Abortion

[kiwi_fish_bunny]

oh i have an other point to add, if its illegal then there will be people having abortions in back allies, and woman getting killed while trying to get ride of the baby. like in dirty dancing, (i know refering to amovie isnt smart but its the only easy one i can think of )

[larami]

But seriously, the percentage of women that have abortions because of their convinience or the typical shit "I'm not ready to be a parent" is higher than those that were raped or in danger.

And just becuase it's legal doesn't mean it's right.

My 16 year old sister had an abortion becuase she couldn't keep her pants on, she's a murderer in my eyes.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by larami

But seriously, the percentage of women that have abortions because of their convinience or the typical shit "I'm not ready to be a parent" is higher than those that were raped or in danger.

And just becuase it's legal doesn't mean it's right.

My 16 year old sister had an abortion becuase she couldn't keep her pants on, she's a murderer in my eyes.

Well you're free to judge women who have abortions as much as you like. However you are not free to tell them what they can and can't do with their bodies based soley on what YOU think is right.

[Singing to the starlight]

Pro choice. We already have over population, and its not fair to bring a child into a world with parents that are not able to give it what it needs.

[Imagine]

Being pro life and all i do think abortion is murder.

I also want to say that i know a girl i went to high school with that has gotten 4 abortions. It does not bother her. abortion is not a form of birth control

[Loving Linux Penguin]

I'm honestly kind of in between. I think Abortion should be the choice of the mother and father. So...pro-choice I guess?

[kiwi_fish_bunny]

Originally Posted by larami

But seriously, the percentage of women that have abortions because of their convinience or the typical shit "I'm not ready to be a parent" is higher than those that were raped or in danger.

And just becuase it's legal doesn't mean it's right.

My 16 year old sister had an abortion becuase she couldn't keep her pants on, she's a murderer in my eyes.

so you would prefer someone to keep the baby if they are not able to look after it and let the babe starve to death? get beaten? or what about HEALth reasons? if the mother having this baby would mean she dies? yes that sounds a whole lot better....NOT!
if its legal it will go back to the old ways where the woman will go do it her self/ get killed having some one else try.

ITS HER CHOICE NOT ANY ONES ELSES!

[her_beautiful_mistake]

Originally Posted by larami

But seriously, the percentage of women that have abortions because of their convinience or the typical shit "I'm not ready to be a parent" is higher than those that were raped or in danger.

And just becuase it's legal doesn't mean it's right.

My 16 year old sister had an abortion becuase she couldn't keep her pants on, she's a murderer in my eyes.

It's so nice that you've been so supportive of your sister through what must be one of the most traumatic periods of her life

[Brandon]

I'm also in between. I think that abortion should remain legalized, but they should also be much more strict on the qualification of getting an abortion. No late-term abortions after such and such age, a limit on the number of abortions you can have in a five year period. Hell, maybe a psychological evaluation. I would understand one abortion if you've had a lot of sex in a five year period and, by chance, the condom breaks and/or your birth control fails. But after one or two abortions in a five year period, I would be kind of suspicious and start making some limitations. The more abortions, the less likely you're able to get another one.

[Imagine]

Originally Posted by Brandon

I'm also in between. I think that abortion should remain legalized, but they should also be much more strict on the qualification of getting an abortion. No late-term abortions after such and such age, a limit on the number of abortions you can have in a five year period. Hell, maybe a psychological evaluation. I would understand one abortion if you've had a lot of sex in a five year period and, by chance, the condom breaks and/or your birth control fails. But after one or two abortions in a five year period, I would be kind of suspicious and start making some limitations. The more abortions, the less likely you're able to get another one.

I agree on this. Very good point.

[TigerTank77]

Originally Posted by larami

But seriously, the percentage of women that have abortions because of their convinience or the typical shit "I'm not ready to be a parent" is higher than those that were raped or in danger.

And just becuase it's legal doesn't mean it's right.

My 16 year old sister had an abortion because she couldn't keep her pants on, she's a murderer in my eyes.

Wow.

Way to support your sister. I wish I had someone as supportive as you when I make a mistake.

/seething sarcasm

Seriously, how about a rational argument that isn't a massive "Holier than Thou" inquisition on sexuality?

I'll tell you what. We'll agree to ban abortion, and you agree to fund the child for the rest of it's life with your tax dollars. Deal?

