TeenHelp
Support Forums Today's Posts

Get Advice Connect with TeenHelp Resources
HelpLINK Facebook     Twitter     Tumblr     Instagram    Hotlines    Safety Zone    Alternatives

You are not registered or have not logged in

Hello guest! (Not a guest? Log in above!)

As a guest on TeenHelp you are only able to use some of our site's features. By registering an account you will be able to enjoy unlimited access to our site, and will be able to:

  • Connect with thousands of teenagers worldwide by actively taking part in our Support Forums and Chat Room.
  • Find others with similar interests in our Social Groups.
  • Express yourself through our Blogs, Picture Albums and User Profiles.
  • And much much more!

Signing up is free, anonymous and will only take a few moments, so click here to register now!


Current Events and Debates For discussions and friendly debates about politics and current events, check out this forum.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  (#1 (permalink)) Old
Power Cosmic Offline
Member
Outside, huh?
**********
 
Power Cosmic's Avatar
 
Name: Janos
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Posts: 3,922
Blog Entries: 225
Join Date: January 6th 2009

I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 09:08 AM

...Why is socialism bad?

I've been doing some research since this is my first year really voting ( don't ask) and its like, everyone just seems adamant that socialism is evil.
Why?

Is it just since Russia did it in the Cold War and hence its bad? Or is it since the rich want to remain richer and don't want to share the wealth?

I mean, power to the people is always a good thing, right?




"My one desire is for peace -- peace for everyone"

  Send a message via MSN to Power Cosmic  
  (#2 (permalink)) Old
CanadaCraig Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
CanadaCraig's Avatar
 
Age: 56
Gender: Male

Posts: 854
Join Date: January 6th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 10:20 AM

Hi Janos!!

I hope you're having a super fine day.

If YOU worked like a dog and were rewarded for your efforts with $10,000 and I did as little as I could get away with and had - as a result - almost nothing..... would YOU give ME half of what YOU'VE got?!

Socialist are usually [At least in my experience] the 'have nots'. It's understandable then that 'they' would be in favour of 'sharing' in the rewards of someone else's efforts.

I think that may be why many people think of socialism as 'evil'. [Although 'evil' is probably not the word I would use. 'Unfair' seems to sum it up for me]

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!
   
  (#3 (permalink)) Old
Frosty Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Frosty's Avatar
 
Age: 28

Posts: 790
Join Date: January 7th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
...Why is socialism bad?

I've been doing some research since this is my first year really voting ( don't ask) and its like, everyone just seems adamant that socialism is evil.
Why?

Is it just since Russia did it in the Cold War and hence its bad? Or is it since the rich want to remain richer and don't want to share the wealth?

I mean, power to the people is always a good thing, right?
Socialism in no way means "power to the people". If you reconsider this premise you'll be a lot closer to understanding why it is bad.
   
  (#4 (permalink)) Old
Power Cosmic Offline
Member
Outside, huh?
**********
 
Power Cosmic's Avatar
 
Name: Janos
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Posts: 3,922
Blog Entries: 225
Join Date: January 6th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 10:43 AM

That's communism though, not socialism, which is completely different.

Well, okay, not completely, but socialism is more about putting the power in the hands of ALL the people, and on the subject of pay and stuff, you get an amount decided by the amount of labour that is put into it, this can be intellectual or physical labour.

This is how I understand it anyways.


EDIT: Sorry Frosty, I didn't see your post there. Problem here is that there's loads of different types of socialism, I'm thinking more the types where the spheres that are nationalised and government controlled are all democratically elected. Thing is, if we weren't run by capitalism as we are, the government would be a lot more trusted (in theory, corruption etc. aside), and hence everything in theory would run a lot smoother.




"My one desire is for peace -- peace for everyone"

  Send a message via MSN to Power Cosmic  
  (#5 (permalink)) Old
Xujhan Offline
Resident Atheist
I can't get enough
*********
 
Xujhan's Avatar
 
Name: Fletcher
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posts: 2,024
Join Date: January 17th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 11:11 AM

It depends a little on what you mean by "socialism". Properly, I'd say the following sums it up pretty well:

"I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate the grave evils of capitalism, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow-men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society."

--Albert Einstein, 1949

What Craig's describing sounds more like communism than socialism. In a socialist society, if you did little work you'd still have little to show for it. You'd have enough to survive, but that'd be about all you could claim.

That all said, when you hear people these days blather on about how america's heading toward socialism or how this or that policy is socialist, or what have you, in most cases people mean something rather different; assuming they mean anything at all and aren't just spouting nonsense. There is plenty of that, sadly. But cries of "OH NOES SOCIALISM" generally refer to any piece of legislature which either allows the government to control or influence something, or involves the government spending more money. Bank bailouts? Socialist. Health reform? Socialist. Environmental policy? Socialist. Abortion? BABY KILLER!

Yeah, I don't get that one either. Who the hell yells "baby killer" during a serious debate in the US House of Representatives? And who the hell is electing these idiots? Seriously.

Also, I'd make some warning about using "in theory" when debating politics with Frosty, but on second thought he's about the only person here who can't call you on it.

