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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 01:23 PM

What do you think about it? Is it ever justified, what should we do about it, what are some alternatives?
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 01:43 PM

Quote:
What do you think about it?
It hurts the artist and the industry.

Quote:
Is it ever justified
I find it hard to justify piracy. I have heard bands say "Download our album, and if you like it, please go pay for it and support us." which I suppose sorta justifies it at first...

Quote:
What should we do about it
Stop it.

Quote:
What are some alternatives?
Spend money when buying music.




   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 01:51 PM

I'm going to play the devils advocate here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snufkin View Post

It hurts the artist and the industry.


Artists receive very little money per album copy, and as a digital download doesn't cost the band anything, they do not lose sales. If anything, they gain more popularity and more attention, so more people will buy their album.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snufkin View Post
I find it hard to justify piracy. I have heard bands say "Download our album, and if you like it, please go pay for it and support us." which I suppose sorta justifies it at first...
It's one of the most successful tactics in the industry at the moment, especially for new bands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snufkin View Post
Stop it.
How, and who would benefit other than the huge record companies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snufkin View Post
Spend money when buying music.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snufkin View Post
The prices are relatively high. £1 for a song? And if I want to buy an album, £10? For one album? I find it hard to believe that anyone's going to pay that amount of money with the money problems the world is facing at the moment.

Again, I'm just acting as devils advocate here, but I'd like to hear your response.
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 01:59 PM

Honestly, I very rarely pay for music. The only time I buy a song or album is if I can't find it anywhere for free. The X factor songs for example are 99p each O____O that's ridiculous, I'm sure X Factor earn enough money without selling live songs for 99p each. The only time I pay for a song I could easily find online for free is if it's for charity.


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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 02:12 PM

Acknowledging that all of the below were said as devil's advocate, my responses are as follows:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
Artists receive very little money per album copy, and as a digital download doesn't cost the band anything, they do not lose sales. If anything, they gain more popularity and more attention, so more people will buy their album.

Airplay is no guarantee of sales - far from it. I've lost count of how many songs I've listened to on the radio, and often quite liked, yet not gone on to buy the album. That may just be me being chronically lazy in that regard or just taking advantage of the medium of radio, but my argument would be that if someone can download a song or album for free, they are unlikely to see the logic in paying for it. Indeed, that appears to be the most common response when people are asked why they download pirated music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
It's one of the most successful tactics in the industry at the moment, especially for new bands.

The only bands I am aware of who successfully utilise this approach are ones like Radiohead, who are established artists and (as they readily admitted) can afford to take the hit if people don't pay much. There may be more that have done it that I'm not aware of, but financially it's not a sustainable approach and ultimately artists need to make money to be viable. Sad but true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
How, and who would benefit other than the huge record companies?

A number of approaches could be taken were the will there to do so. Examples:
  • Make it a criminal offence to host pirated material or content created without the source's consent, and impose heavy fines or bandwidth restrictions on file-sharing sites (e.g. BitTorrent et al) which violate this requirement.
  • Give national regulators the right to block sites which continually host pirated material (e.g. The Pirate Bay) and remove jurisdictional barriers which may prevent action being taken.
  • Drop the price of material on sites such as iTunes considerably to make it more viable for customers (e.g. cap of 40p per song or £5 per album or something along those lines).
  • Allow artists to run special offers on their material to encourage sales and make the price look like better value (e.g. 3 songs for the price of 2, free demo track or material, special previews etc.).
Not an exhaustive list but you get the idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
The prices are relatively high. £1 for a song? And if I want to buy an album, £10? For one album? I find it hard to believe that anyone's going to pay that amount of money with the money problems the world is facing at the moment.
Agree, and see above comment. Market forces should apply to the music and entertainment industries as much as any other, and setting much more realistic prices would be a massive step forward in battling piracy.


