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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 06:01 PM

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/07...iately/?hpt=T2


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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 06:27 PM

As offensively racist as I might sound, good. I'm fed up of only seeing some peoples' eyes! Okay, I understand it is their religion (well I don't understand, but that's just religion that I don't understand) but if I'm honest, it's offensive for me to see these people completely covered from head to toe in what quite frankly looks to me like a bed sheet.

I know I might get yelled at for this, but I'm just stating my opinion and I'm glad that this public ban has been made, and I hope that in time it will come to more European counties including my own. Yes, it may offend some people who are within this religion, but I think it can be really suspicious to see only the eyes of someone, you have no idea what they could be hiding etc. Not to mention that it's not a very attractive sight.

But that is just my two cents. I'm ready for the uproar.



   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 06:28 PM

I disagree with the ban completely. I understood the ban in schools where dresscodes are in place (ban in airports would be okay too) but an overall ban? Absolutely ridiculous. Especially when you consider all the cultural problems France has had in the past. It's just further isolating a whole group of people. The whole ''they could be hiding anything!'' argument is quite frankly ridiculous. Anyone could hide anything under say a large coat or in a bag. And what's more, why would they be hiding anything? They're just normal people, not terrorists. It's pointless and unfair. What's next? Halloween masks?
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 07:03 PM

I personally disagree with it. they're not offensive and they aren't hurting anyone. I just don't see what's so wrong with them that they feel they can take away a person's choice to wear them.
I hate polo shirts. I don't see anyone starting a ban on them.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 07:06 PM

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Originally Posted by Rocketeer View Post
I personally disagree with it. they're not offensive and they aren't hurting anyone. I just don't see what's so wrong with them that they feel they can take away a person's choice to wear them.
I hate polo shirts. I don't see anyone starting a ban on them.
I'm not sure on my position, but the difference between a burqa and a polo shirt is that a burqa conceals identity.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 07:08 PM

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I'm not sure on my position, but the difference between a burqa and a polo shirt is that a burqa conceals identity.
I see people at Wal-Mart with their hair combed over their face to the point I have no idea what they look like. Nobody's banning long hair.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 07:11 PM

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I see people at Wal-Mart with their hair combed over their face to the point I have no idea what they look like. Nobody's banning long hair.
Police can ask someone to lift up their hair easily. If they tell someone with a burqa to take it off, they can get sued for religious discrimination VERY easily.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 07:15 PM

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Police can ask someone to lift up their hair easily. If they tell someone with a burqa to take it off, they can get sued for religious discrimination VERY easily.
That's true, but I still don't think it's right to take away someone's choice like that.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 07:30 PM

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Police can ask someone to lift up their hair easily. If they tell someone with a burqa to take it off, they can get sued for religious discrimination VERY easily.
Have the police ever been successfully sued for asking someone to remove Islamic headgear?
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 07:46 PM

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Have the police ever been successfully sued for asking someone to remove Islamic headgear?
Lots of times, they make the news quite a bit too. You just have to search around. You can get sued for pretty much anything these days. People have too much power.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 08:09 PM

The burqa is oppressive. It's been banned in Turkey and is discouraged in some other countries in that part of the world. For me, banning the burqa is a good women's rights move.

And to those who'd say "oh, but some women wear it willingly...".... I don't mean this condescendingly, but think about it more. Research it more.


   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 08:17 PM

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The burqa is oppressive. It's been banned in Turkey and is discouraged in some other countries in that part of the world. For me, banning the burqa is a good women's rights move.

And to those who'd say "oh, but some women wear it willingly...".... I don't mean this condescendingly, but think about it more. Research it more.
See, that's the thing about the ban. It is oppresive. Anything that takes away a choice is oppressive. You can't tell someone you're giving them freedom when you are so obviously taking it away.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 08:26 PM

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Lots of times, they make the news quite a bit too. You just have to search around. You can get sued for pretty much anything these days. People have too much power.
Really? Because searching Google, I didn't find anything relating to the police. Border Control can certainly ask people crossing the border to remove headscarfs for identification. At least one teacher has lost her employment tribunal case after being fired for refusing to remove her niqab (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/.../24/schools.uk). Sure, there have been a few Muslims who've gone to court over the veil. They just tend to lose.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 08:31 PM

I doubt this relates, but I know one lady who removed it when working with children because it scared them.