And Frosty: believe it or not, most people who support socialism actually do think that it is "for the people." Believe them wrong as you like, but if you actually think that they support it only for their own personal gain then your soapbox is even bigger than I thought.

--

Edit: Sorry! Didn't realize that I didn't actually answer your question. People who think socialism is bad generally do so because, while it's great in theory, it's very prone to corruption in all its various forms. If we find some way to sufficiently safeguard the system against human greed, I think it would be practically Utopian. When people call socialism evil though, it's a predominantly american individualist mindset that being self-supporting is the height of personal success and they'd rather eat their shoes than accept help from the big, bad government. Pardon my sarcasm, but that's really what it boils down to most of the time.


The atoms that make up you and me were born in the hearts of suns many times greater than ours, and in time our atoms will once again reside amongst the stars. Life is but an idle dalliance of the cosmos, frail, and soon forgotten. We have been set adrift in an ocean whose tides we are only beginning to comprehend and with that maturity has come the realization that we are, at least for now, alone. In that loneliness, it falls to us to shine as brightly as the stars from which we came.

Last edited by Xujhan; March 23rd 2010 at 11:19 AM.
  Send a message via MSN to Xujhan  
1 user(s) liked this post or found it helpful.
  (#6 (permalink)) Old
Frosty Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Frosty's Avatar
 
Age: 28

Posts: 790
Join Date: January 7th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
EDIT: Sorry Frosty, I didn't see your post there. Problem here is that there's loads of different types of socialism, I'm thinking more the types where the spheres that are nationalised and government controlled are all democratically elected. Thing is, if we weren't run by capitalism as we are, the government would be a lot more trusted (in theory, corruption etc. aside), and hence everything in theory would run a lot smoother.
Now your problem is in assuming that democracy gives people power, atleast at the individual level. The difference between dictatorship and democracy is no say over how you are ruled vs. 1/however many millions vote say in how you are ruled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xujhan View Post
Also, I'd make some warning about using "in theory" when debating politics with Frosty, but on second thought he's about the only person here who can't call you on it.
If you think my rejection of empiricism and my rejection of the "good in theory, bad in practice" idea are in any way contradictory, you are fooling yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xujhan View Post
And Frosty: believe it or not, most people who support socialism actually do think that it is "for the people." Believe them wrong as you like, but if you actually think that they support it only for their own personal gain then your soapbox is even bigger than I thought.
My point was that expanding government control doesn't give individuals power, infact it does the exact opposite. Since his argument seemed to be centered around this assumption, I suggested that by questioning it he could potentially find the answer to his question.
   
  (#7 (permalink)) Old
Power Cosmic Offline
Member
Outside, huh?
**********
 
Power Cosmic's Avatar
 
Name: Janos
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Posts: 3,922
Blog Entries: 225
Join Date: January 6th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
Now your problem is in assuming that democracy gives people power, atleast at the individual level. The difference between dictatorship and democracy is no say over how you are ruled vs. 1/however many millions vote say in how you are ruled.
I really don't get what you mean here. Who cares about power on an individual level? That's just greed and egotism.

Well, to be honest, the only way to get what one wants as an individual is to storm the House of Commons or whereever with a small army and claim power, and that defeats the whole point of socialism.

Whilst in our capitalist society, the government is rife with corruption and scandal, with politicians bollocking up everything they can get their hands on (pardon the vernacular xD ), but in a socialist society, or hell, even in democracy in general, the government governs according to the will of the people, and if everything important is controlled by the government, it is in effect, Power to the People.


I really don't get how you think this is otherwise...you seem to think that since you personally don't get to impose your view on others, then the people don't have power, which is a bit silly really...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how it seems?

EDIT: Fletcher, really?? Someone yelled 'Baby Killer' during a debate in the US House of Representitives?...Damn =/. And I think the answer to your question is "more idiots"..

And yeah...that's why I made this thread. A proper socialist system, with enough safeguards would be a utopia, but I just keep seeing people frothing at the mouth at the very thought.




"My one desire is for peace -- peace for everyone"

  Send a message via MSN to Power Cosmic  
  (#8 (permalink)) Old
ThrashAttack Offline
Banned
I've been here a while
********
 
ThrashAttack's Avatar
 
Name: Will
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: Edge of Oblivion

Posts: 1,375
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: January 10th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 03:24 PM

Quote:
Whilst in our capitalist society, the government is rife with corruption and scandal
Our Goverment (uk) is a mess at the moment
  Send a message via MSN to ThrashAttack  
  (#9 (permalink)) Old
Blackwing Offline
I can't get enough
*********
 
Blackwing's Avatar
 
Name: Zack
Gender: Male
Location: Arizona(Usa)

Posts: 2,830
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: January 7th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 03:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by soulkiller7 View Post
Our Goverment (uk) is a mess at the moment

Also the United states Gov.