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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
  • Make it a criminal offence to host pirated material or content created without the source's consent, and impose heavy fines or bandwidth restrictions on file-sharing sites (e.g. BitTorrent et al) which violate this requirement.
  • Give national regulators the right to block sites which continually host pirated material (e.g. The Pirate Bay) and remove jurisdictional barriers which may prevent action being taken.
  • Drop the price of material on sites such as iTunes considerably to make it more viable for customers (e.g. cap of 40p per song or £5 per album or something along those lines).
  • Allow artists to run special offers on their material to encourage sales and make the price look like better value (e.g. 3 songs for the price of 2, free demo track or material, special previews etc.).
Not an exhaustive list but you get the idea.



Agree, and see above comment. Market forces should apply to the music and entertainment industries as much as any other, and setting much more realistic prices would be a massive step forward in battling piracy.
I disagree with being able to block websites on the basis that the web should be free and unregulated, however I agree the prices should be dropped for music. My opinion is that we should drop music prices by at least 50%, encourage purchasing of music and offer BETTER alternatives to things like Piratebay and Demonoid. After all, why pay £10 for an album when i can simply search it on TPB, click download and let it download? What are the benefits? A system of rewarding legitimate purchases rather than punishing illegitimate purchases is much more beneficial to the people.

If people think "Hmm. I could download the album for free, but if I pay £4.99 for it, I get (eg.) higher quality versions of songs, early access to tickets and unlimted redownloading of it. I think I'll pay for it!" then the music industry will flourish again. Unfortunately, as it is, it's dying because it's not moving with the times. Instead, it's trying to bring us all back to the past where you could only get music from your local shop.
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 02:57 PM

I can't really come up with a better answer than that. I'll reply anyway.

Quote:
Artists receive very little money per album copy, and as a digital download doesn't cost the band anything, they do not lose sales. If anything, they gain more popularity and more attention, so more people will buy their album.


You say artists receive little money per album copy, and then say hopefully they achieve more recognition so more people go buy the album. ?!. Artists make more money touring these days, I would expect.

Quote:
It's one of the most successful tactics in the industry at the moment, especially for new bands.


How is that proven? Who says it's successful? Radiohead are noted for it with In Rainbows, but yeah, they can afford it. They probably made all the money back touring the album. NIN and Reznor do it, but again, they can afford to. I know Innerpartysystem encouraged people to download their album and buy it if they like it (which I did), but they haven't exactly become successful from doing it. I'm curious as how doing this is in any way a good move.

Quote:
How, and who would benefit other than the huge record companies?


If you put money into the record companies, they will sign more artists, more people get the chance to have their music heard. The record labels are dying, and maybe that is the way forward, but you seem to think all the money goes to the label and nothing to the artist. I'm sure you think Lady Gaga is poor as well.

As for how, it's already illegal. I don't exactly want more surveillance online than there already is, but I can see it coming to that if that's what it takes.

Quote:
The prices are relatively high. £1 for a song? And if I want to buy an album, £10? For one album? I find it hard to believe that anyone's going to pay that amount of money with the money problems the world is facing at the moment.


For as long as I can remember, it has been £10 for an album. If you go on Amazon, it's probably even cheaper. I don't begrudge paying £10. It's your choice. To blame it on the financial climate is just shifting the blame - people would still download illegally even if the world was in a better place.





   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
What do you think about it?
I think it's being blown out of proportion by greedy music labels. Artists get most of their cash from gigs and touring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
Is it ever justified,
Ever borrowed a CD? Synced music from someone else's Itunes? Hell, listened to music on a radio station you didn't pay for, or stay to listen to 30 minutes of shitty commercials on? Congrats you're a thief in the RIAA's eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
what should we do about it,
Tell the god damn label companies "tough shit." With the internet what it is now adays, music label companies simply aren't needed as much anymore. They know it and we know it, so they've decided they're going to try and control the internet and take away our ownership of music through DRM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
what are some alternatives?
Download the music, send the money directly to the band via check or money order if it really bugs your conscience. AND DON'T GIVE ITUNES MONEY.

