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September 20th 2011, 11:42 AM

I think, before joining the "dabate", everyone should quickly read through this article from the "Green Guru" to get a clearer idea of the issue.

In my personal opinion, I think two children is the right amount to have. One to replace each parent, which would keep the population steady and decrease the negative effect on the planet/environment. Having three would be one too many (my personal opinion). This article, talks about Nadya Suleman. The first comment on the page is a very good argument.

Another comment states:
"Our goal as a society should be 0% population growth. We already are harming the planet. So I would say, 2 kids is enough. Just because you marry or have children with various partners doesnít mean you should ever have more than 2. Itís selfish.
People with more than 4 kids are self indulgant and irresponsible."
I agree with this.

(N.B I am not in any way attacking people who have more than one child or sibling. Or people who have the belief that God will decide how many children you will have. I'm simply trying to look at it from a biological point of view.)

What are your views on this topic?

Sorry everyone - I've tried typing in the URL for the first article three times, but it still doesn't work. If you want to read this article, type in "Two children should be the limit, says Green Guru" it'll take you to the website.


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Last edited by MegaMadness; September 20th 2011 at 11:52 AM. Reason: merge posts :)
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 20th 2011, 01:53 PM

I would agree that two children maximum should be set. But we'd probably never be able to enforce it, even in the U.S., let alone the rest of the world.
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 20th 2011, 03:55 PM

The problem with setting a limit on childbearing is that you infringe on the natural rights of the citizens of ANY country. Despite the fact that some people do have children irresponsibly (I'm NOT setting a number for what is considered responsible - I'm talking about the number of children they can afford or those people who have kids in order to receive more government benefits), I refuse to allow the government to set any kind of regulations on how many children people should be allowed to have.
2 kids per family would actually cause a population decline if you take families that only have 1 child or couples who decide to not have any kids. Then, of course, you have to consider those families that have triplets, or a singleton and then a set of twins. What do you do when people have more than 2 children? You can't enforce something like that, nor can you punish a family for wanting to share their love with more people.

I absolutely CANNOT condone setting a limit on childbearing. There's nothing about it that could be considered -right- by any means.


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 20th 2011, 04:01 PM

I disagree with setting a limit on how many children parents can have.

First of all, what happens if an accidental pregnancy occurs? Do you believe that there should be an automatic abortion plan for that third child that is birthed?

Second of all, my parents have four kids and while it's stressful sometimes, they raised us well. I have tons of friends who are only children or have one other sibling and their home is just as destructed if not more than the ones with more than two children. The majority of kids in my neighborhood come from families with three or four children and we're all well off.

I completely disagree with the process of limiting the number of children we can have.
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 20th 2011, 04:02 PM

Oh shit wait I'm pregnant with triplets, oh well I've got to get rid of one. Oh darn I'm pregnant with twins but I already have a kid, guess I've got to get rid of one... You see where I'm going here?


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 20th 2011, 04:42 PM

Yeah I can see a lot of people getting upset by this restriction... especially if they're pro-life. And what happens if you have a kid but you divorced the father of that child? Are you still only permitted one kid after that with the new love of your life?
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 20th 2011, 04:50 PM

China already does have a limit, and they are just now realizing that is causing a huge problem. They limit one child and if it isn't a boy the family sends the girl baby to an orphanage to be adopted mainly by others Americans. So, in China's future, they wont be able to reproduce, since boys rule the majority of the population. They are having issues with rape, and with guys kidnapping the few women they have, and there is also an issue with men selling the women. The average classroom in China is like 40 male to about 10 female. Go watch the documentary called "The China's Lost Girls".

So what do we do if a mother has only 2 boys? And some how, years from now, our population ends up like China's. What would you do to resolve it? Limiting the population is not very smart.


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 20th 2011, 07:59 PM

I am NOT trying to say that the goverment should enforce laws on the amount of children each couple has. I mean, look how fucked up China is. What I'm trying to say, is that people should be more responsible and less selfish and ignorant about the number of children they have. It is not a matter of law or trying to control people, it is a matter of being responsible and caring about the environment, which is slowly being destroyed. More people using resources like water and electricity in developed countries causes both to run out quicker. Already only 1% of the world's water is drinkable.


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 20th 2011, 10:33 PM

I think it's a great idea in theory. We should honestly be limiting to 1 child for the next 20 years or so to slim down our population, we're too big as it is. After that limit to 2 and aim for 0% growth.

