Abortion

[hopefaithlove]

Originally Posted by Rylan

I didn't mean to consider a child a consequence, I just meant that every child should have an equal chance to succedd no matter the outcome.

Not to be sarcastic or anything, but as for rape and etc, thats why they have adoptions/foster homes.

Abortions is just like murder, to terminate the life, the doctors must forcefully remove the baby, body part by body part. I'm sure no one want to die like that?

I agree with you here.

[Imagine]

Originally Posted by Rylan

I didn't mean to consider a child a consequence, I just meant that every child should have an equal chance to succedd no matter the outcome.

Not to be sarcastic or anything, but as for rape and etc, thats why they have adoptions/foster homes.

Abortions is just like murder, to terminate the life, the doctors must forcefully remove the baby, body part by body part. I'm sure no one want to die like that?

Been waiting for this. I agree.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by Rylan

Abortions is just like murder, to terminate the life, the doctors must forcefully remove the baby, body part by body part. I'm sure no one want to die like that?

Ok so I don't agree with you at all, considering an embyro/fetus is not a baby and also the type of abortion you are describing is late term abortion, and those are pretty much only legal when the mother's health is in danger.

However THANK YOU for saying that Abortion is LIKE murder, not equal to murder.

[Guile]

Abortion should only be legal when it was either a rape, unsafe for the mother to the point it poses a signifigant risk to her life, or the child will be born with severe disabilities or mutations.

[hopefaithlove]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

Ok so I don't agree with you at all, considering an embyro/fetus is not a baby and also the type of abortion you are describing is late term abortion, and those are pretty much only legal when the mother's health is in danger.

This is false. I've done the Pro-Life March in Washington D.C. and they have pictures of babies that are incredibly small (8-12 weeks) with their body parts all torn because they individually rip the body parts off.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by hopefaithlove

This is false. I've done the Pro-Life March in Washington D.C. and they have pictures of babies that are incredibly small (8-12 weeks) with their body parts all torn because they individually rip the body parts off.

How do you know they are 8-12 weeks. All of the pictures I've ever seen admit that they are abortions done after the 12 week permitted period, which means they are most likely abortions performed because of health risks to the mother or deadly defects found in the fetus.

[Quartet]

I don't want a debate or an argument, but being a female that's aborted before I thought I'd reply because of my own experience with it.

I used to be very much for pro-choice and I still am in certain cases i.e. the mothers health, rape cases, etc. I am now pro-life. The abortion I went through was not only the most painful experience I'd ever endured (I wasn't able to pick up the painkillers in time-- I had a medical abortion, not a surgical), but also the worst emotional experience. I don't know how some women go through a willing abortion and not feel guild/sadness/regret... you literally killed a part of yourself and someone you cared enough to sleep with. It hurt me and I think about it everyday and hope that one day I can make amends in some fashion. Even though my boyfriend and I still talk about the reasons why it happened, we both are very, upset with the fact that it happened.

I would tell any pregnant woman to seriously reconsider an abortion, especially it if's just about not wanting a kid... because there are so many families that would love to take care of the baby you're not interested in taking care of.

Anyways, I'm sure there will be a couple people to have something against what I'm saying, but I just wanted to own up to the face that I've been there, and this is my PERSONAL opinion on abortion.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by hopefaithlove

This is false. I've done the Pro-Life March in Washington D.C. and they have pictures of babies that are incredibly small (8-12 weeks) with their body parts all torn because they individually rip the body parts off.

(Fake) shock images don't constitute a valid argument, and more often than not imply a lack of one. It doesn't actually matter at all what the fetus looks like, to either side of the argument. Valid pro-choice arguments still hold if the fetus looks like a baby, and valid pro-life arguments still hold if the fetus looks like a pile of goo. Stick to actual reasoning; all you accomplish otherwise is to make yourself look like an idiotic sensationalist.

[*weepingstar*]

let me just say, coming from someone that has been pro-life up until 2 months ago, no one, let me say it again, NO ONE can say abortion is really right or wrong till theyve been there, staring at a postive pregancy test, knowing that if the baby is carried to term it will have a horrible life because the parents, prob parent, the single mother, wont be able to provide the necessary means for an infant to live a full and healthy life. and it may very likley kill the teenage mother to try and carry it to term.
and i dare anyone to tell me any different.

