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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Humanzees - March 4th 2009, 01:40 AM

Okay, so I saw a show on the Science channel about humanzees, a hybrid of a chimp and a human. You have to believe that it's gonna happen and that it's possible. If Ligers are possible, so are humanzees.

At the end it talked about, when one's made, how so many moral questions would come, and I thought about debating them.

Let's just say that one is made tomorrow....

Should it be legal to test on them (please don't say no because you believe animal testing is wrong, that's a different debate)? Or would they be too human to perform testing on them?

Should they have the same rights as humans? Less rights, but still some rights? No rights, like animals?




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Re: Humanzees - March 4th 2009, 03:28 AM

Hmm, never heard of a humanzee, although you cant always toss 2 random animals together and hope they'll produce a viable offspring. About the ethical issues, I think this would call into question just what is a human. Now, we cant accurately play the card of the number of chromosomes because someone with Down's Syndromes and such would have a different number. So, you'd have to figure out what is a human, and what something would need to possess to be considered a human. This can be a rather difficult question due to the immense diversity of humans, and we'd need a definition to cover all of them, unless you want to omit some people from the human race. So from an anatomical and physiological perspective, this would be a bit hard but something could be worked out. From a genetic perspective, it'd be harder. I'm not entirely sure what I'd consider a human to be. Naturally, we could say something that has intelligence, emotions, ability to use tools, etc..., but not all people even fit that basic idea (i.e. psychopaths lack emotion, people with various disorders have low/high intelligence and cannot use basic tools).

The argument of "if ligars are possible so are humanzees" doesn't necessarily work. True, they both produced offspring that survived but are they sterile/infertile? Do they have some sort of disorders from their production? Why did they even mate a human and a chimpanzee?
   
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Re: Humanzees - March 4th 2009, 03:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
.

The argument of "if ligars are possible so are humanzees" doesn't necessarily work. True, they both produced offspring that survived but are they sterile/infertile? Do they have some sort of disorders from their production? Why did they even mate a human and a chimpanzee?
I really don't think that humanzees are possible. I'll believe it when I see it. They haven't mated them yet (that I know of, I'm sure this would be big news). Sure, we are close kin to animals but I can't think of any human that would want to carry a humanzee baby in her womb. It would take a special kind of person to do that. If I had sperm, I certainly wouldn't want it to go to making a humanzee. Ligers are tigons are possible, but don't they occur in nature already? I can't see humanzees occuring in nature.


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Re: Humanzees - March 4th 2009, 03:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by udontno View Post
I really don't think that humanzees are possible. I'll believe it when I see it. They haven't mated them yet (that I know of, I'm sure this would be big news). Sure, we are close kin to animals but I can't think of any human that would want to carry a humanzee baby in her womb. It would take a special kind of person to do that. If I had sperm, I certainly wouldn't want it to go to making a humanzee. Ligers are tigons are possible, but don't they occur in nature already? I can't see humanzees occuring in nature.
True, I'll also see it when I believe it, however, the OP stated a show about them, so I assumed they existed. No idea if ligers or tigons occur naturally. I'm not sure if it was a human that supposedly carried the humanzee or a chimpanzee that carried the humanzee.
   
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Re: Humanzees - March 4th 2009, 04:09 AM

dont think ligers occur in nature. hybrids cant reproduced.

a cross between a chimp in human? We dont even have the same number of chromosomes The hybrid wouldnt be human, it wouldnt think on the same level we do.

It would only be as ethical to test on as other creatures. It also wouldnt tell us much about humans.

Its pointless to make one, its taking humans backward, and it'd be infertile.

Also... in the western world at least, animals do have some rights.
   
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Re: Humanzees - March 4th 2009, 11:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
True, I'll also see it when I believe it, however, the OP stated a show about them, so I assumed they existed. No idea if ligers or tigons occur naturally. I'm not sure if it was a human that supposedly carried the humanzee or a chimpanzee that carried the humanzee.
Wiki Article on Tigons
Wiki Article on Ligers

According to Wiki, they both seem to appear naturally. It's rare, but it happens. Also, some male ligers can be fertile, but it is rare. So it's not impossible for them to reproduce.


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Re: Humanzees - March 4th 2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:
Okay, so I saw a show on the Science channel about humanzees, a hybrid of a chimp and a human.
This is just a hypothetical idea, right? Otherwise Source?

Quote:
You have to believe that it's gonna happen and that it's possible
.
Owrly?
Make me

Quote:
If Ligers are possible, so are humanzees.
Where are you getting this?