The problem is it's impossible to enforce and there's so many varying circumstances.. what if you have triplets? What if you have one child but then have twins? It doesn't really work.

That said, if someone can come up with a fair way to enforce it I'm all for it. Honestly, humanity is too big. We're damaging the planet, and most people don't even care. "If I want 6 kids, I'll have six kids, that's my human rights, this piece of paper says so!" isn't good enough. I don't give a shit what a piece of paper says, that isn't what is important - what is important is the priorities. Do your "rights" come first, or the planet and every being on it?
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 20th 2011, 10:51 PM

And I hate Russians, so anyone with a Russian family can have no children, because let's face it, the world would be better without Russians.

And Indian people are all idiots, so they should only have one child, to cut down on stupidity.

Germans are the best though, so they can have up to three children, because they just kick ass...

See where I'm going? It's a slippery slope to start on. Also, WTF is the point of having an earth if we cannot do what we want on it? I'm fine with using less water and dimming the lights, but limiting children? It's pretty easy to start discriminating against people once you forget about human rights.

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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 20th 2011, 10:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
And I hate Russians, so anyone with a Russian family can have no children, because let's face it, the world would be better without Russians.

And Indian people are all idiots, so they should only have one child, to cut down on stupidity.

Germans are the best though, so they can have up to three children, because they just kick ass...

See where I'm going? It's a slippery slope to start on. Also, WTF is the point of having an earth if we cannot do what we want on it? I'm fine with using less water and dimming the lights, but limiting children? It's pretty easy to start discriminating against people once you forget about human rights.

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"WTF is the point of having an earth if we cannot do what we want on it?"


Because we're not the only beings on the planet, because we didn't choose it, because freedom to choose is not necessarily the best thing, because we shouldn't be selfish, we should consider everyones wellbeing as a whole. I think those a pretty good reasons.
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 20th 2011, 11:14 PM

Orphanages will be packed if there was such a law as one child per family. Because, if a family accidentally has 2 kids, they would either be fined and have to give up the child. Imagine being that kid, sitting in an orphanage because your parents made an accident having you and so they wouldn't get into trouble with the law, they threw you out, like you didn't mean anything.

That's a lot like what China is doing, and if we follow in their footsteps, the population is screwed with reproduction.


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 21st 2011, 12:36 AM

Actually you need a 2.1 child ratio per couple to account for mortality before procreation. Ahem, anyway, I think it should be based on Genetic quality instead of "everyone gets two", how about those with suitable genetic defects aren't allowed to have children, that slims up the issue, and helps eliminate mental/physical defects.
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 21st 2011, 01:24 AM

I didn't think that most first world countries had a particularly high birth rate, I thought the problem was with less people dying...

And I fail to see how have more than two children is selfish to be honest >.>
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 21st 2011, 03:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmo View Post
I think it's a great idea in theory. We should honestly be limiting to 1 child for the next 20 years or so to slim down our population, we're too big as it is. After that limit to 2 and aim for 0% growth.

The problem is it's impossible to enforce and there's so many varying circumstances.. what if you have triplets? What if you have one child but then have twins? It doesn't really work.

That said, if someone can come up with a fair way to enforce it I'm all for it. Honestly, humanity is too big. We're damaging the planet, and most people don't even care. "If I want 6 kids, I'll have six kids, that's my human rights, this piece of paper says so!" isn't good enough. I don't give a shit what a piece of paper says, that isn't what is important - what is important is the priorities. Do your "rights" come first, or the planet and every being on it?
Basically this post. I think the single biggest problem that we as humanity face right now is over-population. It's the root of almost every serious problem we have to deal with. If there were a way to deal with it I would be all for it.


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 21st 2011, 03:53 AM

There's not a chance in hell that would ever fly in the US.
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 21st 2011, 03:01 PM

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"WTF is the point of having an earth if we cannot do what we want on it?"


Because we're not the only beings on the planet, because we didn't choose it, because freedom to choose is not necessarily the best thing, because we shouldn't be selfish, we should consider everyones wellbeing as a whole. I think those a pretty good reasons.
Yes, we share the earth with animals and all that crap. But we are the dominate species. Will a bear see a fish and think "It has a family too, let's not kill it!"? No, he eats until he is full, and the bear will father as many children as seen fit. The bear is the dominate species of the forest.