[Singing to the starlight]

Originally Posted by skylight

I also want to say that i know a girl i went to high school with that has gotten 4 abortions. It does not bother her. abortion is not a form of birth control

Agreed!

Originally Posted by Brandon

I'm also in between. I think that abortion should remain legalized, but they should also be much more strict on the qualification of getting an abortion. No late-term abortions after such and such age, a limit on the number of abortions you can have in a five year period. Hell, maybe a psychological evaluation. I would understand one abortion if you've had a lot of sex in a five year period and, by chance, the condom breaks and/or your birth control fails. But after one or two abortions in a five year period, I would be kind of suspicious and start making some limitations. The more abortions, the less likely you're able to get another one.

I agree with the second part of this. Although I think the no late term abortions after a cirtain age is silly.

[Xujhan]

I have a question:

To everyone who think that abortions are okay and should be legal, but shouldn't be allowed to be used as "just another form of birth control", may I ask why? I hear this opinion a lot, and to me it's always seemed somewhat strange.

[TigerTank77]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

I have a question:

To everyone who think that abortions are okay and should be legal, but shouldn't be allowed to be used as "just another form of birth control", may I ask why? I hear this opinion a lot, and to me it's always seemed somewhat strange.

Honestly, while the debate over when something becomes human is still lively, in all essence it's still a life form of some kind.

The thing is, no one plans to have an abortion. But it should be there as a last resort.

Think of it as owning a gun. You should have the right to own a gun, but you shouldn't use it willy nilly in place of other things... especially contraception.

However, if abortion becomes as common as an oil change... well I weep for that day.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by Sitting on the shitter

I agree with the second part of this. Although I think the no late term abortions after a cirtain age is silly.

Silly? Uh...all right. Consider this: If you were in a situation where you had to choose to save a little girl or a grown woman, but not both, which would you choose? If you thought logically, you'd probably want to save the little girl because she is younger than the older woman. My viewpoint is the same way, except inverted. In my view, it's better to abort a fetus the younger it is. The older it gets, the more closer it gets to becoming a full-blown human being. It might not make much of a difference to you, but I think that women who are able to notice signs of pregnancy and start taking affirmative action immediately are more responsible than the women who finally realize it later on.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

I have a question:

To everyone who think that abortions are okay and should be legal, but shouldn't be allowed to be used as "just another form of birth control", may I ask why? I hear this opinion a lot, and to me it's always seemed somewhat strange.

Well first of all I thik that having continuous abortions performed on you would be damaging eventually. Also I think it's a complete abuse of the system. Abortion is not meant to be birth control, it's meant to be an option if birth control fails, or if it wasn't used for whatever reason. But I think that if a woman has unprotected sex thinking, well if I get pregnant then I can just terminate the pregnancy, then she's got some issues.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Brandon

Silly? Uh...all right. Consider this: If you were in a situation where you had to choose to save a little girl or a grown woman, but not both, which would you choose? If you thought logically, you'd probably want to save the little girl because she is younger than the older woman. My viewpoint is the same way, except inverted. In my view, it's better to abort a fetus the younger it is. The older it gets, the more closer it gets to becoming a full-blown human being. It might not make much of a difference to you, but I think that women who are able to notice signs of pregnancy and start taking affirmative action immediately are more responsible than the women who finally realize it later on.

I think that Hannah took your post in a different way, the same way I did. I thought you mean that there should be no late term abortions for women after the woman is a certain age, not the fetus. Which would be silly.

To your actual point, as far as I know late term abortions are only legal if continuing the pregnancy would cause harm to the mother.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

I think that Hannah took your post in a different way, the same way I did. I thought you mean that there should be no late term abortions for women after the woman is a certain age, not the fetus. Which would be silly.

To your actual point, as far as I know late term abortions are only legal if continuing the pregnancy would cause harm to the mother.

Oh yeah. Didn't think about that one. It's possible and yeah, that would be silly. Sorry for the misunderstanding if that's the case.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

Well first of all I thik that having continuous abortions performed on you would be damaging eventually. Also I think it's a complete abuse of the system. Abortion is not meant to be birth control, it's meant to be an option if birth control fails, or if it wasn't used for whatever reason. But I think that if a woman has unprotected sex thinking, well if I get pregnant then I can just terminate the pregnancy, then she's got some issues.

Absolutely agreed it's likely damaging for the woman, and whether it's abuse of the system or not depends mostly on whether abortions are funded by the state, and I do agree that that should factor into it somewhat.

