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Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 05:35 PM

Recently I've been thinking about homophobia and gay hate. I couldn't understand why people hate homosexuals. It's their preference, and as long as they aren't making you watch gay porn, live with it. No one is forced to be gay, it's the way they were born.

However I came to another conclusion, there is nothing wrong with being homophobic. Before you light up your rainbow torches and grab a stake to drive through my heart, hear me out.

Homophobia is the fear of homosexuals. it means that the thought of two men or two women having sex scares someone. They fear it. People cannot control what they are scared of. People are afraid of spiders, water, the dark, you name it. So why do we hate homophobics, and whenever someone says anything anti gay imeditately they are Homophobic?

Anti-gay is totally different. This means they are against gays and believe that gays are mutants, monsters, beasts against God, or perverted pedophilles. Are all anti-gays homophobic? Probably not. People always want some wrongful force to stand against, for some they aim this will to oppose against gays for no reason. It's arrogance.

Now, here's where gays shoot themselves in the foot. If anyone says "I hate gays!" imediately they brand that person "Homophobic" as though implying there is something to fear, and the only reason someone would say anything against gays is because they fear them, as though gays will kill them in their sleep. It doesn't make sense. Homophobia is not wrong. It's the same as being gay, it's something you cannnot control, and to be honest it makes gays look like spiteful hypocrites to hate homophobics who cannot control their fear of gays, just as gays cannot control their will to be sexually attracted to the same gender.

Homophobia is not wrong, being gay is not wrong. Being Anti-gay on the other hand is wrong.

- Justin



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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 05:43 PM

I'd be willing to put a lot of money on the fact that most people aren't legitimately homophobic. A phobia isn't just something that creeps people out. It is an extreme, irrational fear of something. Most people just have an issue with gay people, and aren't actually homophobic.
   
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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maloo View Post
I'd be willing to put a lot of money on the fact that most people aren't legitimately homophobic. A phobia isn't just something that creeps people out. It is an extreme, irrational fear of something. Most people just have an issue with gay people, and aren't actually homophobic.
A phobia isn't necessarily irrational. A fear of spiders is not, as some spiders can kill you. A fear of the dark is not, as a killer could be lurking in the dark for you. Only irrational fears are met with treatment. I also realize that I didn't really explain homophobia very well, but honestly it was beside the point.


My point is that anti-gays are not homophobic but just assholes. As I stated in my post:

"Are all anti-gays homophobic? Probably not."

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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 05:49 PM

Define: homophobic

prejudiced against homosexual people

a person who hates or fears homosexual people

A range of negative attitudes and feelings towards LGBTQ people. Definitions refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and irrational fear.

I say that it CAN be the irrational fear of homosexuals. But it is not limited to that definition. It can be hate, antipathy, contempt, and prejudice towards homosexuals.

Coretta Scott King said "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."
   
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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 05:50 PM

And my point is that no, true homophobia isn't wrong, but there's barely anyone who's truly homophobic, so I don't see how this is going to go anywhere.

And with the phobia part, what I meant to say was that it's an irrationally strong fear.
   
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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeve View Post
Define: homophobic

prejudiced against homosexual people

a person who hates or fears homosexual people

A range of negative attitudes and feelings towards LGBTQ people. Definitions refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and irrational fear.

I say that it CAN be the irrational fear of homosexuals. But it is not limited to that definition. It can be hate, antipathy, contempt, and prejudice towards homosexuals.

Coretta Scott King said "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."
Your definition isn't accurate at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
ho·mo·pho·bi·a

(noun)
unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality.
   
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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 05:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeve View Post
Define: homophobic

prejudiced against homosexual people

a person who hates or fears homosexual people

A range of negative attitudes and feelings towards LGBTQ people. Definitions refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and irrational fear.

I say that it CAN be the irrational fear of homosexuals. But it is not limited to that definition. It can be hate, antipathy, contempt, and prejudice towards homosexuals.

Coretta Scott King said "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."
Homophobia is a fear of homosexuals, that's what the word means. It has been twisted into some nasty meaning that is bigiotry or racism or contempt. It's not used correctly and makes the population that is truly homophobic feel as though their phobia is wrong, which overall is the same predjudice that gays face. It makes gays who use homophobia in the wrong way hypocritical.

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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maloo View Post


Your definition isn't accurate at all.

I can google a definition like anyone else. I got those definitions from:

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu which says: prejudiced against homosexual people

Wikipedia: Homophobia is a term used to refer to a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards lesbian and gay and in some cases bisexual, transgender people and behaviour although these are usually covered under biphobia and transphobia.

Translation Dictionary: Any attitude, action or institutional structure which systematically treats an individual or group of individuals differently because of their sexual orientation

Miriam-Webster: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

Dictionary.com: unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality.
   
