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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 03:45 AM

My mother is a sixth grade teacher. Not too long ago she informed me that she is no longer allowed to focus on and teach grammar and spelling in school. The reasons she was given were that it is "unnecessary" and "students do not use it anyway." The second reason is true.

But the first is the most absurd, irrational statement I have ever heard. In today's society, which focuses on communicating via text, one should think that grammar is one of the most important structures of today's society. So many first impressions are made via letter. A job hunter submits his or her resume to a company, and the company looks over that resume. Often, it's a proven fact, a prospective employer will throw out any and all resumes that do not use proper grammar. If one cannot use proper grammar, then he or she is automatically "thrown in the trash can."

Particularly on the internet, the only way to communicate is via sentences and sentence structure. Time and time again, I have stopped reading an article or post because it fails to use proper grammar. I understand that the internet is not school, but unlike generations before us, we have so many more tools to help us "improve" our spelling and grammar in documents. Even web browsers have built-in spell checks. And for grammar, there's Microsoft Word. (Granted, Microsoft Word can be wrong sometimes, but still, it's a start.)

Spell check or not, grammar should not be taken out of the curriculum. My college requires a grammar class to be taken as a general education class. A few years ago, when the college was modifying the curriculum, my grammar teacher informed us students that it was suggested that grammar be taken out of the curriculum. Immediately at that suggestion, college board members stood up against that idea.

It's sad that the college has to take the step and teach students grammar. It's also sad that I was one of the only students to receive an A in the class. It's also sad that I had not had a class that involved grammar whatsoever since eighth grade, and that was because I was in a Catholic school at the time.

Grammar is an essential part to our lives, to the way we communicate, to the way our future holds. With one little error, the communication falls apart, and misinterpretations happen. Grammar needs to be in our grade school education. It shouldn't be a matter for post-secondary institutions to try and "correct."


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 03:49 AM

Oh for fuck's sake. If people are failing school because for bad grammar, we do not need to be changing the system to pass them, WE NEED TO FAIL THEM AND MAKE THE DO IT OVER UNTIL THEY LEARN HOW TO FUCKING SPELL.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 03:55 AM

My Ohio school district actually did take it out of the curriculum for grade school for about six to eight years. It showed later on when we were in high school and we were having difficulty with basic grammar. They have since started teaching it again. Maybe the second class after us had it in their curriculum. I am 21.

The reasoning they used back then was that we would learn it through everyday usage. Unfortunately, that means that my school cohorts are more likely to write like we speak, which is not always grammatically correct.
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 03:56 AM

Oh, yeah. Great idea. Its not liek ppl need 2 no how 2 spell or anythign. Taking grammar out of the curriculum isn't going to improve the issue. That's like saying they should just remove arithmetic since we have calculators to do it for us.
   
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 03:58 AM

That has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I mean seriously all the other countries in the world think we as a people are idiots, do we really want to make it more true?


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 04:01 AM

Bad grammar is distracting and makes you look stupid. I definitely do not think it should be taken out of the curriculum. If students are having trouble learning grammar properly then the school needs to spend MORE time teaching it rather than less time.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 04:03 AM

Raise academic standards and put more pressure on kids to do better at school. The best charter schools are the best not because of the kids they admit, but because their standards are so high and they push their students so hard. It's why 98% of kids that graduate from charter schools are prepared for college and <30% OF KIDS FROM PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE READY FOR COLLEGE.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 04:17 AM

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Raise academic standards and put more pressure on kids to do better at school. The best charter schools are the best not because of the kids they admit, but because their standards are so high and they push their students so hard. It's why 98% of kids that graduate from charter schools are prepared for college and <30% OF KIDS FROM PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE NOT.
I don't think it even has to be hard, though. I went to a charter school in middle school, and it was the easiest school I've ever attended. I was a bit afraid that I wasn't learning anything, yet a good majority of our standardized test scores were higher than those from regular public schools in the area. The point is, kids aren't going to learn unless they want to. And if you worry less about meeting a million different standards in a short time and more about teaching them what they need to know, they might actually have the motivation to hold onto some of that information. Not that pushing them isn't necessary. Without pushing them, they won't see any reason to become motivated in the first place.
   
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 05:44 AM

I disagree with this completely. Knowledge of the English language is absolutely necessary to get by in life. You're going to have to use it when you apply for jobs, when you write papers in college, and in many other aspects of life. Kids generally don't use history either. Should we just stop teaching it?

This train of thought makes absolutely no sense to me. How anyone could say grammar is "unnecessary" is beyond me.
   
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 07:26 AM

It's just a way for a school to boost their grades...
   
