even just physically identical is weird enough. Talk about an identity crisis. I am definitely for cloning organs and other parts of the body though. If a doctor could clone your organs there would be no organ shortage and the person receiving the transplant wouldn't be sentenced to a life of immunosuppressants or have to worry about organ rejection.
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - February 24th 2010, 05:08 PM

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Originally Posted by Nicola View Post
I would just be worried about all the people who would have to suffer while they try to ''perfect'' it? :/

I don't honestly know a whole lot about the subject though.. but that sheep didn't exactly have a fun life.
Dolly? Yea, there are still major flaws with cloning whole organisms such as premature aging.. But really I don't think we should be cloning humans.

One thing I talked about in my essay was having a clone of yourself as an organ donor? Is that right? In my opinion no, your walking, talking, living, organ donor has the right to live as well. You cannot consider yourself a superior being because you aren't the clone.

Oh bioethics, how thrilling.
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - February 25th 2010, 02:59 AM

If it actually works it seems worth the risk.


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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - February 25th 2010, 03:59 AM

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Originally Posted by Trickmatic View Post
I'm just curious because of the Prostitution thread that really caught my attention. Cloning is another issue of determining human and moral rights

Imagine finding the perfect genetics to get beautiful baby that has a perfect immune system! You would never have to worry about certain diseases or sicknesses if genes were able to be remodified. I'm not really an expert in this area, so I don't know if the technology is adequate, faulty, too expensive ,etc.

How do people feel about human and moral rights regarding cloning?
You cant be born with a "perfect immune system" because immunity is built upon exposure to various pathogens. Sure some of it may be transferred from parents to child but it won't be perfect because that implies resistance to every pathogen, even ones the child has never encountered. Cloning cannot do this because you need to somehow modify the parent then clone, otherwise this idea will not occur.

For this reason, I'm not sure if you're talking about cloning or genetic engineering because you seem to be talking about genetic engineering as though it were cloning, then also talking about cloning.

The technology for genetic engineering is there, in full use but it needs improvements, especially for detecting other genetic disorders and preventing them. For cloning, the technology is debatable if it's there. Molly the Sheep is a classic example but a better one is Rainbow and CC. Rainbow was a cat and CC was the carbon copy. Genetically they were identical but physically, they were clearly different and CC had more health problems. So we can clone but the clones aren't that healthy and don't live very long, so it's debatable if the technology is effective or not. Some of the issues simply are that parts of the host (animal being cloned) don't actually get cloned, as odd as that may sound because it requires "resetting" parts of the cell, such as cloning mitochondrial DNA. There are other cloning methods though, although each has their own problems in that the clone typically doesn't fair that well.

I'm all for cloning organs as this would benefit surgeries whereby organ transplants are needed in humans and non-human animals (if we have the technology, why not use it for them also?), as well as for research for pharmacology, toxicology, pathology, etc... . Cloning an individual person always raises one very big concern to me and that is the issue of identity theft because the person, with the help of genetic engineering, could look exactly like its host. From the results of cloning, it's shown the behaviors of the clone are usually completely different, such as CC and Rainbow, whereby Rainbow was nice and cuddly but CC was mean, withdrawn and aggressive.
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - February 25th 2010, 04:39 AM

Organs and such? Yes

Full grown people? HELL to the no.


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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - February 25th 2010, 02:46 PM

I'm on the fence with this one. I can see the practical uses for cloning, like organ replacements. The problem I have with it is... okay, this will probably sound lame, but has anyone watched the movie "The Island" with Ewen McGregor? In a futuristic society, the wealthy can pay to have themselves cloned. The clones then live isolated from society and are killed when their organs are needed. Some wealthy women even pay to have their clones go through their pregnancy and labour, then take the baby for themselves.

The clones of course have no idea that they are slowly being killed off or that there is any world outside of where they live.