[Cosmo]

<insert Xujhan's post here>

[Guile]

Originally Posted by *weepingstar*

let me just say, coming from someone that has been pro-life up until 2 months ago, no one, let me say it again, NO ONE can say abortion is really right or wrong till theyve been there, staring at a postive pregancy test, knowing that if the baby is carried to term it will have a horrible life because the parents, prob parent, the single mother, wont be able to provide the necessary means for an infant to live a full and healthy life. and it may very likley kill the teenage mother to try and carry it to term.
and i dare anyone to tell me any different.

Yes I can, I don't need to be tortured to say it's wrong, (although that is debatable ).

[hopefaithlove]

Wow, you two (Xujhan and Matthew) really need to be kind in a debate and not attack someone for their facts. I don't appreciate being called an "idiotic sensationalist" That's plain uncalled for.

[Casey.]

Hey guys, let's try not to attack each other okay. Debate the subject not the person, and keep the insults out. Please and thank you. :]

[Imagine]

Just something to think about: credit

*The heart starts beating between 18 and 25 days.
*Electrical brainwaves have been recorded at 43 days on an EEG.
*The brain and all body systems are present by 8 weeks and functioning a month later.
*At 8 weeks, the baby will wake and sleep, make a fist, suck his thumb, and get hiccups.
*At the end of 9 weeks, the baby has his own unique finger prints.
*At 11-12 weeks, the baby is sensative to heat, touch, light and noise. All body systems are working. He weighs about 28g and is 6-7.5 cm long.

Genesis 9:6 states that we are made in God's image and therefore our lives are precious and whoever takes the life of another human being, forfeits the right to his own life.
We are made by God; "For you created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb....Your eyes say my unformed body." Psalm 139:13-16 (cf: Is 44:24; Acts 17:24-25; Psalm 100:3; Job 10:8-12)

Okay that is all. its wrong in my eyes. everyone has a right to live

[hopefaithlove]

Originally Posted by skylight

Just something to think about: credit

*The heart starts beating between 18 and 25 days.
*Electrical brainwaves have been recorded at 43 days on an EEG.
*The brain and all body systems are present by 8 weeks and functioning a month later.
*At 8 weeks, the baby will wake and sleep, make a fist, suck his thumb, and get hiccups.
*At the end of 9 weeks, the baby has his own unique finger prints.
*At 11-12 weeks, the baby is sensative to heat, touch, light and noise. All body systems are working. He weighs about 28g and is 6-7.5 cm long.

Genesis 9:6 states that we are made in God's image and therefore our lives are precious and whoever takes the life of another human being, forfeits the right to his own life.
We are made by God; "For you created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb....Your eyes say my unformed body." Psalm 139:13-16 (cf: Is 44:24; Acts 17:24-25; Psalm 100:3; Job 10:8-12)

Okay that is all. its wrong in my eyes. everyone has a right to live

Thank you for posting, Angelina. As always, I agree.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Rylan

You should stop calling other people hypocrites and back up your facts.

Which facts do you want me to back up? I called someone a hypocrite and I explained why in several posts because the person wanted to know my reasoning for it.

Originally Posted by Rylan

Who are you to say that a fetus is not a living thing?. Do you actually know what your talking about? If a fetus is not a living organism, why dont you tell us what it's called?

Where are you reading from? I said fetuses are living humans but are not persons. Where did I say a fetus is not a living organism? I've looked through the posts I made in this thread and I cannot find any instance where I said this so show me where I said it. If you are confused about what a person is, then I made at least two posts on that and others also contributed to explaining the difference.

Originally Posted by Rylan

Can you prove your theory thats there testing going around for condoms?