Anyone who doesn't have an authoritarian hand up their ass like a puppet knows that piracy is not harming anyone but record labels.


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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 04:35 PM

I agreed with you up until the technicality of "You're taking money away from them".
You're not. It costs nothing to distribute a digital copy of an album, so they lose no actual money by you pirating it. They gain your customs, your possible purchase, and the same from anyone who knows you.
I'm pretty mixed too tbh, but I stand by what I said in my earlier post.

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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 04:40 PM

It still costs to record the album in the first place. They need to earn that back somehow.




   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 05:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Snufkin View Post
It still costs to record the album in the first place. They need to earn that back somehow.
You're still fighting a losing battle in this tiny argument. If I download an album off of Pirate Bay, that doesn't cost the band anything. If I stole a CD, that would cost them something as it would cost money to produce and manufacture the physical CD.

Whether or not they need to make it back somehow is irrelevant to be blunt. Sure, if 100% of people pirated and didn't purchase the album, they would not earn money, but they would not LOSE money. They might lose POTENTIAL money.
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 05:13 PM

Well first of all, let me point out that Copyright's rules have some conflicts and things that don't make sense. You are allowed to sell your CDs to a used CD store. Well chances are just about everyone who does that keeps a copy on their computer, which would technically be "unauthorized copying", but nobody makes that illegal and it's not enforced. On the other hand, you're not supposed to share music with others, but you CAN donate it. Well...either way you're likely still keeping a copy. So if you can legally donate your CDs, there's no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to let people borrow them to make their own copy.

Regarding illegal downloading, i think THAT, especially on a large scale, is something that can be more easily monitored and it should be stopped.

Alternatives? There are free, LEGAL downloads available from sites like www.jamendo.com. Another option is to just pay for the darn CD. You can actually buy perfectly good CDs from used CD stores for pretty cheap (often $7 or less--which beats iTunes prices, btw)

Oh, and about the point that piracy doesn't really harm anyone but record labels...it's true. I've seen at least one artist on YouTube that has said "NEVER sign a contract with a record label. You will not see a dime" I don't doubt that.


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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 05:22 PM

Music is actually something that I rarely pirate. Not really because of any strong sense of morals or anything like that, but because I feel like it makes me appreciate the music less. I don't think I'd care as much about all my new music, or my music at all, if I could just go out and download 100,000 songs a day. I'd rather buy 3-4 albums a month so I can truly appreciate what I'm getting, if that makes sense. There are some bands that I like enough that I want to support them, but most of it is just because I don't want to devalue my music listening experience.

The only time I've ever pirated music is when either the site I bought it from effed me over and the music didn't download correctly. I'm not buying something twice just because they have a shitty backend, thank you very much. Also, if it's something obscure I literally can't find anywhere, I'll sometimes download it.

Now, movies and TV shows are a different story...


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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 05:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz Guy View Post
Well first of all, let me point out that Copyright's rules have some conflicts and things that don't make sense. You are allowed to sell your CDs to a used CD store. Well chances are just about everyone who does that keeps a copy on their computer, which would technically be "unauthorized copying", but nobody makes that illegal and it's not enforced. On the other hand, you're not supposed to share music with others, but you CAN donate it. Well...either way you're likely still keeping a copy. So if you can legally donate your CDs, there's no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to let people borrow them to make their own copy.

Regarding illegal downloading, i think THAT, especially on a large scale, is something that can be more easily monitored and it should be stopped.

Alternatives? There are free, LEGAL downloads available from sites like www.jamendo.com. Another option is to just pay for the darn CD. You can actually buy perfectly good CDs from used CD stores for pretty cheap (often $7 or less--which beats iTunes prices, btw)
Why should it be stopped, and how do you suppose you would do that?

Just saying "But the darn CD" is a null point. Why, you ask?

(devils advocate)
Because I don't want to. I don't want to buy the CD, and I don't want to pay £10 for the album. I'm going to pirate it for free. Stop me or tell me why I shouldn't. Because I'll hurt the record companies?

