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U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 24th 2011, 05:23 PM

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  (#2 (permalink)) Old
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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 24th 2011, 05:37 PM

Being the pedant that I am (no point hiding from who you are I say ), I feel I should point out that the Netherlands has had to engage in significant crackdowns in Amsterdam with regards to both drugs and prostitution, as the links between both and organised crime had if anything increased following decriminalisation. I'd also say that it is perhaps a tad naive to claim that the violence in Afghanistan, Mexico et al would vanish with decriminalisation - they are also supplying countries which have decriminalised, after all - or that the issues with overdose, addiction and HIV/AIDS would be resolved either.

All that being said, I do believe that the current approach is not working and that there needs to be a debate on the best means of tackling the situation with drugs. There does need to be a certain realism about it all, though.


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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 24th 2011, 07:33 PM

Legalise them and regulate them, do the same with Prostitution. Seems fairly obvious to me.
   
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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 24th 2011, 08:02 PM

Not to mention... that if they were legalised, most of the drug lords would go bust almost overnight.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
  (#5 (permalink)) Old
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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 24th 2011, 08:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDF View Post
Not to mention... that if they were legalised, most of the drug lords would go bust almost overnight.
Plus you can make an insane amount of money and speed up economic recovery by like 5x, reduce harm caused to takers by providing them with "higher quality" (Ie. more safe) drugs, clean syringes etc. - sort of like the way we currently promote safe sex.
   
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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 24th 2011, 09:10 PM

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Not to mention... that if they were legalised, most of the drug lords would go bust almost overnight.
It certainly hasn't turned out that way in the Netherlands, so I'm not sure where your rationale for that argument comes from. The drugs trade into and out of the Netherlands and its links to organised crime appear to be as strong as ever. (Source, see also Results of the drug policy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut View Post
Plus you can make an insane amount of money and speed up economic recovery by like 5x, reduce harm caused to takers by providing them with "higher quality" (Ie. more safe) drugs, clean syringes etc. - sort of like the way we currently promote safe sex.
While laudable in theory, at present that is entirely theoretical and you would need to provide some justification for said theories.


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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 24th 2011, 09:44 PM

It's pretty obvious that there are some drugs that should not be legalized, regulated or permitted. However, drugs like marijuana have certain medicinal effects, and if governments were able to regulate, tax and sell them, they could make millions from the taxation, as well as save millions from not having to send users to trial and jail/prison.

The war on drugs has failed. It was poorly conceived and managed from the start, and went from a bad idea to a complete catastrophe of policy and action. Maybe it was a noble idea, but the way it was carried out shows that it should have stayed as just that: an idea.


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  (#8 (permalink)) Old
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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 24th 2011, 10:14 PM

Legalizing all of the previously illegal drugs wouldn't be a great thing because there are some that are incredibly devastating. I would support certain previously illegal drugs being made legal, such as marijuana because it has medicinal benefits and will be researched more once made legal. Researchers can study illegal drugs but it becomes more difficult as you have to obtain them and have your lab inspected routinely. The concern is for those illegal drugs that are quite harmful with no medicinal benefit, would they be made legal or remain illegal? Some of the drug users take legal drugs so legally I don't think there'd be a difference because they would still be sold.

With that said, for addicts who have no stable income and engage in crimes to get money, they probably would continue with that. They can be the most difficult to treat and by legalizing previously illegal drugs, those people aren't helped. If anything, it may serve to further enhance their dependence as there is easier access.

Lastly, if the legalized drugs are of "higher quality" and safer in some way, not all addicts may like it so they'll seek out sources to get their previous kind of the same drug.