   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 09:23 PM

I hope the USA never bans burqas.
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 09:31 PM

I'm still not sure what side to take. What I will say though, is that people are far too sensitive to Islam.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 09:48 PM

It's really touchy waters. I think ultimately, France shouldn't have done it. I don't think USA can do it under the Constitution. It's not really the government's place to say what people can and can't wear. (Yes, I support nudity if that's what people want to do.)
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 09:59 PM

I agree that it would be unconstitutional for the US to adopt the same ban. (Even though I favor the ban in European countries and wherever else it's within the law).


   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 11:13 PM

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The burqa is oppressive. It's been banned in Turkey and is discouraged in some other countries in that part of the world. For me, banning the burqa is a good women's rights move.

And to those who'd say "oh, but some women wear it willingly...".... I don't mean this condescendingly, but think about it more. Research it more.
Actually a lot of women do wear it willingly. Have you ever actually asked a Muslim woman why she wears a burqa? A lot of them will tell you that they feel like it gives them power, it doesn't take it away. Saying that they don't ever wear it willingly is a bit like saying that girls who wear short skirts aren't doing so willingly; they're only doing it because of pressure from Western society.

Taking away a woman's right to choose what she wears is not a good women's rights move.



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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 11:17 PM

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Actually a lot of women do wear it willingly. Have you ever actually asked a Muslim woman why she wears a burqa? A lot of them will tell you that they feel like it gives them power, it doesn't take it away. Saying that they don't ever wear it willingly is a bit like saying that girls who wear short skirts aren't doing so willingly; they're only doing it because of pressure from Western society.

Taking away a woman's right to choose what she wears is not a good women's rights move.
Stop bringing gender into it. It has nothing to do with it. If men wore burqas too, they'd have to stop wearing them.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 7th 2010, 11:58 PM

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Stop bringing gender into it. It has nothing to do with it. If men wore burqas too, they'd have to stop wearing them.
Since I was responding to someone else's post, I'm interested to know how I'm the one who brought gender into it? But seriously, how can you not bring gender into the discussion? The main argument that the French raised for banning the burqa is that it is oppressive to women. They didn't ban it because it's "dangerous", they banned it because they felt it disagreed with their views of "gender equality". It has everything to do with gender.



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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 8th 2010, 01:26 AM

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As offensively racist as I might sound, good. I'm fed up of only seeing some peoples' eyes! Okay, I understand it is their religion (well I don't understand, but that's just religion that I don't understand) but if I'm honest, it's offensive for me to see these people completely covered from head to toe in what quite frankly looks to me like a bed sheet.

I know I might get yelled at for this, but I'm just stating my opinion and I'm glad that this public ban has been made, and I hope that in time it will come to more European counties including my own. Yes, it may offend some people who are within this religion, but I think it can be really suspicious to see only the eyes of someone, you have no idea what they could be hiding etc. Not to mention that it's not a very attractive sight.

But that is just my two cents. I'm ready for the uproar.

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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 8th 2010, 01:50 AM

I think France as a country has the right to make whatever laws they want to make. To be quite honest it makes perfect sense that they are banning it for security reasons.. Terror alerts have been cropping up like wild fire in European countries in the last few month's. That's not to say that only Muslim practitioners are capable of committing acts of terror, but that anyone can dress up in a burqa to hide themselves from security personnel. I know that in some private companies such as the theatre i work for you are not allowed to have anything covering your face. IE masks, veils etc.


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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 8th 2010, 02:59 AM

I have seen on two occasions people dressed up in a gorilla suit to shop at the retail store.

I think the best way to hide from people is to not make yourself seem obvious. A burqa can draw negative attention whereas hair dye, a hat, and a haircut works much better.
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 8th 2010, 06:02 AM

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Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie View Post
But seriously, how can you not bring gender into the discussion? The main argument that the French raised for banning the burqa is that it is oppressive to women. They didn't ban it because it's "dangerous", they banned it because they felt it disagreed with their views of "gender equality". It has everything to do with gender.
Yea I agree.