That's the problem. There's no reason why we should pay outrageous prices for albums other than to feed record companies so that they can charge more and get even more money. Artists make FAR more money from touring as most of it goes to them. I read somewhere that an artist earns about 5p for every 79p download.

As I stated before, the solution is simple. Reward legitimate purchases, don't punish illegal downloads. the example I used before is quite sound:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
Hmm. I could download the album for free, but if I pay £4.99 for it, I get (eg.) higher quality versions of songs, early access to tickets and unlimted redownloading of it. I think I'll pay for it!
Offer incentives to legitimate purchases that you can't get from illegal downloads. Oh and make prices cheaper, they're ridiculous at the moment.
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 05:27 PM

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Alternatives? There are free, LEGAL downloads available from sites like www.jamendo.com. Another option is to just pay for the darn CD. You can actually buy perfectly good CDs from used CD stores for pretty cheap (often $7 or less--which beats iTunes prices, btw)
Yeah, I love Jamendo. It's all indie stuff you've never heard of, but half the fun is searching through it for the hidden gems.

Another awesome site is eMusic. I would go into a rant about how they keep raising their prices so they can afford to get major record labels (i.e. full of poppy drivel I couldn't give a fuck less about Just stick to the smaller labels that have all the good metal on them.), but I'm guessing that's probably part of the reason a lot of you would be interested in them nowadays Anyway, they sell entire CDs for $4-$5 and individual songs as low as $.49. And if you're asking how I could be complaining about prices changes with prices that low, songs used to be the equivalent of about $.20 before they sold out.


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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 05:39 PM

Truth is that there is so much REALLY GOOD stuff available legally for free. You don't have to pirate anything to get good music.

I will agree with this though: It is REALLY stupid and wrong that record labels choose to take so much of the profit. The artists hardly earn anything. Why bother with record company contracts?


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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 05:43 PM

I swear I read something before that said Rihanna got so little money out of her record label she wasn't very well off at all (I think she may have changed label now) :/ I think they're the real thieves ¨___¨


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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 05:50 PM

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Truth is that there is so much REALLY GOOD stuff available legally for free. You don't have to pirate anything to get good music.

I will agree with this though: It is REALLY stupid and wrong that record labels choose to take so much of the profit. The artists hardly earn anything. Why bother with record company contracts?
There may be good stuff out there for free, but its not the stuff that people want. Its like this. If I want to get an August Burns Red album for free, I'm not going to be able to do that legally. Now you may say that I can get similar music for free from Jamendo etc., but it's not what I want. It's not the band I like, the production will probably be crap, and the band probably disbanded 6 months earlier.

Its settling for second place.
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 05:56 PM

What Cody said is also unbelievably true for me. I greatly prefer paying for my music (and I greatly prefer buying the CD as opposed to a legal digital download) because it just feels better.

Matthew, you're determined to argue a point that is much bigger than any of us in this thread. I can't tell you to pay for music, but I do, and I pay to go to gigs to support the bands I like. Some record labels undoubtedly screw their artist over, and examples of such are well documented. But that's not to say all are bad.

When it comes down to it, I pay because the artist deserves it. There's been a new trend lately in artists using a site where you can Pledge donations and you get rewards depending on how much you pay, and it goes straight to the band, which is pretty cool. Funeral for a Friend funded their latest EP with it, and Madina Lake used it to pay for their bassist's surgery.

And there's always Spotify.




   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 05:58 PM

Well if you really want "mainstream" stuff, go to a used CD store. If I understand the concept correctly, the record industry isn't really making money off those sales because they are being sold a SECOND time around.


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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 06:07 PM

Quote:
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What Cody said is also unbelievably true for me. I greatly prefer paying for my music (and I greatly prefer buying the CD as opposed to a legal digital download) because it just feels better.

Matthew, you're determined to argue a point that is much bigger than any of us in this thread. I can't tell you to pay for music, but I do, and I pay to go to gigs to support the bands I like. Some record labels undoubtedly screw their artist over, and examples of such are well documented. But that's not to say all are bad.

