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Abortion - September 28th 2011, 04:34 AM

This thread has been labeled as triggering by the original poster or by a Moderator. Please take this into consideration before continuing to read.

I just finished watching a documentary that made an amazing point, and I wanted to share it with you. Since I'm posting it here, I know that debate is allowed and there is always a chance of starting a fight....but I ask that you please at least really think about it before debating against this.

Pro-abortion and pro-choice people often say that abortion is acceptable because they believe that in the early stages it isn't actually a baby yet (even though that is only their opinion because they have no way of knowing for sure when the baby gets a soul or when they become alive). This is how many people condone killing a baby or being okay with other people killing a baby. They often say that it's okay because it is the woman's right and is legal.

In World War 2, Hitler killed millions of Jews. He believed that it was okay because jews "weren't truly human" (even though that was only his opinion because he had no proof of that). This is how he condoned killing those people. He said that it was okay because it was his legal right (and it was).

Do you see that these two acts are exactly the same? So why is abortion so acceptable while what Hitler did is known as horrible? Yes Hitler killed out of anger and most people who have abortions don't....but does that mean that it's always okay to kill as long as you aren't doing it out of anger? That doesn't seem right.

This is a quick little thought from the video; the rest of it can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2Ks...player_embedde

Last edited by Casey.; September 28th 2011 at 06:53 AM. Reason: Labelling triggering for the content of the clip.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 04:42 AM

I hardly think you can compare abortion to genocide.

Have you considered the woman's reasons for choosing abortion? Everyone has a reason and often it is not easy for a woman to go through with it. I personally believe that women have a right to make decisions for themselves regarding their reproductive health and that we shouldn't be guilt-tripping them by telling them they're killing their unborn children. We cannot understand every situation and it would be unreasonable to expect someone to but there is such a thing as compassion.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:05 AM

I agree with above.

You can't say what made these woman choose abortion for their child. Or lack thereof. A baby is not a baby within the first few weeks. It is an egg, and embryo. And does not become a baby until about the 4th month.

Woman have the legal right to choose abortion for themselves. If they couldn't, it would be illegal, and surely, it's not. Woman make this choice because maybe they can't support a child financially, but can't give it up for adoption knowing their child was somewhere in the world being taken care of by another family. Maybe she chose abortion because she was raped, and couldn't deal with a daily reminder of what happened to her.

Abortion is our right, and we can choose what we want. Sure, there will be people telling you otherwise, and we're all entitled to an opinion. This is mine. And, I whole heartedly stick by the fact that woman should be able to choose what they want with their bodies.











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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:07 AM

Women do have a right....and Hitler had a right too. That doesn't make it okay.

You're right that we can't understand every situation and that it is often hard for women who have abortions. However, we can't understand every situation in non-abortion murders either, so does that make it okay? And I do feel sorry for the women who have had abortons, because I know that it was hard for most of them...but that doesn't make it okay.

Also, I don't hate people who have had abortions or anything, because I've done things wrong too (not killing). The point of this thread isn't to make people feel guilty; it's to make people think twice in the future before having an abortion/encouraging someone to have an abortion.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:12 AM

How in the world can you compare women who choose to abort to Hitler?

This is not really a matter of what I think is ok or not either. And this has little to do with you as well. If you feel so strongly about abortions, it is also your right to choose not to get one. Personally, I am pro-choice. I believe every woman has the right to choose what they want with their body. Does that mean I'm pro-abortion? No. Those two are not synonymous with each other. I would not choose to abort if it were the product of consensual sex.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:13 AM

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A baby is not a baby within the first few weeks. It is an egg, and embryo. And does not become a baby until about the 4th month.

Woman have the legal right to choose abortion for themselves. If they couldn't, it would be illegal, and surely, it's not. Woman make this choice because maybe they can't support a child financially, but can't give it up for adoption knowing their child was somewhere in the world being taken care of by another family. Maybe she chose abortion because she was raped, and couldn't deal with a daily reminder of what happened to her.

Abortion is our right, and we can choose what we want. Sure, there will be people telling you otherwise, and we're all entitled to an opinion. This is mine. And, I whole heartedly stick by the fact that woman should be able to choose what they want with their bodies.
Where do you get your information about when a baby becomes a baby? Babies actually have heart beats after 6 weeks. But besides that, you can't say that you know for sure that an embrio doesn't have a soul from the second that it's conceived. You can say that you don't think it does or you don't know....but again, that's the same thing that Hitler did. He said that he didn't believe the people who he killed had souls so it was okay.

Yes, it is a woman's legal right....and it was also legal for Hitler to kill those millions of people. Why is one morally okay and one isn't? And I know that many women have difficult/sad reasons for abortions, but there is always a better option. There are very few situations that adoption couldn't fix. Plus, does that make it okay to kill a baby/child for financial reasons or because of rape AFTER they are born? And if you say no, why? Because they are alive now? And if so, that brings us back to the first point...how do you know they're not alive when you kill them inside of the womb?

Again, this is not to condem anyone who has had an abortion- it's to make people think before having one/supporting one in the future.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:17 AM

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How in the world can you compare women who choose to abort to Hitler?


This is not really a matter of what I think is ok or not either. And this has little to do with you as well. If you feel so strongly about abortions, it is also your right to choose not to get one. Personally, I am pro-choice. I believe every woman has the right to choose what they want with their body. Does that mean I'm pro-abortion? No. Those two are not synonymous with each other. I would not choose to abort if it were the product of consensual sex.
I can compare the two because they are both killing and then condoning it by saying that the person they killed weren't really alive to begin with- even when they don't have proof of that. And yes I do understand that a woman who has an abortion isn't usually as hateful and angry as Hitler was, and did it for different reasons....that doesn't make her actions okay though.

And I know that there is a difference between pro-abortion and pro-choice. I never said there wasn't.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:18 AM

You can't compare that so if a girl gets raped she had to have the baby even if she is like 12 you expect her to go through with it ppk calling her a slut and judging her yeah I had an abortion I felt bad just because women have an abortion dozent mean we didn't care we weren't ready if it may have been rape or a mistake but it doesnt mean we are like whatever. I still hurt till this day about it but I couldnt have delivered that child call it selfish my opinion think from different perspectives you may not fully understand till it happes




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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:22 AM

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Do you see that these two acts are exactly the same? So why is abortion so acceptable while what Hitler did is known as horrible? Yes Hitler killed out of anger and most people who have abortions don't....but does that mean that it's always okay to kill as long as you aren't doing it out of anger? That doesn't seem right.
They really are not even remotely close to the same thing. There is no logical comparison between the Holocaust and abortion.