Originally Posted by TigerTank

Honestly, while the debate over when something becomes human is still lively, in all essence it's still a life form of some kind.

The thing is, no one plans to have an abortion. But it should be there as a last resort.

Think of it as owning a gun. You should have the right to own a gun, but you shouldn't use it willy nilly in place of other things... especially contraception.

However, if abortion becomes as common as an oil change... well I weep for that day.

The gun thing is another debate, but you've both just made my point for me. Yes, it's a healthier choice to not undergo multiple abortions and yes, a fetus living material, but those aren't things you can build law around. If it were illegal to do things that were bad for your health multiple abortions would only be one in a long line of things to get the boot. As for the fetus being technically living; then what's the difference between three women having an abortion and one woman having three?

The other point you mentioned, "no one plans to have an abortion;" probably close to true. I've certainly never met anyone with the mindset of "I'll have a whole bunch of unsafe sex and just get however many abortions I need." Frankly, the mindset is ridiculous and yes, it's unhealthy. But the answer to that isn't law, it's education. Don't make it illegal for people to make bad decisions; teach them to make good ones.

</soapbox>

[kiwi_fish_bunny]

education can only go so far tho really ay? i mean its drummed into us at school SAFE SEX!SAFE SEX!SAFE SEX! but then still people dont pay full attention, their upbringing, friends. Abortions shouldnt be used as contraception no, nor should it be used unless needed i think.

[losing touch.]

Originally Posted by skylight

Being pro life and all i do think abortion is murder.

I also want to say that i know a girl i went to high school with that has gotten 4 abortions. It does not bother her. abortion is not a form of birth control

i do agree that abortion shouldn't be used as a form of birth control. women/girls who are getting numerous abortions should really re-think their contraception method(s).. or lack of.

although abortion is legal and therefore not murder.

[MisplacedDreamer]

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

Frankly, "deal with the consequences" sounds like it should be pared with "sex is icky."

I almost said that saying that those who said sex is for procreation so the woman should deal with the consequences (my opinion: in the matter that aligns with the poster's interpretation of the word consequences) sounds like they have a childish mindset because sex is used with the intent of recreationally, not procreationally. I took it out because I figured it was rude. Then I read your paragraph and was amused enough to throw it back in.

The thing that annoys me is when people try to say that having an abortion is not accepting consequences. Those people need to look up consequences. Any action is accepting consequences of being pregnant. The only one a person can argue is not accepting consequences is when a mother dumps a baby in a dumpster.

As for saying it should be legal only in the cases of rape, then how would you prove rape? Rape is drastically under-reported. It also is adding another traumatizing step for the woman to take.

I think it should be legal for any circumstance for any age. There should be a meeting at the most an hour before the drugs or pre-surgery antibiotics are given and there be an interview of what is going to happen. Women aren't stupid and they shouldn't be treated some delicate creature who can't make up their own mind.

I am not saying that some women won't regret it or aren't forced to do it, but there is little people can do to help those women in those situations. You can't identify the women who will regret it or those who have someone threatening them. You can ask the questions "Do you feel safe?" that they ask at all ER visits, gynecological procedures (in my state), and I think even regular doctor appointments, but if they don't say "yes" to that question, they probably won't ever say yes.

Even if a person is in a similar position as the woman who is pregnant, it is not the same and it no one should tell the woman not to have an abortion. It is an individual decision and it needs to remain that way. No one can walk even ten minutes in that person's shoes and the situation is still different.

Edit:
I find it highly unethical for someone to try and say that parents who want to adopt should be a factor in the debate. A woman is not a baby-factory and she should not be forced to carry to term so another couple could have the baby. It may be selfish on her part, but so would any law saying she has to give up a baby for adoption instead of aborting it. It's a no-win situation.

Another note, don't try to add heroics to an unborn child. He or she may cure cancer. He or she may lead an army into the battle. He or she may end up killing millions of people simply because of race or where they were born. The chances of them being great are as strong as them being evil. Most likely, they would be someone that no one would notice if they were gone because there are groups behind both the good and evil things usually. Very rarely is there just one person that makes it happen, but it's easier for history to remember just one name than the entire group.