When it comes down to it, I pay because the artist deserves it. There's been a new trend lately in artists using a site where you can Pledge donations and you get rewards depending on how much you pay, and it goes straight to the band, which is pretty cool. Funeral for a Friend funded their latest EP with it, and Madina Lake used it to pay for their bassist's surgery.

And there's always Spotify.
I hardly pirate because I have Spotify. I'm just arguing the opposite side because I believe it's equally as valid.
I pay for music where I can because it feels better. Watching the download bar fill, then seeing your (pristine?) MP3 in iTunes just ready to be played is very rewarding.

I'm just saying that the music industry does have to change, and offered what I think is the way forward. Piracy is not the way forward, prosecuting pirates is not the way forward. Rewards and incentives are.
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 06:42 PM

I'm still unclear as to what "incentives" are being proposed exactly...


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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 07:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Jazz Guy View Post
I'm still unclear as to what "incentives" are being proposed exactly...
Oh come on, use logic. Early access to tickets, higher quality songs, demo songs, artwork, posters etc. I could go on. Offer people an incentive to not pirate, because at the moment there is none.
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 07:09 PM

I don't pay for music. And if I can get it for free with no problems, why should I give up my money?



   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 07:28 PM

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Originally Posted by taylalatbh. View Post
I don't pay for music. And if I can get it for free with no problems, why should I give up my money?
"I don't pay for food. And if I can shoplift it for free with no problems, why should I give up my money?"


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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 07:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
Oh come on, use logic. Early access to tickets, higher quality songs, demo songs, artwork, posters etc. I could go on. Offer people an incentive to not pirate, because at the moment there is none.
Oh come on, use logic. Artwork and posters costs more money. CDs have been £10 for as long as I can remember, stop complaining, it's not like they're going up in price. You can pay for a CD at £15 that might come with bonus stuff, because that bonus stuff also requires money from the artist. Go buy them, then.




   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 07:51 PM

I love pirating music to be honest, I'll buy the albums of artists I really like but I can't actually afford to buy the CD's produced I like, just not that much.
If music was cheaper I'd be more inclined to buy it, but as it is it's just too much.
But what's the going rate of a song to download at the moment? If we say 50p (correct me if I'm wrong) then I'd of had to of spent about £1500 on music, I don't have that much money.
Besides, if people want such a fun career they shouldn't expect to get loads of money. ¨.¨
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 08:47 PM

If it WAS cheaper, people would be more inclined to buy it and it would balance out.

An actual CD costs maybe around a quarter, or if it's a SUPER good quality large capacity CD maybe 50 cents or a dollar! That means the record companies are making more than $9 of profit on every CD in many cases (assuming it is a $10 CD). If you sold CDs for $5 or $4 or $3, it would mean more people would want to buy them because they'd be cheaper. So you'd be able to sell more of them and make the same amount of profit or more.

Just like with movie theaters. One of them nearby has a promotion that you get in for $5 every Tuesday. That means it attracts a lot more people because more people can afford $5 or want to pay $5 than people who can afford or want to pay $10 or whatever. So I'm sure Tuesdays are really profitable for them.


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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 09:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
I disagree with being able to block websites on the basis that the web should be free and unregulated
In that case, what incentive is there for such websites to play by the rules, or for consumers to stop downloading even with the incentives you and I both mentioned? As people have confirmed on here with their replies, if they can get a product of decent quality (which most rips are nowadays thanks to current media players) for free rather than pay for a higher quality version which is unlikely to be noticeably different, why should they pay? I can't blame them for following the first route, however much I dislike pirating and will say quite clearly it is illegal and damaging. I can however hold filesharing sites to account for what are pretty lax attitudes towards the whole issue, and if it takes hitting their bandwidth or pocket to bring the point home then I see no issue with that. We're not talking about censorship here exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTank77 View Post
I think it's being blown out of proportion by greedy music labels. Artists get most of their cash from gigs and touring.
I've heard this claim a few times without back-up, so first I'd say "source please" and then point both to U2's recent massive loss-making concert tour and the fact that putting on gigs and tours requires massive expenditure. Also the promoter and venue take a fair share of the ticket receipts, so it's not like it suddenly becomes a 100% profit venture for the artist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTank77 View Post
Ever borrowed a CD? Synced music from someone else's Itunes? Hell, listened to music on a radio station you didn't pay for, or stay to listen to 30 minutes of shitty commercials on? Congrats you're a thief in the RIAA's eyes.