I'm not saying "Who gives a flying-you-know-what about the environment" because we should care. We should try to recylce and use less energy and water. I get that. "Green" products are awesome!

But I don't see why you believe that you can impose our will on someone else because it's simply "Better!". Once you violate human rights because you personally believe it will "better" the earth, you're one step away from killing off the Russians and slimming down India's population.



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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 21st 2011, 07:23 PM

Justin, we are the dominant species, yes. Which is why we should have the brain capacity to HELP the world and SAVE the resources and RESPECT other creatures rather than turn a blind eye on the issue. Just because we are "dominant" does not mean we have the right to use up and destroy everything. How would you feel if the bears suddenly took control and started shooting at us? No, this is not only MY personal opinion, it is a fact that more peoples' needs would be met if there were less people: more resources to go around. Yeah sure. Human Rights. What about animal rights or the planet's RIGHTS? Yes, I believe the planet does have "rights" and if people could see that, I think the world would not be in the state it is in today.


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 22nd 2011, 01:22 AM

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Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
Yes, we share the earth with animals and all that crap. But we are the dominate species. Will a bear see a fish and think "It has a family too, let's not kill it!"? No, he eats until he is full, and the bear will father as many children as seen fit. The bear is the dominate species of the forest.

I'm not saying "Who gives a flying-you-know-what about the environment" because we should care. We should try to recylce and use less energy and water. I get that. "Green" products are awesome!

But I don't see why you believe that you can impose our will on someone else because it's simply "Better!". Once you violate human rights because you personally believe it will "better" the earth, you're one step away from killing off the Russians and slimming down India's population.
I think your assertion that population control would become something to control ethnic groups is, quite honestly, a bit absurd. I don't see where "everyone can have only two children" becomes "Everyone can have two children, except Russians who can't have any and Indians who can only have one".

Though I do think the idea has plenty of other logistical problems. I still think it would be amazing if it were possible.


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 22nd 2011, 01:59 AM

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Justin, we are the dominant species, yes. Which is why we should have the brain capacity to HELP the world and SAVE the resources and RESPECT other creatures rather than turn a blind eye on the issue. Just because we are "dominant" does not mean we have the right to use up and destroy everything. How would you feel if the bears suddenly took control and started shooting at us? No, this is not only MY personal opinion, it is a fact that more peoples' needs would be met if there were less people: more resources to go around. Yeah sure. Human Rights. What about animal rights or the planet's RIGHTS? Yes, I believe the planet does have "rights" and if people could see that, I think the world would not be in the state it is in today.
I totally get what you mean. We shouldn't be hurting the planet, and I'm honestly more of a tree hugger than a lot of people I know. The thing is, I don't feel that limiting our population is the right thing to do. I already stated the moral and ethical problems I see with it, but honestly, the outrage from all societies would prevent a law like this being passed.

I doubt I would like to have two children, but as other people have pointed out, what about having triplets? Or twins in addition to your one child? Abortion? Which again splits the vote even further.



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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 22nd 2011, 02:02 AM

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I think your assertion that population control would become something to control ethnic groups is, quite honestly, a bit absurd. I don't see where "everyone can have only two children" becomes "Everyone can have two children, except Russians who can't have any and Indians who can only have one".

Though I do think the idea has plenty of other logistical problems. I still think it would be amazing if it were possible.
But once we compromise human rights and basic values, what's stopping a corrupt politician or public opinion to take it one step further. I bet we can find enough gay haters to completely wipe them out, because once a certian percentage of the population gets armed and ready to fight for corrupt morals, the rest will follow.

You might think "He's crazy" but look at the Nazis, so many soldiers disagreed, but it was control by fear. Once the Jews were compromised, it continued to the point where they were hunted down.

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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 22nd 2011, 07:05 AM

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But once we compromise human rights and basic values, what's stopping a corrupt politician or public opinion to take it one step further. I bet we can find enough gay haters to completely wipe them out, because once a certian percentage of the population gets armed and ready to fight for corrupt morals, the rest will follow.

You might think "He's crazy" but look at the Nazis, so many soldiers disagreed, but it was control by fear. Once the Jews were compromised, it continued to the point where they were hunted down.

- Justin
I could be wrong but we've been studying the UN Declaration of Human Rights in my Philosophy and Ethics class for the past week, and I don't believe there is a single part in there that states that it's a human right to be able to have as many children as you want. There's a right to Marriage though.