Edit Again:
We all know exceptions and I doubt that people have four abortions by the time they are in high school. If she has had four abortions, then she must be lucky not to be in horrible pain each time and I wouldn't want her to be a mother anyway because she probably wouldn't follow proper prenatal care. People are idiots who sit there and say that abortion should be made illegal because some people get a lot of abortions. Yeah, I insulted people in a debate, but I don't think that people follow that argument all the way through. Do you want those people to actually have the responsibility of having prenatal care and not doing other activities that may harm the baby like drinking or smoking?

Adding more limitations also makes no sense like I said before. All it does is adding hurdles for someone and adding mental stress. I personally don't enjoy the thought of torturing women who already made up their mind. There was a support thread recently where the girl was extremely stressed out because of all the hurdles she had to go through. It's not an easy decision and it should be made as stress-free as possible.

Silly? Uh...all right. Consider this: If you were in a situation where you had to choose to save a little girl or a grown woman, but not both, which would you choose? If you thought logically, you'd probably want to save the little girl because she is younger than the older woman. My viewpoint is the same way, except inverted. In my view, it's better to abort a fetus the younger it is. The older it gets, the more closer it gets to becoming a full-blown human being. It might not make much of a difference to you, but I think that women who are able to notice signs of pregnancy and start taking affirmative action immediately are more responsible than the women who finally realize it later on.

Your argument is not logical, it is based on emotion. Logically, it would be better to save the older woman because of the cost of raising a child. She is already likely to be a productive member of society (she works) and already outlived many childhood diseases. The now-baby (since it was born) may die depending on how developed it is or contract some kind of disease and die in early childhood. The medical care that went to its' expenses were wasted as the young child contributed little if anything to society on a whole whereas the woman would have been paying taxes. (I know, taking part of the quote out of context as you don't think that. Just saying that it's not logical to save the girl.)

By the way, I really doubt people have five abortions before they are out of high school. Some people don't feel pain, but from what I understand, it's quite a painful experience regardless of pill or surgical form.

A cell is technically living. A plant is technically living. My cat has higher brain functioning than fetus (feti?) do when they are aborted. Technically living is not a legal argument. If you want to go the medical living definition, a heart beat isn't considered the only sign of life anymore thanks to advance technology. I have to do recitative efforts as long as there aren't signs like rigor mortis or pooling of the blood or cold to the touch.

[larami]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

Well you're free to judge women who have abortions as much as you like. However you are not free to tell them what they can and can't do with their bodies based soley on what YOU think is right.

Exactly, I can say whatever I want about them and it's not going to make a difference they will do it anyway.

It's wrong in my eyes end of the story.

Originally Posted by kiwi_fish_bunny

so you would prefer someone to keep the baby if they are not able to look after it and let the babe starve to death? get beaten? or what about HEALth reasons? if the mother having this baby would mean she dies? yes that sounds a whole lot better....NOT!
if its legal it will go back to the old ways where the woman will go do it her self/ get killed having some one else try.

ITS HER CHOICE NOT ANY ONES ELSES!

There's something called adoption, I don't know um I think they call it adoption : ).
I agree with abortion in cases of rape and endangerment of the mother. Did I said otherwise?? No. I just said that the women that abort becuase they can't or want to take care of the baby.

Originally Posted by her_beautiful_mistake

It's so nice that you've been so supportive of your sister through what must be one of the most traumatic periods of her life

It's not like I walk around and tell her "Henriette you're an effin murderer" No I don't we don't even talk about it anymore but I don't agree with her. She does whatever she wants and doesn't care about the consequences. Ugh, she can do whatever she wants with her life I love her but that doesn't mean that I agree with everything she does. Tough Love.

Originally Posted by TigerTank77

Wow.

Way to support your sister. I wish I had someone as supportive as you when I make a mistake.

Yep, I'm a great sister aren't I? Gosh, what do you want me to say "Way to go sister, you did the right thing becuase afterall you are just a child yourself and you didn't know what you were doing" NO NO NO NO.

As I said before, I love her but I'm not going to praise her mistakes.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by larami

I agree with abortion in cases of rape and endangerment of the mother. Did I said otherwise?? No. I just said that the women that abort becuase they can't or want to take care of the baby.

Please refer to

Originally Posted by MisplacedDreamer

As for saying it should be legal only in the cases of rape, then how would you prove rape? Rape is drastically under-reported. It also is adding another traumatizing step for the woman to take.