This movie really turned me off the idea of cloning. If it is possible to clone organs without a living host body, then I'm okay with it. If not, then I find it very disturbing.
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - February 25th 2010, 02:56 PM

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I'm on the fence with this one. I can see the practical uses for cloning, like organ replacements. The problem I have with it is... okay, this will probably sound lame, but has anyone watched the movie "The Island" with Ewen McGregor? In a futuristic society, the wealthy can pay to have themselves cloned. The clones then live isolated from society and are killed when their organs are needed. Some wealthy women even pay to have their clones go through their pregnancy and labour, then take the baby for themselves.

The clones of course have no idea that they are slowly being killed off or that there is any world outside of where they live.

This movie really turned me off the idea of cloning. If it is possible to clone organs without a living host body, then I'm okay with it. If not, then I find it very disturbing.
Oh that movie totally did the same for me.
I find the idea of cloning fascinating. An exact replica of a human being would be an amazing thing to see, but my conscience is screaming at the idea. Life should be different for every person and should be relatively naturally led.
This reminds of genetically engineered babies. Creepy.
Anyways, if cloning was to be used solely for the good of people's health then I'm all for it, but if it is perfected, I doubt very much that that will happen.


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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - February 25th 2010, 03:44 PM

Well I don't disagree with cloning but if they had the technology to make perfect babies then wouldn't it all get a bit boring? Like there'd be no diversity anymore because people would pay money so their baby wouldn't die so a lot of babies would look very similar.


   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - February 25th 2010, 03:47 PM

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Originally Posted by PhoenixAlive View Post
I'm on the fence with this one. I can see the practical uses for cloning, like organ replacements. The problem I have with it is... okay, this will probably sound lame, but has anyone watched the movie "The Island" with Ewen McGregor? In a futuristic society, the wealthy can pay to have themselves cloned. The clones then live isolated from society and are killed when their organs are needed. Some wealthy women even pay to have their clones go through their pregnancy and labour, then take the baby for themselves.

The clones of course have no idea that they are slowly being killed off or that there is any world outside of where they live.

This movie really turned me off the idea of cloning. If it is possible to clone organs without a living host body, then I'm okay with it. If not, then I find it very disturbing.
I really liked The Island. It's scary because I can actually see that happening in the future.

I guess if clones were used like they were in that film it'd be a bit hard for me to agree with it because they are essentially human beings even though they haven't been created the natural way. Especially Ewan McGregor's character because he developed a personality of his own and had curiosity.


   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 9th 2010, 03:27 AM

the main problem, aside from the scientific faults with the procedure for complex organisms, is the fact that anytime people in general hear the word "cloning" they immediately have a 'yuk' reaction to it. this is simply because it is something new and unknown and is the general human reaction to something that we don't know or understand. this generalized reaction holds true for the idea of cloning, even when most people don't understand the process behind it. this feeling is further promoted by movies and novels about cloning where it is portrayed as an atrocity, but this is mainly caused by the people who are in charge and controlling the situation. Take for example Brave New World. it is the government that is the real root of the problems. cloning is the most obvious new thing in that novel so it is viewed as a bad thing. while the novel may have it's main plot focused on cloning, the origin of the evil portrayed in the novel is the strict government regulations, not the actual science of cloning.

in closing, just for the record, i am not for human cloning but simply pointing out that the general media of movies and books has incorporated itself into the widely accepted view of this scientific conundrum and we should do our best to base decisions solely on facts and not on media fueled prejudices.
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 9th 2010, 04:37 AM

No no no no no. I can't stand the idea of cloning.

I just don't feel right about going against science. I may not have the answers to why we were created how we were, but I feel that it was for a reason. We may have advanced science and technology that allows cloning to be possible, but I don't feel it is our place to take on the role of God or science, for that matter. There is a reason behind the way things work the way they do, and I feel that interfering with this will only bring us disaster. It is not our place whatsoever.

