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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Abortion - August 21st 2010, 02:01 AM

I'm sure there has been a thread about this before, but I haven't seen one in a while so I decided to make one.

Are you pro-life, pro-choice, or pro-abortion?

I personally am pro-life.
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 02:14 AM

Another abortion debate?
Ah, well.

I am pro life. If you have sex, then deal with the consequences. I feel like a unborn child has every right to life. If your raped, then i believe that you should have a choice. That is just my opinion. My mom had an abortion between my brother and sister, and she struggled emotionally for a while.




   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 02:41 AM

Use the search button. The same people post over and over anyways and I doubt their views change lol.


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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 02:43 AM

Seems like almost every week there's a new abortion thread. Well, my view hasn't changed, I support abortion even during the later terms of the pregnancy. I don't consider it murder because the fetus is not a person but still is a human. If the woman wants the abortion or needs it, then she should have it.
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 02:46 AM

Pro-let's-not-dump-more-unwanted-babies-into-an-already-over-populated-world.


The atoms that make up you and me were born in the hearts of suns many times greater than ours, and in time our atoms will once again reside amongst the stars. Life is but an idle dalliance of the cosmos, frail, and soon forgotten. We have been set adrift in an ocean whose tides we are only beginning to comprehend and with that maturity has come the realization that we are, at least for now, alone. In that loneliness, it falls to us to shine as brightly as the stars from which we came.
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 03:01 AM

First of all THERE IS NO ONE WHO IS PRO-ABORTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please find me one person who is out there saying that all women should abort their babies, because that is what pro-abortion means.

Secondly I'm pro-choice. I think that people's personal beliefs, and this argument is based soley on beliefs since pro-life people never seem to want to pay attention to the science, should NOT influence other people's lives. If you don't want an abortion, don't get one, but who are you to tell someone else what to do with their body?


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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 03:10 AM

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Originally Posted by skylight View Post
Another abortion debate?
Ah, well.

I am pro life. If you have sex, then deal with the consequences. I feel like a unborn child has every right to life. If your raped, then i believe that you should have a choice. That is just my opinion. My mom had an abortion between my brother and sister, and she struggled emotionally for a while.
i'm in the same boat as you.
you deal with the consequences of your sexual conquests
& if raped you have a choice...
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 03:12 AM

I am 100% pro-choice and rather than type out another reply to a topic I've posted in a million times before (after all, there are only a certain amount of ways I can rephrase the same belief/information ) I will instead copy and paste a reply from a previous thread and go from there.

I very much can't understand the pro-life point of view. To me, they have no argument. Abortion is legal as a matter of necessity. The reason abortion is legal is because when abortion was not legal very large numbers of women were dieing or seriously injuring themselves via dangerous illegal abortions. According to The Lancet in 2003 48% of all abortions worldwide were unsafe, and more than 97% of all unsafe abortions were in developing countries [Source] and the BBC state that 10,000 women die every year in Nigeria (where abortion is illegal) from unsafe abortions [Source]. This just shows that just because abortion is illegal does not mean that people will be discouraged. It's a simple logical case of one death is better than two. While many may not personally like abortion it seems to me that nobody should say that it is unnecessary or should be illegal unless they wish to cause an awful lot of harm. To want abortion to be illegal and for many women not to die is to both want to have your cake and eat it too, the world doesn't work like that.

As for abortion in general, I think it's fine. The only abortions I really have a problem with are late term abortions and considering only 1.6% of abortions are late term abortions it's not such a massive deal, I wouldn't be against lowering the time limit to 20 weeks or slightly earlier. 87% of abortions take place before 12 weeks, before the brain is even working [Source]. An unthinking ball of tissue, which potentially (barring miscarriages and other possibilities) could be a human, can't be allowed to have more rights than a living person.

At worst abortion is a necessary evil.

Remember that simply because you dislike abortion doesn't mean you are automatically pro-life. You can dislike abortion as much as you like, but if you realise that the option is a necessity in any modern society then you're still pro choice.

Similarly, to those people saying that women who have sex should "deal with the consequences", you're ignoring the fact that an abortion IS dealing with the consequences (the consequence in question being pregnancy) just simply in a way which you do not approve of.
   