Also, Indian definitely need to be sorted out in terms of population, as does China.
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 22nd 2011, 07:32 AM

Gentlemen, as I have said before, everything can be solved with Eugenics!

If we were to not limit it based on Ethnicity, or something extraneous like that, we could design a system where the people most likely to have genetically strong children would be allowed to reproduce more then the average people, and of course, those with inheritable defects could be chemically castrated, or some other method.

Think about it, less people, with every person being better. Less crime, more food, less addiction to drugs, almost complete removal of mental and physical defects. Ohh what a wonderful world!

   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 22nd 2011, 01:25 PM

Yes, teo kids should be the max, but that'll be difficult to enforce.




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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 22nd 2011, 07:20 PM

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Gentlemen, as I have said before, everything can be solved with Eugenics!

If we were to not limit it based on Ethnicity, or something extraneous like that, we could design a system where the people most likely to have genetically strong children would be allowed to reproduce more then the average people, and of course, those with inheritable defects could be chemically castrated, or some other method.

Think about it, less people, with every person being better. Less crime, more food, less addiction to drugs, almost complete removal of mental and physical defects. Ohh what a wonderful world!



If this could be done without discriminating on race, and we just said "This guy's kids will most likely have serious defects" then I'm not sure I'd be opposed. The only thing I'm not sure I much like is the way you have to go about making this work, ie. chemical castration.
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 22nd 2011, 08:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Guile View Post
Actually you need a 2.1 child ratio per couple to account for mortality before procreation. Ahem, anyway, I think it should be based on Genetic quality instead of "everyone gets two", how about those with suitable genetic defects aren't allowed to have children, that slims up the issue, and helps eliminate mental/physical defects.
not all physical r mental defects are passed down in this way, though




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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 22nd 2011, 09:51 PM

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The only thing I'm not sure I much like is the way you have to go about making this work, ie. chemical castration.[/center]
There is no real way for anything of this nature to work in the US.
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 22nd 2011, 11:07 PM

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If this could be done without discriminating on race, and we just said "This guy's kids will most likely have serious defects" then I'm not sure I'd be opposed. The only thing I'm not sure I much like is the way you have to go about making this work, ie. chemical castration.[/center]
That was just an example, I think there are other methods like vasectomy (that's one, right?), and such.


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Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST View Post

not all physical r mental defects are passed down in this way, though
Of course not, but many are.


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There is no real way for anything of this nature to work in the US.
Well it's wishful thinking, but one can dream, no?
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 23rd 2011, 01:05 AM

I'd personally vote for a tax to be applied on families with more than four children.


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 23rd 2011, 01:56 AM

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I'd personally vote for a tax to be applied on families with more than four children.
How about exponentially increasing taxes starting with free at one child and progressing upward, somewhat rapidly, from there?


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 23rd 2011, 05:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Dr. Gregory House View Post
I absolutely CANNOT condone setting a limit on childbearing. There's nothing about it that could be considered -right- by any means.
...reducing overpopulation and food shortage could be considered right, I think.

Like most people are saying, I think this is good in theory and hard to enforce in practice, particularly in America. On the other hand, I think that most people who point this out miss the fact that there are more options besides "enforced by law" and "nothing". "Encouraged by law" is a much more manageable option, and "encouraged by media" even moreso. Something needn't be written in stone for it to be broadcast as a good idea to the general public.


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 23rd 2011, 06:50 AM

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Originally Posted by TigerTank77 View Post
I'd personally vote for a tax to be applied on families with more than four children.
Oh my god yes please. Except how about this: those with more than three children are taxes much higher. If you only have two children, the government lowers taxes a little bit for you or something. I think encouragement in combination with punishment is far more useful than just punishment.
   
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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 23rd 2011, 01:57 PM

Nah, taxes aren't a punishment, they're to keep the government running. So lowering taxes for people with only two kids would end up bankrupting the government.

I agree with TigerTank though, I mean nothing wrong with big families, but I mean people like the "Dugger family" could be taxed a lot for this. Really anyone with more than four to six children is pushing it. So I think this is much more possible, and offends me much less. As well as it limits the potential for racial descriminiation.

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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 24th 2011, 12:14 PM

I think as long as people can look after their kids and support them, they should be able to have as many as they want.