Humans were not meant to be perfect. I can't say why this is, but I can say that I am positive this is the case, somehow someway. I don't feel comfortable at all with the idea of cloning.





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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 9th 2010, 05:01 AM

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No no no no no. I can't stand the idea of cloning.

I just don't feel right about going against science. I may not have the answers to why we were created how we were, but I feel that it was for a reason. We may have advanced science and technology that allows cloning to be possible, but I don't feel it is our place to take on the role of God or science, for that matter. There is a reason behind the way things work the way they do, and I feel that interfering with this will only bring us disaster. It is not our place whatsoever.

Humans were not meant to be perfect. I can't say why this is, but I can say that I am positive this is the case, somehow someway. I don't feel comfortable at all with the idea of cloning.
I'll respect your notion that you believe humans were made for a purpose and all that but how does this go against science? Science is the one that's making the cloning happen so... how is it going against itself? Humans are the ones who are making science happen so we are taking the role of it otherwise it wouldn't occur, at least not in such sophisticated ways. So how can we not take the place of something we've essentially created and constantly use and furthermore, how does this thing we've created (science) go against itself in further pursuing itself? This really makes no sense.

Lastly, why do you think it'll bring disaster?
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 9th 2010, 05:10 AM

I am for therapy cloning, as in new organs, tissues, cells for the injured. I am also for reproductive cloning, as in making new people, we could easily make use of this in anything from our labor sector, to our armed forces. We could have clones do the dangerous work, like diffusing explosives, clearing buildings, and be the first ones into a hostile zone.


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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 9th 2010, 05:15 AM

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I'll respect your notion that you believe humans were made for a purpose and all that but how does this go against science? Science is the one that's making the cloning happen so... how is it going against itself? Humans are the ones who are making science happen so we are taking the role of it otherwise it wouldn't occur, at least not in such sophisticated ways. So how can we not take the place of something we've essentially created and constantly use and furthermore, how does this thing we've created (science) go against itself in further pursuing itself? This really makes no sense.

Lastly, why do you think it'll bring disaster?
Scientists claim that before humans existed, science formed space and all we know that surrounds us. I don't agree with this theory, but I do think that science existed without humans. But assuming that you are not Christian, I'll pretend for a moment that I do believe this theory.

In order for the world to have been created, according to scientists, science had to exist. Science existed long before humans came along. Human existence does not effect the existence of science, so I am a bit confused as to what you are trying to say in your post. Science created itself. In my opinion, if it is human created then it is not true nature, or science.

Maybe I should rephrase; if we participate in cloning, we are going against human nature. I am a firm believer that things always happen they way that they should. We as humans need to learn our places. We are not creators, and it is not our job to interfere with the way that nature works. If we were to create new people, we would be "playing God." That is not our job. If it was science, or God's, intention for us to clone humans, there would be no need for sexual reproduction.

There is nothing wrong with the way we bring other humans into existence. So why change it? Humans try to have too much power over the world, instead of letting things work they way that they were intended. This world was built this way for a reason, and instead of constantly looking for improvements, I think that we need to accept this.

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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 9th 2010, 08:42 PM

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I am for therapy cloning, as in new organs, tissues, cells for the injured. I am also for reproductive cloning, as in making new people, we could easily make use of this in anything from our labor sector, to our armed forces. We could have clones do the dangerous work, like diffusing explosives, clearing buildings, and be the first ones into a hostile zone.
I agree with you on the therapeutic cloning applications such as growing replacement organs and tissues. However, the reproductive cloning aspect I have to disagree with you completely. The concept of creating a person for a single purpose such as to be a labor worker or military jobs is completely unethical. A clone is still a person, the only difference is that it has an identical genome as an existing or previously existing person. He/she is still a human. Creating someone for the express purpose of, say, defusing a bomb will go completely against that persons autonomy. If they were given a choice, that might be different but this is not the situation you described. It is completely unethical to intentionally create a human for a purpose in which they have no say as to how their life will be spent.
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 9th 2010, 09:31 PM

I wonder what causes a body to be conscious though. Is it a chemical reaction that they could recreate?


