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Pro-Choice vs Pro-Abortion - December 10th 2010, 01:48 PM

Why do so many people assume people that are pro-choice are FOR abortion? Because although it can be seen that way, it really isn't. Like, I could be considered pro choice, but I'm not FOR abortion. I believe the woman (and the guy) should be able to choose what THEY think is best.

What do you other pro choice people think about this?



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Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Abortion - December 10th 2010, 01:58 PM

I'm sick of people assuming pro-choice means pro-abortion. No clue how many times I've attempted to explain the difference to my religion teacher
   
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Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Abortion - December 10th 2010, 02:40 PM

Because it's easy to vilify the other side in anger.
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Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Abortion - December 10th 2010, 04:14 PM

Yeah I absolutely hate the term Pro-abortion because it's completely wrong. I don't know one person who is out there saying, hey everyone abort your babies it's the right thing to do!


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Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Abortion - December 10th 2010, 04:56 PM

It's semantics and euphemism/exaggeration by both sides of the debate that's at the root of the problem really. Abortion is one of the few issues in life where the common positions of argument don't actually have anything to do with one's opinion on the fundamental question at hand: namely, whether you are in favour of or against legalised abortion. Those against legalised abortion deem themselves "pro-life" to make their position seem more worthy and villify those in favour of legalised abortion as being "anti-life"; likewise, those in favour of legalised abortion deem themselves "pro-choice" for the same reasons of worth and to villify the opposition as "anti-choice". The reality is both of those positions are nonsense and have no real bearing on the topic of abortion, and it would be much simpler if people did cut out the crap and say whether they are pro-abortion or anti-abortion.

I can see why some people would be uncomfortable being deemed "pro-abortion" given the connotations of that phrase; however, that is based solely on taking the concept to its most radical extreme. One can be in favour of something without advocating it in all forms or as a default action, or simply condone the option of it being available; indeed, condoning an action whether by yourself or others is tacit support for it. Again, though, it doesn't mean you particularly relish abortion if you hold that position - it just means, as has often been said, you support what you deem the "lesser of two evils". Likewise, someone who is anti-abortion could adopt a position of it being acceptable in certain circumstances without contradicting themselves, again under the mantle of "lesser of two evils". Terms such as "pro-choice" and "pro-life" just fudge the whole issue in my mind and are of themselves probably responsible for most of the vitriol and division in this area.

That's just my (rather longwinded) two cents, though, and I can understand completely why people wouldn't like to be called pro-abortion. I feel the problem is more with the use of the terminology than the actual terminology though.


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Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Abortion - December 10th 2010, 05:51 PM

It's a twist with words, that's for sure. Probably an attempted tactic at proving a point or something. I tend to agree with the OP. I consider myself pro-choice, but that doesn't mean that I encourage abortions.
   
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Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Abortion - December 10th 2010, 07:17 PM

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It's a twist with words, that's for sure. Probably an attempted tactic at proving a point or something. I tend to agree with the OP. I consider myself pro-choice, but that doesn't mean that I encourage abortions.
Would you accept the argument, though, that in taking the pro-choice line and supporting a woman's right to have an abortion within the protection of the law, there is some tacit support for the practice of abortion albeit in certain proscribed circumstances? I'm not going down the entrapment route here I hasten to add - I don't equate pro-choice with encouraging abortion in the first place - but I'm interested in how people react to that argument as that seems to be the ingrained definition of "pro-abortion", and I'm not sure how that's happened. I'm in favour of providing reconstructive surgery for burns victims for example but I'm not saying that everyone needs a facelift.

Sorry if this all sounds a bit random, but it's something that's bugged me for a while in this whole argument and...well, seemed as good a time as any to ask.


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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Abortion - December 10th 2010, 08:27 PM

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Would you accept the argument, though, that in taking the pro-choice line and supporting a woman's right to have an abortion within the protection of the law, there is some tacit support for the practice of abortion albeit in certain proscribed circumstances?
I don't represent the entire pro-choice population, of course, but I support the practice of abortion to a certain extent. Does that mean I encourage abortions? Heck no. As far as I know, making abortions illegal will not get rid of abortions -- it'll just encourage back yard abortions (and for the people who think the abortion process is bad now...just imagine the process for backyard abortions...yummy). So I'm all about pro-choice, making choices for legitimate reasons, but I don't support the women who have abortions like it's 50% off the original price. So I really just support the practice of safe/effective abortions with reasonable excuses -- not just "I'm not ready to raise a child" but more like "I used a method of contraceptive effectively, but ended up getting pregnant anyways. Or raped, or because the childbirth would kill the mother." Other than that, I don't think it's really a reasonable excuse to want to abort a child.
   
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Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Abortion - December 10th 2010, 08:52 PM

Honestly, it's the best of both worlds for people that are pro-life and pro-abortion. Since it is both of them combined, yet it's not. I consider myself pro-choice. I don't encourage abortion, I encourage the woman to decide whether or not she can take full responsibility of the child. Abortion is more of a last resort. If there's no way of putting the child up for adoption (and lets face just as many people are against adoption as abortion in some cases), and there's no way the woman can take care of the child (for instance they're homeless, unemployed, far too young, etc.). There's too many factors that need to be taken into considered when a woman is pregnant. I do admit that I am against people that get an abortion just because they want to from not practising safe sex out of their own carelessness. The laws regarding abortion need to be more strict than they are, to prevent things like that.

I'm not sure how much sense I make, though I'm not entirely sure which I am. Which is why I like to believe I'm pro-choice.
   
