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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 02:53 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/...ex.html?hpt=T1

Wooo America joins the rest of the world!


Often I lie wide awake, thinking of things I could make.
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I am so scared of what will kill me in the end, for I am not prepared.
I hope I will get the chance to be someone, to be human.





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  (#2 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 02:56 AM

Not sure if this is good for us though at this point in time.


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  (#3 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 02:59 AM

A sad day. And not because I necessarily oppose all parts of the bill, but because of how rushed through it was. Who even knows what's in it? Nancy Pelosi herself said we had to pass the bill to find out what was in it. I mean... Really?

And the financial burden this will cause while we're already in a recession?

It's just plain idiotic to pass it and pretty much purely a political move for Obama at this point.


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  (#4 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 02:59 AM

Yes. Ignore the will of the American people, and trample all over the Constitution.

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  (#5 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:00 AM

I'm not lieing you guys, I'm kind of scared now. I don't know how our lives are going to turn out in the future.


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  (#6 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:02 AM

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Originally Posted by TheNumber42 View Post
And the financial burden this will cause while we're already in a recession?

It's just plain idiotic to pass it and pretty much purely a political move for Obama at this point.
I agree. I'm really disappointed that it was passed.


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  (#7 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:13 AM

Just another step complete of the Globalist's agenda.
   
  (#8 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:15 AM

Yay for passing the bill.
   
  (#9 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:17 AM

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Just another step complete of the Globalist's agenda.
...Explain?


Often I lie wide awake, thinking of things I could make.
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I am so scared of what will kill me in the end, for I am not prepared.
I hope I will get the chance to be someone, to be human.





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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:19 AM

Well that's just great. I don't think we needed this pushed on us at this point in time, the American people did not want this passed. Rushing it through and passing it despite the fact that much of the US was saying NO is ridiculous.


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  (#11 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:22 AM

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Originally Posted by TheNumber42 View Post
And the financial burden this will cause while we're already in a recession?
The British passed their health care reform right after WWII, when their economy was in shambles and they had almost no money and had just begun rebuilding. It actually stimulated their economy quite a bit.

That being said, I doubt that the American one is being done the same way. And I'm sure there's going to be problems with it, just because it was so rushed and almost seems like a gimmick.
We'll see what happens though.


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  (#12 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:26 AM

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Originally Posted by Devious Disaster View Post
Well that's just great. I don't think we needed this pushed on us at this point in time, the American people did not want this passed. Rushing it through and passing it despite the fact that much of the US was saying NO is ridiculous.
A lot of people didn't want it passed, true, but even more did. And thus, democracy flows.


Often I lie wide awake, thinking of things I could make.
But I donít seem to have the parts to build them.
I am so scared of what will kill me in the end, for I am not prepared.
I hope I will get the chance to be someone, to be human.





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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:28 AM

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Originally Posted by TigerTank77 View Post
...Explain?

He means Global martial law World Government Ect.


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  (#14 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:30 AM

Damn Alex Jones hit this one on the nail like the truth about 9.11


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  (#15 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ares View Post



He means Global martial law World Government Ect.
*facepalm* Probably should have been able to pick up on that. God I'm tired.


Often I lie wide awake, thinking of things I could make.
But I donít seem to have the parts to build them.
I am so scared of what will kill me in the end, for I am not prepared.
I hope I will get the chance to be someone, to be human.





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  (#16 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 04:39 AM

Well, tell me this...

do you guys WANT to be able to have affordable insurance? Do you WANT to get rid of "pre-existing conditions"? Do you WANT everyone to be insured? If your answer to these questions is 'yes', then this is a good thing!


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  (#17 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 04:46 AM

HOORAY! Now the internet can finally move on to spewing bile about the next major issue, whatever that turns out to be.

Time to overhaul the education system, I guess!

Afterthought: I'm eager to see what all those who accuse Obama of being a lame-duck president bringing no real change have to say now. Love healthcare reform or hate it, you can't deny that what Obama's achieved is absolutely monumental.