  Send a message via AIM to Blackwing  
  (#10 (permalink)) Old
ThrashAttack Offline
Banned
I've been here a while
********
 
ThrashAttack's Avatar
 
Name: Will
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: Edge of Oblivion

Posts: 1,375
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: January 10th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 03:46 PM

Quote:
Also the United states Gov.
Does your goverment have an expenses scandal or something similar?
  Send a message via MSN to ThrashAttack  
  (#11 (permalink)) Old
Xujhan Offline
Resident Atheist
I can't get enough
*********
 
Xujhan's Avatar
 
Name: Fletcher
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posts: 2,024
Join Date: January 17th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 03:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
If you think my rejection of empiricism and my rejection of the "good in theory, bad in practice" idea are in any way contradictory, you are fooling yourself.
I think that your rejection of "good in theory, bad in practice" is the pinnacle of irony; the phrase sums up your entire political philosophy as perfectly as any six words could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
My point was that expanding government control doesn't give individuals power, infact it does the exact opposite. Since his argument seemed to be centered around this assumption, I suggested that by questioning it he could potentially find the answer to his question.
But you also claimed that not giving power to individuals was bad. The entire premise of democracy is that it isn't. All individuals should have rights and a voice, but all individuals should not have power.


The atoms that make up you and me were born in the hearts of suns many times greater than ours, and in time our atoms will once again reside amongst the stars. Life is but an idle dalliance of the cosmos, frail, and soon forgotten. We have been set adrift in an ocean whose tides we are only beginning to comprehend and with that maturity has come the realization that we are, at least for now, alone. In that loneliness, it falls to us to shine as brightly as the stars from which we came.
  Send a message via MSN to Xujhan  
  (#12 (permalink)) Old
losing touch. Offline
oh, really?..
Jeez, get a life!
***********
 
losing touch.'s Avatar
 
Age: 26
Gender: Female
Location: UK

Posts: 5,996
Blog Entries: 537
Join Date: January 8th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 05:11 PM

could someone explain in words i might understand what socialism actually is? i'm doing politics as well, :/


..and our dreams will break the boundaries of our fears..



   
  (#13 (permalink)) Old
Nymous Offline
Member
Average Joe
***
 
Nymous's Avatar
 
Name: Clara
Age: 26
Gender: Female
Location: Belgium

Posts: 156
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: November 11th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 05:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elle. View Post
could someone explain in words i might understand what socialism actually is? i'm doing politics as well, :/
Socialism, not to confuse with communism, is the political ideology that wants a democratic society where everybody can tell what he want and where everybody can vote like he wants. Also, immigrants have to be accepted in the country. They want criminals to be punished in a justified way and they want everybody to have the same rights (human rights). Also, they believe that there should not be a difference between people for their etnicity and race, their gender or anything else. They believe that everybody has the right on a good, welfaring, healthy and human life.
But some people don't want equal rights and a democratic society. Some people don't want other people to have a good life.

Note: please do NOT confuse socialism to communism. Communism comes out of socialism, but it are two different things.
   
2 user(s) liked this post or found it helpful.
  (#14 (permalink)) Old
Member
I can't get enough
*********
 
her_beautiful_mistake's Avatar
 
Name: Rachel
Gender: Female
Location: Britland

Posts: 2,262
Blog Entries: 29
Join Date: January 18th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 05:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymous View Post
Socialism, not to confuse with communism, is the political ideology that wants a democratic society where everybody can tell what he want and where everybody can vote like he wants. Also, immigrants have to be accepted in the country. They want criminals to be punished in a justified way and they want everybody to have the same rights (human rights). Also, they believe that there should not be a difference between people for their etnicity and race, their gender or anything else. They believe that everybody has the right on a good, welfaring, healthy and human life.
But some people don't want equal rights and a democratic society. Some people don't want other people to have a good life.

Note: please do NOT confuse socialism to communism. Communism comes out of socialism, but it are two different things.
Sounds like a good thing to me.


(RAH) + (AH) + RO(MA + MAMA) + (GA) + OOH + (LA) = Bad Romance

Religion is like a penis.
It's fine to have one.
It's fine to be proud of it.
But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around.
And PLEASE don't try and shove it down my throat.
   
  (#15 (permalink)) Old
ThrashAttack Offline
Banned
I've been here a while
********
 
ThrashAttack's Avatar
 
Name: Will
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: Edge of Oblivion

Posts: 1,375
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: January 10th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 07:20 PM

Socislism and Capitilism are similar but not the same
  Send a message via MSN to ThrashAttack  
  (#16 (permalink)) Old
Nymous Offline
Member
Average Joe
***
 
Nymous's Avatar
 
Name: Clara
Age: 26
Gender: Female
Location: Belgium

Posts: 156
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: November 11th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 08:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrashAttack View Post
Socislism and Capitilism are similar but not the same
[Edited] Socialism is on the same side as Communism, and Communism is exactly the OPPOSITE of Capitalism.

Last edited by eunoia; March 26th 2010 at 07:20 PM. Reason: Do not make personal attacks.
   
  (#17 (permalink)) Old
ThrashAttack Offline
Banned
I've been here a while
********
 
ThrashAttack's Avatar
 
Name: Will
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: Edge of Oblivion

Posts: 1,375
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: January 10th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 08:31 PM

[Edited]
Ok i got it wrong, no need to dig into me ALRIGHT?