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August 21st 2010, 03:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skylight View Post
Another abortion debate?
Ah, well.

I am pro life. If you have sex, then deal with the consequences. I feel like a unborn child has every right to life. If your raped, then i believe that you should have a choice. That is just my opinion. My mom had an abortion between my brother and sister, and she struggled emotionally for a while.

Pro-Life as well. I second this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigmole View Post
First of all THERE IS NO ONE WHO IS PRO-ABORTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please find me one person who is out there saying that all women should abort their babies, because that is what pro-abortion means.

Secondly I'm pro-choice. I think that people's personal beliefs, and this argument is based soley on beliefs since pro-life people never seem to want to pay attention to the science, should NOT influence other people's lives. If you don't want an abortion, don't get one, but who are you to tell someone else what to do with their body?
*Points finger* Fletcher is =P


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Last edited by Jack; August 21st 2010 at 03:24 AM. Reason: Merging posts
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 03:14 AM

Quote:
First of all THERE IS NO ONE WHO IS PRO-ABORTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please find me one person who is out there saying that all women should abort their babies, because that is what pro-abortion means.
I would say that I've seen people who are more pro-abortion than pro-choice. I think that pro-abortion means you try to convince other people that they should have an abortion. I've certainly seen people who say the only "smart" option for pregnant teenagers is to get an abortion. Obviously there would be very few people who would say all babies should be aborted (though I'm sure there are some). But there are people who are more for abortion than they are for choice.

I am pro-choice because I think there are instances where abortion would be the best option for the mother and I really don't have the right to tell anyone else what to do with their body and their baby. That being said, I would never choose an abortion (unless it was medically necessary for some reason, but I don't think that's really a choice). And it really upsets me when I see someone having an abortion because they apparently couldn't bare to give the baby up for adoption. I don't see how you can be okay with aborting the baby, but giving it to another family would be too hard? And it annoys me when people say "I'm having an abortion because it's best for the baby". Unless the baby has some medical illness that would cause it a lot of pain for all its life, I just can't see how it's best for the baby.



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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 03:23 AM

I'm pro-choice.

Although I don't think abortion should be used as a repeated form of contraception. Fair enough you have unprotected sex once and it was a mistake but to keep doing it and keep getting abortions is just silly.
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 04:00 AM

Pro choice.

I can certainly understand why people would be pro life. I don't think I could get an abortion myself- I just don't believe I have the right to make that desicion for others.

Personally, I don't see a fetus as a 'clump of snot' as some have called it, but I don't see it as a human baby either.

I am certainly against late term abortion however.

I wish that pro lifers would show some of that compassion they like to talk about (saving babies from murderers and all) to those kids being abused in foster care. Or to single mother struggling to feed their kids. Or maybe a teen mother, trying to raise a kid while still being a kid.

I think it's a much kinder thing to do for any 'potential child' to have an abortion, than submit them to a life of cruelty and pain.

Most people get so fired up about this, but I generally can sympathise with all view points- Except one.

Honestly, when people say 'I think abortion should be illegal except when you are raped' it makes me want to throw things. It has to be the most ridiculous opinion on the topic, period.

If you think abortion is murder, then why would you be okay with 'murdering' a baby because of how it was concieved?

So you either think

1) Rape babies don't deserve to live.
2) Children should be a consequence.

Children should NOT, repeat NOT just be their to remind someone they are paying for having sex. I can't believe people actually think 'Well, you made your bed, lie in it' when it comes to this issue. A child is not a learning curb. It blows my mind that people think abortion should be illegal as children are a punishment for sex.


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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 04:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie View Post

I would say that I've seen people who are more pro-abortion than pro-choice. I think that pro-abortion means you try to convince other people that they should have an abortion. I've certainly seen people who say the only "smart" option for pregnant teenagers is to get an abortion. Obviously there would be very few people who would say all babies should be aborted (though I'm sure there are some). But there are people who are more for abortion than they are for choice.