Abortion is usually done on terms of physical and/or emotional and/or financial need. I can guarantee you that there are absolutely zero women who WANT an abortion. To say that a woman wants an abortion is equivalent to saying that she intended to get pregnant in the first place so she'd have what you seem to think is an easy and painless choice to make, which could (circumstantially) mean that she also "wanted" to get raped, assaulted, or otherwise impregnated in ways that were either against her will or as a result of the opposite of what she had planned.

A fertilized egg isn't a baby for quite some time. An early-stage abortion is little more than digging up a seed before it begins to grow. An embryo is not a baby, no matter how much you imagine it to be.

I believe very firmly that a woman has the right to choose what's best for her body, especially when the stakes for her physical and mental health are so astronomically high. If any given person were to get pregnant and decide against abortion despite great foreboding and fear, that's her choice. Concordantly, if she decided that an abortion was the most logical, safe or reasonable solution, that should also be her choice to make.

Also, Hitler's crusade against Jews, gypsies, gays and other groups wasn't about his anger at them. He did it because it was part of his overall plan for the Third Reich that used public sentiment to stir up anti-Semitic, anti-homosexual feelings already common in the German populace at the time, and direct them more poignantly in order to gain popularity. Just a side note.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:25 AM

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I can compare the two because they are both killing and then condoning it by saying that the person they killed weren't really alive to begin with- even when they don't have proof of that. And yes I do understand that a woman who has an abortion isn't usually as hateful and angry as Hitler was, and did it for different reasons....that doesn't make her actions okay though.

And I know that there is a difference between pro-abortion and pro-choice. I never said there wasn't.
How can you determine when life begins?

Not all those who choose to abort think like you are portraying them to be. There are many women who do grieve for the loss of their child afterward. Using words such as killing and comparing it to the acts of a mass murderer is unnecessarily aggressive and quite unfair, honestly.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:27 AM

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You can't compare that so if a girl gets raped she had to have the baby even if she is like 12 you expect her to go through with it ppk calling her a slut and judging her yeah I had an abortion I felt bad just because women have an abortion dozent mean we didn't care we weren't ready if it may have been rape or a mistake but it doesnt mean we are like whatever. I still hurt till this day about it but I couldnt have delivered that child call it selfish my opinion think from different perspectives you may not fully understand till it happes

I definitely know that I can't understand how people feel when they have abortions or how people judge them. I don't mean to say that I can understand their feelings or what they go through. I am sorry for what you went through, because even though I don't agree with the choice you made, I know that you still suffered.

I never claimed to understand the feelings that people go through when they are pregnant in hard situations. I know that it must be hard. That doesn't change my opinion, because there's still always adoption, but I know that it's hard and I feel bad for the women/girls who have been in those situations.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:38 AM

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They really are not even remotely close to the same thing. There is no logical comparison between the Holocaust and abortion.

Abortion is usually done on terms of physical and/or emotional and/or financial need. I can guarantee you that there are absolutely zero women who WANT an abortion. To say that a woman wants an abortion is equivalent to saying that she intended to get pregnant in the first place so she'd have what you seem to think is an easy and painless choice to make, which could (circumstantially) mean that she also "wanted" to get raped, assaulted, or otherwise impregnated in ways that were either against her will or as a result of the opposite of what she had planned.

A fertilized egg isn't a baby for quite some time. An early-stage abortion is little more than digging up a seed before it begins to grow. An embryo is not a baby, no matter how much you imagine it to be.

I believe very firmly that a woman has the right to choose what's best for her body, especially when the stakes for her physical and mental health are so astronomically high. If any given person were to get pregnant and decide against abortion despite great foreboding and fear, that's her choice. Concordantly, if she decided that an abortion was the most logical, safe or reasonable solution, that should also be her choice to make.

Also, Hitler's crusade against Jews, gypsies, gays and other groups wasn't about his anger at them. He did it because it was part of his overall plan for the Third Reich that used public sentiment to stir up anti-Semitic, anti-homosexual feelings already common in the German populace at the time, and direct them more poignantly in order to gain popularity. Just a side note.
Well, if the woman does it because the baby is going to die or be terribly ill anyways, that isn't the same in this argument. I still don't agree with that, because I don't agree with any type of human killing....plus there have been so many times when the doctor says there will likely be something wrong with the baby, but the parents take the chance and keep it, and the baby turns out fine. But anyways, if we're talking about abortion for that reason, that kind doesn't fit into the Hitler argument- you're right about that.

How do you know that an embryo doesn't have a soul? Even if you were agnostic or athiest or anything, you still can't know for 100% certain. It's your belief that it doesn't- just like it was Hitler's belief that Jews didn't have souls. I'm Christian and know that unborn babies have souls because the bible says so, but even if you didn't know that, you can't know for sure that they don't. Plus, it does have a heart beat after only 6 weeks.

And I didn't know that about Hitler's reasons. Thanks for sharing that. That really doesn't change anything with the abortion thing though.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:38 AM

I give this thread 3 days before it gets locked down.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel View Post
How can you determine when life begins?

Not all those who choose to abort think like you are portraying them to be. There are many women who do grieve for the loss of their child afterward. Using words such as killing and comparing it to the acts of a mass murderer is unnecessarily aggressive and quite unfair, honestly.
Exactly! Like I said in the last post, I'm a Christian, so I know that life begins at conception because the bible tells us that we had souls while we were in our mother's wombs....however, if people weren't Christian and didn't know about that, then there ISN'T any way for them to know. How else can you determine when life begins? You can't! Therefor, you can't say that you aren't taking a life in abortion, because you don't know if there is one! Even if someone was agnostic or athiest and didn't believe that people have souls and therefor the baby didn't have a life yet, they can't know for sure. It's an opinion just like it was Hitler's opinon that Jews didn't have souls.

And I know that people who have abortion are often hurting and regret it after. I also know that many people who have abortions are nice people and have a reason for doing so. Those things also apply to people who commit non-abortion murder though...and yet people don't think that is okay.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:47 AM

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Originally Posted by TigerTank77 View Post
I give this thread 3 days before it gets locked down.
If people start fighting or extreme debating, I (being the person who started the thread) would even like it to get locked. I posted this thread to make people think before having abortions, not to fight or offend people who have already had them.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:52 AM

(Warning: My opinion, I got kind of angry writing this, though I want to make sure the author knows: You are completely entitled to your opinion, and I'm completely entitled to mine. I say this all out of respect, and all out of for the sake of arguing. Could be triggering, since I layed out some example situations.)