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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:03 PM

I don't think you're understanding the "phobia" part. That's Justin's whole point here. The uncontrollable fear part of it, not the acts of discrimination.
   
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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:04 PM

Maloo: You got it. It's a fear not a negative act.

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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:07 PM

I termed the word. That's what it means. It doesn't matter if it has -phobia in it, it still means more than that. It means something more than an irrational fear. In a British European Parliament resolution on homophobia in Europe (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/...ML&language=EN)

Quote:
whereas homophobia can be defined as an irrational fear of and aversion to homosexuality and to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people based on prejudice and similar to racism, xenophobia, anti-semitism and sexism,

whereas homophobia manifests itself in the private and public spheres in different forms, such as hate speech and incitement to discrimination, ridicule and verbal, psychological and physical violence, persecution and murder, discrimination in violation of the principle of equality and unjustified and unreasonable limitations of rights, which are often hidden behind justifications based on public order, religious freedom and the right to conscientious objection,
   
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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:12 PM

"Thanks a lot" is a term used to describe being grateful. When said sarcastically it become a rude expression. It doesn't matter that it has "Thanks" in it.

Honestly the useage (Or rather mis-useage) or a word doesn't change it's original meaning.

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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:21 PM

There's the word, and then what people use to describe it as. Homophobia has come to mean prejudice and discrimination based on sexual orientation, Transphobia is the same but with transgender people. Maeve is correct on her definition, as that is what people use it to mean.

Considering that is what it has come to mean, yes, homophobia and transphobia is extremely wrong.


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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:27 PM

What describes a fear of homosexuals then? There is nothing wrong with having a phobia of a homosexual person. They cannot control their fears. The word may be now used to mean discrimination based on sexual orientation, but that is a slang usage, and as I said in my post:

"If anyone says "I hate gays!" imediately they brand that person "Homophobic" as though implying there is something to fear, and the only reason someone would say anything against gays is because they fear them, as though gays will kill them in their sleep. It doesn't make sense."

Because you are anti-gay does not create a fear of them, and stating something is a factual dictionary definition rather than a slang term does not make it true. (Which is what maeve seemed to be doing)

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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
"Thanks a lot" is a term used to describe being grateful. When said sarcastically it become a rude expression. It doesn't matter that it has "Thanks" in it.

Honestly the useage (Or rather mis-useage) or a word doesn't change it's original meaning.

- Justin
So 'faggot' still means 'a bundle of sticks' to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sythan View Post
There's the word, and then what people use to describe it as. Homophobia has come to mean prejudice and discrimination based on sexual orientation, Transphobia is the same but with transgender people. Maeve is correct on her definition, as that is what people use it to mean.
Thank you!
   
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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
What describes a fear of homosexuals then? There is nothing wrong with having a phobia of a homosexual person. They cannot control their fears. The word may be now used to mean discrimination based on sexual orientation, but that is a slang usage, and as I said in my post:

"If anyone says "I hate gays!" imediately they brand that person "Homophobic" as though implying there is something to fear, and the only reason someone would say anything against gays is because they fear them, as though gays will kill them in their sleep. It doesn't make sense."

Because you are anti-gay does not create a fear of them, and stating something is a factual dictionary definition rather than a slang term does not make it true. (Which is what maeve seemed to be doing)

- Justin
"Homophobia is a term used to refer to a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards lesbian and gay and in some cases bisexual, transgender people and behaviour although these are usually covered under biphobia and transphobia. Intersex and asexual people are also sometimes included. Definitions refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and irrational fear. Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination and violence on the basis of a perceived homosexual or in some cases any non-heterosexual orientation. In a 1998 address, author, activist, and civil rights leader Coretta Scott King stated that "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."


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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeve View Post
So 'faggot' still means 'a bundle of sticks' to you?
Yes, because that is the correct usage. However I will not call someone a "bundle of sticks" neither will I call them faggot.


I can identify the different usages, but this doesn't mean that the dictionary definition of the word changes, nor does it mean that is wrong to be a bundle of sticks, because it was a harmless word that evolved.

Homophobia is a harmless word that was evolved as well. It doesn't change the fact that as a base word with no slang or misuaged it is harmless and not wrong.

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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:39 PM

If you could respond to my post that would be great


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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:40 PM

You didn't cite a source for it...

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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
You didn't cite a source for it...

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Does it matter that I do? Wikipedia would be the source.


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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:43 PM

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Does it matter that I do? Wikipedia would be the source.
Well yes, "Websters Dictionary" versus "The Urban Dictionary" is a big difference...