I am pro-choice because I think there are instances where abortion would be the best option for the mother and I really don't have the right to tell anyone else what to do with their body and their baby. That being said, I would never choose an abortion (unless it was medically necessary for some reason, but I don't think that's really a choice). And it really upsets me when I see someone having an abortion because they apparently couldn't bare to give the baby up for adoption. I don't see how you can be okay with aborting the baby, but giving it to another family would be too hard? And it annoys me when people say "I'm having an abortion because it's best for the baby". Unless the baby has some medical illness that would cause it a lot of pain for all its life, I just can't see how it's best for the baby.
I guess it depends on how you view the term "pro-abortion". See I see pro-life as someone who has a view and is forcing that view onto other people, by wanting to make abortion illegal. However even if someone believes that what's best for teen mothers in abortion, they are not forcing those mother to get one. They still have the option, one or the other, so it's a choice. Certainly there are cases where a young girl's parents might tell her she HAS to get an abortion, but I wouldn't call those people pro-abortion because I don't see them forcing people they don't know into it. You see I would describe a pro-abortion person as someone who believes that there should be a law that all unwanted pregnancies should be aborted, and that adoption shouldn't even be an option. And I really don't think someone exists who has that point of view.


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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 06:18 AM

Pro-Responsibility. If you're not mature enough to accept the potential consequences of your actions, you're not mature enough to be having sex. That's my view: plain and simple.
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 06:43 AM

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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
Pro-Responsibility. If you're not mature enough to accept the potential consequences of your actions, you're not mature enough to be having sex. That's my view: plain and simple.
So a living breathing human children should just live to demonstrate that the parent in question was too immature to use contraception?


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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 07:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova View Post
Pro-Responsibility. If you're not mature enough to accept the potential consequences of your actions, you're not mature enough to be having sex. That's my view: plain and simple.
That line of thinking, while something I think is a good guideline, fails in an abortion thread because of possibilities of pregnancy due to rape, having someone much older convince someone who is very immature and younger, and lastly, pregnancy due to failed condoms/other contraception. You're assuming all pregnancies are from willing mature couples in saying have sex only when both partners are mature and responsible, however, that's not the case in what really happens.
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 07:57 AM

Pro-choice. I'd never get an abortion myself though. Logically I know the fetus isn't the same as a baby, but emotionally I can't shake the fact that it develops so quickly and actually looks like a little baby, and is not just a blob of cells.


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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 08:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marguerite View Post
So a living breathing human children should just live to demonstrate that the parent in question was too immature to use contraception?

"Why was I born mummy?"
"Well, little Jimmy, I just wanted to be reminded of how stupid I was for having unprotected sex! Sure, you've been a burden, but at least I took responsibility."
There are other options. I'm not saying you have to keep the child. But having an abortion is taking the easy way out when you should have had the common sense to know that pregnancy is always a possibility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WOW!USaidSomethingSmart! View Post
That line of thinking, while something I think is a good guideline, fails in an abortion thread because of possibilities of pregnancy due to rape, having someone much older convince someone who is very immature and younger, and lastly, pregnancy due to failed condoms/other contraception. You're assuming all pregnancies are from willing mature couples in saying have sex only when both partners are mature and responsible, however, that's not the case in what really happens.
That's not exactly what I mean. Rape isn't really "having sex" how I meant it in my guideline. It's not consensual. It's abuse. And obviously those exceptions apply. Perhaps I should have expanded my original statement to say this.

Failed condoms and contraception. Well sorry, but sex was designed, first and foremost, to make babies. You can take the precautions (and that's great) to prevent it from happening, but if you don't want to deal with the possibility of pregnancy, albeit very slight... well, I stand by my original statement.

Last edited by Nova; August 21st 2010 at 08:48 AM.
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 08:49 AM

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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
Failed condoms and contraception. Well sorry, but sex was designed, first and foremost, to make babies. You can take the precautions (and that's great) to prevent it from happening, but if you don't want to deal with the possibility of pregnancy, albeit very slight... well, I stand by my original statement.
I agree that if you have consensual sex using precautions, if they fail and a pregnancy occurs, you should be ready to handle it in a mature and responsible way. If you don't have a clue what to do if a pregnancy occurs, then I agree with you in saying zip your pants and close the legs.
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 08:59 AM