Last edited by eunoia; March 26th 2010 at 07:20 PM. Reason: Removing edited quote.
  Send a message via MSN to ThrashAttack  
  (#18 (permalink)) Old
losing touch. Offline
oh, really?..
Jeez, get a life!
***********
 
losing touch.'s Avatar
 
Age: 26
Gender: Female
Location: UK

Posts: 5,996
Blog Entries: 537
Join Date: January 8th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 09:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymous View Post
Socialism, not to confuse with communism, is the political ideology that wants a democratic society where everybody can tell what he want and where everybody can vote like he wants. Also, immigrants have to be accepted in the country. They want criminals to be punished in a justified way and they want everybody to have the same rights (human rights). Also, they believe that there should not be a difference between people for their etnicity and race, their gender or anything else. They believe that everybody has the right on a good, welfaring, healthy and human life.
But some people don't want equal rights and a democratic society. Some people don't want other people to have a good life.

Note: please do NOT confuse socialism to communism. Communism comes out of socialism, but it are two different things.
thank you for explaining.

it sounds good to me!


..and our dreams will break the boundaries of our fears..



   
  (#19 (permalink)) Old
Emily. Offline
taste the sky
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
Emily.'s Avatar
 
Name: Emily
Age: 29
Gender: Female
Location: middle of nowhere

Posts: 689
Join Date: February 3rd 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 09:27 PM

Quote:
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work don
This is the dictionary definition and I think that's about as pure as it gets without people distorting it to their own ideologies.

Basically the idea is that the government owns everything and you earn $$ amount based on how you contribute to society. It's a decent idea, unfortunately I can't think of any times in history where complete socialism has ever actually worked (Maybe Sweden pulled it off to some extent?? idk for sure). Some people are corrupt and greedy and it's often the nature of power to bring these characteristics out in people. With socialism you are completely at the mercy of the government. If you have a just system where all the leaders are in it for the good of the society, then you're okay, but realistically that is never going to happen. I have no problem with some programs being ran based on socialist ideas, but i'd be really scared to ever live under an entirely socialist government.


"Sometimes it's a struggle to be not who you want to be, not who you used to be, not who you're going to be,
but just being right where you are, who you are"

   
  (#20 (permalink)) Old
Frosty Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Frosty's Avatar
 
Age: 28

Posts: 790
Join Date: January 7th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 23rd 2010, 10:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
I really don't get what you mean here. Who cares about power on an individual level? That's just greed and egotism.
It's greed and egotism to believe the individuals should control their own life?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
Well, to be honest, the only way to get what one wants as an individual is to storm the House of Commons or whereever with a small army and claim power, and that defeats the whole point of socialism.
Or to have the liberty to act without the government controlling you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
Whilst in our capitalist society, the government is rife with corruption and scandal, with politicians bollocking up everything they can get their hands on (pardon the vernacular xD ), but in a socialist society, or hell, even in democracy in general, the government governs according to the will of the people, and if everything important is controlled by the government, it is in effect, Power to the People.
How do you think expanding government power is going to reduce corruption?

Also, our current government is not a capitalist institution. Stop getting your definitions of capitalism off Marxists who seem intent on simply screaming CAPITALIST PIG at anything they disagree with, whether it fits the underlying idealogy of capitalism or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
I really don't get how you think this is otherwise...you seem to think that since you personally don't get to impose your view on others, then the people don't have power, which is a bit silly really...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how it seems?
That's not what I said at all. I don't think anyone should have the right to force others to act as they wish, but that is exactly what you are advocating with socialism. I think socialism doesn't give people power because they are controlled by an all-powerful government. A reasonable concern as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
And yeah...that's why I made this thread. A proper socialist system, with enough safeguards would be a utopia, but I just keep seeing people frothing at the mouth at the very thought.
The problems with socialism are inherent witht he system. You aren't going to fix them merely by putting in safeguards or getting the right people into power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xujhan View Post
I think that your rejection of "good in theory, bad in practice" is the pinnacle of irony; the phrase sums up your entire political philosophy as perfectly as any six words could.
Well good to see you admit you can't refute my theory, and all you have is an appeal to the fact such a thing has never existed (so essentially calling democracy impossible a few hundred years ago, calling flight impossible before the Wright brothers etc.). Not to mention that Medieval Iceland was a reasonable approximation of anarcho-capitalism, if your brain really is incapable of discussing theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xujhan View Post
But you also claimed that not giving power to individuals was bad. The entire premise of democracy is that it isn't. All individuals should have rights and a voice, but all individuals should not have power.
When did I claim that giving power to individuals is bad? The fact that I believe in individual freedom is the very reason I reject socialism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elle. View Post
could someone explain in words i might understand what socialism actually is? i'm doing politics as well, :/
A system where the government controls the economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymous View Post
Socialism, not to confuse with communism, is the political ideology that wants a democratic society where everybody can tell what he want and where everybody can vote like he wants. Also, immigrants have to be accepted in the country. They want criminals to be punished in a justified way and they want everybody to have the same rights (human rights). Also, they believe that there should not be a difference between people for their etnicity and race, their gender or anything else. They believe that everybody has the right on a good, welfaring, healthy and human life.
But some people don't want equal rights and a democratic society. Some people don't want other people to have a good life.