Anyhow, wikipedia only defined the slang term for it. Not the correct usage. I understand what the word is used for, but it's not it's meaning. The correct word for the statements made above is "Anti-Gay".

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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
Well yes, "Websters Dictionary" versus "The Urban Dictionary" is a big difference...

Anyhow, wikipedia only defined the slang term for it. Not the correct usage. I understand what the word is used for, but it's not it's meaning. The correct word for the statements made above is "Anti-Gay".

- Justin
Anti-gay is the exact thing homophobic has come to mean in this society. Doesn't matter if it's slang, it's how the majority of the people use it.

http://www.adl.org/hate-patrol/homophobia.asp


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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:50 PM

And that is fine a lot of people misuse the word. It doesn't change the meaning. Hetrosexualism is another phrase that better describes prejudice against gays.

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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 06:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
And that is fine a lot of people misuse the word. It doesn't change the meaning. Hetrosexualism is another phrase that better describes prejudice against gays.

- Justin
Heterosexualism: A sexual attraction to (or sexual relations with) persons of the opposite sex. heterosexuality, straightness. (The free dictionary)

That doesn't mean prejudice in the slightest, it just means a heterosexual person .


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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 07:01 PM

Spelling error. Hetrosexism is what I meant. Sorry about that.

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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 07:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sythan View Post
Heterosexualism: A sexual attraction to (or sexual relations with) persons of the opposite sex. heterosexuality, straightness. (The free dictionary)

That doesn't mean prejudice in the slightest, it just means a heterosexual person .
Possibly Justin meant Heterosexism, which "refers to a system of negative attitudes, bias, and discrimination in favour of opposite-sex sexual orientation and relationships (Jung, Patricia Beattie; Smith, Ralph F. (1993). Heterosexism: An Ethical Challenge)

This word is better because... it shows more semantic transparency while not including -phobia. This makes it a better alternative to homophobia however it still means the same thing as homophobia which has also come to mean these things (egative attitudes, bias, and discrimination, etc). But no one uses it, obviously, despite the word being used in the Jung's paper on it in the 90's.

Last edited by Daivia; August 18th 2011 at 07:17 PM. Reason: Rewording
   
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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 07:07 PM

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In a 1998 address, author, activist, and civil rights leader Coretta Scott King stated that "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood."
Justin probably never responded to this because it was already said in the 3rd post of this thread. Word for word.

This is basically a huge argument about the denotative and connotative definitions of words.
   
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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 07:07 PM

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Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
Spelling error. Hetrosexism is what I meant. Sorry about that.

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Heterosexism is an umbrella term. Under the category of Heterosexism, lies; Biphobia, Homophobia, Gender Binary, Heteronormativity, and Transphobia.

Considering Homophobia lies within Heterosexism, it can be used to personify what people already use it to mean, prejudice and discrimination based on sexual orientation.


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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 07:18 PM

Yes, but I feel that Hetrosexism is a better term to use.

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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 07:22 PM

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Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
Yes, but I feel that Hetrosexism is a better term to use.

- Justin
It wouldn't make any sense though, it means too many things. If you're a Heterosexist, that could mean you have prejudice or discrimination for those who are homosexual, people who are transgender, those who don't follow the Gender Binary, or those who are Bisexual. If you just hate Homosexuals or Transgenders, you wouldn't say you're a Heterosexist, you would say you are a Homophobic or Transphobic person.


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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 08:01 PM

Homophobia



Oxford English Dictionary: an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.

Dictionary.com: Unreasoning fear of or antipathy towards homosexuals and homosexuality.

  • Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
  • Behavior based on such a feeling.
Merriam Webster: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals



There is no consensus on the actual meaning, however it is used to mean hatred of homosexuals, as nobody fears them. Phobia isn't always used to mean a fear of, for instance Islamophobia isn't necessarily a fear of Islam, it's a hatred.
   
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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 09:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
"Thanks a lot" is a term used to describe being grateful. When said sarcastically it become a rude expression. It doesn't matter that it has "Thanks" in it.

Honestly the useage (Or rather mis-useage) or a word doesn't change it's original meaning.

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Yes it does; that's how languages evolve. If what you said were true, then "awful" would still mean something inspiring, something "egregious" would still be exceptionally good, and "gay" would still mean happy and carefree. Language isn't a school test to which there are unchanging right and wrong answers; it's a means of communication. If all parties understand the meaning of a word, then it is serving its purpose.


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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 09:39 PM

Even if you look at homophobia as an irrational fear of homosexuals... I still think that's wrong. The fact that they can't control it is irrelevant. Lying is wrong even if you are a compulsive liar. Being drunk (and therefore unable to control yourself) isn't an excuse for drink-driving or assault.