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Originally Posted by WOW!USaidSomethingSmart! View Post
I agree that if you have consensual sex using precautions, if they fail and a pregnancy occurs, you should be ready to handle it in a mature and responsible way. If you don't have a clue what to do if a pregnancy occurs, then I agree with you in saying zip your pants and close the legs.
Amen.
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 09:13 AM

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Originally Posted by Algernon View Post
*Points finger* Fletcher is =P
Hey now, quit putting words in my mouth. I reserve that honour for only my closest friends, and generally not regarding words. Taylor's definition was someone who thinks everyone should have abortions, and that's certainly not what I think. I think if you want an abortion, you should have one. I think either abortion should be completely legal, or alternately everyone who is pro-life should put their name on a list and every time someone who wanted to get an abortion but couldn't has a child they don't want, a pro-lifer is chosen from the list and they have to raise the child.

Live with the consequences of your actions, right? By voting pro-life you're bringing unwanted children into the world. That is a direct consequence of your voluntary action. You get to take responsibility for that.

(point obviously not meant literally)


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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 09:41 AM

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Originally Posted by Xujhan View Post
I think either abortion should be completely legal, or alternately everyone who is pro-life should put their name on a list and every time someone who wanted to get an abortion but couldn't has a child they don't want, a pro-lifer is chosen from the list and they have to raise the child.
How does that make sense? Someone couldn't keep it in their pants and so now you want to dish the responsibility off on someone else, just because they think that it's wrong? Though, I do think adoption is an excellent choice for unwanted pregnancies.


Quote:
Live with the consequences of your actions, right? By voting pro-life you're bringing unwanted children into the world. That is a direct consequence of your voluntary action. You get to take responsibility for that.

(point obviously not meant literally)
I don't even understand what your point is... because, YES. Live with your actions (but that doesn't mean keep the child, as that may not be the responsible thing to do).

And by preaching pro-responsibility, I don't really mean pro-life (if your statement was aimed at me). While I'd certainly give the right to any rape victim or the like, I've actually seen another case where the responsible thing to do was abortion. And I'm not ignorant enough to know that a few more exceptions may exist.

But on a whole. I just feel like not wanting to go through an unwanted pregnancy is irresponsible and having the option to just "nip it in the bud" is a cop out. It's like "Oh no, I didn't want THAT to happen [even though... DUH, it can!]. Make it go away!" Deal with your "problems". And if you can't handle them, then deal with your hormones and zip up the pants.
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 10:23 AM

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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
How does that make sense? Someone couldn't keep it in their pants and so now you want to dish the responsibility off on someone else, just because they think that it's wrong? Though, I do think adoption is an excellent choice for unwanted pregnancies.
Someone couldn't keep their opinions to themselves so they voted for a law that will negatively affect the lives of others, and I'm calling on them to take responsibility for that. The responsibility argument works both ways. Illegal abortion will cause both unnecessary deaths and unwanted children. That is a direct consequence of your (addressed generally to pro-lifers) intentional action. What are you going to do to take responsibility for that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova View Post
I don't even understand what your point is... because, YES. Live with your actions (but that doesn't mean keep the child, as that may not be the responsible thing to do).

And by preaching pro-responsibility, I don't really mean pro-life (if your statement was aimed at me). While I'd certainly give the right to any rape victim or the like, I've actually seen another case where the responsible thing to do was abortion. And I'm not ignorant enough to know that a few more exceptions may exist.

But on a whole. I just feel like not wanting to go through an unwanted pregnancy is irresponsible and having the option to just "nip it in the bud" is a cop out. It's like "Oh no, I didn't want THAT to happen [even though... DUH, it can!]. Make it go away!" Deal with your "problems". And if you can't handle them, then deal with your hormones and zip up the pants.
I actually wasn't addressing you with my last post, but I'll happily reply. Actually I'll just quote Marguerite, since she basically summed up my opinion for me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marguerite
Honestly, when people say 'I think abortion should be illegal except when you are raped' it makes me want to throw things. It has to be the most ridiculous opinion on the topic, period.

If you think abortion is murder, then why would you be okay with 'murdering' a baby because of how it was concieved?

So you either think

1) Rape babies don't deserve to live.
2) Children should be a consequence.