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  (#18 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 06:09 AM

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A lot of people didn't want it passed, true, but even more did. And thus, democracy flows.
I disagree, based on every poll that I've seen on the issue. A majority of Americans opposed the bill as it is, although honestly I think alot of them are opposed to how it was passed. After hearing how some of the votes were "obtained" from wavering representatives (threatening to withhold support/funding for elections, etc.), I am honestly really beginning to lose faith in our federal government.

This type of sweeping legislation shouldn't be passed in a narrow vote along party lines with bought votes. Even Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security had some bipartisan support and weren't passed with such legal maneuvering. The financial repercussions of this bill will haunt our generation in my opinion, a classic example of our government doing what it wants now rather than looking towards the future.
   
  (#19 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 06:21 AM

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I disagree, based on every poll that I've seen on the issue. A majority of Americans opposed the bill as it is, although honestly I think alot of them are opposed to how it was passed. After hearing how some of the votes were "obtained" from wavering representatives (threatening to withhold support/funding for elections, etc.), I am honestly really beginning to lose faith in our federal government.

This type of sweeping legislation shouldn't be passed in a narrow vote along party lines with bought votes. Even Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security had some bipartisan support and weren't passed with such legal maneuvering. The financial repercussions of this bill will haunt our generation in my opinion, a classic example of our government doing what it wants now rather than looking towards the future.
Looking toward the future is exactly what it aims to do. Whatever the future of the new health care system, the fact remains that the old system was unsustainable. And while the republican party was happy to block this bill at every turn, they weren't offering up a single alternative. I think most people would have preferred to see a bipartisan effort, myself included, but the republicans simply made that impossible. Something needed to be done, and the republicans refused to do anything, so it fell to the democratic party to find the best solution it could: this bill.


The atoms that make up you and me were born in the hearts of suns many times greater than ours, and in time our atoms will once again reside amongst the stars. Life is but an idle dalliance of the cosmos, frail, and soon forgotten. We have been set adrift in an ocean whose tides we are only beginning to comprehend and with that maturity has come the realization that we are, at least for now, alone. In that loneliness, it falls to us to shine as brightly as the stars from which we came.
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  (#20 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 07:27 AM

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Looking toward the future is exactly what it aims to do. Whatever the future of the new health care system, the fact remains that the old system was unsustainable. And while the republican party was happy to block this bill at every turn, they weren't offering up a single alternative. I think most people would have preferred to see a bipartisan effort, myself included, but the republicans simply made that impossible. Something needed to be done, and the republicans refused to do anything, so it fell to the democratic party to find the best solution it could: this bill.
Perhaps in some ways it looked towards the future, but with the debt it will rack up for our generation to pay I don't think it is looking to the future enough. Look at what Social Security has become. By the time I retire, we may not be able to sustain the system anymore and that is a system I fully support.

And you are incorrect about Republican alternatives not being offered. The alternatives were certainly not as sweeping, and I think rightly so. They proposed a more gradual, calculated approach beginning with allowing purchasing insurance across state lines, limiting malpractice compensation awards (i.e. not paying out $20 million because a scar doesn't heal right), etc.. The liberals in Congress didn't like those ideas though, so they got ignored.

I also agree that something needed to be done, but I for one think that the Democrats, or specifically the liberal Democrats, in Congress used scare tactics to make this much more of an issue than it is. The fact is, if "something needed to be done now" they picked the wrong way to do it as these changes won't really be seen for years. The fact is that a person is usually smart but people are dumb, panicky animals (thank you, Men in Black). That is all without discussing the way that votes were acquired that I mentioned (i.e. threatening moderate/conservative Democrats), which honestly scares me. I don't like what our government is turning into, and I think a lot of Americans agree with me and it will show in elections this November. I look for the Democratic majority in Congress to decrease if not disappear following this midterm election.

Above all, I find it funny that those who call themselves "liberal" are expanding government and taking away liberties (i.e. medical insurance as a requirement and not an option).

I'll add that I HAVE read through the bill, unlike most people.
   