I'm sorry, but comparing abortion to the holocaust is fairly ridiculous. The definition of genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" and that is not even close to abortion. Abortion is not done out of hatred, racism, and spite, abortion is a last minute scenario done when somebody does not have a better option. The majority of women do not use abortion as a form of birth control, an abortion is usually used when there is no better option. Do you believe a rape victim should have to have their rapist's child the rest of their life? Do you believe a crack addict, not at all interested in recovery, should wait out a full term and have a baby exposed to crack cocaine to live a life going from shelter to shelter is acceptable? What about a woman who has an illness that will risk her life by carrying out a pregnancy? I do not think these are part of "God's plan", if so, God would give them to right to help themselves. Abortion is used only when it is the best option.

Also, as many others have mentioned, what are you saying is human life? What is the line? Is every period half a child you didn't have, and you should be ashamed for not going out and getting pregnant? What about men's sperm, all those sperm wasted not impregnating people? I'm asking a serious question: What is the line? If it's conception, then you also need to know a good percentage of conceived pregnancies are miscarried, just because of stresses to the body. Did all of these women murder? Also, legally, life starts at birth. The census does not include pregnancies. It starts at birth. And really, what kind of value is human life if it starts in the womb anyway? Personally, I think my friends and family are worth more than a fetus, and I'm sorry if you do not think so, but my friends and family can think and speak and have connections to Earth.

Considering abortion is genocide is just absurd, but even consider it murder is a little out of proportion. Calling abortion murder is like calling burning blueprints arson. It's an interrupted work in process.

Let me make one thing clear though: I'm not for abortion. I'm for condoms and contraceptives. I'm for people making smart choices before they get pregnant. But that option needs to be there for people in need.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:55 AM

To be honest, it isn't in our place to tell people what to do. I'm sure most people think about it quite hard and well before they make a decision that is right for them, and if they choose, what is right for the baby. Not everyone has the same priorities and not everyone is ready for the challenges of motherhood. Comparing abortion to the murder of innocent children does not quite help your cause, I'm afraid. As a Catholic I believe in the sanctity of life as well but there are things beyond me such as the right to choose which I believe every woman should have.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 06:00 AM

Also, for the record, as a Jew, I find comparing the holocaust and abortions offensive, for several reasons.

The first and foremost being that fact that you're using it as sob-ridden propaganda to push a political goal.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 06:59 AM

You cannot possibly compare Hitler to abortion. You cannot even compare Mao or Stalin to abortion. Mass murder is not equal to abortion. Abortion has it's benefits. They are not the same thing. They are no where close.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 07:25 AM

That's like comparing Taylor Swift to Zurg...what?

Anyways, haha um, I have a friend who had an abortion because she was very young when she was pregnant. I am not sure if I agree or disagree with abortion as a whole, but if the woman is being smart about it and doing it for the right reasons, then I see it as okay. I'm not sure it's okay to compare Abortions and Hitler. They are two complete different things. Not sure where you are trying to take this discussion either.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 07:53 AM

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In World War 2, Hitler killed millions of Jews. He believed that it was okay because jews "weren't truly human" (even though that was only his opinion because he had no proof of that). This is how he condoned killing those people. He said that it was okay because it was his legal right (and it was).

Do you see that these two acts are exactly the same? So why is abortion so acceptable while what Hitler did is known as horrible? Yes Hitler killed out of anger and most people who have abortions don't....but does that mean that it's always okay to kill as long as you aren't doing it out of anger? That doesn't seem right.

This is the most disgustingly offensive thing I've seen around here for a long time... and Guile's been here for ages!

I attempted to reply to this thread as if it were a regular post but it's kind of like trying to have a conversation with someone who keeps screaming bloody murder and throwing cats at you.

By the way, you may think it is immoral to abort a fetus, but in my opinion you are the immoral one. If you seriously think taking a living, breathing, fully grown human adult/child and ending their life is the same as having an abortion, your moral compass is way off the reservation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
And I know that people who have abortion are often hurting and regret it after. I also know that many people who have abortions are nice people and have a reason for doing so. Those things also apply to people who commit non-abortion murder though...and yet people don't think that is okay.
That's maybe because it's not remotely the same and only fundamentalist bible bashers with no concept of reality or common sense would think it was?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
This is how many people condone killing a baby or being okay with other people killing a baby. They often say that it's okay because it is the woman's right and is legal.
Killing a baby. Hm.

You know you're whole argument is basically you can't know when life begins (except for what the bible tells you, which is where I like to get all of my medical infortmation too) therefore people who get abortions are like Hitler. However if we don't know then you don't know either, so by your logic maybe you're the one who's wrong and just calling people baby killers for the hell of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
they have no way of knowing for sure when the baby gets a soul
Ugh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I'm a Christian, so I know that life begins at conception because the bible tells us that we had souls while we were in our mother's wombs....however, if people weren't Christian and didn't know about that, then there ISN'T any way for them to know.
Oh... the bible said so. Well why didn't you just say?

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Even if someone was agnostic or athiest and didn't believe that people have souls and therefor the baby didn't have a life yet, they can't know for sure. It's an opinion just like it was Hitler's opinon that Jews didn't have souls.
I don't think Jews have souls either. Don't take that out of context- I don't think souls exist. But the difference is that I don't go and kill 6 million people because of it, which is where Hitler's opinions and mine differ a little...


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 08:11 AM

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I just finished watching a documentary that made an amazing point, and I wanted to share it with you. Since I'm posting it here, I know that debate is allowed and there is always a chance of starting a fight....but I ask that you please at least really think about it before debating against this.

Pro-abortion and pro-choice people often say that abortion is acceptable because they believe that in the early stages it isn't actually a baby yet (even though that is only their opinion because they have no way of knowing for sure when the baby gets a soul or when they become alive). This is how many people condone killing a baby or being okay with other people killing a baby. They often say that it's okay because it is the woman's right and is legal.

In World War 2, Hitler killed millions of Jews. He believed that it was okay because jews "weren't truly human" (even though that was only his opinion because he had no proof of that). This is how he condoned killing those people. He said that it was okay because it was his legal right (and it was).