When did I propose this theory? You must be using the commonsense definition of theory because I'm certain I never stated any scientific theory regarding this. But in any event, I do support the fact that condoms do undergo testing:

Study of various tests: http://journals.lww.com/stdjournal/F..._Condom.6.aspx

Optical testing of condoms: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10342085

Center for Disease Control's analysis on condoms: http://www.thebody.com/content/prev/art17039.html

Electronic and temperature testing over time: http://www.lifestyles.com/sexualhealth/CondomFacts.html

Originally Posted by Rylan

Have you every participated in a heated debate? If you did, you would know that you need to back your facts and don't call people names unless you have a valid excuse for ir

I have participated in heated debates and I backed up my reasoning for calling someone a hypocrite more than once. I don't quite see why it concerns you because the issue was resolved as best as it could be and was regarding someone else. Whether you think I had a valid excuse or not isn't something I care enough to get into a debate with you on.

If you've ever participated in a heated debate, you would know that you should give exact quotes of what someone has said and not accuse them of something they did not do.

Originally Posted by skylight

Just something to think about: credit

*The heart starts beating between 18 and 25 days.
*Electrical brainwaves have been recorded at 43 days on an EEG.
*The brain and all body systems are present by 8 weeks and functioning a month later.
*At 8 weeks, the baby will wake and sleep, make a fist, suck his thumb, and get hiccups.
*At the end of 9 weeks, the baby has his own unique finger prints.
*At 11-12 weeks, the baby is sensative to heat, touch, light and noise. All body systems are working. He weighs about 28g and is 6-7.5 cm long.

Genesis 9:6 states that we are made in God's image and therefore our lives are precious and whoever takes the life of another human being, forfeits the right to his own life.
We are made by God; "For you created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb....Your eyes say my unformed body." Psalm 139:13-16 (cf: Is 44:24; Acts 17:24-25; Psalm 100:3; Job 10:8-12)

Okay that is all. its wrong in my eyes. everyone has a right to live

According to Genesis 9:6, you agree that soldiers who kill enemies should forfeit their right to live even when it is done to protect their country? Police and other officers involved in shoot-outs should forfeit their lives despite the fact they were protecting civilians and society? A father who heroically defends his family of a wife and 3 children by shooting and killing the intruder who held them hostage should forfeit his life? You get the idea that this quote brings much into question when it is supported because you cant support it only in the issue of abortion but not support it in reference to any of the situations I listed.

[Guile]

Originally Posted by skylight

Just something to think about: credit

*The heart starts beating between 18 and 25 days.
*Electrical brainwaves have been recorded at 43 days on an EEG.
*The brain and all body systems are present by 8 weeks and functioning a month later.
*At 8 weeks, the baby will wake and sleep, make a fist, suck his thumb, and get hiccups.
*At the end of 9 weeks, the baby has his own unique finger prints.
*At 11-12 weeks, the baby is sensative to heat, touch, light and noise. All body systems are working. He weighs about 28g and is 6-7.5 cm long.

Genesis 9:6 states that we are made in God's image and therefore our lives are precious and whoever takes the life of another human being, forfeits the right to his own life.
We are made by God; "For you created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb....Your eyes say my unformed body." Psalm 139:13-16 (cf: Is 44:24; Acts 17:24-25; Psalm 100:3; Job 10:8-12)

Okay that is all. its wrong in my eyes. everyone has a right to live

Although I agree with most everything you said, I do not beleive everyone has a right to live. Some people shouldn't be alive, due to their crimes or issues.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by hopefaithlove

Wow, you two (Xujhan and Matthew) really need to be kind in a debate and not attack someone for their facts. I don't appreciate being called an "idiotic sensationalist" That's plain uncalled for.

I do not believe that anywhere in Xujhan's post he called you an "idiotic sensationalist". All he said was that if a person bases any argument over shock values, then they will come off as an idiotic sensationalist. The "you" in the original sentence, I believe, was general not personal. And even so all he said is that you would look like one, not that you were one.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by hopefaithlove

Wow, you two (Xujhan and Matthew) really need to be kind in a debate and not attack someone for their facts. I don't appreciate being called an "idiotic sensationalist" That's plain uncalled for.