Quote:
At the end it talked about, when one's made, how so many moral questions would come, and I thought about debating them.
Yes, I'm sure the child support for Bobo's hair cuts & waxing would be a pain.

Quote:
Let's just say that one is made tomorrow....

Should it be legal to test on them
Give a clearer definition/description/etc of this animal, it's mental & other abilities & etc. + Since many hybrids don't live too long (depends) I doubt we'd even get to those Qs.

Quote:
No rights, like animals?
They don't? Where are you from?

Quote:
dont think ligers occur in nature. hybrids cant reproduced.
Actually ligers CAN reproduce, dispite being hybrids.

"In 1943, however, a fifteen-year-old hybrid between a lion and an 'Island' tiger was successfully mated with a lion at the Munich Hellabrunn Zoo. The female cub, although of delicate health, was raised to adulthood.[7]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger#Fertility


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Re: Humanzees - March 4th 2009, 11:27 PM

some hybrids can reproduce. Most can't though




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Re: Humanzees - March 4th 2009, 11:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoesThisLookInfected? View Post
some hybrids can reproduce. Most can't though
That's totally not the point of his post though. You've left a lot of holes in your debate, to be honest. Post something with some meat in it, I really want to hear where you are coming from and I'm not getting that. Tell me more about these humanzees, I'm honestly interested.


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Re: Humanzees - March 4th 2009, 11:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by udontno View Post
Wiki Article on Tigons
Wiki Article on Ligers

According to Wiki, they both seem to appear naturally. It's rare, but it happens. Also, some male ligers can be fertile, but it is rare. So it's not impossible for them to reproduce.
I never said it was impossible for them to reproduce, so I'm not sure why you're telling me that it's not impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoesThisLookInfected? View Post
some hybrids can reproduce. Most can't though
Your point? It's already been established that some hybrids can reproduce. Also, wasn't this thread meant to be about humanzees and not ligers or tigons? You brought in quite an interesting topic, however, sadly that topic has very little evidence or any details from you. In terms of the ethical issues, it depends on their characteristics. Whether or not they should get human rights depends on what we consider a human to be, and do these humanzees meet that definition. Provide some sources that give some details of humanzees, then it can be easier to decide ethical issues.
   
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Re: Humanzees - March 5th 2009, 01:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
I never said it was impossible for them to reproduce, so I'm not sure why you're telling me that it's not impossible.



Your point? It's already been established that some hybrids can reproduce. Also, wasn't this thread meant to be about humanzees and not ligers or tigons? You brought in quite an interesting topic, however, sadly that topic has very little evidence or any details from you. In terms of the ethical issues, it depends on their characteristics. Whether or not they should get human rights depends on what we consider a human to be, and do these humanzees meet that definition. Provide some sources that give some details of humanzees, then it can be easier to decide ethical issues.
That was just in general, while I was posting.

Wiki on Humanzees

I ran a quick web search and that popped up. I thought I would throw the source out there, maybe someone can draw some points from it.


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Re: Humanzees - March 5th 2009, 01:25 AM

Sorry guys, didn't out much info about it, should've put the wiki up. Thanks Amanda Kate




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Re: Humanzees - March 5th 2009, 01:53 AM

Completely possible... ethical? That's the question.
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Re: Humanzees - March 5th 2009, 02:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gram Negative View Post
Completely possible... ethical? That's the question.
Never said it wasn't possible. I believe it's ethical, but that's me, being the evil atheist that's going to hell (or so I've been told).




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Re: Humanzees - March 5th 2009, 02:23 AM

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Originally Posted by DoesThisLookInfected? View Post
Never said it wasn't possible. I believe it's ethical, but that's me, being the evil atheist that's going to hell (or so I've been told).
And your reasons for believing it is ethical are?
   
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Re: Humanzees - March 5th 2009, 03:02 AM

they say that Stalin was working on making some of these. Look it up, it's interesting.
   
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Re: Humanzees - March 5th 2009, 03:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi_ImJordan View Post
they say that Stalin was working on making some of these. Look it up, it's interesting.
Point is invalid unless you have a source. Folks, this is a debate. Back your stuff up with sources, please.


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Re: Humanzees - March 5th 2009, 03:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
And your reasons for believing it is ethical are?
Because I see no reason why it wouldn't be ethical...