Radio stations pay record companies royalties for playing their songs on the air, and the terms of their broadcasting licence cover both eventualities you mention. In the other two instances, someone will have paid for the tracks in both instances and will therefore have a valid justification for limited sharing under the "reasonable use" element of the licence they paid for. Which leads nicely into the next point...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTank77 View Post
Tell the god damn label companies "tough shit." With the internet what it is now adays, music label companies simply aren't needed as much anymore. They know it and we know it, so they've decided they're going to try and control the internet and take away our ownership of music through DRM.

Legal note: you do not own, and never have owned, music you buy in any format. The title for that music remains with the artist and the record company and is the basis for their royalty payments. You instead buy a licence to own a copy of the music for limited private use, and as with any legal transaction of that nature the licence can be revoked if you breach its terms. To therefore talk of "ownership of music" is inaccurate unless you are actually the artist who made the track or the record company they are contracted to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTank77 View Post
Download the music, send the money directly to the band via check or money order if it really bugs your conscience. AND DON'T GIVE ITUNES MONEY.

Anyone who doesn't have an authoritarian hand up their ass like a puppet knows that piracy is not harming anyone but record labels.
So if you remove the record companies, and therefore the official CDs and MP3 files from the market, where are you going to get the material for the downloads from? Very few artists are going to make entire albums freely available if their livelihood depends on it, and ultimately they're going to have to recoup their production costs (studio hire, equipment, website hosting and so on) somehow. This isn't a charitable venture after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
You're still fighting a losing battle in this tiny argument. If I download an album off of Pirate Bay, that doesn't cost the band anything. If I stole a CD, that would cost them something as it would cost money to produce and manufacture the physical CD.

Whether or not they need to make it back somehow is irrelevant to be blunt. Sure, if 100% of people pirated and didn't purchase the album, they would not earn money, but they would not LOSE money. They might lose POTENTIAL money.
Unless they make enough money from the sale of their records or other means, they will lose money by default as they will have to cover the production costs by other means. Simple economics. If you (plural not singular) download illegally, you reduce the likelihood of them selling sufficient quantities to break even and make a financial loss more likely. If they could make a comfortable living without needing to record music and sell it, don't you think they'd all be doing it by now?