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Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Abortion - December 10th 2010, 09:28 PM

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I don't represent the entire pro-choice population, of course, but I support the practice of abortion to a certain extent. Does that mean I encourage abortions? Heck no.
As I said, I don't see it as a case of encouraging abortions - that to my mind is an inaccurate distortion of most people's perspectives, and one I find very frustrating when it arises. What I was addressing more was the view that pro-abortion as a position is automatically something detach themselves from, even if when placed in the context of the examples you use it's a valid position which is justifiable from an ethical perspective without opening the metaphorical floodgates. What I don't understand is why we cling onto meaningless tags such as "pro-choice" and "pro-life" in this debate - I've certainly yet to hear anyone call themselves "anti-choice" and "anti-life" which would be the logical counterpositions - instead of going for the crux of the matter, so to speak. Maybe it's just me and my approach of calling a spade a spade, but I don't find either term particularly helpful or accurate.

Anyway, as I was saying, if framed in the context of "supporting the legal provision of abortion within set circumstances with appropriate precautions and controls", would you be happy with the tag of "pro-abortion"? If so, is it more a question of the connotations which have arisen around the term and which need addressing? If not, is there something else about the term which causes problems? I'm just trying to work out what the root cause of the issue is.


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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Abortion - December 10th 2010, 09:58 PM

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As I said, I don't see it as a case of encouraging abortions - that to my mind is an inaccurate distortion of most people's perspectives, and one I find very frustrating when it arises. What I was addressing more was the view that pro-abortion as a position is automatically something detach themselves from, even if when placed in the context of the examples you use it's a valid position which is justifiable from an ethical perspective without opening the metaphorical floodgates. What I don't understand is why we cling onto meaningless tags such as "pro-choice" and "pro-life" in this debate - I've certainly yet to hear anyone call themselves "anti-choice" and "anti-life" which would be the logical counterpositions - instead of going for the crux of the matter, so to speak. Maybe it's just me and my approach of calling a spade a spade, but I don't find either term particularly helpful or accurate.
It's just one of those terms that are flawed in modern society. It covers a very broad aspect of things, "pro-choice" and "pro-life." When it all comes down to it, pro-life and pro-choice are very detailed and it fluctuates throughout society so it's really hard to define. It's like the term "virginity"...frustrates me too because I think we have no idea what it really means.

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Anyway, as I was saying, if framed in the context of "supporting the legal provision of abortion within set circumstances with appropriate precautions and controls", would you be happy with the tag of "pro-abortion"?
No because that would be misleading. If I was pro-abortion, that would mean that I'm for killing potential babies. That would make me look like a bad and immoral person and that's too general on my viewpoints. It's like calling someone "pro-murder" for being for lethal injections. Just because I'm for lethal injections doesn't necessarily mean that I'm for murdering people. It's more complex than that and you can't really boil down my viewpoints to one specific term such as "pro-choice" or "pro-abortion." So I wouldn't like being called "pro-abortion" because that's not true. It's true to an extent, but not accurate either.
   
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Re: Pro-Choice vs Pro-Abortion - December 13th 2010, 06:47 PM

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It's just one of those terms that are flawed in modern society. It covers a very broad aspect of things, "pro-choice" and "pro-life." When it all comes down to it, pro-life and pro-choice are very detailed and it fluctuates throughout society so it's really hard to define. It's like the term "virginity"...frustrates me too because I think we have no idea what it really means.

I'm not sure I agree with you about "pro-choice" and "pro-life" being very detailed - to my mind they are some of the most vacuous, ill-defined terms around simply because there is no viable arguable counterpoint to them. Arguing "anti-life" is logically inconsistent if you are alive, just as much as "anti-choice" is if you live in a liberal democracy, and they cannot truly function as opposite sides of a debate because they are not opposites of each other. They seem to be terms which have specifically been chosen because they ARE so difficult to define and thereby make it easier to overlook some of the more difficult areas for both positions. Same probably goes for modern views of virginity as you point out - the term has become so ill-defined because some find it uncomfortable being defined one way or another. Maybe it all comes down to people not liking being put in boxes, but in a debate that is quite a hard thing to maintain.

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No because that would be misleading. If I was pro-abortion, that would mean that I'm for killing potential babies. That would make me look like a bad and immoral person and that's too general on my viewpoints. It's like calling someone "pro-murder" for being for lethal injections. Just because I'm for lethal injections doesn't necessarily mean that I'm for murdering people. It's more complex than that and you can't really boil down my viewpoints to one specific term such as "pro-choice" or "pro-abortion." So I wouldn't like being called "pro-abortion" because that's not true. It's true to an extent, but not accurate either.
The lethal injections analogy does have some weakness in that it is (in states which permit the death penalty at least) lawful killing, whereas murder is defined as unlawful killing. But I take your point. What I would take issue with is the notion that "pro-choice" does not at some level involve tacit consent for the process of abortion (and the consequences entailed therein) despite the fact that it does deem the choice for someone to have an abortion as acceptable. That to me suggests that there is a real problem with the implications of terminology, and it's probably why abortion is one of those topics which is so difficult to resolve or make any progress with. I do feel it would make things a lot easier if people just addressed it from the stance of "Legalised abortion - yay or nay?" rather than try and bring all kinds of other elements into it and obscure the issue at hand. As I've said before, though, that may just be me.


"The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." - Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

However bleak things seem, however insurmountable the darkness appears, remember that you have worth and nothing can take that away.

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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
RIP Nick
   
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