I mean really if we made it so that women could only get abortions if they were raped and they had to have a police report to prove it that would cause IMMENSE problems. First of all as said rape is under-reported forcing a woman to go through that justso she doesn't have to be saddled with a constant reminder of that rape, is just cruel. Also women may start falsly reporting rapes just so they can get an abortion, and wth rape being a he said she said circumstance in so many cases that wouldn't help things much AT ALL!

[MisplacedDreamer]

Adoption isn't really an alternative for abortion. I will probably have to adopt when I am older and I wouldn't want it on my conscious that the child I adopted was because some woman was forced to carry to term. Not to mention all the health concerns I would have about the child such as whether or not the mother used drugs during the pregnancy or if the child would be born with a treatable disorder.

Another issue is the cost. Some states will help pay for the cost of childcare for low income women, but what if the women don't qualify? It's recommended that women have checkups, prenatal vitamins (some places do give them out for free, but I think those programs were now replaced with the diabetic drug program in my area), delivering, time off if it was a risky delivery or pregnancy, and more.

A second issue is what if the mother does not want the child to ever find her? Some women are very concerned about the laws changing to allow the children to find them (some places no longer have anonymous sperm donation so adoption isn't far off). Some people don't want the risk of having an adult crying on their steps years later demanding to know why. Especially if the baby was a rape baby.

Some people feel it is not accepting consequences if they adopt out the baby more than if they had an abortion. They want to be involved in the child's life. There is open adoption, but some States (not sure about the rest of the world as adoption law is tricky enough here) do not recognize open adoption as a legal, binding adoption. What they do is just see that the adoptive parents legally adopted the child so the birth mother has no rights.

Then, on the other hand, the mother may not want to get attached to the baby because she knows she can't afford to raise the baby but she knows she can't give it up when the time comes. As cold as it may sound, love doesn't buy diapers, cribs, clothing, car seats, food, bottles, vaccinations, well-check ups, toys, and more. They also may not want to rely on handouts.

Adoption is a hell of a lot more complicated than what people are thinking.

It is damn near impossible to get abortion stats since those are self-reported. However, usually more women who are past their teens get the majority of abortions. They also have children at home.

From here: http://www.womenscenter.com/abortion_stats.html
(I can dig up the email to find out where he had his sources if people want it.)

Teenagers obtain only 17%. Women who are 20-24 years old obtain 33% of abortions. Interesting to consider so these are women who are typically in college or starting careers. About 60% are obtained by women who have 1 or more children.

Also, did you consider the stigma of adoption? It's kinda hard to carry to 9 months and have no one notice. At least with abortion, no one will find out in the work or friends if you don't tell them. People judge in almost all circumstances since they clearly know someone else's life better.

[Allons-y!]

The only thing I have to say (this time around) on this topic is that it is far easier to say "This is right and this is wrong" when you are not staring such a huge decision right in the face.

[dr2005]

I've stated my opinions on abortion more than enough times over the last five years and see no real need to go into detail about them again (pro-life unless mother's life in danger). I also feel the constant resurrection of the debate is getting a bit long in the tooth if I'm honest, but at the same time I respect the fact that people's views change and develop at time goes on so I can understand why it keeps reappearing. My contribution to the thread will be limited to posing two theoreticals which I would be grateful for responses to, particularly from the pro-choice camp.

1) One of the points raised in the pro-choice arguments is that people should have the choice to do with their own bodies what they wish. To that end, would it be similarly considered acceptable to remove the age restrictions on alcohol, cigarettes and drugs and advertising for such products on the grounds that people should be allowed to do with their own bodies what they wish?

2) Fletcher raised an interesting point regarding those who deem abortion okay and acceptable but wish to see it not being used as "just another form of birth control", and one which generally I share the same view on (albeit from the other side of the fence ). On a slight tangent to this, would people's view of the acceptability of abortion be affected by how much the girl/woman seeking abortion had used other methods of birth control?

I stress that these are not meant as snide comments or to poke holes in arguments - it's more for my own interest, and because I think they are interesting elements to the debate. That said, if it's deemed too off-topic feel free to ignore them.

[her_beautiful_mistake]

1) That's not the singular reason why I support having the option of abortion, the issue is not that simplistic. However I do fully support the legalisation of drugs.

