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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 01:42 AM

This thread has been labeled as triggering, particularly on the subject of rape or abuse, by the original poster or by a Moderator. The contents of this thread might therefore not be suitable for certain sensitive users. Please take this into consideration before continuing to read.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...905230642.html

Thoughts?

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BULLSHIT. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN FEMINISM REPLACES EGALITARIANISM. ABSO-FUCKING-LUTE BULLSHIT.

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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 03:32 AM

This is what happens when we have a president worse then Jimmy Carter.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ✖Truth✖ View Post
This is what happens when we have a president worse then Jimmy Carter.
Wow, so hostile towards someone who has to face so many problems. Want to swap leaders? You can have Australia's drongo.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 03:57 PM

Oh hey there Feminism! Lovely day isn't it?
   
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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 07:16 PM

I love how this thread is being mostly ignored.


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I hope I will get the chance to be someone, to be human.





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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 07:28 PM

That would mean admitting that Feminism is causing huge problems. Most people don't want to do that. Men because they'll be called sexists and women because it'll mean giving up their privileges. It'll happen one day hopefully.
   
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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 10:06 PM

This is absolute idiocy! Many of you know that I am very supportive of harsh punishments for rape and such, but I am also very strict as to my interpretation of the law, and at no point have ever suggested that "Well they seem guilty, best we just go with that'". The concept of "more likely then not" is horrible when it involves any sort of felony. Another point, do you think they would believe a male student if he reported that he was raped by a girl on campus?


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 10:32 PM

Honestly, I'm confused about what the article is saying. It sounds like they are saying that college staff etc. are responsible for deciding whether someone is guilty of rape. Which makes no sense; rape is a crime and should be dealt with by police and other legal authorities.

But rape accusations do need to be taken more seriously. As it is, the victim usually suffers more in rape cases and investigations than the accused does. In most cases, there is no conviction - not because it was a false accusation, but because the victim can often not handle having to relive the event over and over, deal with people blaming him/her, and so on. The way that rape victims are treated by the police, people who hear about the case, other officials is honestly pathetic.

Rape is the most under-reported crime. Most people don't even know what is rape or sexual assault and what isn't. The whole thing is just swept under the rug. So I do think that more education about rape would be a wonderful thing. And a lot more of it does need to be directed at males - it's not sexist; almost 100% of rapists are male. Yet we always tell women that they shouldn't "dress slutty" or "meet a guy alone". It's not logical to blame the victims or make them feel like the one in the wrong, yet that's what keeps happening.

I definitely don't agree with colleges taking matters into their own hands with rape cases. But I don't see the problem with doing something better when it comes to rape cases since the current system is not working or helping anyone.



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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 10:54 PM

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Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie View Post
And a lot more of it does need to be directed at males - it's not sexist; almost 100% of rapists are male.
Ahem. Proof?

Actually, this seems to be epitomy of feminism. It is an ENTIRELY sexist claim, don't deny it. You seem to be forgetting that statutory rape IS rape; and despite what YOU think, many women do commit statutory rape and are charged with it.

You're also being hypocritical. Rape of men by women, or women by women, often results in double standards (exactly what YOU have at the moment). The National Center for Victims of Crime describes this as:

Quote:
It is not uncommon for a male rape victim to blame himself for the rape, believing that he in some way gave permission to the rapist (Brochman, 1991). Male rape victims suffer a similar fear that female rape victims face -- that people will believe the myth that they may have enjoyed being raped. Some men may believe they were not raped or that they gave consent because they became sexually aroused, had an erection, or ejaculated during the sexual assault. These are normal, involuntary physiological reactions. It does not mean that the victim wanted to be raped or sexually assaulted, or that the survivor enjoyed the traumatic experience. Sexual arousal does not necessarily mean there was consent.

...

Another major concern facing male rape victims is society's belief that men should be able to protect themselves and, therefore, it is somehow their fault that they were raped. The experience of a rape may affect gay and heterosexual men differently. Most rape counselors point out that gay men have difficulties in their sexual and emotional relationships with other men and think that the assault occurred because they are gay, whereas straight men often begin to question their sexual identity and are more disturbed by the sexual aspect of the assault than the violence involved (Brochman, 1991).
I urge you not to be so naive, and to be a bit more sensitive.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 11:16 PM

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Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie View Post
Honestly, I'm confused about what the article is saying. It sounds like they are saying that college staff etc. are responsible for deciding whether someone is guilty of rape. Which makes no sense; rape is a crime and should be dealt with by police and other legal authorities.


This article has nothing to do with the US juridical system, purely campus action on report/conviction of a sexual assault.
   
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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 11:33 PM

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Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie View Post
Honestly, I'm confused about what the article is saying.

...