Note: please do NOT confuse socialism to communism. Communism comes out of socialism, but it are two different things.
That had nothing to do with socialism.
   
  (#21 (permalink)) Old
Power Cosmic Offline
Member
Outside, huh?
**********
 
Power Cosmic's Avatar
 
Name: Janos
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Posts: 3,922
Blog Entries: 225
Join Date: January 6th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:12 AM

Frosty, I'm not just making a dig at you here dude, but you really don't seem to know what socialism is actually about.
The reasons you're saying it won't work are reasons created entirely by our corrupt NON-socialist society today. And the government doesn't control you, I'm not sure where you got that one from.

Also, Nymous' definition of socialism was dead on accurate, what was it you found wrong with it?

So explain to me how the government administrating important sectors of society, such as health and education takes away from freedom? I think you're confusing it with communism and failed attempts at such in the past.

Your remarks about having the power to control one's own life make it seem like you didn't even read what I wrote, or at least, you interpreted it differently from how I meant it.

You talk about personal power and stuff, but what does that even have to do with anything? You seem to have made a connection somewhere that socialism = lack of control over one's own life. Where did you get that one from?

As for our current government not being a capitalist institution...er...yes it is. Both our governments are just there for personal power and financial gain, rather than what's good for society, hence why we have all these problems.

And if it wasn't rife with such failure and corruption (again, pointing at the expenses scandals), then expanding the government wouldn't have any effect on corruption. I mean, where did I even link those two concepts? You seem to be pulling a lot of these statements out of no-where.
Also, my definition of capitalism is dead on, and I havn't read anything by Marx in my life, hell I only vaguely know who he is >.>.

Now, again, you seem to say socialism = big evil government forcing their will upon others...where did you get that from? And you seem to have not read what I said. The government is chosen by the people, hence reflects their will, and any processes being implemented would have to be democratically voted on by everyone. Hence, the will of the people. It really doesn't get any more basic than that.
I mean, socialism gives freedom to all, an egalitarian rather than selective freedom.

Go look up stuff about socialism, there's plenty of sources out there on the net, you don't really seem to know what it's actually all about.




"My one desire is for peace -- peace for everyone"

  Send a message via MSN to Power Cosmic  
1 user(s) liked this post or found it helpful.
  (#22 (permalink)) Old
ThrashAttack Offline
Banned
I've been here a while
********
 
ThrashAttack's Avatar
 
Name: Will
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: Edge of Oblivion

Posts: 1,375
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: January 10th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:17 AM

well said Quintessence

Quote:
and I havn't read anything by Marx in my life, hell I only vaguely know who he is >.>.
Karl Marx helped publish the communist manifesto
  Send a message via MSN to ThrashAttack  
  (#23 (permalink)) Old
Power Cosmic Offline
Member
Outside, huh?
**********
 
Power Cosmic's Avatar
 
Name: Janos
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Posts: 3,922
Blog Entries: 225
Join Date: January 6th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrashAttack View Post
well said Quintessence


Karl Marx helped publish the communist manifesto
Cheers Will =). And call me Janos.

And ah, yeah I know that much, just that's about all I know. I don't really know what he did or if he did anything bar defining communism etc.




"My one desire is for peace -- peace for everyone"

  Send a message via MSN to Power Cosmic  
  (#24 (permalink)) Old
ThrashAttack Offline
Banned
I've been here a while
********
 
ThrashAttack's Avatar
 
Name: Will
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: Edge of Oblivion

Posts: 1,375
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: January 10th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:32 AM

Np Janos

He was German and he said that Capitalism would destroy itself and be replaced by socialism
  Send a message via MSN to ThrashAttack  
  (#25 (permalink)) Old
Member
Experienced TeenHelper
******
 
hecanandWILLchangeyou's Avatar
 
Name: Emily
Age: 28
Gender: Female
Location: Georgia( the U.S. state)

Posts: 549
Blog Entries: 2
Join Date: August 26th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:35 AM

The deal is it starts out as a GREAT idea on paper but then things tend to get out of control government gets power hungry and it is a mess.


here lies the monster 8-13-06 to 2-19-10
   
  (#26 (permalink)) Old
ThrashAttack Offline
Banned
I've been here a while
********
 
ThrashAttack's Avatar
 
Name: Will
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: Edge of Oblivion

Posts: 1,375
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: January 10th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:41 AM

same story everytime
  Send a message via MSN to ThrashAttack  
  (#27 (permalink)) Old
Xujhan Offline
Resident Atheist
I can't get enough
*********
 
Xujhan's Avatar
 
Name: Fletcher
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Location: Ontario, Canada

Posts: 2,024
Join Date: January 17th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 01:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence
Frosty, I'm not just making a dig at you here dude, but you really don't seem to know what socialism is actually about.
The reasons you're saying it won't work are reasons created entirely by our corrupt NON-socialist society today. And the government doesn't control you, I'm not sure where you got that one from.