Do you see that these two acts are exactly the same? So why is abortion so acceptable while what Hitler did is known as horrible? Yes Hitler killed out of anger and most people who have abortions don't....but does that mean that it's always okay to kill as long as you aren't doing it out of anger? That doesn't seem right.

This is a quick little thought from the video; the rest of it can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y2Ks...player_embedde
I challenge you, Megan! Provide a reasonable explanation of what pro-choice people actually believe, rather than what pro-life propaganda documentaries have told you they believe. In the spirit of fairness, I'll do the same:

You believe that a fetus is a living human from the moment of conception (having a soul might come into this), and that as a living human it is as entitled to a right life as any fully grown human. Given that status and right, an abortion is as much an act of homicide as any other.

If I'm mistaken somewhere, please correct me, then respond with what you think my general belief is, and more importantly, why I believe it. Once we understand each other, an intelligent debate can begin.

Incidentally: Godwin's Law.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 01:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I'm a Christian, so I know that life begins at conception because the bible tells us
Are you serious? You know that life begins at conception because the Bible says so? Well, the Bible also says I can sell my daughter into slavery, animals have no souls, and shellfish are an abomination.

I am pro-choice, it's a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body, and nobody should have the right to force her otherwise.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 01:50 PM

I don't believe "pro-abortion" and "pro-choice" are the same thing. I don't think abortion should be illegal, do I think women should go out and get them like they get pedicures? Not at all. Would I ever get one? No way in hell, but that's my choice.

I'm also not christian. And the way you worded that makes it sound like everyone that isn't is just wrong and to me that's just ignorant. Unless you can give me 100% solid proof you are completely and totally correct, then that means nothing to me.

As far as comparing it to genocide...not even close. I agree with the people that pointed out your "you don't know when life begins" whole deal.



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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 02:48 PM

Ok here I go...

1. No one is pro-abortion, no one.

2. Something having a soul is a concept, it's not something that's provable. Some people believe in souls some do not therefore you cannot base a law on something that can't be proven and not everyone believes in.

3. While I concede that an embryo (that's what I'm going to call it since the majority of abortions happen during the embryonic stage, it's not even a fetus yet) is human, it is not A human. My liver is human, it's alive, but it doesn't have A life and it's not A human. I can drink to my hearts content and destroy my liver and no one is going to tell me I'm killing a human or destroying a life. An embryo does not have the qualifications to be A life or A human therefore comparing it to out there in the world, living, breathing Jews is highly inaccurate.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 03:37 PM

I'm not one to comment on non psychological issues, but this one caught my eye not only b/c of the obvious inaccuracies, but also the obfuscating reliance on emotion, which is an invitation (whether intentional or not) of a psychological response! Also, I'm not doing this to add to the debate, nor is it a reflection of my views on the subject of abortion. As always, it's an FYI, do with it what you will.

Megan, the abortion issue is a controversial one, but that's largely the result of the vacuum of reality which have (sadly) replaced the facts. What's filled in is raw, unbridled emotion. That often happens (in this case, either thru willful distraction or plain ignorance) by those who wish to impose their views, values or beliefs on everyone else. Sadly, what I'm hearing from you is more of the same, you repeat provocative sound bytes and talking points from fellow believers, but you've got it wrong. It's not about 'Life' (or, heavens! the Holocaust or Adolf Hitler), but rather the rule of law. 'Roe' is, if anything, about Law and the role we believe it plays in our society.

We live in a country ruled by law, not emotion, so the endless debate over 'Life' is a distraction from the core issue that established a women's right to choose in 'Roe v. Wade': Which was a right to privacy. In that Finding, the Court affirmed the right to privacy as implied in the Constitution, they did not address the issue of 'Life', concluding that the many different opinions of when that began meant that they were also unqualified to make a final determination. Also, keeping with the accepted judicial practice of review, yet respecting established (and accepted) standards , they confirmed that the unborn have historically never had 'Rights'. 'Roe' therefore clarified the Constitution on the basic question of 'Privacy', used existing, accepted understanding of pre existing standards (the rights of the unborn), and codified and made uniform a law governing all 50 States concerning abortion (prior to 'Roe' each state had it's own law). It's curious to me that the anti choicer's are typically for smaller government, are stricter Constitutionalists, and are more Libertarian, yet their response to this issue is opposite all three values. So maybe it's about a desire to codify religion and faith, which is also impermissible.

Comparing abortion to mass murder (and the Holocaust in particular) is not only factually and metaphorically incorrect, it's highly grotesque as well. Adolf Hitler did NOT have the right (as you incorrectly state) to exterminate 6 million human beings (and millions more Christians). He might have changed the Law, but that didn't resolve him of responsibility.... simply because there is no doubt that Jews are human and entitled, at the very least, to live. I'll let you retract that bizarre statement that he had no proof that the Jews weren't human.... Jews are, in fact quite human...I know quite a few... he didn't need to demonstrate it either way, it's established fact. What you both are doing here is torturing logic to justify behavior. Religion doesn't define human, it's a mere part of who we/they are. In the abortion debate, we still struggle to define what life is or when it begins, one's religion is not a determining factor.

There are a lot of reasons to wrestle with the 'Life' issue: It helps define who we are as a species, and it clarifies what our obligations are to each other as members of a common species. It doesn't (nor should it) be used to drive a wedge btw'n us, nor should it be used to tear up the very basis of who we are as Americans. There are rules and laws for a reason, it separates us from the barbarians and the dictators, like Adolf Hitler, who felt that he was entitled to impose his own (very distorted and disturbed) values on the rest of society. If anything, the tactics and logic of the Anti Choicers are far more reflective of what he did, even (like Hitler) you believe 'Morality' is on your side.


PM me with the link of the post you'd like me to respond to.

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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 03:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Exactly! Like I said in the last post, I'm a Christian, so I know that life begins at conception because the bible tells us that we had souls while we were in our mother's wombs....however, if people weren't Christian and didn't know about that, then there ISN'T any way for them to know. How else can you determine when life begins? You can't! Therefor, you can't say that you aren't taking a life in abortion, because you don't know if there is one! Even if someone was agnostic or athiest and didn't believe that people have souls and therefor the baby didn't have a life yet, they can't know for sure. It's an opinion just like it was Hitler's opinon that Jews didn't have souls.
This is the most ignorant and offensive thing I've read on TeenHelp. Just because someone isn't Christian they don't have their own beliefs and own idea of when life really starts? Everyone's opinion is different and honestly, it seems to me that you're trying to push your opinions on everyone else. Some people believe life starts at conception, but things happen. Abortion, miscarriage, stillbirth, SIDS, etc. I had a miscarriage, two infact. Does that mean I'm a killer? Because my body couldn't handle the pregnancies? No, it doesn't. Some people believe that life starts when the heartbeat starts beating. However, sometimes the heart just stops.. Does that make the baby suicidal? Or the mother automatically did something wrong? No. Some people believe that life starts after the baby is born... Scientifically speaking, that's correct because the baby is taking it's first breath of air outside of the women's womb. The baby can now breathe fresh air and is not relying on the women's nutrients to survive. Everyone has their own opinions and to state that just because someone isn't Christian they don't believe in what they believe in cause "they just don't know" is completely ignorant. I have my own beliefs and I'm not going to let anyone influence them or change them just because I'm not Christian.