  (#21 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 09:52 AM

I'm a firm believer that when it comes to government, not everyone is going to be satisfied. Because I know nothing about health care reforms, I'm neutral on the topic and not sure what it will do and won't do for the economy. But I know that I haven't had health care since I was 17 years old. My dad is poor for various reasons, and he can't afford health care. Neither can I because I'm a full-time student. I'm not the kind of person to go to doctors, but it would be nice to have check ups and maybe even get a prescription (the only times I've been really sick was recently when I had pink eye, and a year or so ago when I had a minor case of e. coli). But shit happens, and I don't think that my dad or even myself should be denied health care just because we don't have insurance. I kinda like the idea even though I know nothing about it. I do think that this health care thing has been over-hyped and there's a lot of negativity towards this...for what reasons is beyond me (because I know nothing about politics or health care for that matter), but as I said...I think that any decision the government makes is going to upset a large group of people. I don't think that pointing the finger at Obama is the right way to handle things. If Obama proposes an idea, the government either backs him up, or overrides him. Point the finger at government, not just one individual...that's just what I'm thinking.
   
  (#22 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 01:08 PM

Good job U.S. It took you long enough.
   
  (#23 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 01:33 PM

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Originally Posted by cwkguy View Post
Well, tell me this...

do you guys WANT to be able to have affordable insurance? Do you WANT to get rid of "pre-existing conditions"? Do you WANT everyone to be insured? If your answer to these questions is 'yes', then this is a good thing!
My answer is 'no. Not if this is the way to get that' because it is going to increase our already monumental debt. This bill was a shortsighted, impulsive political maneuver engineered and manipulated by Obama so he could say he was actually doing things. It's not the monumental step forward everyone is making it out to be. It's going to be a costly bureaucratic mess.

And not to mention that only a few people even know what was in the bill. We were told to pass the bill so we could find out what's in it. What does that sound like? Russian roulette? Put the gun to your head and pull the trigger to see if it's empty or not.

This was just so incredibly stupid and rushed and I think we'll be paying the price for a long, long time to come.


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  (#24 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 02:01 PM

Ewww. This is going to suck. =\


   
  (#25 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 02:37 PM

You have no idea how sad this makes me. Is this a change? Yes. Is it a good change? No. Not only does this go against my belief of being prolife, but now I will be fincially supporting it against my will? People who pay taxes now, for the most part, have health care already. The only people this will be an advantage to is those who do not pay taxes. So now, not only am I paying for myself, I am paying for them as well. And they are paying for nothing.
Why has everyone forgotten that we already have a health care program run by the government? It's called Medicare and it's a complete failure. The govement can't even fix what they created so they just turn their back and try something else? How does that make any sense? Forcing the amercian people to pay for something they don't want, and that the majority already have.
Yes this country needs healh care reform, they should have started with Medicare, their first mess and fixed that. This was not the way this should have happened. And the fact this passed when America didn't want it just signed Obama's fate of a one term presidency.




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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:40 PM

I love how people are judging so harshly when he haven't even experienced the reform yet. Give it a chance. The lot of you are scared because of the rushedness, and yet you're all so eager to judge. I am very happy that the bill passed and can't wait to see what will happen.
   
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:49 PM

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I love how people are judging so harshly when he haven't even experienced the reform yet. Give it a chance. The lot of you are scared because of the rushedness, and yet you're all so eager to judge. I am very happy that the bill passed and can't wait to see what will happen.
We don't pass bills to "give it a chance." We pass them because we NEED them, we WANT them, and it WORKS.
   
  (#28 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 03:54 PM

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I love how people are judging so harshly when he haven't even experienced the reform yet. Give it a chance. The lot of you are scared because of the rushedness, and yet you're all so eager to judge. I am very happy that the bill passed and can't wait to see what will happen.
You don't just rush into something this sweeping and costly to "give it a try." This is the kind of thing that needs to be thought out and discussed before it is implemented, not rushed through by a narrow vote along partisan lines. We're not talking about some little law here, we are talking about a program that will change everything about healthcare in this country and cost billions of dollars. Maybe it will somehow work out, but I don't see that happening. And when it does fail, who is going to get stuck with the bills and the after-effects? Me? My children? My grandchildren?