But I don't see the problem with doing something better when it comes to rape cases since the current system is not working or helping anyone.
I have a feeling that these two statements are not merely coincidental.

Essentially, the rights of the person accused of committing the crime are cut short; the outcome of his case dependent on people who likely don't have any sort of firm background in evidential analysis, and who may subject the accused to their own personal prejudices and inclinations.

Quote:
Yet to deliver a verdict of guilty, they need only believe that the accused is more likely than not to have committed the crime.
Does this seem to you like a system that is improving?
   
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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 11:45 PM

I agree with SimmeringFaerie. Rape is a criminal action--therefore the legal proceedings for that action belong in a court of law with a fair trial. If the campus wants to discipline their student, that's their right, but they also need to be tried in court.

Quote:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
If, in cases of rape on University campuses, the accused are being denied the right to a fair trial, then this move is in complete violation of the 6th amendment of the constitution and could be easily overturned by the Supreme Court.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 11:50 PM

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This article has nothing to do with the US juridical system, purely campus action on report/conviction of a sexual assault.
..........
   
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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 22nd 2011, 11:55 PM

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..........
Well it seems to me that they should be disciplining their students AFTER they are found guilty of assault in a court of law. Otherwise, they will be disciplined unfairly.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 23rd 2011, 12:10 AM

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Well it seems to me that they should be disciplining their students AFTER they are found guilty of assault in a court of law. Otherwise, they will be disciplined unfairly.
The doctrine of "innocent until proven guilty" (at least, where I live this is the case) doesn't necessarily apply to all judicial systems, including punitive tribunals of schools and universities. It would be similar to if an employee of a large firm was accused of rape; the employer would deal with it swiftly so tension and other factors won't have too much of an impact on employee and organisational satisfaction/reputation (student and university/school).

I mean, come on. It's well within their right to internally investigate and punish these matters, even before due process takes place.

Linux Penguin, you can do BOTH you know - just because people are protected by their right to have access to judicial process, and the right to a fair and speedy trial, does not mean that other steps cannot be taken to investigate the matter. This type of story isn't typically unheard of.

EDIT: I've also heard of Universities refusing students because of prior accusations (and even acquittals) to their name, though I can't remember exact stories.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 23rd 2011, 12:13 AM

Frankly though, if I was a University student, and I got reported for sexual assault by some girl that just wanted to get back at me, and I was expelled from school, only to be found 100% innocent by a jury, I would be rather pissed at the University.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 23rd 2011, 12:28 AM

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Frankly though, if I was a University student, and I got reported for sexual assault by some girl that just wanted to get back at me, and I was expelled from school, only to be found 100% innocent by a jury, I would be rather pissed at the University.
Not to mention that schools shouldn't have any right to punish someone for a criminal offense, their jurisdiction should be academically only.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 23rd 2011, 12:30 AM

Well, I don't mind them disciplining someone AFTER they are found guilty, but beforehand it's stupid.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 23rd 2011, 12:41 AM

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Well, I don't mind them disciplining someone AFTER they are found guilty, but beforehand it's stupid.
That seems odd, the courts are already punishing you, what right does the school have to punish you, especially if it happened off campus?


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 23rd 2011, 12:46 AM

Off campus, I agree, but I feel that a school should be able to punish me for my actions on campus if I have been found guilty.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 23rd 2011, 01:56 AM

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And a lot more of it does need to be directed at males - it's not sexist; almost 100% of rapists are male.
.
[Citation needed]

I also suppose you believe 90% domestic abusers are male?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie View Post
Yet we always tell women that they shouldn't "dress slutty" or "meet a guy alone". It's not logical to blame the victims or make them feel like the one in the wrong, yet that's what keeps happening.


Common sense is not sexist.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 23rd 2011, 07:53 AM

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Not to mention that schools shouldn't have any right to punish someone for a criminal offense, their jurisdiction should be academically only.
I don't think it's too outrageous to say that, despite what you think, expelling someone for simply being charged with an indictable offence is a fair call. Imagine the splash back on the University's reputation, or the fear from some students that adequate security isn't in place, or if students start to fear this student simply because he has been charged and not (as of yet) found guilty. I think, with the correct process of tribunals and hearings, a school is well within their right to conduct their own investigation into the matter; infact, I encourage it.

Let me put a hypothetical situation to you: a student is being physically bullied (outside of high school; otherwise known as harassment and/or assault), and with a lack of proof and merely circumstantial evidence, is the school board allowed to enquire and take action on the bully, independently from a police investigation? If not, can you comprehend the amount of civil cases that would be brought before a court? I don't see any dispute about an institutions' jurisdictions regarding these kinds of matters.