If they're wearing it willingly then that's fine by me. When they're made to wear them, that's when I like this law.
Overall, I like this law, but can see why lots of people don't so I'm not going to be rooting for North America to do this anytime soon.
When we go to their country we have to follow their rules, so if France wants to make this decision, well I don't see a problem with it.
If they don't like it, don't go to France.


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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 8th 2010, 06:05 AM

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Anything that takes away a choice is oppressive.
So is it oppressive to take away the choice of me killing everyone in the city? Or robbing the gas station? Eating children? (Tasty tasty children...)


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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 8th 2010, 12:37 PM

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So is it oppressive to take away the choice of me killing everyone in the city? Or robbing the gas station? Eating children? (Tasty tasty children...)
I was referring to more mundane choices, that don't involve hurting others.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 8th 2010, 03:23 PM

I'll say it again: They are not banning it to deliberately take away rights of women. If men were wearing them as well, they would be banned from wearing them as well.

The main reason WAS security. People are tired of not being able to see faces, of having no idea who they're talking to or what could be under their clothes.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 8th 2010, 11:29 PM

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I'll say it again: They are not banning it to deliberately take away rights of women. If men were wearing them as well, they would be banned from wearing them as well.

The main reason WAS security. People are tired of not being able to see faces, of having no idea who they're talking to or what could be under their clothes.
I'm sorry, but I think you are very much mistaken. Of all the news articles I've seen on this, I haven't seen a single one where the main reason for the ban is 'security'. Your article certainly didn't mention it, but if you have something to back up your claims that it's for security reasons?

From what I've seen, the French have been very clear that the reason for the ban is the fact that the burqa apparently conflicts with their values of gender equality:

http://www.theage.com.au/world/frenc...714-109uq.html

Quote:
Last week, Justice Minister Michele Alliot-Marie told politicians debating the bill that its adoption would assert French values and help to better integrate Muslim communities into the national way of life.

She said being forced to wear the niqab or the burqa "amounts to being cut off from society and rejecting the very spirit of the French republic that is founded on a desire to live together".

"At a time where our societies are becoming more global and complex, the French people are pondering the future of their nation. Our responsibility is to show vigilance and reaffirm our commonly-shared values," she said.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225826508079

Quote:
France's President Nicolas Sarkozy has been the most effective Western statesman on these issues. He gave an eloquent speech last year in which he rejected the burka and said it offends French values. This was not primarily because of the distance and separation the burka enforces between its wearer and the broader society. Rather, it was because of women's rights.



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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 8th 2010, 11:38 PM

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I was referring to more mundane choices, that don't involve hurting others.
The burqas do pose a threat to others, as they are a form of hiding your face. Not only that, but they cause unrest due to the fact that all the recent terror attacks have been committed by, Muslims, IE those who wear burqas.


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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 9th 2010, 01:27 AM

I think it's really strange. Like, really, to ban a piece of clothing? (Not to mention one of religious significance!) Though it was bound to happen in France eventually.

I, however, could care less if you wear something that covers everything but your eyes or something that just barely covers your "naughty bits." Wear what you want as long as it's decent. I don't care.

IMO: It's wrong to ban burqas.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 9th 2010, 01:59 AM

To whoever said it wasn't about security: what? That's one of the most important reasons, from what I can gather. I've not read an article about the burqa ban that didn't discuss security.

I know some women wear it willingly; that's not the point, IMHO. It is still too often used to oppress women, and though preventing the women who want to wear it from doing so (especially if they feel it empowers them) is unfortunate, it's a sacrifice that should be made to the broader cause of women's rights and empowerment. Burqas are too often used to hide signs of domestic abuse, and things like that, and it's still a symbol of inferiority/ men asserting their power over women for A LOT of people. It's just a net loss for women, I think.

But even if the only issue at stake were security, I think that'd be enough reason to ban it.


   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 9th 2010, 02:17 AM

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The burqas do pose a threat to others, as they are a form of hiding your face. Not only that, but they cause unrest due to the fact that all the recent terror attacks have been committed by, Muslims, IE those who wear burqas.
Hiding your face doesn't hurt or threaten anyone. The fact that some people are scared of burqas is due to their own insecurities and lack of knowledge about Islam, not because the burqa is particularly scary. Besides of which, there are a lot of things more scary and dangerous than burqas, like guns and cars, but I don't see anyone banning them.