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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: Music Piracy - November 28th 2010, 11:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
In that case, what incentive is there for such websites to play by the rules, or for consumers to stop downloading even with the incentives you and I both mentioned? As people have confirmed on here with their replies, if they can get a product of decent quality (which most rips are nowadays thanks to current media players) for free rather than pay for a higher quality version which is unlikely to be noticeably different, why should they pay? I can't blame them for following the first route, however much I dislike pirating and will say quite clearly it is illegal and damaging. I can however hold filesharing sites to account for what are pretty lax attitudes towards the whole issue, and if it takes hitting their bandwidth or pocket to bring the point home then I see no issue with that. We're not talking about censorship here exactly.
Sites don't have to play by the rules. They can offer their half-decent quality music, and people will continue to use it, like they always have. You're presuming it won't be noticeably different, whereas it would be more realistic to presume that it would be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
I've heard this claim a few times without back-up, so first I'd say "source please" and then point both to U2's recent massive loss-making concert tour and the fact that putting on gigs and tours requires massive expenditure. Also the promoter and venue take a fair share of the ticket receipts, so it's not like it suddenly becomes a 100% profit venture for the artist.
It's a well known fact, that you'll know if you've spent any length of time researching this topic. This turned up from a simple google search, explaining royalties and that artists make far more from concert tickets than from album sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
So if you remove the record companies, and therefore the official CDs and MP3 files from the market, where are you going to get the material for the downloads from? Very few artists are going to make entire albums freely available if their livelihood depends on it, and ultimately they're going to have to recoup their production costs (studio hire, equipment, website hosting and so on) somehow. This isn't a charitable venture after all.
Who said freely available? If we took record companies out of the equation, bands would still do pretty good. Of course we're not quite ready to move totally digital, but the record companies know that their time is limited. Once we do go fully digital, the record companies are pointless. Sites like MySpace, PureVolume and even iTunes or eMusic will be the kings then. They get paid on their own terms when you use the internet, and so they can value their album as little or as much as they want to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
Unless they make enough money from the sale of their records or other means, they will lose money by default as they will have to cover the production costs by other means. Simple economics. If you (plural not singular) download illegally, you reduce the likelihood of them selling sufficient quantities to break even and make a financial loss more likely. If they could make a comfortable living without needing to record music and sell it, don't you think they'd all be doing it by now?
Simple economics: My download of an MP3 file is not costing the record company anything. It may cost them one potential sale, but it also gives them about 20 potential sales including mine after listening to the album. You cannot say that loss of potential money = actual loss of money.
Even if they do not recuperate the cost it took to record the album, I still have not actually taken value from them, only potential value.
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 29th 2010, 12:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snufkin View Post
I greatly prefer paying for my music (and I greatly prefer buying the CD as opposed to a legal digital download) because it just feels better.
i agree here.
i love going out and buying a CD, knowing i will be getting a better quality listening from downloading it from some random site, and also i know i wont get a random virus from illegally downloading it
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 29th 2010, 01:33 AM

meh my favorite online downloading site was recently shut down (aka limewire)

i really dont think its wrong people purchase the cd if they want to share it with there friends then thats there choice and there allowed to do that... hell when i used to be into eminem id buy the new cd then rip it onto media player and download onto another cd and gave them to my friends

really it no different then the music videos on youtube..

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Re: Music Piracy - November 29th 2010, 02:13 AM

Frankly, I think it is very unfair that downloading music is illegal.
We have YouTube where we can listen to any song for free, so why can't we put it on our Ipods/laptops/MP3 players for free?
Being able to download music would not hurt the artists. They get tons of music from their clothing lines, concerts, etc. And die-hard fans would still want to buy the albums.
Also, I think that music is WAY overpriced. The prices on Itunes have raised and I am appalled by that. I DO NOT want to spend tons of money on music.
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Re: Music Piracy - November 29th 2010, 02:54 AM

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Originally Posted by Strawberries View Post
Frankly, I think it is very unfair that downloading music is illegal.
We have YouTube where we can listen to any song for free, so why can't we put it on our Ipods/laptops/MP3 players for free?
Being able to download music would not hurt the artists. They get tons of music from their clothing lines, concerts, etc. And die-hard fans would still want to buy the albums.
Also, I think that music is WAY overpriced. The prices on Itunes have raised and I am appalled by that. I DO NOT want to spend tons of money on music.

its illegal because its "stealing" and stealing is wrong

and to combat the "high pricing" of music maybe buy used cds from your local record store or pawn shop

plus when you buy it you know for sure your getting the best quality, and know there is less of a change your going to get a virus from downloading it illegally
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 29th 2010, 03:03 AM

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Originally Posted by Dave Mustaine View Post
its illegal because its "stealing" and stealing is wrong
Stealing= removing the original. Technically, sharing is stealing in this case. Music "Piracy" cannot be measured in black and white.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mustaine View Post
and know there is less of a change your going to get a virus from downloading it illegally
If you download smart, you wont get a virus. I never have, and I have about 4000+ songs, of which I've bought... 18.