2) "Should not be used as contraception" also doesn't really sum up my views on people who repeatedly have abortions. I think that if a woman is repeatedly becoming pregnant with an unwanted baby serious questions should be asked about her contraception and this woman should be strongly encouraged to have semi-perminant contraception inserted such as the coil or the implant (neither of which have room for user error). I don't know how ethical it would be to say to a woman after their Nth abortion "if you do not have the implant/coil put in now, you will not be given a free abortion should you become pregnant again" but it would be something to consider. Psychological intervention should also be considered for women who have had many abortions.

[her_beautiful_mistake]

I think it is absolutely fine for someone to disagree with abortion and to not make that decision for themselves. I think it would be very wrong for that person to make that decision for another person. If I were to get pregnant now it would completely fuck up my life, no exaggeration, despite this I would probably decide now to keep the baby. But I would 100% support any friend of mine who decided to have an abortion, no matter what their reasoning, because that would be their decision to make.

Abortion needs to be legal out of necessity. This does not mean you need to choose to have an abortion. It means that the option is there for people who require it. Making abortion illegal would be sentencing thousands of women to death.

For all those who do not support abortion because "life begins at conception" -- how can you support the use of the morning after pill? Most morning after pills prevent implantation of an already fertilised egg. In your book this means a life has been destroyed.

[MisplacedDreamer]

1) One of the points raised in the pro-choice arguments is that people should have the choice to do with their own bodies what they wish. To that end, would it be similarly considered acceptable to remove the age restrictions on alcohol, cigarettes and drugs and advertising for such products on the grounds that people should be allowed to do with their own bodies what they wish?

Key is that the pregnant teenager will become legally responsible for her health decisions and the health decisions of a baby within 8 to 9 months. Not many people mature that quickly in around 9 months. So I don't recommend lowering the ages for other drugs. In case you don't understand, supporting a medical procedure doesn't mean I support minors putting addictive substances into their bodies.

And yes, I think that a minor is more mentally mature to make a decision like abortion than to not get addicted to alcohol, pain killers, or cigarettes.

Not to mention that some of the "she should be able to do what she wants with her body" arguments also tend to encompass adults and those people I don't care if they put substances into their body.

2) Fletcher raised an interesting point regarding those who deem abortion okay and acceptable but wish to see it not being used as "just another form of birth control", and one which generally I share the same view on (albeit from the other side of the fence ). On a slight tangent to this, would people's view of the acceptability of abortion be affected by how much the girl/woman seeking abortion had used other methods of birth control?

And this is where I call people idiots for not supporting the usage of abortion as a form of birth control. Would you really want that girl who has five abortions to be responsible for taking care of herself during prenatal care if she can't stop getting pregnant?

I stress that these are not meant as snide comments or to poke holes in arguments - it's more for my own interest, and because I think they are interesting elements to the debate. That said, if it's deemed too off-topic feel free to ignore them.

I'd enjoy it if you did poke any holes in anything as it helps to reinforce one's beliefs.

People do mistakenly call the morning after pill the abortion pill. A support thread recently had three or four users telling the user asking info on the abortion pill telling the questioner that it was the morning after pill she was talking about.

[haveXhope]

Pro-life, hands down.

I believe that abortion is murder. The heart beats 18 (correct me, if I'm wrong) days from conception. And you usually find out you're pregnant after that 18 days is up. So if the heart is beating, it is indeed a human being. Therefore, it's murder.

But if it's medically needed, then I believe it's a different story.

[niente_]

I believe you should have the choice is you were raped or if contraception failed - e.g. you used a condom but it broke.

If not, then I'm against it. You had sex, and you got pregnant. Tough. I hate people who have unprotected sex then just get an abortion. Those people have no hearts in my opinion.

[Hallelujah]

I'm never sure on this one. I've always leaned towards pro-life simply because to me, abortion is taking away a life that was entirely due to your making - there's no babies without sex, so there's always a risk and people know that. I think everyone should have the chance to life.

But at the same time, I look at the children I see on the news living in awful poverty somewhere, and think how unlucky they are to be born into such an awful life. I know people work hard to improve things for them, but some kids are born into worlds where their parents are abusive and unloving - and no one should have to suffer that, especially not a child.

I still cant help but feel that abortion is wrong because it's the termination of an innocent life, but at the same time I understand that some people just cannot handle children, and in some cases it's maybe a better option. If it was me, I would keep it, and work around it. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I ever had more kids after abortion - simply because what made them any more special than that first baby?

To be honest, I'm pro-life and pro-choice. For me, it's pro-life, but everyone is entitled to their own decisions.