This was not a good move.


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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 04:03 PM

Yeah, in your opinion. This is not a fact so please do not state your opinion as so.
   
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 04:07 PM

I really need this explaining to me. Why is everyone so angry and upset about this?

Being from the UK where we have the NHS so I don't know what the problem is with public healthcare.

You can still have private healthcare if you want it but people who can't afford it get healthcare too.

I really need the downsides explaining too me because I have seen the NHS and how it works and helps people, ok it isn't perfect but everyone gets treated and no one is left out because they don't have insurance
   
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 04:13 PM

This is what your country needs. Certain people shouldnt be refused healthcare because of them been poor and unable to get insurance. Pure idiotic.
I doubt people would disagree if it was them who were poor and unable to get healthcare.


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  (#32 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 04:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Razzmatazz Rach View Post
I really need this explaining to me. Why is everyone so angry and upset about this?

Being from the UK where we have the NHS so I don't know what the problem is with public healthcare.

You can still have private healthcare if you want it but people who can't afford it get healthcare too.

I really need the downsides explaining too me because I have seen the NHS and how it works and helps people, ok it isn't perfect but everyone gets treated and no one is left out because they don't have insurance
yeah can someone explain why everyones so angry about it?


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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 04:53 PM

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yeah can someone explain why everyones so angry about it?
Americans dont believe in Government choices on who lives and who should die.


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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 05:05 PM

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Americans dont believe in Government choices on who lives and who should die.
But isn't it like that now, if you can afford insurance then you can get treated and live.....

Also other places like the UK and Canada have a similar system and it works there, the government doesn't choose who lives and dies here so I don't get that point. Can you explain it more?

I don't mean for any of this to sound rude or stupid, I just don't understand much about this being from the UK. The only way I know bits about the reform from the internet, posts on here and The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. It is very hard to find a none bias view to fully understand what is going on.
   
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 05:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Razzmatazz Rach View Post
I really need this explaining to me. Why is everyone so angry and upset about this?

Being from the UK where we have the NHS so I don't know what the problem is with public healthcare.

You can still have private healthcare if you want it but people who can't afford it get healthcare too.

I really need the downsides explaining too me because I have seen the NHS and how it works and helps people, ok it isn't perfect but everyone gets treated and no one is left out because they don't have insurance
This bill isn't the NHS. Whether or not they serve the same purpose or not, you can only compare them at a basic level. They are both set up differently and will be administered by different people. So even if the NHS does a good job, there's nothing saying that the American version will.

And, besides, have you seen the discussions around here about whether smokers or overweight people should get healthcare? When tax money and the government get involved in something, it becomes far more complicated. And, to be totally honest, the government has in no way ever shown they can handle taking care of anything in an efficient way. Why do you think we are so far in debt? Because everything is a bureaucratic mess. My grandpa recently was part of a program where the government was trying to determine if he should be eligible for a settlement or compensation (not sure of all the details, I only heard about it secondhand from my mother, who was heavily involved. But it was based on exposure to radioactive materials, and he has developed cancer that doctors said could be linked to that exposure). Basically, the government hired dozens (or hundreds?) of people to go through all of the paperwork and decide who got what money. Guess what is happening now? All of the old people who were involved in this are dying off without ever seeing a cent because of all the red tape while the government is spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe millions, to decide how to spend their money. This is what I see healthcare becoming.

The reason I like private companies more is because they are generally out to make money. Not to help people, bot to promote a bunch of idealistic joy and happiness, but to be efficient and profitable. And sometimes this goes to far, which is where the government should be involved, but it generally just means that people end up with a much better experience because the company they are dealing with needs to be efficient and pleasant to use to survive. Will the government have that motivation? It should, but if they mandate healthcare, then all it has to do is exist. People will have no choice but to use it in a lot of cases. It won't need to be competitive, and I don't think it will be.