Taylor's right on both counts. Sorry; I sometimes forget that wordings that are completely clear to me aren't always to everyone else. Reworded to be less vague, my last sentence could have read: "All anyone accomplishes by using shock images is making themselves look like an idiotic sensationalist." Wasn't aimed at you specifically. I see you around here plenty and I know you're smarter than that, but it's important to recognize that people who don't know you won't always be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. If you do try to use or support shock images in an argument that's also the image you're presenting of yourself, accurate or not.

Thanks for hopping to my defense, Taylor.

[*weepingstar*]

Originally Posted by Guile

Yes I can, I don't need to be tortured to say it's wrong, (although that is debatable ).

you have no idea what its like to be in that position. none at all. how can you judge someone who is at risk of losing there own life and the childs if they carry out the full term? how can you say that the child is better suffering in poverty than just to have not existed? thats not a call you can make.

[hopefaithlove]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

I do not believe that anywhere in Xujhan's post he called you an "idiotic sensationalist". All he said was that if a person bases any argument over shock values, then they will come off as an idiotic sensationalist. The "you" in the original sentence, I believe, was general not personal. And even so all he said is that you would look like one, not that you were one.

Casey said to focus on the topic. This has nothing to do with you.

[Quartet]

Honestly, I think this thread has gone on too long.
I know there are many sides to this particular issue, but we're tearing at each others throats to get our opion heard.

I think we can all admit that what we feel is based on our own experiences and emotions or maybe your religion, whatever it may be... No one in their right mind would want to "murder" anything or anyone. I think it is harsh that there are individuals trying to make someone feel guilty for a choice they felt they had to make. Some regret it, some feel it was the right thing to do, some of you would never in your life consider it. Okay. That's fine. That is your personal opinion.

I really think we should be more gentle with this subject matter.

[dr2005]

Originally Posted by missomellow

Honestly, I think this thread has gone on too long.
I know there are many sides to this particular issue, but we're tearing at each others throats to get our opion heard.

I think we can all admit that what we feel is based on our own experiences and emotions or maybe your religion, whatever it may be... No one in their right mind would want to "murder" anything or anyone. I think it is harsh that there are individuals trying to make someone feel guilty for a choice they felt they had to make. Some regret it, some feel it was the right thing to do, some of you would never in your life consider it. Okay. That's fine. That is your personal opinion.

I really think we should be more gentle with this subject matter.

Seconded. Whatever our individual stances on abortion are (in my case against), we should strive to keep any discussion as civil as possible. I know the Internet isn't always great shakes at that, but we should try nevertheless.

Unless there's anything new that anyone would like to bring the table, I'd be in favour of letting this thread close for now. There'll be another one not that far down the line if past history is anything to go by.

[Lugez]

Originally Posted by missomellow

Some regret it, some feel it was the right thing to do, some of you would never in your life consider it. Okay. That's fine. That is your personal opinion.

I really think we should be more gentle with this subject matter.

But then what's the point of our opinion? The reason we hold opinions is because we think our opinions are the correct ones. So, we defend them. But we have to do it in a clear and respective manner, which this thread hasn't done in some places..

But what it seems to have come down to is: Is the fetus/embryo a person? Which is something that pro life and pro choice can't agree on.

Not much else I can add.

[Quartet]

Originally Posted by Lugez

But then what's the point of our opinion? The reason we hold opinions is because we think our opinions are the correct ones. So, we defend them. But we have to do it in a clear and respective manner, which this thread hasn't done in some places..

But what it seems to have come down to is: Is the fetus/embryo a person? Which is something that pro life and pro choice can't agree on.

Not much else I can add.

That is exactly why I think this thread should just be put down, because it is simply a matter of our individual opinions. And generally these sort of debates are going to get out of hand because there is so much emotion behind the idea.

Anyways, I think its fine for everyone to have an opinion, I think I stated that, I just think its gone a bit far in this particular thread. Unless people can talk about their opinions in a more gentle manner.

This is a very sensitive subject and it's hard to talk about without being overly defensive.

[thebigmole]

Originally Posted by hopefaithlove

Casey said to focus on the topic. This has nothing to do with you.

Well that was rude.