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Re: Humanzees - March 5th 2009, 03:48 AM

I don't know about the testing part about this. Because in my heart I'm 100% against animal testing. But I think there's going to be a fine line because if they have human intellect i'm sure you could ask them their opinion but we're going to see how this stuff goes when the time comes I suppose


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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 02:14 AM

Hmmm.... well it does sound possible, considering how similar human and chimp DNA is. However, what the heck is the point of it? Although it would bring an interesting perspective on the human>animal, human=animal debate. So far I haven't actually heard a convincing reason why humans are more important than animals. It seems to be based on intellect or physical ability such as opposable thumbs. However, I would like to know why physically disabled or mentally disabled people are still equal then. I'm guessing that the only reason people consider themselves more important than animals is because of self-preservation and because humans can emphasize with other humans much easier because they often have similar psychology. So, I kind of hope they end up creating one of these hybrids because it would be extremely interesting to see how people react to it and how society treats it.


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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 03:45 AM

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Originally Posted by DoesThisLookInfected? View Post
Because I see no reason why it wouldn't be ethical...
... Give some sort of reasoning aside from that. Why do you think it would ethical? That's part of this debate, isn't it? So a mere answer as the one you gave does not answer the question.
   
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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 03:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
... Give some sort of reasoning aside from that. Why do you think it would ethical? That's part of this debate, isn't it? So a mere answer as the one you gave does not answer the question.
It isn't human. I believe that testing on animals for medicine is ethical. We wouldn't be anywhere without testing.


KEEP IN MIND THAT I DON'T WANT THIS TO BECOME A DEBATE ABOUT ANIMAL TESTING




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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:
It isn't human
Define human then & how is that being going to be different


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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.K. View Post
Define human then & how is that being going to be different
100% of the DNA is from the animal species Homo Sapiens

In Humanzees, 50% of the DNA would be from Homo Sapiens, 50% would be from the animal species Pan Troglodytes, Chimpanzee.




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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoesThisLookInfected? View Post
100% of the DNA is from the animal species Homo Sapiens

In Humanzees, 50% of the DNA would be from Homo Sapiens, 50% would be from the animal species Pan Troglodytes, Chimpanzee.
Chimps, Humans 96 Percent the Same, Gene Study Finds
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...imp_genes.html

I know shit about genetics, but at least even with this, saying 50% of DNA is human chimp/etc is bull...
Yes, we differ from other ape species in many ways, however, we also have MANY similarities, this includes genetics.

What would it even mean 50% human DNA? According to the above, we already are.


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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 07:37 PM

I don't really think this will happen. Most humans wouldn't really want to have sex with a chimpanzee and the ones that did would probably be stopped before they ever had a chance to.

If it did happen though then I think that they probably will be tested on but it depends how human they look. If they looked very much like a human then there'd probably be a smaller chance of them being tested on.


   
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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.K. View Post
Chimps, Humans 96 Percent the Same, Gene Study Finds
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...imp_genes.html

I know shit about genetics, but at least even with this, saying 50% of DNA is human chimp/etc is bull...
Yes, we differ from other ape species in many ways, however, we also have MANY similarities, this includes genetics.

What would it even mean 50% human DNA? According to the above, we already are.
Fine, 100% (or really, really close to it) of the DNA of a human is a human. Anything less is not human. I would assume, based on math (I could be wrong, correct me if I am), that humanzee would 98% (if chimps and humans share 96% of DNA.

I know you're going to talk about genetic disorders now, but that's still almost all human DNA. The "really, really, close to it" part is to make an exception for those who have a genetic disorder which changes the makeup of the DNA.

Or, we could use.. both parents came from the species homo sapiens. I can't find anything wrong with that definition of human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boo Ghost
I don't really think this will happen. Most humans wouldn't really want to have sex with a chimpanzee and the ones that did would probably be stopped before they ever had a chance to.

If it did happen though then I think that they probably will be tested on but it depends how human they look. If they looked very much like a human then there'd probably be a smaller chance of them being tested on.
They wouldn't actually have sex with a chimp. The chimp would be artificially inseminated with human sperm.




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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 08:31 PM

Quote:
They wouldn't actually have sex with a chimp. The chimp would be artificially inseminated with human sperm.
Just ruined all the fun parts...


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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 08:36 PM

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Originally Posted by R.K. View Post
Just ruined all the fun parts...
Because, wouldn't it be illegal to actually have sex with one?