Now, if Congress had taken time to think about all of this and address some of the concerns of the American public, especially concerning the financial issues, I would have been much more supportive. The Republicans put forward MUCH more sensible ideas. Sweeping reforms that would make the president look like the supreme jedi ninja of change (right when, conveniently, his polls were tanking because he had done so little)? Nope. Sensible, thought out, gradual plans? Yep.

Of course, I'd like to add that this is all my opinion. Don't want to offend anyone's delicate sensibilities.


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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 05:25 PM

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Originally Posted by Razzmatazz Rach View Post


But isn't it like that now, if you can afford insurance then you can get treated and live.....

Also other places like the UK and Canada have a similar system and it works there, the government doesn't choose who lives and dies here so I don't get that point. Can you explain it more?

I don't mean for any of this to sound rude or stupid, I just don't understand much about this being from the UK. The only way I know bits about the reform from the internet, posts on here and The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. It is very hard to find a none bias view to fully understand what is going on.
Well, the way I see it is that some government peon in an IRS office somewhere is who gets to approve what operations and services get paid for. What if a smoker get's lung cancer? It's their own damn fault, don't use tax dollars, right? Or if a fat person has a health problem, their own fault, let's not make tax payers foot the bill, yeah? But, even if you agree with those, can you see where it is a slippery slope? What if my grandpa, in his 70s, needs a surgery. Would they use taxpayer money to pay for it when he's already so old and close to dying? I've seen all of these same debates about the NHS and, quite frankly, it's terrifying for the government to have their hand in something so important. As I said in my last post, they've never shown that they can run anything well, so why would this be different?


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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 05:40 PM

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They've never shown that they can run anything well, so why would this be different?
You see everything before you? Your house that doesn't fall down, electricity that works, your car that doesn't blow up, your roads that aren't dirt, your water that isn't disease infested, your fire and police departments that protect you, your plumbing that isn't a hole in the ground, your computer that doesn't shock you, and your internet?

None of this would be possible to maintain without the government. And seeing as how we're not all living in a Somalian esque rat-hole, I'd say they're doing pretty damn well.


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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 05:40 PM

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Well, the way I see it is that some government peon in an IRS office somewhere is who gets to approve what operations and services get paid for. What if a smoker get's lung cancer? It's their own damn fault, don't use tax dollars, right? Or if a fat person has a health problem, their own fault, let's not make tax payers foot the bill, yeah? But, even if you agree with those, can you see where it is a slippery slope? What if my grandpa, in his 70s, needs a surgery. Would they use taxpayer money to pay for it when he's already so old and close to dying? I've seen all of these same debates about the NHS and, quite frankly, it's terrifying for the government to have their hand in something so important. As I said in my last post, they've never shown that they can run anything well, so why would this be different?

I do get your point of view and I have seen the debates about obese people and smokers, I did say the NHS wasn't perfect. You say why should the tax payer pay the bill but what if the smoker or obese person is a tax payer, then technically they are paying the bill.

I have never had a bad experience in the NHS and I personally don't know anyone who has. There are horror stories but they are usually because of individual hospitals not the NHS itself.

You use the example of a 70 year old Grandad, my Grandad is 74 and last summer came very close to dying but the doctors and nurses worked so hard and operated to save his life and are treating him every week. He is here know because of the NHS he wouldn't be able to afford private insurance. I don't know of any cases where the NHS have just let people die because they are old, they may stop treating them because they are dying and there is no way to save them but if they can save them then they do try.

I have never experienced anything other than the NHS like most of you have never experience anything other than private healthcare so I have a feeling we will just go around in circles here. I can see the problem but I know there would be the same outrage here if they decided to get rid of the NHS and make all healthcare private.
   