And I also think it's highly offensive that you're comparing abortion to Hitler's genocide of Jews. They are two COMPLETELY different things and I believe it's wrong to say it like that and offensive to those who have had an abortion.

/Rant.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 04:31 PM

I just thought I should make it clear before I reply to these that I understand that people who have abortions don't always have such evil intents like Hitler did. The point of this thread was never to compare people who have had abortions to Hitler. Rather, it was to make people think about the fact that they can't know a fetus isn't alive any more than Hitler could know that Jews weren't really human. The intent of posting this was simply to make people think about if the baby could possibly be alive before killing it, not to compare the people to Hitler. I should have made that more clear from the start and I'm sorry that I didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffee❤ View Post
(Warning: My opinion, I got kind of angry writing this, though I want to make sure the author knows: You are completely entitled to your opinion, and I'm completely entitled to mine. I say this all out of respect, and all out of for the sake of arguing. Could be triggering, since I layed out some example situations.)

I'm sorry, but comparing abortion to the holocaust is fairly ridiculous. The definition of genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" and that is not even close to abortion. Abortion is not done out of hatred, racism, and spite, abortion is a last minute scenario done when somebody does not have a better option. The majority of women do not use abortion as a form of birth control, an abortion is usually used when there is no better option. Do you believe a rape victim should have to have their rapist's child the rest of their life? Do you believe a crack addict, not at all interested in recovery, should wait out a full term and have a baby exposed to crack cocaine to live a life going from shelter to shelter is acceptable? What about a woman who has an illness that will risk her life by carrying out a pregnancy? I do not think these are part of "God's plan", if so, God would give them to right to help themselves. Abortion is used only when it is the best option.

Also, as many others have mentioned, what are you saying is human life? What is the line? Is every period half a child you didn't have, and you should be ashamed for not going out and getting pregnant? What about men's sperm, all those sperm wasted not impregnating people? I'm asking a serious question: What is the line? If it's conception, then you also need to know a good percentage of conceived pregnancies are miscarried, just because of stresses to the body. Did all of these women murder? Also, legally, life starts at birth. The census does not include pregnancies. It starts at birth. And really, what kind of value is human life if it starts in the womb anyway? Personally, I think my friends and family are worth more than a fetus, and I'm sorry if you do not think so, but my friends and family can think and speak and have connections to Earth.

Considering abortion is genocide is just absurd, but even consider it murder is a little out of proportion. Calling abortion murder is like calling burning blueprints arson. It's an interrupted work in process.

Let me make one thing clear though: I'm not for abortion. I'm for condoms and contraceptives. I'm for people making smart choices before they get pregnant. But that option needs to be there for people in need.
I've already answered a lot of your questions in previous posts in this thread, but there are a few things I want to address.

First off, I understand that a woman who has an abortion usually has different motives that Hitler did. I never claimed that they were doing it for the same reasons.

You said that if the babies were supposed to live, God would have provided a way for them to have a better life. He did; it's called adoption. Now, I don't think people should just give their kids away just because....but sometimes they don't have safe living environments for them and it is the only healthy choice.

As far as when life starts, I believe that it starts at conception. And no, I don't think miscarriages are murder because the woman couldn't control that. I get my information from the bible though, so anyone who doesn't believe the bible DOESN'T have any way of knowing for sure when life starts. Therefor, they can't know for sure that they aren't killing a living baby. Even if you think it's just an embryo, you don't know whether or not it has a soul....and it has a heart beat after 6 weeks reguardless. So even though it's legal, does that make it right? That was the point of this thread- it was legal for Hitler to kill those people, but that doesn't make it right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTank77 View Post
Also, for the record, as a Jew, I find comparing the holocaust and abortions offensive, for several reasons.

The first and foremost being that fact that you're using it as sob-ridden propaganda to push a political goal.
It was actually a Jew who made up this comparison of abortion to the holocaust, so I didn't think it would be offensive to Jews.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey. View Post
You cannot possibly compare Hitler to abortion. You cannot even compare Mao or Stalin to abortion. Mass murder is not equal to abortion. Abortion has it's benefits. They are not the same thing. They are no where close.
So killing is okay as long as there are benefits?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Briana View Post
Not sure where you are trying to take this discussion either.
The point of making this thread was to make people realize that they can't know a fetus isn't a person any more than Hitler knew that Jews weren't people- so why is it okay to kill one and not the other? That was the intent of this thread, to make people think about if the baby could be alive before deciding to kill it.

I'll continue in a separate post; I don't know if there is a limit for these.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 04:40 PM

So you're pretty much saying that "cells have souls", an embryo isn't a baby until about week 8 into the pregnancy. Until then they can't think. Abortion I am fine with to a point. I agree with it only in certain circumstances but to compare it to genocide is ludicrous.

Hitler Killed many PEOPLE, families due to religion, its far different from abortion.
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marguerite View Post

You know you're whole argument is basically you can't know when life begins (except for what the bible tells you, which is where I like to get all of my medical infortmation too) therefore people who get abortions are like Hitler. However if we don't know then you don't know either, so by your logic maybe you're the one who's wrong and just calling people baby killers for the hell of it.
The point of this thread is that if you can't know when life begins, how do you know that you aren't killing a baby when you abort? That's the whole point, you can't. I just brought up the bible because someone asked my belief about when life begins...that wasn't part of my argument, I was just answering a question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xujhan View Post
I challenge you, Megan! Provide a reasonable explanation of what pro-choice people actually believe, rather than what pro-life propaganda documentaries have told you they believe. In the spirit of fairness, I'll do the same:

You believe that a fetus is a living human from the moment of conception (having a soul might come into this), and that as a living human it is as entitled to a right life as any fully grown human. Given that status and right, an abortion is as much an act of homicide as any other.