Also, ALL recent terrorist attacks have been committed by Muslims? I suppose the Real IRA attacks in Ireland, the attacks in Turkey by Kurdish groups, and the MEND attacks in Nigeria don't count?

Most terror attacks are committed by men as well; I suppose we should all be irrationally scared of men and ban them in public spaces as well?


Quote:
To whoever said it wasn't about security: what? That's one of the most important reasons, from what I can gather. I've not read an article about the burqa ban that didn't discuss security.
Then show me an article where the French government has said that it is because of security.

Quote:
I know some women wear it willingly; that's not the point, IMHO. It is still too often used to oppress women, and though preventing the women who want to wear it from doing so (especially if they feel it empowers them) is unfortunate, it's a sacrifice that should be made to the broader cause of women's rights and empowerment. Burqas are too often used to hide signs of domestic abuse, and things like that, and it's still a symbol of inferiority/ men asserting their power over women for A LOT of people. It's just a net loss for women, I think.
So taking away women's rights is a sacrifice that must be made in order to support women's rights? That doesn't even make sense. Women should be allowed to choose what they wish to wear. I fully support the law against people forcing others to wear the burqa, but I do not support taking away a woman's right to choose.

A lot of parents force their children to go to Church and be raised as Christians. Should teaching your children to follow your faith be banned as well because it takes away a child's choice?



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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 9th 2010, 02:57 AM

I believe that everyone should follow the laws of the country you are living in regardless of your religious beliefs. Wearing the burqa is not a Muslim requirement it is cultural it is not mandatory because if it was about religion why do Muslim men not cover their faces? Also just to mention from what I understand the law does not ban the burqa specifically, it bans all form of public dissimulation of anyone's face.


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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 9th 2010, 06:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie View Post

Most terror attacks are committed by men as well; I suppose we should all be irrationally scared of men and ban them in public spaces as well?
Women haven't joined groups like Al-Qaeda because they're not fit enough to join.
   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 9th 2010, 08:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie View Post

Hiding your face doesn't hurt or threaten anyone.
Hiding your face is a security risk and makes it harder to identify you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie View Post

The fact that some people are scared of burqas is due to their own insecurities and lack of knowledge about Islam, not because the burqa is particularly scary.
No, we're scared because of something close to this.




Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie View Post

Besides of which, there are a lot of things more scary and dangerous than burqas, like guns and cars, but I don't see anyone banning them.
Guns are used for defense, hunting, and provide valuable jobs for citizens (manufacture, transport, etc.)

Cars fuel the economy, and keep many people employed, plus I'd like to see someone try and haul all of our freight across the country on their back...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie View Post

Also, ALL recent terrorist attacks have been committed by Muslims? I suppose the Real IRA attacks in Ireland, the attacks in Turkey by Kurdish groups, and the MEND attacks in Nigeria don't count?
"Irish Republican Army
Active - March 1922–December 1969"

"Provisional Irish Republican Army
1969–1997 (formal end to the armed campaign was declared in 2005)"

Total Casualties by IRA = Roughly 1,800


1997-1922 = 75 years active

1800/75= 24 Casualties a year

The modern knock-offs are a joke.

Total number killed in 9/11 attacks - 2,819
Soldiers killed in Operation Iraqi Freedom - 4,743
Total Killed = 7,562

2010-2001 = 9 Years

7562/9 = 840.2 Deaths a year

about 3500% More casualties per year due to Islamic terrorism then IRA activities.


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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 10th 2010, 02:51 AM

Quote:
So taking away women's rights is a sacrifice that must be made in order to support women's rights? That doesn't even make sense.
Actually, yes, it does. There are different levels. Which is more important, clothing choice (even with every religious connotation and personal import it might have) or freedom from male dominance (making it illegal to force women to wear it just. won't. work.)?

As to finding an article which references the government's concern for safety, this is the first one that came up when I googled it: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english201...c_13546185.htm . It's pretty explicit.
If that's not enough, here's the second article to come up when I googled it: http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.a...81474978581319 .
Here's the third, from CNN: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-10-07/w...il?_s=PM:WORLD .
I could go on...