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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 06:12 PM

Thank god, took you long enough America, welcome to the 21st Century

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWuM2iVVtaA

oh and LOL got to love satire! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHUr6qF6IR8


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Re: Healthcare Reform: Pass - March 22nd 2010, 06:30 PM

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You see everything before you? Your house that doesn't fall down, electricity that works, your car that doesn't blow up, your roads that aren't dirt, your water that isn't disease infested, your fire and police departments that protect you, your plumbing that isn't a hole in the ground, your computer that doesn't shock you, and your internet?

None of this would be possible to maintain without the government. And seeing as how we're not all living in a Somalian esque rat-hole, I'd say they're doing pretty damn well.
I'm pretty sure my house doesn't fall down because the previous owner paid good money to have it built well and my family has maintained it since we've bought it. As far as I know, the government has never sent a maintenance team out to make sure our house is doing alright.

Electricity I will give the government more credit for because of the regulation they do, but it is still a privately operated company out to make money and provide it's customers with a product they are happy with. I think that even without the government, it would be in their best interests to keep everything running smoothly.

Again, I'm pretty sure my car doesn't blow up because my family has paid to have it maintained and paid for a well made (well, kind of ) car in the first place. And companies themselves would be stupid to sell car that blow up randomly. Who would buy that? Do you see a lot of people rushing out to buy a Toyota right now? Business and competition will force them to make quality products or cheap products. There will always be some of both. The government may have hand in making them safer, but the auto companies wouldn't be selling exploding cars without the government, and if they did they'd probably go out of business.

This one I will give to the government. Though that still doesn't mean road maintenance is well run or efficient.

My water comes from a well, the government has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Fire and police departments are government run, yes, but I imagine that in their absence community run, volunteer organizations would develop. But I'll give you this one too, because, in general, fire and police departments work well and are very important.

My plumbing, again, has nothing to do with any government. It is a septic tank that the government has never come to check on (as far as I know) and yet still works just fine.

My computer doesn't shock me because I bought a quality computer and, again, it wouldn't be very good for a company to sell a product that shocked its customers. Bad PR, that.

And my internet isn't provided by the government. My family buys internet from a private company. Yes, the government may have a hand in regulation of it, but I highly doubt internet would cease to exist without them.

So, while I admit the government does do a lot to help things, they aren't the one single thing keeping us all from reverting the the stone age. And regardless of how much they do, that is not addressing my intended point (though maybe not communicated) that they are not efficient and never have been with anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzmatazz Rach View Post

I do get your point of view and I have seen the debates about obese people and smokers, I did say the NHS wasn't perfect. You say why should the tax payer pay the bill but what if the smoker or obese person is a tax payer, then technically they are paying the bill.

I have never had a bad experience in the NHS and I personally don't know anyone who has. There are horror stories but they are usually because of individual hospitals not the NHS itself.

You use the example of a 70 year old Grandad, my Grandad is 74 and last summer came very close to dying but the doctors and nurses worked so hard and operated to save his life and are treating him every week. He is here know because of the NHS he wouldn't be able to afford private insurance. I don't know of any cases where the NHS have just let people die because they are old, they may stop treating them because they are dying and there is no way to save them but if they can save them then they do try.

I have never experienced anything other than the NHS like most of you have never experience anything other than private healthcare so I have a feeling we will just go around in circles here. I can see the problem but I know there would be the same outrage here if they decided to get rid of the NHS and make all healthcare private.
See, I'm just worried that healthcare is going to become a mess of red tape. And those debates do scare me, because people get really worked up over tax money. So are they going to tax smokers extra? Make a fat tax? Not that I disagree with taxing cigarettes, for example, but at what point is the government going too far and getting too involved? I honestly don't know, and I don't think any of the lawmakers know. That is what scares me. Especially with how rushed all of this has been.

As then there is the financial burden. They said themselves that this will further increase the national debt AND increase taxes. I'm all for making sure everyone is healthy, but I think that it could have been done in a much better way than this bill.

Though, I do see what you're saying as well and will admit that perhaps things will turn out better than I imagine. Like I said, this just scares me because it seems very rash and impulsive and I can see a whole lot of dangers.


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