I agree with the last two posts. I find one problem with the pro-life arguments, and it's not their beliefs at all. The only problem is that they seem to miss that this argument is one based on opinions and personal beliefs more than facts, and that opinions and beliefs are PERSONAL and no one person has the right to force their beliefs on another.

[Quartet]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

Well that was rude.

I agree with the last two posts. I find one problem with the pro-life arguments, and it's not their beliefs at all. The only problem is that they seem to miss that this argument is one based on opinions and personal beliefs more than facts, and that opinions and beliefs are PERSONAL and no one person has the right to force their beliefs on another.

Agreed 100%

[Guile]

Originally Posted by *weepingstar*

you have no idea what its like to be in that position. none at all. how can you judge someone who is at risk of losing there own life and the childs if they carry out the full term? how can you say that the child is better suffering in poverty than just to have not existed? thats not a call you can make.

So you're saying that it would be better to not exist then to be in poverty? I'll let the UN know at their next breif and we'll nuke Africa, South America, and most of Asia, thanks for reminding me of that :P

[Brandon]

I don't think there's a lot of points to cover in abortion debates. Abortion debates usually last a pretty long time, but then eventually people start saying the same thing and then it starts becoming personal. Because if you have no other points, what next? It's almost like people want to break down and have a bra and panties match (which I would fully support for women, by the way) until they convince the other person that they're right and you're wrong.

[Imagine]

Yeah thats why i usually stop posting. REGARDLESS even when were 100 years old, abortion debates are still going to be going on. Their going to be no different. Same arguments, same points. People will always be at each others throats because of their personal views on the matter. Lol

[Pelios]

Originally Posted by skylight

Yeah thats why i usually stop posting. REGARDLESS even when were 100 years old, abortion debates are still going to be going on. Their going to be no different. Same arguments, same points. People will always be at each others throats because of their person views on the matter. Lol

This. It's not like people are going to change their point of view of abortion because of this thread regardless if you try to disagree with them on every point they make.

[MisplacedDreamer]

Originally Posted by thebigmole

How do you know they are 8-12 weeks. All of the pictures I've ever seen admit that they are abortions done after the 12 week permitted period, which means they are most likely abortions performed because of health risks to the mother or deadly defects found in the fetus.

Some won't admit where they even got the pictures throwing the creditability into question. Considering how small fetus can be, it also seems like it would
be a lot of work to try and remove it by body part.

Yes I can, I don't need to be tortured to say it's wrong, (although that is debatable ).

Actually, psychologically, she or he is right. You can't positively say how you would react in a given situation. It's like slavery. Everyone would initially think that they would constantly try to run away and never give up if they were enslaved, but then why were there countless Africans enslaved who ended up living in slavery and never escaped or died trying to escape?

*The heart starts beating between 18 and 25 days.
*Electrical brainwaves have been recorded at 43 days on an EEG.
*The brain and all body systems are present by 8 weeks and functioning a month later.
*At 8 weeks, the baby will wake and sleep, make a fist, suck his thumb, and get hiccups.
*At the end of 9 weeks, the baby has his own unique finger prints.
*At 11-12 weeks, the baby is sensative to heat, touch, light and noise. All body systems are working. He weighs about 28g and is 6-7.5 cm long.

Heart beat does not equate life. Someone can be deemed brain dead and still have brain stem functioning. Higher functioning of the brain is deemed the sign of life. As for all body systems functioning, they do not all function before 20 weeks. I hope that the baby isn't breathing in the womb and not to mention that the aveoli would collapse if the baby was born before a certain time frame. I am curious to know more about the EEG but I am having issues finding the actual location of the quote on the page.

I would have responded to Wowsaidsomethingsmart or something earlier, but the moderator has stepped in and I had to take a break due to a heavy school load.. I will say that I disagree with the logic behind the claim.

[*weepingstar*]

Originally Posted by Guile

So you're saying that it would be better to not exist then to be in poverty? I'll let the UN know at their next breif and we'll nuke Africa, South America, and most of Asia, thanks for reminding me of that :P

you misinterpret my words. all i'm saying is that she should have the choice. i'm not pro-abortion, but i think it should always be an option in less than favorable circumstances