   
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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 10th 2010, 05:42 AM

Quote:
Hiding your face is a security risk and makes it harder to identify you.
You haven't actually explained how that hurts anyone though. Sunglasses, hats, hair and a million other things also make it harder to identify you. Should we ban all those things too?

Quote:
"Irish Republican Army
Active - March 1922–December 1969"

"Provisional Irish Republican Army
1969–1997 (formal end to the armed campaign was declared in 2005)"

Total Casualties by IRA = Roughly 1,800


1997-1922 = 75 years active

1800/75= 24 Casualties a year

The modern knock-offs are a joke.

Total number killed in 9/11 attacks - 2,819
Soldiers killed in Operation Iraqi Freedom - 4,743
Total Killed = 7,562

2010-2001 = 9 Years

7562/9 = 840.2 Deaths a year

about 3500% More casualties per year due to Islamic terrorism then IRA activities.
US troops and their allies killed more than 20,000 Iraqi civilians in the war. And when the US Air Force dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima in 1945, between 70,000 and 80,000 people were killed instantly. Just counting those two attacks over 65 years, Americans have still killed more people per year than Islamic terrorist groups (90000/65 ~ 1400 deaths/year). People have far more reason to be scared of Americans than they do of Muslims.

Quote:
Actually, yes, it does. There are different levels. Which is more important, clothing choice (even with every religious connotation and personal import it might have) or freedom from male dominance (making it illegal to force women to wear it just. won't. work.)?
You are assuming that more Muslim women in France are forced to wear the burqa than those who choose to. But you don't seem to have any evidence to back that up. Also, you're assuming that Muslim women are going to stop wearing the burqa and be "liberated" because the law says so. Maybe all this will achieve is stopping 5000 women in France from ever leaving their homes again? Is that something you support?

Quote:
As to finding an article which references the government's concern for safety, this is the first one that came up when I googled it: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english201...c_13546185.htm . It's pretty explicit.
If that's not enough, here's the second article to come up when I googled it: http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.a...81474978581319 .
Here's the third, from CNN: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-10-07/w...il?_s=PM:WORLD .
I could go on...
But you also notice how all those articles mostly talk about how they think it's oppressive to women and that's the main reason, right? Security is mentioned briefly at the start of each article, but that's it. The rest of the articles talk about values and equality. You and Matthew both said that the main reason is security which isn't true. They are banning the burqa, first and foremost, because they believe it disagrees with their values as a country. The security reasons are an extra bit that came into it later.



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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 10th 2010, 10:30 AM

I absolutely disagree with the ban.

I understand perhaps banning it in airports or other high security areas, but more or less I don't believe this security argument. It feels like a 'fringe argument' to me.

If I ask all of you who say it should be banned for security reasons what you think of Islam, my guess is you aren't going to say you don't mind it or are indifferent. As shown by that ridiculous use of the 9/11 picture, there is so much irrelevant stuff being bought into an argument about whether or not a piece of clothing should be banned. On that by the way, since when were the 9/11 terrorists wearing Burqas??

I mean, why is it a security threat?

If it's that people could hide things under it, yeah? You can also hide things in a backpack or under an oversized sweatshirt.

If it's that you could hide your identiy while you commit crime, again, you could do that with a balaklava or a pillow case or by wrapping a blanket around your head. Where are all these criminals in Burqas anyway? Until someone can show me that there is actual reason to be worried about it, I'm not going to be.

People just use that argument as it's more 'PC'.

As for opression, it's funny that people trying to take away people's choice are talking about opression. Why is saying 'You can't wear something' any better than 'you must wear something'?

Women CHOOSE to wear this. Just because we wouldn't want to or don't understand why they would, doesn't mean they are forced into it. And yes, you could say being raised in a culture where that is the norm, perhaps it's not a 'choice', but I would say to you that's pretty much like every religion ever.


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Re: France Bans Burqas - October 10th 2010, 11:13 AM

I think it's a good thing to be honest, I don't believe there religion actually requires them to wear one does it? So where is the problem on religion based ground...

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