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 08:07 AM

Wow just wow...
So next thing we'll hear is take away physics you don't use it anyways or take away science you'll never use it in your life. How do you expect the future generations to write their college essays or their job letters? with no grammar skills. Your grammar really reflexes a lot who you are, I can not imagine why they would take it out of school.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 09:23 AM

What a stupid idea

Lets hope this curriculum doesn't move all around the country (or even to other countries)

I'm a bit of a grammar nazi so I think I'll be staying off the internet in the distant future if the next generation can't use grammar or spell properly
   
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 11:04 AM

"The kids are too uneducated! Let's stop educating them!"

I love America.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 11:36 AM

Ohh what the heck? That's the LAST thing they should be doing. d kidz alredi tlk lyk thiz.
   
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 12:34 PM

To be fair, different school systems have different methods of setting up the curriculum. My school district sets it's own curriculum based off of I think the state's requirements for what is in the curriculum and the teachers' recommendations.
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 01:05 PM

So if they stop teaching grammar, when students hand in assignments, tests and exams, would the grammar part be ignored? It'd be ridiculous to penalize students on poor grammar shortly after deciding not to teach it. How could students learn grammar by interacting with peers when those peers haven't learned it either? I suppose they have to read and understand grammar then but if they make errors in writing or speech, who is there to correct them?

The next thing they should do is scrap language courses because kids aren't spelling properly anyway as they rely only on spelling corrections from software.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 02:55 PM

I'm appalled. I understand that many kids don't like grammar, and typin lyk dis iz jus as ez nd dey kan understand it, but the point in grammar is to communicate CLEARLY exactly what it is you're trying to say. I can't tell you how many times I've had to have someone explain themselves over and over because they didn't use punctuation that would have helped with what they were trying to say.



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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 20th 2010, 08:57 PM

This is just nuts, because even if you say they learn through everyday usage; newsflash I KNOW that I use incorrect grammar A LOT. When they teach it in school and give us those pretests we get them wrong. After so long of hearing it incorrectly used it begins to sound right even when it is wrong.
   
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 04:26 AM

Well, this is stupid. However, I'm assuming state departments probably have the last word on what is taught in the public schools in their state(as curriculum does vary a little from state to state). I don't understand why they would take away Grammar, but if they want a generation of people who can not construct a sentence, then that's on them.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 09:44 AM

Please, please, please do not let them do this in other states/countries O_____O This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. What about when (well, if) these children go to college/uni? how will they be able to write a bloody essay? or a CV when they look for a job?

Also, what about kids with dyslexia? I'm sure they found it hard enough to start with, now the schools are going to confuse them more.

My grammar isn't perfect but I'm aware I should become better :|


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 01:19 PM

Boy oh boy, don't I love the US.
   
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 01:39 PM

People aren't thinking about the other option. Perhaps everywhere will adopt this and the way we speak/type/spell will change, and become completely text speak. It isn't impossible, although I hope it never happens in my lifetime.



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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 01:51 PM

Yeah, but I'd rather that we didn't all start talking like uneducated morons.
   
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 02:17 PM

Adversely, I know people who have went through grammar teaching since primary school and still can't use it properly even now in college. Infact, just a few weeks ago we got a lesson on nouns and verbs. I felt almost insulted, yet it has become evident that people weren't listening in that class either.

Seriously, how hard is it to discern between there, their and they're?!




   
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 02:59 PM

That's horrible! I mean honestly, why take it out? I'm still in school, and I still need help with everything. It's not because I'm stupid, it's because there's just so much to learn. If you stop teaching it to our youth, than their going to get nowhere in life, for the most part anyways. I'm not saying that they won't get a job or anything, but I wouldn't hire someone who has this on their resume. "I likez to work cuz i am good with computerz"

I think it's a horrible idea, and that they need to think this over, and get some feedback before making any big choices like that. Just saying.
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snufkin View Post

Seriously, how hard is it to discern between there, their and they're?!
Tell me about it. And your and you're. That's another one that bugs me every single time. The same goes for to, two, and too; and it's and its. -_-


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 07:44 PM

Don't forget loose and lose and choose and chose.



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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 08:41 PM

I help my sister-in-law grade papers for college freshmen, and it drives me insane how poorly written and grammatically errant they are. I know that it may be a futile, losing battle, but we should still at least try to teach grammar. Poor grammar makes a huge impression on potential employers, especially in written applications and recommendation letters.

In conclusions, we isn't needing no dang grammars.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 08:45 PM

Yes, poor grammar can tell a would-be employer that you do not care. Same goes with speaking incorrectly, it makes it seem as though you are not careful or professional.
   
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 11:29 PM

I personally have issues with effect and affect. I know the difference but I still always second guess myself when writing a paper. And honestly I think I only learned the difference from my father.