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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 9th 2010, 09:46 PM

Despite what anyone says about it being immoral and everything, there are already plenty of 'clones' around and there always will be.

Aside from that, I don't really agree with the main concept of cloning, or what everyone seems to think of it as. I don't think we should have clones walking around the streets as this could possibly destroy biodiversity, which isn't good.

On the other hand, if someone wants to clone an organ for me I'm all for it, there would be nothing wrong with it, and it could save my life, so why not?
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 9th 2010, 10:28 PM

Phin, as of now there is no way to transfer a persons conciousness to another location. If that could be accomplished then maybe human cloning would have useful applications. Of course, then there would be a whole other issue, such as who decides who gets cloned and have their mind live on. it is an interesting line of thought though.

Pi, it is true that there are clones today. they are identical twins, but the difference between these clones and the clones that we are discussing is that we are taking a pre-existing person and creating an exact physical duplicate of them. instead of something that happens through a natural course and isn't planned, we are talking about something that is artificially created. i also agree with you that we don't have any need for human cloning. the only way that it might even be possibly feasible is if the process becomes completely safe and for the situations/reasons that i stated above to Phin.
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 9th 2010, 10:59 PM

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Pi, it is true that there are clones today. they are identical twins, but the difference between these clones and the clones that we are discussing is that we are taking a pre-existing person and creating an exact physical duplicate of them. instead of something that happens through a natural course and isn't planned, we are talking about something that is artificially created. i also agree with you that we don't have any need for human cloning. the only way that it might even be possibly feasible is if the process becomes completely safe and for the situations/reasons that i stated above to Phin.
I know the thread is mainly concentrating on making clones of people, I just like making sure people realise that there are clones actually around, and it's not just identical twins, various plants are clones of themselves, things that reproduce asexually, various microorganisms etc etc...
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 9th 2010, 11:25 PM

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We're not creators; we're the creation.
This. I completely agree with Amanda here, because the way humans are brought into this world works just fine, why do we have to have an alternate way? Things are the way that they are for a reason. And that's my opinion on this.


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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 9th 2010, 11:29 PM

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This. I completely agree with Amanda here, because the way humans are brought into this world works just fine, why do we have to have an alternate way? Things are the way that they are for a reason. And that's my opinion on this.
But there are several ways that we come into the earth, yes they all end with being born, and include and egg being fertilised in different ways and conditions, and at the moment cloning isn't really much different to some ways of fertilising an egg...
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 10th 2010, 04:40 AM

Although I don't know very much about cloning, just what I learned in my Paleontology class about asexual reproduction, which is basically a cell making a copy of itself, I am against cloning. I don't like the idea of making duplicates of people, not at all. Organs, maybe. People, no.


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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 10th 2010, 05:28 AM

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Phin, as of now there is no way to transfer a persons conciousness to another location. If that could be accomplished then maybe human cloning would have useful applications. Of course, then there would be a whole other issue, such as who decides who gets cloned and have their mind live on. it is an interesting line of thought though.
Ah, but what of creation of entirely new consciouses?
There really would be no benefit, I agree, unless full body transplants were possible (I've looked at the science of it, its intriguing)... except if they were NOT conscious as guinnae pigs for experimentation such as cancer research, etc. That could prove much more effective than mice.


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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 10th 2010, 06:00 AM

Dude, Identity theft, it would happen guaranteed.


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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 10th 2010, 04:14 PM

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Originally Posted by Cas* View Post
Although I don't know very much about cloning, just what I learned in my Paleontology class about asexual reproduction, which is basically a cell making a copy of itself, I am against cloning. I don't like the idea of making duplicates of people, not at all. Organs, maybe. People, no.
it is true that cells make "copies" of themselves through asexual reproduction. however, even this has some degree of genetic variation. while they don't have crossing over like in sexual reproduction, they still have variation to a degree so it's not an exact genetic copy of the cell.

i agree with you Gixxer that cloning humans would be a bad idea and yes identity theft would happen, guarenteed.