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  (#9 (permalink)) Old
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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 24th 2011, 10:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr2005 View Post
While laudable in theory, at present that is entirely theoretical and you would need to provide some justification for said theories.
  • If you legalised and taxed drugs, you'd make millions because the drugs industry is so huge.
  • If you then regulated it, you could provide clean equipment and drugs of reliable quality, thus reducing fatalities.
  • If you provide them cheaply, you cut out a large percentage of underground criminal drug-dealers.
  • If you legalised Prostitution and taxed it, you'd likewise make millions because the Prostitution industry is so huge.
  • You could then regulate it, enforcing human/women's rights etc, providing reliable condoms/contraception utilities etc.
  • You could then work towards reducing the social stigma against them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master View Post
Legalizing all of the previously illegal drugs wouldn't be a great thing because there are some that are incredibly devastating. I would support certain previously illegal drugs being made legal, such as marijuana because it has medicinal benefits and will be researched more once made legal. Researchers can study illegal drugs but it becomes more difficult as you have to obtain them and have your lab inspected routinely. The concern is for those illegal drugs that are quite harmful with no medicinal benefit, would they be made legal or remain illegal? Some of the drug users take legal drugs so legally I don't think there'd be a difference because they would still be sold.
Actually I agree with this. However, I think there's a difference between things being legal, illegal and criminal. In this case, I suggest we legalise the obvious ones like Marijuana etc., but with the things that are obviously bad for society, rather than criminalise them, forcibly rehabilitate caught users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master View Post
With that said, for addicts who have no stable income and engage in crimes to get money, they probably would continue with that. They can be the most difficult to treat and by legalizing previously illegal drugs, those people aren't helped. If anything, it may serve to further enhance their dependence as there is easier access.
Two things:
Legal would be cheaper. The government doesn't need to make as much money from it, as it isn't reliant.
It would be easier to get it legally, I'm surprised you think otherwise. Just pop to the pharmacy.

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Lastly, if the legalized drugs are of "higher quality" and safer in some way, not all addicts may like it so they'll seek out sources to get their previous kind of the same drug.
How does that.. Sorry but I don't think that's even a valid argument. I highly doubt drug addicts go to drug-dealers because they love the thrill of low-quality, dangerous drugs.
   
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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 25th 2011, 05:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut View Post

  • If you legalised and taxed drugs, you'd make millions because the drugs industry is so huge.
  • If you then regulated it, you could provide clean equipment and drugs of reliable quality, thus reducing fatalities.
  • If you provide them cheaply, you cut out a large percentage of underground criminal drug-dealers.
  • If you legalised Prostitution and taxed it, you'd likewise make millions because the Prostitution industry is so huge.
  • You could then regulate it, enforcing human/women's rights etc, providing reliable condoms/contraception utilities etc.
  • You could then work towards reducing the social stigma against them.
Perhaps I should clarify: explaining your theory in more detail does not make it any less theoretical. You need to be able to provide examples where such actions have followed decriminalisation or legalisation, particularly in light of the fact that one of the most widely-touted examples (the Netherlands) is decidely mixed on both issues. I do not by any means rule out that examples may well exist; it is more that they are not widely known, hence why they ideally need providing as supporting evidence.


"The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." - Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

However bleak things seem, however insurmountable the darkness appears, remember that you have worth and nothing can take that away.

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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
RIP Nick
   
  (#11 (permalink)) Old
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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 25th 2011, 05:55 PM

I'm on board with MonsterCosmonaut on this issue and strongly support the legalization and regulation of prostitution.


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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 25th 2011, 06:04 PM

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Perhaps I should clarify: explaining your theory in more detail does not make it any less theoretical. You need to be able to provide examples where such actions have followed decriminalisation or legalisation, particularly in light of the fact that one of the most widely-touted examples (the Netherlands) is decidely mixed on both issues. I do not by any means rule out that examples may well exist; it is more that they are not widely known, hence why they ideally need providing as supporting evidence.
I'm not sure I can provide examples, as it hasn't been done in more than about 3 countries in the world. We can't do anything other than theory really. To me, the theory is much like saying "Dropping the pencil will result in the pencil falling to the floor.". If you do action a, action b will happen.
   