Oh lord, don't get him started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
Well good to see you admit you can't refute my theory, and all you have is an appeal to the fact such a thing has never existed (so essentially calling democracy impossible a few hundred years ago, calling flight impossible before the Wright brothers etc.). Not to mention that Medieval Iceland was a reasonable approximation of anarcho-capitalism, if your brain really is incapable of discussing theory.
That's twice your entire refutation has been to insult me. Considering your fondness for pointing out the logical fallacies of others, I'd say the irony just keeps getting sweeter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
When did I claim that [not] giving power to individuals is bad? The fact that I believe in individual freedom is the very reason I reject socialism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty
Socialism in no way means "power to the people". If you reconsider this premise you'll be a lot closer to understanding why it is bad.
If you meant something else, you should have worded that post rather differently. Though the more I read of you, the more I begin to suspect that you're only the elitist breed of that same car-tourching anarchist mindset you once so scathingly accused someone else of being.

Hey look, I can be a jerk on the internet too! Gosh this is fun.


The atoms that make up you and me were born in the hearts of suns many times greater than ours, and in time our atoms will once again reside amongst the stars. Life is but an idle dalliance of the cosmos, frail, and soon forgotten. We have been set adrift in an ocean whose tides we are only beginning to comprehend and with that maturity has come the realization that we are, at least for now, alone. In that loneliness, it falls to us to shine as brightly as the stars from which we came.
  Send a message via MSN to Xujhan  
  (#28 (permalink)) Old
Frosty Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Frosty's Avatar
 
Age: 28

Posts: 790
Join Date: January 7th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 11:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
Frosty, I'm not just making a dig at you here dude, but you really don't seem to know what socialism is actually about.
The reasons you're saying it won't work are reasons created entirely by our corrupt NON-socialist society today.
The socialist calculation problem is merely a product of my non-socialist society? The immorality of government force is merely a product of a non-socialist society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
And the government doesn't control you, I'm not sure where you got that one from.
Governments rule people and tell them what to do. I don't see what's hard to get about that. I'm sure even those who find no fault with the government would accept that definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
Also, Nymous' definition of socialism was dead on accurate, what was it you found wrong with it?
What I found wrong with it was that it was merely a collection of nice-sounding principals with a tenous connection to socialism at best. Socialism is a system where government controls the economy. Even it's advocates generally have no issue with that definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
So explain to me how the government administrating important sectors of society, such as health and education takes away from freedom?
Because government intervention is characterised by the use of violent force or the threat of such. Whether this be through it's financing, or through direct control of the market such as banning competition etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
I think you're confusing it with communism and failed attempts at such in the past.
They are essentially the same thing, unless you want to define communism as the Marxist pipe dream of the society socialism would turn into. And even that would be irrelevant because all attempts at communism have become stuck in the socialist stage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
Your remarks about having the power to control one's own life make it seem like you didn't even read what I wrote, or at least, you interpreted it differently from how I meant it.
Government restricts people's freedom, reducing their power to control their own life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
As for our current government not being a capitalist institution...er...yes it is. Both our governments are just there for personal power and financial gain, rather than what's good for society, hence why we have all these problems.
The government isn't capitalist even by the definition you gave. How can a government be part of a system of private property when it must by it's nature violate private property to exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
And if it wasn't rife with such failure and corruption (again, pointing at the expenses scandals), then expanding the government wouldn't have any effect on corruption. I mean, where did I even link those two concepts? You seem to be pulling a lot of these statements out of no-where.
You can't just assume away problems with government and then prove a government run economy would be successful, which is what you seem to be doing here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
Also, my definition of capitalism is dead on, and I havn't read anything by Marx in my life, hell I only vaguely know who he is >.>.
The definition you gave (a system of private property) was dead on, but your problem is that the rest of your argument doesn't mesh with this definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
Now, again, you seem to say socialism = big evil government forcing their will upon others...where did you get that from?
From the fact socialism is government control of the economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
And you seem to have not read what I said. The government is chosen by the people, hence reflects their will, and any processes being implemented would have to be democratically voted on by everyone. Hence, the will of the people. It really doesn't get any more basic than that.
Democracy is nothing more than mob rule. Gang rape on a desert island reflects the majority rule, is that moral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
I mean, socialism gives freedom to all, an egalitarian rather than selective freedom.
No, it doesn't. You can't give freedom to all in a society controlled by a government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quintessence View Post
Go look up stuff about socialism, there's plenty of sources out there on the net, you don't really seem to know what it's actually all about.
I've read up on it quite a bit thankyou, and what I've read is of a bit more substance than some vague and irrelevant statement posted on a message board.

I must say that this thread is a bit misleading. I came in here expecting someone genuinly uneducated yet curious, gave a few helpful hints to get them thinking the right way about things, and came upon a hardcore socialist who seems to be very set in their beliefs.