That being said, I think throwing out due process completely is unethical.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 23rd 2011, 11:58 PM

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I don't think it's too outrageous to say that, despite what you think, expelling someone for simply being charged with an indictable offence is a fair call. Imagine the splash back on the University's reputation, or the fear from some students that adequate security isn't in place, or if students start to fear this student simply because he has been charged and not (as of yet) found guilty. I think, with the correct process of tribunals and hearings, a school is well within their right to conduct their own investigation into the matter; infact, I encourage it.

Let me put a hypothetical situation to you: a student is being physically bullied (outside of high school; otherwise known as harassment and/or assault), and with a lack of proof and merely circumstantial evidence, is the school board allowed to enquire and take action on the bully, independently from a police investigation? If not, can you comprehend the amount of civil cases that would be brought before a court? I don't see any dispute about an institutions' jurisdictions regarding these kinds of matters.

That being said, I think throwing out due process completely is unethical.
No, they have no right to poke into people's private matters, off campus, not engaged in any school based function. Also, assault should be reported to the police because it is a crime, a school may punish something if it is within their jurisdiction, such as an assault on school grounds before contacting the police, they should not be able to suspend/expel/punish a student for behavior out of school. For example, if I go to Mexico and get into a fight with someone, I will be punished by the Mexican Court system, the American courts have no jurisdiction outside of their "property".


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 24th 2011, 12:58 AM

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No, they have no right to poke into people's private matters, off campus, not engaged in any school based function. Also, assault should be reported to the police because it is a crime, a school may punish something if it is within their jurisdiction, such as an assault on school grounds before contacting the police, they should not be able to suspend/expel/punish a student for behavior out of school. For example, if I go to Mexico and get into a fight with someone, I will be punished by the Mexican Court system, the American courts have no jurisdiction outside of their "property".
I do totally agree with it being unethical (let alone possibly unlawful - it's not here, at least), but I disagree that the school should not have any course of action at all. Yes, it is a crime and yes, the police should be notified, but not having any course of action renders the school powerless over their students' actions, and in the case where someone should be found guilty of committing a crime, the school MUST allow them to stay in school?

I think it's outrageous to say that people should not also be "let go" from a position at an institution, as well as going through the proper judicial process.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 24th 2011, 02:12 AM

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I do totally agree with it being unethical (let alone possibly unlawful - it's not here, at least), but I disagree that the school should not have any course of action at all. Yes, it is a crime and yes, the police should be notified, but not having any course of action renders the school powerless over their students' actions, and in the case where someone should be found guilty of committing a crime, the school MUST allow them to stay in school?

I think it's outrageous to say that people should not also be "let go" from a position at an institution, as well as going through the proper judicial process.
Well if they get put in jail, obviously they won't be going to school, but what are we going to say, that they should just be handed off to another public school? That doesn't make any sense.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 25th 2011, 02:35 AM

Erm, Due Process is part of the 14th Amendment. They can not decide to ignore that right. Everyone is entitled to Due Process under the law.

However, let me say this. I'm not sure that it has anything to do with feminism at all. I go to a private college, so as we do not get federal funding, we can do as we please. I seriously doubt my school would bypass due process at all.(Besides the fact that sexual assault is rare on my campus.) It seems to me that they might be trying to get most universities to act quicker on rape or assault cases. Men and women get assault daily, and if it happens on a state university campus, it is less likely to be handled quickly. Besides that, universities have their own system for handling incidence on campus and sometimes will not even contact the police to protect their school from losing credibility. Although I do not agree with this article at all, I could understand if they were trying to get universities to report crimes, instead of covering them up. But then again, I'm not sure if that is the reason or if they are just being stupid pigs.


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Re: Pressured by the Obama administration, universities abandon any pretense of due process in sexual assault cases. - August 25th 2011, 12:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey. View Post
Erm, Due Process is part of the 14th Amendment. They can not decide to ignore that right. Everyone is entitled to Due Process under the law.
The 14th amendment; Section 1 states that the "State" (Federal, State, County, Municipality, etc) could not "deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law". There have been no SCOTUS case laws that I know of that have addressed the public school system and "due process of law" when it comes to punishments from a public school onto a student due to conduct outside the school. Could an arguement be made that the public school is an arm of the government, and as such should fall under some "due process" clause, yes and no with what you are suggesting. in Gross Vs. Lopez an Ohio district court stated;

Quote:
"Having chosen to extend the right to an education to people of appellate class generally, Ohio may not withdraw that right on grounds of misconduct, absent fundamentally fair procedures to determine whether the misconduct has occurred, and must recognize a student's legitimate entitlement to a public education as a property interest that is protected by the Due Process Clause, and that may not be taken away for misconduct without observing minimum procedures required by that Clause."
Or in other words, the school district did not give the student an appeals process, which violated their right.
   
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