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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 08:59 PM

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Originally Posted by DoesThisLookInfected? View Post
It isn't human. I believe that testing on animals for medicine is ethical. We wouldn't be anywhere without testing.


KEEP IN MIND THAT I DON'T WANT THIS TO BECOME A DEBATE ABOUT ANIMAL TESTING
Allow me to quote something for you..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoesThisLookInfected?
Should it be legal to test on them (please don't say no because you believe animal testing is wrong, that's a different debate)? Or would they be too human to perform testing on them?
Read your own post, you wanted the animal-testing question answered, along with others.

The definition of a human coming from 2 parents of the species homo sapiens seems fair enough.
   
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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 10:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boo Ghost View Post
I don't really think this will happen. Most humans wouldn't really want to have sex with a chimpanzee and the ones that did would probably be stopped before they ever had a chance to.

If it did happen though then I think that they probably will be tested on but it depends how human they look. If they looked very much like a human then there'd probably be a smaller chance of them being tested on.
You don't really have to have sex with anything. We just alter the genomes of the egg and sperm so that they are similar and then do the fertilization invitro. I think that the fertilization will be a problem because there are some differences that might prevent successful penetration of the egg cells by sperm. Might just need to alter some membrane structures to allow for successful penetration.
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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 10:38 PM

Chillax, guys.

Why don't we define a human as the product of two human gametes? It doesn't need to be complicated in order to work.

I would be afraid that it would come out with human intellect and stature of a human retaining a chimps relative strength and agility. Sure, it's a sci-fi type of scenario, but I don't see why it isn't possible. It could be dangerous.
   
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Re: Humanzees - March 7th 2009, 11:14 PM

Hitler was the leader of germany.. Do I need a source to back that up? That post was kinda pointless.


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Re: Humanzees - March 8th 2009, 12:04 AM

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Originally Posted by EDGE View Post
Hitler was the leader of germany.. Do I need a source to back that up? That post was kinda pointless.
Anything that is not common knowledge, then you need to have a source for it. If you say something like "12% of humans are would be willing to mate with a chimp," then we need a source for that. You can't say that something is a fact out of thin air, you need to cite your sources.


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Re: Humanzees - March 8th 2009, 05:28 AM

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Originally Posted by YourNightmare View Post
Allow me to quote something for you..



Read your own post, you wanted the animal-testing question answered, along with others.

The definition of a human coming from 2 parents of the species homo sapiens seems fair enough.
no, testing on Humanzees, not animals in general




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Re: Humanzees - March 8th 2009, 02:02 PM

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Originally Posted by DoesThisLookInfected? View Post
Because, wouldn't it be illegal to actually have sex with one?
1. I don't think it's illegal everywhere... so...

2. By the time the deed is done, & baby Bobo is on its way, it's already too late.


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Re: Humanzees - March 8th 2009, 03:50 PM

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Originally Posted by R.K. View Post
1. I don't think it's illegal everywhere... so...

2. By the time the deed is done, & baby Bobo is on its way, it's already too late.
Well, it's illegal everywhere that would want to test it I believe. And I wasn't trying to make a huge point... just wanted to make a comment.




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Re: Humanzees - March 8th 2009, 04:02 PM

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Originally Posted by DoesThisLookInfected? View Post
Well, it's illegal everywhere that would want to test it I believe. And I wasn't trying to make a huge point... just wanted to make a comment.
Yeah yeah, I know, I just didn't have anything specific to contribute, so was "criticism" miscellaneous details.

I just don't see this as problem... unless people massively would start humping monkeys & this would become a mainstream phenomenon...

Otherwise, it's 1 example.
We have HUMAN children that live basically in labs & hospitals all their lives, because they have rare conditions/diseases/etc. They are labrats, in a sense... I see this creature no different...



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Re: Humanzees - March 8th 2009, 11:03 PM

hang on.....wait....so there are people in this thread that actually thought the making of a "humanzee" would require a human being to copulate with a chimp...?


and did my other post really get deleted? ridiculous.
   
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Re: Humanzees - March 8th 2009, 11:47 PM

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Originally Posted by Hi_ImJordan View Post
hang on.....wait....so there are people in this thread that actually thought the making of a "humanzee" would require a human being to copulate with a chimp...?


and did my other post really get deleted? ridiculous.
No clue about your other posts but having sex with a chimp is one way. Of course, you could do the insertion of semen without a dick into the chimp or into the human. Either way works. But I'd probably go with experimentally inserting it into the chimp/human (depending if the female is a chimp or human).
   
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