Anyway, post what you think socialism and capitalism mean, and I will post what I find wrong with what you see socialism to be/what I find wrong with your characterisation of capitalism. Otherwise we're probably just going to spend endless pages talking past one another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hecanandWILLchangeyou View Post
The deal is it starts out as a GREAT idea on paper but then things tend to get out of control government gets power hungry and it is a mess.
If an idea is good on paper, it will work in reality. If it doesn't work in reality, you need to check over the theory and find what is wrong there, because there inevitably is. Socialism is a bad idea on paper, and as a result it fails in practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xujhan View Post
That's twice your entire refutation has been to insult me. Considering your fondness for pointing out the logical fallacies of others, I'd say the irony just keeps getting sweeter.
Really? All of that was a personal attack? Are we reading the same post here? First I give some examples to show the absurdity of "it's never happened therefore it's impossible", and then I give an actual historical example, essentially refuting you even if it were the case that a lack of historical precedent invalidates a theory. I suggest you read back over it if all you got was a personal attack against you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xujhan View Post
If you meant something else, you should have worded that post rather differently. Though the more I read of you, the more I begin to suspect that you're only the elitist breed of that same car-tourching anarchist mindset you once so scathingly accused someone else of being.
I think I worded it just fine. I never said that giving power to the people is a bad thing, I challenged the idea that this can be achieved through socialism. If you got something differently out of it I suggest you read over it again and/or work on your reading comprehension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xujhan View Post
Hey look, I can be a jerk on the internet too! Gosh this is fun.
If you're going to try and mimic me and be a jerk, I'd appreciate it if you extended the mimicry to include something of substance behind what you say.
   
  (#29 (permalink)) Old
Nymous Offline
Member
Average Joe
***
 
Nymous's Avatar
 
Name: Clara
Age: 26
Gender: Female
Location: Belgium

Posts: 156
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: November 11th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrashAttack View Post
Ok i got it wrong, no need to dig into me ALRIGHT?
I apologize, that was jerky of me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
That had nothing to do with socialism.
Really? Frosty, if I would ask you: 'what is the definition of an American' and you would tell me 'someone who lives in America', would I tell you: 'that has nothing to do with American'? No.

Why the hell am I telling you this? Because in the case you didn't notice, I'M A SOCIALIST! And I don't want the government to rule everybody's life. That's not socialism! I'm only telling what is socialism and just because you are too stubborn to admit that socialists only want freedom, doesn't mean that it's not the truth!
I mean, socialism wants freedom. Get over it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
If you're going to try and mimic me and be a jerk, I'd appreciate it if you extended the mimicry to include something of substance behind what you say.
Wait, did you ever told something of substance, then? Useful substance? You must be joking.
(Frosty, I'm sorry, don't take it too personally please, I could not let that chance go to be a jerk)
   
  (#30 (permalink)) Old
Frosty Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Frosty's Avatar
 
Age: 28

Posts: 790
Join Date: January 7th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymous View Post
Really? Frosty, if I would ask you: 'what is the definition of an American' and you would tell me 'someone who lives in America', would I tell you: 'that has nothing to do with American'? No.

Why the hell am I telling you this? Because in the case you didn't notice, I'M A SOCIALIST! And I don't want the government to rule everybody's life. That's not socialism! I'm only telling what is socialism and just because you are too stubborn to admit that socialists only want freedom, doesn't mean that it's not the truth!
I mean, socialism wants freedom. Get over it!
Well I think my definition of socialism is one generally accepted, but anyway, what do you see as the role of government in society? For all we know I might not even consider you a socialist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymous View Post
Wait, did you ever told something of substance, then? Useful substance? You must be joking.
I'm fairly certain I have actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymous View Post
(Frosty, I'm sorry, don't take it too personally please, I could not let that chance go to be a jerk)
This is the internet. It would be foolish of me to take offence at anything even if you meant to cause offence.
   
  (#31 (permalink)) Old
ThrashAttack Offline
Banned
I've been here a while
********
 
ThrashAttack's Avatar
 
Name: Will
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: Edge of Oblivion

Posts: 1,375
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: January 10th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:26 PM

Quote:
I apologize, that was jerky of me.
Thats ok. Im sorry as well, i just get annoyed when people correct me. No hard feelings though
  Send a message via MSN to ThrashAttack  
  (#32 (permalink)) Old
Nymous Offline
Member
Average Joe
***
 
Nymous's Avatar
 
Name: Clara
Age: 26
Gender: Female
Location: Belgium

Posts: 156
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: November 11th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
Well I think my definition of socialism is one generally accepted, but anyway, what do you see as the role of government in society? For all we know I might not even consider you a socialist.
Did you listen during history classes when the history teacher learned you about dicators? Hitler was not a socialist. Stalin and Lenin were no socialists. Mao is no socialists. Julius Caesar was no socialist. Franco was no socialist. But, you definition of a socialist looks like the definition of a dictator. It's not the same!
A socialist government is not an absolutistic government!
And everyone thinks that his definition of socialist is generally accepted, so that means nothing. In every case, in my country your definition of socialism is not generally accepted. And no, it's not a socialist country. For the case you don't know it: socialism saved us from slavery in the cotton industry. If you would be on my school and you would be telling such a things, they would fire you.
   
1 user(s) liked this post or found it helpful.
  (#33 (permalink)) Old
ThrashAttack Offline
Banned
I've been here a while
********
 
ThrashAttack's Avatar
 
Name: Will
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: Edge of Oblivion

Posts: 1,375
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: January 10th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:31 PM

I dont think there have been any socialist Dictators. I could be wrong though

Has anyone here read animal farm?
  Send a message via MSN to ThrashAttack  
  (#34 (permalink)) Old
Nymous Offline
Member
Average Joe
***
 
Nymous's Avatar
 
Name: Clara
Age: 26
Gender: Female
Location: Belgium

Posts: 156
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: November 11th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrashAttack View Post
I dont think there have been any socialist Dictators. I could be wrong though
Exactly my point. I don't say that every dicator has been a fascist, but most of them have been capitalistic in a way. Even Stalin has done capitalistic things, even thought he pretended to be a communist.
   