Children should NOT, repeat NOT just be their to remind someone they are paying for having sex. I can't believe people actually think 'Well, you made your bed, lie in it' when it comes to this issue. A child is not a learning curb. It blows my mind that people think abortion should be illegal as children are a punishment for sex.
In addition to that, why do you look at it as a cop-out? In almost nothing else in society would you call a solution to a problem a "cop-out". "House caught on fire? Well, I guess you shouldn't have had a wooden house. Don't call fire control, that's just a cop out. You bought a wooden house; take responsibility for your actions." "Cut yourself making dinner? Don't go to the hospital; that's just a cop-out. If you're stupid enough to use metal knives for cooking then you can live with the consequences." "Fell off your horse? Too damn bad; you shouldn't have been riding a horse to begin with. Don't go to a doctor; take responsibility for your actions."

See how ridiculous it sounds? Unless you have a moral objection to abortion, there is no reason to call it a "cop-out" or "irresponsible". It's a solution to the problem of unwanted pregnancy. The idea that sex is all about making babies is and has been archaic for a long time, and the vague idea that abortion is "irresponsible" I think is just a remnant of that mindset. On the other hand if you do have a moral objection to abortion, make that your argument; at least then we'll have something to debate.

So, which'll it be?


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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 11:21 AM

pro choice.... its there body they can do whatever they want to it..
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 12:17 PM

ill make mine more complicated just to make people think.
Im Pro-lets not dump more unwanted kids into foster care.

i see more often the pro-life people want the baby to be born, BUT after the baby is born they could care less what happens to it.
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 02:42 PM

i'm pro-choice.
women shouldn't be forced to go through with unwanted pregnancies. their body, their choice.


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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 03:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
There are other options. I'm not saying you have to keep the child. But having an abortion is taking the easy way out when you should have had the common sense to know that pregnancy is always a possibility.

That's not exactly what I mean. Rape isn't really "having sex" how I meant it in my guideline. It's not consensual. It's abuse. And obviously those exceptions apply. Perhaps I should have expanded my original statement to say this.

Failed condoms and contraception. Well sorry, but sex was designed, first and foremost, to make babies. You can take the precautions (and that's great) to prevent it from happening, but if you don't want to deal with the possibility of pregnancy, albeit very slight... well, I stand by my original statement.
Well, the idea that an abortion is "the easy way out" seems to come from not really having talked to anyone who's had, or thought about, having an abortion before. It's an incredibly difficult decision for some people and they have to live with the stigma (and possibly guilt) for the rest of their lives. By saying, "well sorry honey, you've had sex so now deal with the consequences" (even though abortion is dealing the the consequences) you're dooming tens of thousands of women per year to permanent and serious injury or death simply based on nothing but your personal morals.

If you do not allow abortion you make very little difference to the rate at which it occurrs, you simply drive it underground. Legality makes very little difference to the rate of abortion and if it's going to happen anyway isn't it better that it take place in clean and proffesional situations? Prohibition has not worked in the case of drugs or alcohol and it is clear that it would not work for abortion either.

This issue is not simply one of morals it is also one of practicality and realism.

Last edited by Jack; August 21st 2010 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Typooooooo
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 08:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Xujhan View Post
Someone couldn't keep their opinions to themselves so they voted for a law that will negatively affect the lives of others, and I'm calling on them to take responsibility for that. The responsibility argument works both ways. Illegal abortion will cause both unnecessary deaths and unwanted children. That is a direct consequence of your (addressed generally to pro-lifers) intentional action. What are you going to do to take responsibility for that?
Actually, I don't think abortion should be illegal. It's going to happen regardless of what I say. And better it be done safely than in the underground. I was just stating my personal opinions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marguerite View Post
Honestly, when people say 'I think abortion should be illegal except when you are raped' it makes me want to throw things. It has to be the most ridiculous opinion on the topic, period.

If you think abortion is murder, then why would you be okay with 'murdering' a baby because of how it was concieved?

So you either think

1) Rape babies don't deserve to live.
2) Children should be a consequence.