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 24th 2011, 12:29 PM

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I think as long as people can look after their kids and support them, they should be able to have as many as they want.
But this would have an extremely negative effect on the environment. Long ago, it was okay because they didn't have advanced medical care and such to make people live longer. Nowadays, people are living into their 80's and 90's. Much more carbon footprint on the planet.


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 24th 2011, 12:37 PM

Right, well apparently that for every woman (in the UK) they have 1.95 children, now not to sound silly, but that sounds below 2.1 / 2.0 so why set a limit (in the UK)? (I'm going off the assumption that it won't be much different in most first world countries)

The problem with over population sounds more like the older generation aren't dying fast enough for the younger generation.

So by this logic the sensible thing to do would be to euthanise old people (which would be a lot more controllable than limiting children) OR to invest more time and research to find ways of coping with the growing population.

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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 24th 2011, 03:16 PM

But see, people have moral objections to ethuanasia for the old, but no problem preventing the young, and they fail to see that even if we slim down out population 50%, this means the next generation will be unable to support all of the jobs, because before the limit some families had four, even five children, because the older, retired generation will have been bigger than the new one when the limit is emplaced, creating a social collapse due to the failure to hold all modern jobs. This had obious setbacks.

If our population stays the same, companies and coporation keep growing for a few years to meet consumer demand to make our lives easier, but eventually there will be no more room for economic growth, because no population growth means no new supply or demand, meaning new projects will be impossible to build on, construction workers (Weldiers, electricians, heaters, plumbers etc.) lose their jobs, any unemployed people get no jobs, and no new ones can be created because of lack of supply and demand, eventually the world will grow stagnant with a failing economy.

I just realized in addition to my moral objections, it can cause a economic collapse.

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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 24th 2011, 03:41 PM

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Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
But see, people have moral objections to ethuanasia for the old, but no problem preventing the young, and they fail to see that even if we slim down out population 50%, this means the next generation will be unable to support all of the jobs, because before the limit some families had four, even five children, because the older, retired generation will have been bigger than the new one when the limit is emplaced, creating a social collapse due to the failure to hold all modern jobs. This had obious setbacks.

If our population stays the same, companies and coporation keep growing for a few years to meet consumer demand to make our lives easier, but eventually there will be no more room for economic growth, because no population growth means no new supply or demand, meaning new projects will be impossible to build on, construction workers (Weldiers, electricians, heaters, plumbers etc.) lose their jobs, any unemployed people get no jobs, and no new ones can be created because of lack of supply and demand, eventually the world will grow stagnant with a failing economy.

I just realized in addition to my moral objections, it can cause a economic collapse.

- Justin
So it's a problem because there would be too many jobs and ALSO a problem because it would eliminate a lot of jobs? Perhaps, with some careful planning, both would pretty much work each other out?


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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 24th 2011, 10:11 PM

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So it's a problem because there would be too many jobs and ALSO a problem because it would eliminate a lot of jobs? Perhaps, with some careful planning, both would pretty much work each other out?
Dude, we're talking about America, Canada and the UK, careful planning isn't an option. :/

But anyhow, at first there would be too many jobs, and eventually there will be a major lack of them. Unless the government starting ushering construction workers (Or anyone involved in building construction, like some of the other jobs related that I listed) into other fields where they can be sucessful without an education and can make their former wages of $30-50 dollars per hour, then I see very little issues, the thing is, off the top of my head I don't know any jobs like that.

Anyhow, it was just food for thought.

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Re: "Two children should be the limit" accourding to Green Guru - September 25th 2011, 04:41 AM

I'm going to assume that none of you have read the book(well series) "The Shadow Children". If you had, you would not even be suggesting this. I can see how the U.K might want to limit population growth, and it has been discussed centuries ago, because let's face it, the U.K is an island and not even a big island. Population growth there would not be great. But in places like Alaska or Ohio, places that are huge and can afford to have population expansion, the idea is just bad.

For one, it would not work. Or if it did, we would see a similar problem to that of China. Such as infanticide, selective abortions, and rising numbers of orphans. Do I think that people should not have a ridiculous amount of children? Yes. But just two? No. I think if a person can take care of a child, then they should be able to have them. However, if someone can afford to adopt, I think that would be a good option too. Also, I highly suggest reading the Shadow Children by Margaret Peterson Haddix.


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