If I'm mistaken somewhere, please correct me, then respond with what you think my general belief is, and more importantly, why I believe it. Once we understand each other, an intelligent debate can begin.

Incidentally: Godwin's Law.
You're right about what I believe. And I think pro-choice means that whether or not you would have an abortion yourself, you believe that it is a woman's right to choose abortion because it is her body and her determination about what is best/morally right.



Quote:
Originally Posted by believe.in.hope View Post

This is the most ignorant and offensive thing I've read on TeenHelp. Just because someone isn't Christian they don't have their own beliefs and own idea of when life really starts? Everyone's opinion is different and honestly, it seems to me that you're trying to push your opinions on everyone else. Some people believe life starts at conception, but things happen. Abortion, miscarriage, stillbirth, SIDS, etc. I had a miscarriage, two infact. Does that mean I'm a killer? Because my body couldn't handle the pregnancies? No, it doesn't. Some people believe that life starts when the heartbeat starts beating. However, sometimes the heart just stops.. Does that make the baby suicidal? Or the mother automatically did something wrong? No. Some people believe that life starts after the baby is born... Scientifically speaking, that's correct because the baby is taking it's first breath of air outside of the women's womb. The baby can now breathe fresh air and is not relying on the women's nutrients to survive. Everyone has their own opinions and to state that just because someone isn't Christian they don't believe in what they believe in cause "they just don't know" is completely ignorant. I have my own beliefs and I'm not going to let anyone influence them or change them just because I'm not Christian.

And I also think it's highly offensive that you're comparing abortion to Hitler's genocide of Jews. They are two COMPLETELY different things and I believe it's wrong to say it like that and offensive to those who have had an abortion.

/Rant.
That's exactly the point, every does have their own beliefs about when life starts. Those are opinions, like you said...so if they can't know for sure, they have no way of knowing for sure that they aren't killing a baby. I'm really sorry about your miscarriages, and no that doesn't make you a murderer at all. That was an accidental death, just like if you had a grown child and they died accidentally or died of an illness. Not your fault at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurineth View Post
So you're pretty much saying that "cells have souls", an embryo isn't a baby until about week 8 into the pregnancy. Until then they can't think. Abortion I am fine with to a point. I agree with it only in certain circumstances but to compare it to genocide is ludicrous.

Hitler Killed many PEOPLE, families due to religion, its far different from abortion.
I don't believe tht all cells have souls; I believe that once a baby is concieved it has a soul.

I really hate debating, but I wanted to answer these questions. The whole point of this thread was to make people think before having an abortion, not to debate....although I knew that it would most likely lead to a debate. I don't really want to keep responding here because it's just an aimless fight and a waste of my time, so I may end it here, I'm not sure.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:48 PM

Debating about abortion is one of those things that people here stay away from. Because no matter what others may say, it will turn ugly and get out if control, in a way. Abortion and gay marriage are the two biggest things that always seem to cause a huge debate. That's just what you have to keep in mind when posting about them. No matter what you say about it, it will become a debate.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:49 PM

I for one would like a response to my first post. Just because I'm genuinely interesting in your response.


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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 05:53 PM

Quote:
You said that if the babies were supposed to live, God would have provided a way for them to have a better life. He did; it's called adoption. Now, I don't think people should just give their kids away just because....but sometimes they don't have safe living environments for them and it is the only healthy choice.
Do you have any idea how difficult adoption is? Not to mention painful for the mother AND child.



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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 06:30 PM

Yes but you're answering questions with your opinion, some people's differ, so its obviously going to turn into a debate.

I really don't see how the two are alike.
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 06:38 PM

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Originally Posted by thebigmole View Post
Ok here I go...

1. No one is pro-abortion, no one.
Unfortunately, I have experience of people who would quite easily fit that description - one notable example being a writer attempting to justify abortion because of a cleft palate on the basis that it could (note: could, not would) lead to complications in later life, and therefore abortion was a "positive step". So much as I would like to be able to agree, unfortunately I cannot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigmole View Post
2. Something having a soul is a concept, it's not something that's provable. Some people believe in souls some do not therefore you cannot base a law on something that can't be proven and not everyone believes in.
Agreed - much as I am a Catholic, I would not feel comfortable with my views on the soul being imposed in law.

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Originally Posted by thebigmole View Post
3. While I concede that an embryo (that's what I'm going to call it since the majority of abortions happen during the embryonic stage, it's not even a fetus yet) is human, it is not A human. My liver is human, it's alive, but it doesn't have A life and it's not A human. I can drink to my hearts content and destroy my liver and no one is going to tell me I'm killing a human or destroying a life. An embryo does not have the qualifications to be A life or A human therefore comparing it to out there in the world, living, breathing Jews is highly inaccurate.
I feel this is a misleading comparison - your liver shares your entire genetic code and various connections to your internal organs, and is a part of your collective entity. An embryo will at most share half of your genetic code, and will ultimately have no connections to your organs or form part of your collective entity at all. Ripped out of your body, your liver would simply pack up and die (as, incidentally, would you); in contrast, provided viability is achieved the foetus will survive such separation (as will you). Your example is almost like comparing ripping an engine out of a car and driving a car off a transporter truck - there is superficial similarity but that is all. Also, bear in mind what counts as "the qualifications to be A life or A human" is incredibly flexible and not as much of a constant as would often be desired (events in the 20th century demonstrating that time and again). Even our current definition is highly subjective.

As for the wider abortion debate, I feel we have gone over this subject so many times it's not even funny, so I'm just going to sit and wait until the inevitable happens...


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Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 06:44 PM

As usual these debates make me sad and appalled, but it's hard not to add a few cents in, so just a few things that came up for me while I was reading this. I tried to keep the tone reasonable, but I disagree with the OP so strongly that it was hard to not to want to criticize a little more harshly than would be appropriate. To the OP - You're entitled to your own opinions, but when you bring them to a forum, this is what you're opening yourself up to.