Children should NOT, repeat NOT just be their to remind someone they are paying for having sex. I can't believe people actually think 'Well, you made your bed, lie in it' when it comes to this issue. A child is not a learning curb. It blows my mind that people think abortion should be illegal as children are a punishment for sex.
Well again: not illegal, just "unjust". But I oppose not from the "You're killing a baby!" standpoint. That's why I think the rape fetuses are an obvious exception. Having to endure 9 months of a reminder that you were abused, that'd the problem. But if you consensually had sex, it's always a possibility and selfishly aborting a potential human when others would give up a limb to be so lucky, but cannot.

Additionally, I've known some people who originally did not want their children (were considering abortion and/or adoption but once they were actually born, they decided to keep the child and they became the best thing that ever happened to them. Not saying this solution is for everyone. But unwanted pregnancies can have happy endings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xujhan View Post
In addition to that, why do you look at it as a cop-out? In almost nothing else in society would you call a solution to a problem a "cop-out". "House caught on fire? Well, I guess you shouldn't have had a wooden house. Don't call fire control, that's just a cop out. You bought a wooden house; take responsibility for your actions." "Cut yourself making dinner? Don't go to the hospital; that's just a cop-out. If you're stupid enough to use metal knives for cooking then you can live with the consequences." "Fell off your horse? Too damn bad; you shouldn't have been riding a horse to begin with. Don't go to a doctor; take responsibility for your actions."

See how ridiculous it sounds? Unless you have a moral objection to abortion, there is no reason to call it a "cop-out" or "irresponsible". It's a solution to the problem of unwanted pregnancy. The idea that sex is all about making babies is and has been archaic for a long time, and the vague idea that abortion is "irresponsible" I think is just a remnant of that mindset. On the other hand if you do have a moral objection to abortion, make that your argument; at least then we'll have something to debate.

So, which'll it be?

Wooden houses were not first and foremost made for burning. It can be an unexpected side-effect but pregnancy is not a side-effect, that's what it exists for: the continuation of mankind.

Those analogies are not really working for me. Because you're doing the responsible thing by tending to your mistake. Not "getting rid of" your mistake.

And sex isn't ALL about making babies. But it's what it was designed for. Sure it's can be good expression of love and it feels great. That only reinforces the sub-conscious desire to continue the human race and, in particular, for men to spread their seed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack View Post
Well, the idea that an abortion is "the easy way out" seems to come from not really having talked to anyone who's had, or thought about, having an abortion before. It's an incredibly difficult decision for some people and they have to live with the stigma (and possibly guilt) for the rest of their lives. By saying, "well sorry honey, you've had sex so now deal with the consequences" (even though abortion is dealing the the consequences) you're dooming tens of thousands of women per year to permanent and serious injury or death simply based on nothing but your personal morals.

If you do not allow abortion you make very little difference to the rate at which it occurrs, you simply drive it underground. Legality makes very little difference to the rate of abortion and if it's going to happen anyway isn't it better that it take place in clean and proffesional situations? Prohibition has not worked in the case of drugs or alcohol and it is clear that it would not work for abortion either.

This issue is not simply one of morals it is also one of practicality and realism.
I do know people who've had abortions. I've agreed with some decisions and disagreed with others. I know they'll have to live with that guilt for the rest of their lives, but I feel like aborting the fetus will actually cause more guilt. If you're able to give the fetus life and give that to someone who is unable to have children, some good can come of that.

And as I said up in the reply to Fletcher, I don't think abortion should be illegal.


-----------------------------


Sorry if those were messy responses. This reply was a little all over the place and I was interrupted in the middle so I may have lost my train of thought. And now I have to leave soon...

But I realize that in actuality there are children who go to foster care and are stuck in the system and that's no good. However, I guess I'm addressing my problem with this actuality. In my (more) ideal society, the number of unwanted pregnancies would be reduced and people would make smarter decisions before "mistakes" occur. Everyone who doesn't want a child would be responsible enough to take the necessary precautions to prevent it (contraception, and they'd learn how to use these methods the correct way, as to minimize the rate of failure). But many (not all) unwanted pregnancies (of the consensual sex variety) come from ill advised methods of contraception (pull out), not knowing how to effectively use proper methods, or just the lack of contraception all together. I understand people get hormonal, but that doesn't give anyone the exude to not think about the consequences.
   