Plus you are assuming that all homosexuals "hate" homophobics. That's not true either. If anyone was truly diagnosed as being homophobic (which I think would be ridiculously rare), then no one would hate them for it. But do you have any evidence that this is a true phobia with reported cases?



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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 09:40 PM

Even if you look at homophobia as an irrational fear of homosexuals... I still think that's wrong. The fact that they can't control it is irrelevant. Lying is wrong even if you are a compulsive liar. Being drunk (and therefore unable to control yourself) isn't an excuse for drink-driving or assault.

Plus you are assuming that all homosexuals "hate" homophobics. That's not true either. If anyone was truly diagnosed as being homophobic (which I think would be ridiculously rare), then no one would hate them for it. But do you have any evidence that this is a true phobia with reported cases?



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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 09:40 PM

This does raise a very interesting point on how the word "phobia" has been manipulated into something it isn't. It's also dawned on me just how nonsensical "homophobia" is as a term, because if you take it back to the original Greek terminology (which is where phobia comes from, as phobos), "homophobia" would actually mean "fear of people of the same gender" and not "fear of homosexuals". Islamophobia is marginally better from a philological perspective but still doesn't make a great deal of sense as a concept any more than fear of any idea - "evolutiophobia", for example. It does make you wonder how much we really understand the nature of the language we rely upon every day in English-speaking parts of the world.

Anyway, I digress. In the context it is most commonly used in (however flawed it is linguistically), homophobia is indistinguishable from anti-homosexuality, and as such is not really justifiable. Were homophobia really the fear of homosexuals in the same manner as fear of spiders et al, then perhaps it could be more justifiable; however, phobias still operate on the grounds of there being a threat or danger posed by the object of the phobia (spiders bite and can be poisonous, falling from great heights can and will kill you and so on). That does not work as well in the case of homosexuals. So overall, I don't buy it.


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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 09:51 PM

Being homophobic is wrong, in my mind. I have reasoning behind other than "All gay people should be accepted." Homophobia is just another forum of ignorance. The only reason people are afraid of gay people is because they are judgmental of them, and assume them to be different than everybody else. That's ignorant, and ignorance is what causes violence. Homophobic people might not always be anti gay, but in my mind they are one step away, because they both have one thing in common; ignorance.





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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 18th 2011, 10:58 PM

I tend to go by the actual definition of a phobia, which is an irrational and potentially debilitating fear of a given object, event or idea (for example, arachnophobia is an irrational fear of spiders).

Under this definition, I believe that actual, true homophobia is very rare. Hatred, disgust and bigotry are all common contributing factors to discrimination and harassment of gays, but homophobia should (by nature of true phobic reactions) cause the homophobic person to try to avoid people who are gay or who they believe are gay, so as to avoid confronting what they fear and deem as something dangerous to their own personal well-being.


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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 19th 2011, 12:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Xujhan View Post
"awful".
Awful has dual meanings. Pherhaps this is the same with Homophobic?

Devil: I understand that. My point is that a fear of homosexuals is not wrong. However rare they might be they are afraid and cannot help it.

People are afraid of oranges, cotton, balloons (my sister is actually terrified of balloons. In the hospital she was born in they did tests on her because she was premature, they were testing her hearing by making loud noises, balloons popping have scared her ever since...) It's not rational but it doesn't change their fear of them. Not all fears are irrational, having a fear isn't irrational. Therefore there is nothing wrong with being homophobic.

Afterlife: Good point. However if people are afraid of oranges, cotton balls or balloons, is this any different? These are things that do not pose a threat but still frighten people. It's a disorder or mental trigger. It cannot be helped.

I love how people are attacking me with anti-gay messages claiming "These people misuse the word as well, but it has a slang meaning!" I get that. The word has a slang meaning, which is not the useage I was using.

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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 19th 2011, 12:41 AM

Slang becomes part of the language in time, this is how languages develop organically. Homophobia has developed to mean hatred of homosexuals/homosexuality. If you ask someone what it means, that's what they'll say. Ask *anyone* and that's what they'll say.
   
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Re: Homophobia is not wrong. - August 19th 2011, 01:09 AM

Also, I think having a 'phobia' of people is rather different from having a phobia of animals or situations. I disagree with Dave's analysis because I've always thought (like Casey) that the definition of a phobia is that it is irrational. If you're afraid of a poisonous spider that might kill you, thats not a phobia, thats survival :P But if you're genuinely afraid of someone (however rare this may be) then you're likely to treat them differently, whether you try to or not. So in that case I'd say its a phobia you'd have to deal with; as in, get over it so you don't offend people.

But yeah, no-one uses homophobia in the very literal sense anyway. (Although I did have a gay friend who wore a t-shirt saying 'heterophobe'.. this amused me greatly :P)
   
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