I remember when I started high school, I had gone to private school all of my life and was now starting at a public high school, but I was in honors classes. So I'm in my honors English class and what are we learning?... prepositions, adverbs. I found myself in a class with kids talking about how they had been in gifted all through school who couldn't find the prepositional phrase in a sentence, something I had been doing since the 6th grade. By my junior English honors class we had to read a book every 9 weeks and write a report on it. I was reading 5 300-500 page books every 9 weeks while other kids were having problems getting through one book. I don't understand why that's allowed to be ok.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 11:39 PM

We don't learn grammar. We haven't had a grammar lesson in years. Some teachers in my high school teach it, but they are not required to. I hate it when people use poor grammar. It really, really bugs me. I try to write properly at least. If I wrote anything like I speak sometimes, most people would think I'm an idiot. I'm from a small, rural, Southern town and I'll admit that my grammar when I speak isn't that great. One of the things that you have to learn to do is to turn it on and to turn it off. I can talk properly when I'm around people that I need to, but when I'm at home or with friends I don't feel the need to speak properly.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 11:39 PM

Thats crazy. A lot of students do use their grammer, especially when writing something important. When we are just talking to our friends online then sure, we may not always use grammar but thats because we want to be able to type as fast as we can.
Nevertheless, spelling and grammar are still very important and should be continued to be taught in schools. If they aren't learning it, then change the curriculum, don't just take it out entirely.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 21st 2010, 11:43 PM

I didn't have a grammar class--or grammar mentioned whatsoever--throughout all of my high school years. For four years, we read books and poetry, and were required to write analytical papers regarding what we read. My junior and senior year I was in AP classes, whereas my freshman and sophomore year were "Advanced," or AP-prep classes.

I do find myself second guessing myself with 'affect' and 'effect,' sometimes. But those are the only 'commonly misused words' I second guess myself on. The effect is that it will affect me in some way. I know the difference, but it is one that I have to think about. Hah, I remember in high school a student asked the teacher what the difference was. The teacher did not even know. She had to look it up.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 22nd 2010, 01:29 AM

God I hate people sometimes. Such stupid measures taken to assist the district rather than do the educational system's job. Grammar is important and to deny that is just ignorant. It shows how you convey your opinions or thoughts and to have awful grammar is to come off as scatterbrained or just plain stupid. I admit, I have friends that abuse the hell out of text speech and couldn't use a comma to save their life and it pains me whenever I have to read whatever they've written.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 22nd 2010, 07:41 AM

I think it's ridiculous. Just like i think it's ridiculous how they're phasing out exams for anyone under GCSE age. We need to worry less about hurting a kids feelings when they fail and worry more about them being literate and coping in the real world. If i was an employer and someones application was full of grammatical errors and spelling mistakes it would go straight in the bin.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 22nd 2010, 06:53 PM

Has anyone ever watched Idiocracy? We're well on our way to this guys!

Come on. Even here on TH, if I can't understand what you are typing because you are typing in text speak, can't spell half of your words correctly, or can't form one proper sentence with punctuation I will skip your post. In my head I'm saying this person is stupid and probably won't take/understand my advice anyway. Harsh, but true.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 22nd 2010, 09:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverHis View Post
Has anyone ever watched Idiocracy? We're well on our way to this guys!

Come on. Even here on TH, if I can't understand what you are typing because you are typing in text speak, can't spell half of your words correctly, or can't form one proper sentence with punctuation I will skip your post. In my head I'm saying this person is stupid and probably won't take/understand my advice anyway. Harsh, but true.
Exactly. Personally, I see poor spelling and/or grammar as a sign of intellectual incapacity, ie. stupid. Phasing it out of the education system simply reinforces the stereotype that many countries have of the UK. The stereotype being that of a bunch of lazy, welfare-reliant, binge-drinking idiots. They're not totally incorrect actually, and I'd hope that the government would see this and change it. Unfortunately it seems as if they're taking steps in the opposite direction.
   
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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 22nd 2010, 11:59 PM

Quote:
Come on. Even here on TH, if I can't understand what you are typing because you are typing in text speak, can't spell half of your words correctly, or can't form one proper sentence with punctuation I will skip your post. In my head I'm saying this person is stupid and probably won't take/understand my advice anyway. Harsh, but true.
I'm glad to know I'm not alone. On the internet the way one types is the only way to truly judge someone. If one cannot type with proper English, what am I supposed to think? You could be a highly intelligent person, but I can't see that. I only see what you type on the screen.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 23rd 2010, 08:17 AM

Grammar isn't a proper noun and shouldn't be capitalized unless used as part of a title. Now that I have gotten that out of the way, I agree, it should remain as a part of the school curriculum and be required in high school. Sure, we may be required to take two years of a foreign language, and great, now we can hardly speak Spanish, and yet, we still sound like idiots in our own language.


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Re: Taking Grammar out of Curriculum? - December 24th 2010, 02:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile View Post
Grammar isn't a proper noun and shouldn't be capitalized unless used as part of a title. Now that I have gotten that out of the way, I agree, it should remain as a part of the school curriculum and be required in high school. Sure, we may be required to take two years of a foreign language, and great, now we can hardly speak Spanish, and yet, we still sound like idiots in our own language.
It was the title of the thread and therefore acceptable to be capitalized


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