Side note - there are things I would usually address that I'm completely ignoring (ex. the use of terms like "baby" and "killing") because they've been gone over both in this thread and in dozens like it over the years.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
And I didn't know that about Hitler's reasons. Thanks for sharing that. That really doesn't change anything with the abortion thing though.
I find it extremely offensive that you're regurgitating rhetoric without actually understanding the comparison you're making. Whether or not you understand what you're posting may not change your beliefs around abortion but hey, it doesn't change my belief that when you make an argument you should understand it.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
If people start fighting or extreme debating, I (being the person who started the thread) would even like it to get locked. I posted this thread to make people think before having abortions, not to fight or offend people who have already had them.
You posted this thread to spread your message and because you hoped that people would agree with you. It's been mentioned before, but bringing up abortion always leads to intense discussion on forums - it's a very polarizing issue. If you could imagine that posting this idea would go unchallenged... well, I'm not sure what you were thinking.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I just thought I should make it clear before I reply to these that I understand that people who have abortions don't always have such evil intents like Hitler did. The point of this thread was never to compare people who have had abortions to Hitler. Rather, it was to make people think about the fact that they can't know a fetus isn't alive any more than Hitler could know that Jews weren't really human. The intent of posting this was simply to make people think about if the baby could possibly be alive before killing it, not to compare the people to Hitler. I should have made that more clear from the start and I'm sorry that I didn't.

First off, I understand that a woman who has an abortion usually has different motives that Hitler did. I never claimed that they were doing it for the same reasons.
That's implying that you think some women who have abortions have "evil intents" - and considering I already quoted you saying you didn't want to offend women who'd experienced an abortion, I find that somewhat conflicting.

Also, in your initial post you said "Do you see that these two acts are exactly the same?" - so yes, your point was in fact that you were comparing the holocaust to abortion and the pregnant woman to Hitler.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
You said that if the babies were supposed to live, God would have provided a way for them to have a better life. He did; it's called adoption. Now, I don't think people should just give their kids away just because....but sometimes they don't have safe living environments for them and it is the only healthy choice.
As an adopted child, I have SO many problems with this part of your argument that I don't even know where to start. 1) You start with saying that "hey, there's this other option I believe in" and follow up with condemning it. 2) You clearly don't understand the adoption process. 3) You're indirectly saying that my birth mother "gave me away just because" 4) You have a very limited view of an acceptable reason for an adoption.

I am extremely lucky as an adoptee. I have a working relationship with my birth family (something that was NOT easy to achieve), an open adoption that I appreciate, and adoptive parents that are loving and able to provide me with what my birth mother could not. I know many adopted children who don't have any of these things, and even though I do I'm not without emotional scars as a result. Adoption is not an easy decision or process (neither is parenting or abortion) and unfortunately it doesn't always provide a good life. Mind, I'm still a huge proponent of it (it definitely gave me one) but it's just ignorant to think that it's a panacea for pregnant women unable/unwilling to raise their child. Also, personally, my birth mother did have a safe living environment and it would not have been the only healthy choice - but it was 100% the right one. (And just so you know, I would also support the idea of a women in her situation having an abortion.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
That was the intent of this thread, to make people think about if the baby could be alive before deciding to kill it.
Look, I don't know how many people you know who have been pregnant and considering their options - for my part, I know several and also have a friend that does options support work for the city. If you honestly believe that most women don't think very hard and long about their decisions, you are doing them a huge disservice. If that was your only intent, you might as well not have posted this.

Which is pretty much how I feel about the whole thing - you might as well not have posted this.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 07:12 PM

I'd also like to point of that the OP is constantly saying she doesn't like debating or arguing. In her first post, she made it clear that she knew this was a debate forum, and it could likely lead to arguments.

Also, just because you have a specific view on abortions and the like, it doesn't mean that whatever you say about them is going to make us change our opinions on them. We all have different views on this, and constantly comparing abortions to Hitler isn't the way to go about it. Obviously, many people have been offended by this, and even if it wasn't your intent, you should have thought a bit more before putting that into your posts.

Abortion is a huge topic that we stay away from, much as someone else has mentioned in their post above me. Abortion isn't an easy thing to do, and I'm sure that many people are anti-abortion for several reasons, and pro-abortion for several reasons. What their reasons are, they have a right to feel that way if they want. Opinions are going to vary, and fortunately, no matter what you say, you aren't going to sway people from their own opinions.











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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 07:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigmole View Post
I for one would like a response to my first post. Just because I'm genuinely interesting in your response.
I didn't respond to your first post because you didn't ask me anything, and because I already stated the answers to what you said in other posts. The three things that you mentioned (the difference between pro-abortion and pro-choice, the concept of a soul, and when an embryo becomes a life) are all things that I already addressed in the responses to other people if you read those. I didn't feel the need to repeat myself 30 times in order to respond to everyone.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CloserToTheClouds View Post
Do you have any idea how difficult adoption is? Not to mention painful for the mother AND child.
Both adoption and abortion are difficult for the mother, so she might as well choose the one that will save her baby's life. And yes it is hard for kids to find out that they were adopted....but should we just kill any baby who may have to face hardships in their life to prevent them from ever being sad? Because if that were the case, we would have to kill all unborn babies, because they are all going to face hard times in one way or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jas View Post
I find it extremely offensive that you're regurgitating rhetoric without actually understanding the comparison you're making. Whether or not you understand what you're posting may not change your beliefs around abortion but hey, it doesn't change my belief that when you make an argument you should understand it.



You posted this thread to spread your message and because you hoped that people would agree with you. It's been mentioned before, but bringing up abortion always leads to intense discussion on forums - it's a very polarizing issue. If you could imagine that posting this idea would go unchallenged... well, I'm not sure what you were thinking.



That's implying that you think some women who have abortions have "evil intents" - and considering I already quoted you saying you didn't want to offend women who'd experienced an abortion, I find that somewhat conflicting.

Also, in your initial post you said "Do you see that these two acts are exactly the same?" - so yes, your point was in fact that you were comparing the holocaust to abortion and the pregnant woman to Hitler.



As an adopted child, I have SO many problems with this part of your argument that I don't even know where to start. 1) You start with saying that "hey, there's this other option I believe in" and follow up with condemning it. 2) You clearly don't understand the adoption process. 3) You're indirectly saying that my birth mother "gave me away just because" 4) You have a very limited view of an acceptable reason for an adoption.

I am extremely lucky as an adoptee. I have a working relationship with my birth family (something that was NOT easy to achieve), an open adoption that I appreciate, and adoptive parents that are loving and able to provide me with what my birth mother could not. I know many adopted children who don't have any of these things, and even though I do I'm not without emotional scars as a result. Adoption is not an easy decision or process (neither is parenting or abortion) and unfortunately it doesn't always provide a good life. Mind, I'm still a huge proponent of it (it definitely gave me one) but it's just ignorant to think that it's a panacea for pregnant women unable/unwilling to raise their child. Also, personally, my birth mother did have a safe living environment and it would not have been the only healthy choice - but it was 100% the right one. (And just so you know, I would also support the idea of a women in her situation having an abortion.)