Pi, there is a difference between cloning as it is right now and regular fertilization. each time a cell divides, it changes, even if it's only a small change. each human has around 150 new mutations in their genome, so genetic variation is ensured. cloning would put an end to this and make it so that there are only exact duplicates of a cell or organism. however, i agree that cloning of organs, if it can be perfected, would be a very usefull application.
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 10th 2010, 07:44 PM

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Originally Posted by NightOfNyx View Post

Scientists claim that before humans existed, science formed space and all we know that surrounds us. I don't agree with this theory, but I do think that science existed without humans. But assuming that you are not Christian, I'll pretend for a moment that I do believe this theory.

In order for the world to have been created, according to scientists, science had to exist. Science existed long before humans came along. Human existence does not effect the existence of science, so I am a bit confused as to what you are trying to say in your post. Science created itself. In my opinion, if it is human created then it is not true nature, or science.


Science cannot create or destroy anything, it's not possible. Science is simply a paradigm of how to investigate something, it's a tool and it can only do something if someone uses it. Any scientist who claims science made something without the intervention of humans is full of shit. There are scientific theories but even these don't create anything. Do you have the sources for which you claim these scientists said science made the world before humans existed because I think you're getting it wrong?

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Originally Posted by NightOfNyx View Post
That is not our job. If it was science, or God's, intention for us to clone humans, there would be no need for sexual reproduction.


This seems so similar to Lamarkian biology and philosophy, which has been shown at least 50 or 80 years ago, if not more to be false. That statement you're making... cloning is something we developed and if humans just go with the flow of things or follow human nature, we'd gradually learn to do various new things and learn about those new things. By the statement you're making, we should then magically change our physiology and anatomy because of those new things. For example, we developed technology whereby we can move the cursor with our eyes. Since you think that if we were meant to clone we wouldn't use sexual reproduction, then if we followed human nature which led us to this eye tracking technology, we would have no use for our hands. I cant take it seriously because it's nonsense to claim something like that.

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Originally Posted by NightOfNyx View Post
There is nothing wrong with the way we bring other humans into existence. So why change it? Humans try to have too much power over the world, instead of letting things work they way that they were intended. This world was built this way for a reason, and instead of constantly looking for improvements, I think that we need to accept this.


So you think we should stop everything in medicine, surgery, computers, automobiles, etc... and just live essentially like cavepeople? One thing that is for certain is in the natural world, organisms either evolve or do something that betters themselves, hence, they get more power over others. It's natural so unless you want to resort to being cavepeople, then it's natural for us, as organisms to want to continuously better ourselves.

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Originally Posted by NightOfNyx View Post
We're not creators; we're the creation.
We're both. We are the creation and through sexual reproduction, we're creators.
   
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Re: A 'cloning' thread. - March 10th 2010, 08:20 PM

Wow. I didn't think this thread would last that long xD

Well, contrary to what in the first post about having a 'perfect immune system', which is totally false and I don't know why I wrote that. Thanks for pointing that out everyone. Genetic engineering is also way different than cloning, and is something that I find useful. This of course gets into another argument as to say debates on genetically modified foods, which I personally would want to avoid.

My personal belief is that cloning of humans should not use it in order to reproduce. Organs would be fine in my eyes in case of any health epidemics. We should use science to enhance our life span and cloning organs does that.

Cloning humans however - there are too many problems that would arise in my mind. Self identity would be lost if you could easily replicate yourself your own likeness. As much as we like to see ourselves advance technologically, the loss of meaning about ourselves is too great. There are clones of other living organisms, but they don't have the sense of identity like humans do (as far as I know).
   
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