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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 10:35 PM

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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
Well again: not illegal, just "unjust". But I oppose not from the "You're killing a baby!" standpoint. That's why I think the rape fetuses are an obvious exception. Having to endure 9 months of a reminder that you were abused, that'd the problem. But if you consensually had sex, it's always a possibility and selfishly aborting a potential human when others would give up a limb to be so lucky, but cannot.
If you don't think it's 'killing a baby', then why on earth do you oppose it?

Just because you want people to 'take responsibility'?

That's completely awful.


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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 10:36 PM

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Originally Posted by Elle. View Post
i'm pro-choice.
women shouldn't be forced to go through with unwanted pregnancies. their body, their choice.
This is me. However, I don't think it should be used repetitively.

Also, "you need to deal with the consequences of having sex", is immature and archaic if you ask me. Sometimes shit happens. Condoms break, pills fail, vasectomies don't hold, and rape happens.

Frankly, "deal with the consequences" sounds like it should be pared with "sex is icky."

Punishing the couple, and/or single mom with a child is unfair to the mother, and to society who in some cases will end up forking over the tax dollars to raise it.

To put it harshly, at our current place in time we are overpopulated.


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Re: Abortion - August 21st 2010, 10:49 PM

Don't really like abortion, but pro-choice. Woman's body, nobody should have control over what she chooses to do with it,
   
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Re: Abortion - August 22nd 2010, 01:41 AM

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Originally Posted by Nova View Post
*snipped for length; replying to all of it*
I'm sorry, I really just don't see how your argument makes sense. You don't think abortion is actually amoral, and you don't think it should be illegal, I get that. So abortion should be fine in some cases, the question is just which ones. That's where I lose track of you.

Do you think that abortion is okay if the couple used contraception responsibly but got pregnant anyway? If so, then aren't you just using children to punish people you deem irresponsible? If not, do you think couples who aren't ready for children should abstain from sex altogether? That essentially imposes no-sex-before-marriage on society, which I think is unconscionable.

I don't really follow your "design" argument, either. The human body evolved to do many things that we no longer do, and we do many things that we didn't evolve to do. Sex evolved at a means of reproduction, yes, millions and millions of years ago. Incisor teeth "were designed" for chewing meat; does that make vegetarians irresponsible for going against what parts of their body were "designed" to do? Not at all. We base modern morality on harm and good, not natural and unnatural.

I understand your wanting people to be responsible; that's obviously a good thing to want. I just don't understand what it is that makes you think abortion is irresponsible. Adoption is "getting rid" of your problem too, but you seem in favour of that. I'm sorry, your stance just makes no sense to me.

PS. Just as many wanted pregnancies have unhappy endings as unwanted pregnancies have happy endings. That people misjudge their circumstances isn't really an argument for anything.


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Re: Abortion - August 22nd 2010, 02:18 AM

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Originally Posted by Mr.sexyface View Post
Im Pro-lets not dump more unwanted kids into foster care.
i see more often the pro-life people want the baby to be born, BUT after the baby is born they could care less what happens to it.
Jeff, they aren't unwanted. You couldn't convince me for a single second that God created a miracle that nobody wanted. When you say that I think of my cousin Diana, who wants children that she conceived more then anything but she isn't able to get pregnant. Her and her husband, Mike, have adopted two albino boys from China, and they're working on getting their third. Three children, said to be unwanted, are part or are almost part of my family and we couldn't love them anymore then we already do.

I want the baby to be born, and I want the child to have a good life. You cannot say that pro-life supporters could care less to what happens to the child after he/she is born. Of course we care, a ton of us do. I could say that people who are pro-choice want the babies dead, but I know that it isn't true.

Did you guys know that only one in every one hundred abortions are extreme cases? Meaning that only one percent of all abortions are done because the mother was raped, or her life would be in danger should she have the child. Only one in every one hundred. Women need to stop using abortions as a birth control, they need to take the consequences of their actions.

I know about the mother's choice, but how many people stop to think about the child's rights? They may not be born yet, but no one could ever convince me that they aren't there. How horrible is our society to completely forget about those who could one day lead an army into battle? Every child that is aborted is never given that chance. It sickens me.
   