[dr2005]

Originally Posted by MisplacedDreamer

In case you don't understand, supporting a medical procedure doesn't mean I support minors putting addictive substances into their bodies.

Never implied that was the case. It was more a question of at what stage people deem someone to be capable of making different kinds of decisions regarding their health and lifestyle choices, as there seems to be a divergence between when they are deemed mature enough to take decisions regarding their sexual health and when they are deemed mature enough to take decisions regarding alcohol etc. To my mind the distinction, when the right to do what they like with their bodies is in play, does seem somewhat artificial. I suppose it was a rather oblique way of seeing what other factors people bring into play as I've always found the "their own body" argument a bit wanting.

Originally Posted by MisplacedDreamer

And this is where I call people idiots for not supporting the usage of abortion as a form of birth control. Would you really want that girl who has five abortions to be responsible for taking care of herself during prenatal care if she can't stop getting pregnant?

I think in such situations the problem is a bit more fundamental than whether they can take care of themselves during prenatal care - that sounds more like a total breakdown in sex education and all the abortions in the world will not address that. If she's ending up in such situations with that level of frequency then issues of parental fitness and the need for social services to get involved become more prominent for me than whether abortion should be classed as birth control.

Originally Posted by MisplacedDreamer

I'd enjoy it if you did poke any holes in anything as it helps to reinforce one's beliefs.

If people would like me to go to town and poke holes in the arguments I'll happily oblige - it'll put 3 years of legal training to good use if nothing else. It was more that I could see how what I wrote could come across as being snide when it was not intended to be.

[Acheron]

Originally Posted by niente_

I believe you should have the choice is you were raped or if contraception failed - e.g. you used a condom but it broke.

If not, then I'm against it. You had sex, and you got pregnant. Tough. I hate people who have unprotected sex then just get an abortion. Those people have no hearts in my opinion.

So what, you want to inflict an unwanted baby on them as punishment?

[kiwi_fish_bunny]

Originally Posted by Allons-y!

The only thing I have to say (this time around) on this topic is that it is far easier to say "This is right and this is wrong" when you are not staring such a huge decision right in the face.

bloody good point there mate!

[Ghost On The Highway]

I'm pro-choice, but I also have no moral compass to speak of . I don't see how one can argue that abortion is not taking a human life and is not morally wrong. Of course, I also support population control, and view abortion as the lesser of two evils, the other being overpopulation and its consequences. And it's stereotypical and awful to say so, but I think it's best to start with those who'll never have a chance anyway -- any parent who would consider an abortion would make a shitty parent anyhow.

[Ghost On The Highway]

Originally Posted by Acheron

So what, you want to inflict an unwanted baby on them as punishment?

Trust me, it's the baby that's being punished.

[MisplacedDreamer]

Originally Posted by haveXhope

Pro-life, hands down.

I believe that abortion is murder. The heart beats 18 (correct me, if I'm wrong) days from conception. And you usually find out you're pregnant after that 18 days is up. So if the heart is beating, it is indeed a human being. Therefore, it's murder.

But if it's medically needed, then I believe it's a different story.

Heartbeat does not mean that there is any higher functioning in the brain. Sustaining a heartbeat isn't even considered a medical basis for being alive since people can have pacemakers inserted or the person can be brain dead.

I'm pro-choice, but I also have no moral compass to speak of . I don't see how one can argue that abortion is not taking a human life and is not morally wrong. Of course, I also support population control, and view abortion as the lesser of two evils, the other being overpopulation and its consequences. And it's stereotypical and awful to say so, but I think it's best to start with those who'll never have a chance anyway -- any parent who would consider an abortion would make a shitty parent anyhow.

Bolding mine. Exactly how did you come to that conclusion because it doesn't seem to be thought out.

Dr2005, if you want to try and poke holes in my belief, go ahead. My actual belief regarding abortion is that a potential person is not on the same level as the woman that is currently here. Forcing her to carry to term violates her reproductive rights.

Now, in the past people have mentioned how it is wrong that people are charged twice for murdering a pregnant woman or forcing her to have an abortion. In that case, I would argue that the woman did not intend to have an abortion so it would be violating her reproductive rights. Maybe not murder.

I am very much a believer in people doing what is right for them in their situation.

[Acheron]

Originally Posted by Ghost On The Highway

Trust me, it's the baby that's being punished.

Exactly. That's why I don't like her argument.