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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 25th 2011, 10:14 PM

I don't understand why people are saying that if drugs are made legal they will be cheaper and drug lords will fall apart. First you think that just because something is legal all the underground markets will disappear too? Take guns for example, there is a huge underground market for them. If drug is regulated and controlled by the government they are obviously going to use higher quality of ingredients to make it and will cost more, drug lords don't use the highest quality ingredients and will sell the drugs cheaper. If the government will sell 2 cigarettes for $10 and the drug lord 4 cigarettes for $10. What do you think an addict will buy?


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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 25th 2011, 11:16 PM

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I don't understand why people are saying that if drugs are made legal they will be cheaper and drug lords will fall apart. First you think that just because something is legal all the underground markets will disappear too? Take guns for example, there is a huge underground market for them. If drug is regulated and controlled by the government they are obviously going to use higher quality of ingredients to make it and will cost more, drug lords don't use the highest quality ingredients and will sell the drugs cheaper. If the government will sell 2 cigarettes for and the drug lord 4 cigarettes for What do you think an addict will buy?
That example is unrealistic. If the government were selling them, it'd be the other way around. More resources, better access to stock, less requirements for profit.
   
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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 25th 2011, 11:19 PM

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That example is unrealistic. If the government were selling them, it'd be the other way around. More resources, better access to stock, less requirements for profit.
The guns example? or what I don't understand how it would be the other way around.


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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 25th 2011, 11:20 PM

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Actually I agree with this. However, I think there's a difference between things being legal, illegal and criminal. In this case, I suggest we legalise the obvious ones like Marijuana etc., but with the things that are obviously bad for society, rather than criminalise them, forcibly rehabilitate caught users.
Forced rehabilitation runs into an immediate problem if the user refuses treatment. They could easily be given any necessary medical treatment, perhaps certain antibuses and kept longer but eventually they're going to be let go. If they haven't changed their view and location, there's a good chance they'll relapse. Besides, if they're addicted, they have to at least be kept for about 1 month, otherwise cross-sensitization and re-exposure will bring them back to the same place.

I'm open to certain drugs being made illegal OR criminal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut View Post
Two things:
Legal would be cheaper. The government doesn't need to make as much money from it, as it isn't reliant.
It would be easier to get it legally, I'm surprised you think otherwise. Just pop to the pharmacy.
There appears to be some confusion because your second point is re-writing what I said yet you seem to be disagreeing. It would be easier to get legally and that is my point in that "hard-core addicts" (for lack of a better term) can get more and more exposures to the drug, thereby increasing their addiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut View Post
How does that.. Sorry but I don't think that's even a valid argument. I highly doubt drug addicts go to drug-dealers because they love the thrill of low-quality, dangerous drugs.
I said this because when you said safer drugs, I assumed they would not provide the same feelings as the lower quality more dangerous drugs. If they provide the same feeling and same strength of addiction, then what makes them safer? Are you saying the creation of the drugs will be safer because better equipment in a more sterile environment will be used to make them? If so, I'll agree on that but if you're saying something else, then you've completely lost me as to the differences between the safer versus dangerous versions of the same drug.


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Re: U.N. Discussing End to the War on Drugs - May 25th 2011, 11:37 PM

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Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master View Post
Forced rehabilitation runs into an immediate problem if the user refuses treatment. They could easily be given any necessary medical treatment, perhaps certain antibuses and kept longer but eventually they're going to be let go. If they haven't changed their view and location, there's a good chance they'll relapse. Besides, if they're addicted, they have to at least be kept for about 1 month, otherwise cross-sensitization and re-exposure will bring them back to the same place.
Just tell them if they don't go through rehabilitation then they *will* go to prison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master View Post
I said this because when you said safer drugs, I assumed they would not provide the same feelings as the lower quality more dangerous drugs. If they provide the same feeling and same strength of addiction, then what makes them safer? Are you saying the creation of the drugs will be safer because better equipment in a more sterile environment will be used to make them? If so, I'll agree on that but if you're saying something else, then you've completely lost me as to the differences between the safer versus dangerous versions of the same drug.
I'm saying that the creations of the drugs will be safer. Sterile equipment, government verification, knowledge of where it comes from, *exactly* how much dosage is in each packet etc.
   
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