Also, music files never come in .exe format


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Re: Music Piracy - November 29th 2010, 03:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mustaine View Post
its illegal because its "stealing" and stealing is wrong

and to combat the "high pricing" of music maybe buy used cds from your local record store or pawn shop

plus when you buy it you know for sure your getting the best quality, and know there is less of a change your going to get a virus from downloading it illegally
If it was legal, it wouldn't be called stealing.

That's still money though. I don't have a job or an unlimited supply of money. So I get stuck not getting the songs I want.

When I was younger, I downloaded music off the web until I got told that it was illegal. I never got a virus and the quality was always great.
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Re: Music Piracy - November 29th 2010, 03:19 AM

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Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
We're not talking about censorship here exactly.
We're talking about net neutrality, AND censorship. Look up ACTA. They want to make it so that you don't even have to be tried before they can take action against you. I.E- seize all of your property they deem "piracy liabilities"


Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
Legal note: you do not own, and never have owned, music you buy in any format. The title for that music remains with the artist and the record company and is the basis for their royalty payments. You instead buy a licence to own a copy of the music for limited private use, and as with any legal transaction of that nature the licence can be revoked if you breach its terms. To therefore talk of "ownership of music" is inaccurate unless you are actually the artist who made the track or the record company they are contracted to.
The problem with this, is that the music labels have this little thing called DRM. Which, at any time they want, they can change to suddenly make you a criminal.

So until they fix that and the buyer has actual rights, no, they do not deserve their "fair" share of the cash. Artists yes, labels no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
So if you remove the record companies, and therefore the official CDs and MP3 files from the market, where are you going to get the material for the downloads from? Very few artists are going to make entire albums freely available if their livelihood depends on it, and ultimately they're going to have to recoup their production costs (studio hire, equipment, website hosting and so on) somehow. This isn't a charitable venture after all.
More and more bands are setting up their own websites and doing their own PR, thanks to the internet. Some even go right to Itunes without signing onto a label. The argument I have is not against Artists, it's about labels. You're arguing that labels are important, when they are clearly obsolete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
Unless they make enough money from the sale of their records or other means, they will lose money by default as they will have to cover the production costs by other means. Simple economics. If you (plural not singular) download illegally, you reduce the likelihood of them selling sufficient quantities to break even and make a financial loss more likely. If they could make a comfortable living without needing to record music and sell it, don't you think they'd all be doing it by now?
Bands don't just sell CDs. They sell all sorts of stuff (see: "swag").

Also, this "piracy costs money" argument is ludicrous. Most people only pirate what they don't feel like paying money for. So the sales weren't going to be there anyway. By that logic, choosing not to buy a CD is the same as downloading it illegally.

Which means I've pirated every Little Wayne song ever. DO NOT WANT.


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Re: Music Piracy - November 29th 2010, 03:19 AM

well frankly i still like buying music, for one i know im getting good quality
and now a days most of the musicians i listen to dont have the labels so they profit from me buying there music so yea

to each his own i guess
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 29th 2010, 01:25 PM

I use Spotify to listen to music mostly and if I really enjoy a particular album I will then buy it. I refuse to buy from Itunes because it is just ridiculously over priced.

Illegally downloading music used to make me really angry. I would get random viruses and then half the songs I got were recordings of "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" on loop or it would be porn which got so annoying.
I just didn't find the hassle worth it. Also once when my computer broke the computer store refused to fix it because it had limewire on it...

The albums I buy lately are no more than £7 unless it has extras like a DVD. If there is an album I want and it is a new release or in the charts I will wait a couple of months and it usually halves in price. I also enjoy looking around CD stores for old CDs that are a couple of £.
   
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Re: Music Piracy - November 29th 2010, 03:06 PM

I very rarely get any problems when downloading free music. I've only had a warning on my anti-virus program once for an .mp3 file and that was just a minor threat. They're genuinely not bad quality either :/ Very rarely I may get "____.com" in the middle of songs but that's uncommon.


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