Look, I don't know how many people you know who have been pregnant and considering their options - for my part, I know several and also have a friend that does options support work for the city. If you honestly believe that most women don't think very hard and long about their decisions, you are doing them a huge disservice. If that was your only intent, you might as well not have posted this.

Which is pretty much how I feel about the whole thing - you might as well not have posted this.
I understood what I was posting, I just didn't know that Hitler didn't kill out of anger....but that's just a little fact, it doesn't have much to do with the comparison in this thread.


I figured that this would lead to a debate (although I didn't want it to), but I hoped that even if people did debate, it would lead to a debate AND some people understanding. But seeing as that didn't happen, it probably would have been better not to start a thread about abortion. I had no idea before starting it that it wouldn't help anyone though. You can never know that until afterwards, so I decided to give it a try.


Yes I said MOST people who have abortions don't have evil intents, because I'm sure that someone somewhere killed their baby with a bad intent. Even if it's not common, you can't honestly say that you think there hasn't been even one abortion ever that was done out of evil intent.


I know the adoption process and have studied it along with foster care a lot. Yes it is hard, but it's still a better option. And no I'm not saying that your birth mother gave you up for no reason, I'm saying that some mothers give their babies up for no reason. Again, it's not common, but you can't deny that it has happened.


Yes, some adopted children have good lives and some don't. Just like some children who live with their birth families have good lives and some don't. But again, should we kill every baby that might not have a good life, even though we have no way of knowing for sure if they will or not?


If I forgot to reply to anyone who asked me a serious question that wasn't already replied to in someone else's post, please let me know. Otherwise, we should probably just let this thread die. I did it to make people think more before abortion, not to debate (although I figured it would do both)....but since it's just getting people angry and not changing anyone's mind, it's probably best to leave it alone. My view has not changed, but I don't think that enforcing it on people any more than I already have is going to do any good.

Last edited by Megan1; September 28th 2011 at 07:50 PM.
   
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Re: Abortion - September 28th 2011, 08:22 PM

Ahem. Well, yeah, I know you said that we should probably let this thread die... However, I couldn't resist putting my two cents in. Be aware that I'm not trying to sway your opinion: I'm simply asking questions out of mere curiosity, and making my own opinion on this matter known.

Personally, if I were to become pregnant at this time (which I most likely will not, but just hypothesizing), I would get an abortion. For back information, I'm a fifteen-year-old high school student from a middle-class family who could afford to pay to keep a child, keep a roof over my head, and who would give me much support. So why would I still get an abortion? For several reasons:
  1. I am under the legal age to work. It would be insane for me to try to keep a child, when I can't pay doctor bills or pay to take care of my child once he/she was born (as I would not give up a child of mine that had already been born), and wouldn't like to put the burden of another on my parents.
  2. I am still in high school. I'd have to leave school, for at least two months -- even in an in-home instruction course, or if I were homeschooled, I'd lose valuable instruction time and access to an education that's worth anything, even if I gave the child up for adoption.
  3. Emotional stress. I mean, honestly, who wants to go through walking through a school as a pregnant teenager, and being talked about by everyone?
The only way I would keep the child and bring it about to term is if the father was of working age, I had permission from my parents (and his) to marry the father, and had a home of my own to live in, so I didn't feel as if I was burdening my parents.

Quote:
I figured that this would lead to a debate (although I didn't want it to), but I hoped that even if people did debate, it would lead to a debate AND some people understanding. But seeing as that didn't happen, it probably would have been better not to start a thread about abortion. I had no idea before starting it that it wouldn't help anyone though. You can never know that until afterwards, so I decided to give it a try.
Some people understanding? You mean, understanding your way. We pro-choice people have our way of understanding, as well, and you cannot sway us, just as we cannot sway your opinion. And this thread will not help anyone who has already made their decision.

Quote:
Yes it is hard, but it's still a better option.
How is adoption a better option? Some mothers cannot pay doctor bills to even get proper care to bring the baby about to term, in the first place. Having children and ultrasounds and everything is quite expensive, from my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong). For some, it isn't even a choice: It's even necessary in some cases.


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Re: Abortion - September 29th 2011, 03:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
You said that if the babies were supposed to live, God would have provided a way for them to have a better life. He did; it's called adoption. Now, I don't think people should just give their kids away just because....but sometimes they don't have safe living environments for them and it is the only healthy choice.

As far as when life starts, I believe that it starts at conception. And no, I don't think miscarriages are murder because the woman couldn't control that. I get my information from the bible though, so anyone who doesn't believe the bible DOESN'T have any way of knowing for sure when life starts. Therefor, they can't know for sure that they aren't killing a living baby. Even if you think it's just an embryo, you don't know whether or not it has a soul....and it has a heart beat after 6 weeks reguardless.
First: I agree with Keena (Closertotheclouds): Are you adopted? Do you know how rough it is to be adopted? Suicide rates are higher, very often these children go to abusive homes. Adoption isn't always the better option.

Second, you didn't answer whether a mother who cannot go through pregnancy without risking her own life. Should she risk her and her baby's life?

Next, don't tell me I'm uneducated because I'm not a Christian. You don't need to read the bible to know where life begins, because nobody knows when life begins, it is relative to your belief. You believe that it starts at conception. Good for you. I do not, I believe it starts at birth. The bible is not fact, the bible is an opinion of many people, which is fine. There are many accepted theories in the world among scientists that not all scientists believe in. I do not believe in Christianity, a lot of people in the United States are not Christian, and we can't make laws that go along with one group's values.
So I've got a great idea, don't have an abortion. But don't be forcing these rules upon other people following a different path.

And last, you still cannot compare a genocide to abortion. I'm sorry. It makes no sense. Yes, you're saying "They didn't consider jews to be human, and neither do people who have abortions" but...you are comparing a mass execution of six million people to the disruption of cells. I'm sorry. It doesn't hold up. I watched the video. It's ridiculous.

And question, this is a bit off topic from your holocaust-abortion question, but I have a question. Are you for the wars? Are you for the death penalty? I'm trying to see consistency among people who believe that life is sacred. How come so many people who are pro life are also for the death penalty too. A person is a person, and I don't see how if you can defend an unborn fetus how people cannot defend an actual human being.


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