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Re: Abortion - August 22nd 2010, 02:27 AM

Quote:
And sex isn't ALL about making babies. But it's what it was designed for. Sure it's can be good expression of love and it feels great. That only reinforces the sub-conscious desire to continue the human race and, in particular, for men to spread their seed.
Well, I don't think anyone can say "this is what sex is for". Because how do any of us know? Yes, sex is necessary for reproduction. But sex is fun and pleasurable as well. It helps people connect. People who have sex regularly are less stressed and live longer. It has a lot of other benefits as well. The idea that 'sex is for making babies' is just one opinion.

As Fletcher said, we don't punish people for going against what is "natural". We don't punish people for driving cars instead of walking. We don't punish people for using medical treatments that aren't naturally occurring. We don't (or at least shouldn't) punish people for choosing same sex partners. And really, if you want to argue that "sex is for reproduction", then I suppose all homosexuals would have to not engage in sexual activities because they aren't doing it for reproduction?



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Re: Abortion - August 22nd 2010, 02:42 AM

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Originally Posted by midnight_daydreamer View Post
Did you guys know that only one in every one hundred abortions are extreme cases? Meaning that only one percent of all abortions are done because the mother was raped, or her life would be in danger should she have the child. Only one in every one hundred. Women need to stop using abortions as a birth control, they need to take the consequences of their actions.

I know about the mother's choice, but how many people stop to think about the child's rights? They may not be born yet, but no one could ever convince me that they aren't there. How horrible is our society to completely forget about those who could one day lead an army into battle? Every child that is aborted is never given that chance. It sickens me.
You cannot possibly know for certain that only one in one hundred abortions are extreme cases. Many women don't report being raped, so there is no way of knowing how many abortions are being had by women who are pregnant as a result of rape. Just because a woman is getting an abortion because she accidently got pregnant does not mean they are using abortion as birth control. They probably actually used birth control and if failed. And women that use abortion as birth control is one that has unprotected sex thinking that if they get pregnant they can just get an abortion, and then get one if they get pregnant. I believe there are VERY few women who are like that.

Sure a fetus has rights, but they are not the same as the rights of the mother. The rights of the mother overpower the rights of the fetus because a fetus is NOT on the same level as a person.

"How horrible is our society to completely forget about those who could one day lead an army into battle?"
Sorry but this made me laugh. First of all I certainly hope we won't need any future children to lead an army into battle. But also I could also say that they could also one day blow up a building, or rob a bank, or beat their children, etc.

It may sicken YOU, but just because that's your opinion doesn't mean that it should be enforced on everyone else. You don't like abortions, good don't get one, but leave everyone else to their own decisions and opinions.


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Re: Abortion - August 22nd 2010, 05:05 AM

Abortion is murder...


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Re: Abortion - August 22nd 2010, 05:12 AM

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Originally Posted by larami View Post
Abortion is murder...
And once again...

Merriam-Webster definition of Muder: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Yeah abortion doesn't really fit that now does it?


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Re: Abortion - August 22nd 2010, 05:19 AM

ITS THEIR CHOICE! who ever is the one preggas its their choice and only their choice no one really has the rights to tell the to keep it or not to keep it.
i personally wouldnt, unless i had to for health reasons.

but WTF why should other people tell you not to, its a hard descion in the first place they dont eed to be bullied into either way!


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Re: Abortion - August 22nd 2010, 05:37 AM

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Originally Posted by skylight View Post
I am pro life. If you have sex, then deal with the consequences. I feel like a unborn child has every right to life. If your raped, then i believe that you should have a choice.
I agree entirely with this. Even if the fetus isn't yet a person, it still has a future. In my eyes abortion would mean denying it of that.


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Re: Abortion - August 22nd 2010, 05:58 AM

I am pro choice, I reckon that if it were to be illegal, then its like saying people who were raped, and got pregnant have to keep this baby...and that child will grow up to find out that it came about by an illegal act. Thats just not fair. I think there are some instances where abortion is almost necessary for example in a rape situation. So I think it should be decriminalised...so legal, but discouraged, and parents who just 'forgot the contraception' should be highly discouraged from it...but still they should have the choice.
   
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