  (#35 (permalink)) Old
ThrashAttack Offline
Banned
I've been here a while
********
 
ThrashAttack's Avatar
 
Name: Will
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: Edge of Oblivion

Posts: 1,375
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: January 10th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:37 PM

Quote:
Even Stalin has done capitalistic things, even thought he pretended to be a communist.
I dont consider what happend in the Soviet Union to be true Communism. Even by the late sixties/early seventies most people in the soviet occupied zones had forgotten about lenin and his legacy
  Send a message via MSN to ThrashAttack  
  (#36 (permalink)) Old
Frosty Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Frosty's Avatar
 
Age: 28

Posts: 790
Join Date: January 7th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymous View Post
Did you listen during history classes when the history teacher learned you about dicators? Hitler was not a socialist. Stalin and Lenin were no socialists. Mao is no socialists. Julius Caesar was no socialist. Franco was no socialist. But, you definition of a socialist looks like the definition of a dictator. It's not the same!
A socialist government is not an absolutistic government!
As far as I'm concerned, a socialist government is one which controls the economy, which all of those reigeims followed to an extent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymous View Post
And everyone thinks that his definition of socialist is generally accepted, so that means nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Socialism refers to the various theories of economic organization which advocate either public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources.
That sounds an awful lot like my definition, but not a lot like yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymous View Post
For the case you don't know it: socialism saved us from slavery in the cotton industry.
How so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymous View Post
If you would be on my school and you would be telling such a things, they would fire you.
So what?
   
  (#37 (permalink)) Old
Nymous Offline
Member
Average Joe
***
 
Nymous's Avatar
 
Name: Clara
Age: 26
Gender: Female
Location: Belgium

Posts: 156
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: November 11th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 01:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
How so?
If socialism hadn't existed, I wouldn't even go to school now, but I would wake up every day at 5 a.m. to work from 6 a.m. until 18 a.m. in a cotton factory, already from my 6th year. That's why socialism saved us from slavery.
   
  (#38 (permalink)) Old
ThrashAttack Offline
Banned
I've been here a while
********
 
ThrashAttack's Avatar
 
Name: Will
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Location: Edge of Oblivion

Posts: 1,375
Blog Entries: 3
Join Date: January 10th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 01:16 PM

Quote:
If socialism hadn't existed, I wouldn't even go to school now, but I would wake up every day at 5 a.m. to work from 6 a.m. until 18 a.m. in a cotton factory, already from my 6th year. That's why socialism saved us from slavery.
Kind of the same story over here, before we had the Liberals (not the Liberal Democrats we have now) there were places over here called 'workhouses' , our towns and cities were full of disease and poor conditions. Unemployment was high. The Liberals came in and everything changed.
  Send a message via MSN to ThrashAttack  
  (#39 (permalink)) Old
Frosty Offline
Member
Senior TeenHelper
*******
 
Frosty's Avatar
 
Age: 28

Posts: 790
Join Date: January 7th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 01:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymous View Post
If socialism hadn't existed, I wouldn't even go to school now, but I would wake up every day at 5 a.m. to work from 6 a.m. until 18 a.m. in a cotton factory, already from my 6th year. That's why socialism saved us from slavery.
No, I asked you how it saved you. All you've done is re-assert that it did.
   
  (#40 (permalink)) Old
Power Cosmic Offline
Member
Outside, huh?
**********
 
Power Cosmic's Avatar
 
Name: Janos
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Location: Dundee, Scotland

Posts: 3,922
Blog Entries: 225
Join Date: January 6th 2009

Re: I'm not the most politically educated guy around so tell me... - March 24th 2010, 06:26 PM

It makes me laugh that you think I'm a hardcore socialist >.>. I just think it sounds like a good idea and was wondering why people would think otherwise.

From what I gather, it seems that its because you think it equates to governmental tyranny, which isn't what the particular type of socialism I'm thinking about involves. I guess that's one of the problems when we're discussing a political system that has like a hundred different variants. I think that's where we reach a stalemate, you seem to think that socialism = lack of freedom, I don't. I mean, sure in socialist/communist regimes in the past, if anyone protested they'd get run over in tanks, but that's nothing to do with socialism, that's just that country being all corrupt. In actual socialism, it's not about that and everyone would have the right to protest something they don't like.

Also, you make that (rather tasteless) gang rape analogy, but that's going into something completely different, that the masses need education and stuff.




"My one desire is for peace -- peace for everyone"

  Send a message via MSN to Power Cosmic  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
educated, guy, politically

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All material copyright 1998-2019, TeenHelp.
Terms | Legal | Privacy | Conduct | Complaints

Powered by vBulletin®.
Copyright ©2000-2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search engine optimization by vBSEO.
Theme developed in association with vBStyles.