No one gave a shit, quite literally

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Guile

But then you're involved, and have to go into the police report, and possibly show up at the trial. The best idea, is to avoid getting involved in anything you aren't required to, it's not any of our business anyway.

Originally Posted by Guile

Ohh I don't deny that it's happening, it's just not my business, if it doesn't personally cause me grief, then I don't gain anything by stepping in.

(Personally asked to include his name in the quotes)

That was said by someone on here in complete seriousness in another thread, not too long ago. I wouldn't say it's completely taken "out of context", since the subject matter was quite similar to what it is in this thread, although no one died in the other incident. Here's some more recent news:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/chinese-gir...040048358.html

Speaks for itself. I have nothing to say that I don't think isn't obvious to normal people.

[PutYourHeartsUp]

Holy shit. When I clicked that link, I felt something inside my heart die a little. I could never in good conscience leave a person dying on the road, let alone a toddler. I just...I can't even right now. If those comments you quoted have anything to do with the article, I don't understand how seeing a dying person, let alone a dying baby/child, wouldn't cause personal grief.

A few years ago I was on the highway with my mom. We saw a pickup truck pull over and throw something into a ditch, and then yell. We thought it was a dog which was bad enough. They had tossed a child face first into a ditch, before the car had even stopped moving. We immediately called the police. That's something that STILL affects me, just seeing it.

[Kate*]

I glanced at the article, but I get the basic idea. There was a recent story here where a woman died at work because her co-worker was told by the boss to stop CPR and take care of the costomers AND SHE STOPPED! Even if the CPR wouldn't have saved the woman's life I couldn't live with myself if I did something like that. I would've said fire me if you want to I don't really want to work here anyway if this is how you react to something like this. Apparently the boss was under the (incorrect) impression that the coworker could/would get blamed if the person died or was injured from the CPR. We have good samaritan laws that would protect her, but they won't protect you if you stop before someone more qualified takes over.

[Baxter]

Are you just calling someone out or what?...

The story is in China, if that happened in North America or England I'd probably be a lot more worried. I think trying to intervene in a beatdown, and calling the police when a child is trapped and dying are two completely different things.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Baxter

Are you just calling someone out or what?...

The story is in China, if that happened in North America or England I'd probably be a lot more worried. I think trying to intervene in a beatdown, and calling the police when a child is trapped and dying are two completely different things.

I'm not calling anyone out. If I wanted to I'd be more upfront about it and quote their name.

I'm making a point, how people's attitudes, like the one I quoted, can lead to what happened as described in the article. I can see how my last line might seem provocative... but it certainly wasn't with the intent of calling anyone out. I don't even remember why I exactly put it in, but it was something directly to do with the article I posted. I'll take it out, because now that I read it, it seems pointless since even I don't follow it.

And yes, the two scenarios are different in that intervening in a beat-down poses far more risk to whoever's intervening, but the attitudes presented by certain people in both scenarios aren't at all different from one another, in any way.

Originally Posted by CloserToTheClouds

If those comments you quoted have anything to do with the article, I don't understand how seeing a dying person, let alone a dying baby/child, wouldn't cause personal grief.

I don't want misunderstandings. The quotations weren't in the context of someone else dying, but hate crime and violent beating. I'll make that clearer in the OP.

[Guile]

Originally Posted by BDF

That was said by someone on here in complete seriousness in another thread, not too long ago. I wouldn't say it's completely taken "out of context", since the subject matter was quite similar to what it is in this thread, although no one died in the other incident. Here's some more recent news:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/chinese-gir...040048358.html

Speaks for itself. I have nothing to say that I don't think isn't obvious to normal people.

Give fair credit where credit is due, add my name back to my quotes, I stand by what I said!

It's unfortunate, but as always, life goes on, sad but true.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Guile

Give fair credit where credit is due, add my name back to my quotes, I stand by what I said!

It's unfortunate, but as always, life goes on, sad but true.

If you want so ok lol. The least I can respect you for is your disarming and almost arrogant honesty and frankness. If more people were like you in that respect, there'd be a lot less bullshit flying about in the world, and I'd get irritated at it all a lot less.

[Guile]

Originally Posted by BDF

If you want so ok lol. The least I can respect you for is your disarming and almost arrogant honesty and frankness. If more people were like you in that respect, there'd be a lot less bullshit flying about in the world, and I'd get irritated at it all a lot less.

Well thank you.

What I mean is, bad things happen, it's unfortunate, but if I stop to care about everyone else, then I'll lose sight of my goals, and become an emotional wreck. The only way to suceed nowadays is to become desensatized to the horrors of the world. Sure, I wish tbey were helped, but in the end, I honestly just don't give a damn. It would be nice if I did, but I can't spend my time feeling sorry for others. Too bad, but does me feeling sorry for someone really change anything?

[dr2005]

Originally Posted by Guile

What I mean is, bad things happen, it's unfortunate, but if I stop to care about everyone else, then I'll lose sight of my goals, and become an emotional wreck. The only way to suceed nowadays is to become desensatized to the horrors of the world. Sure, I wish tbey were helped, but in the end, I honestly just don't give a damn. It would be nice if I did, but I can't spend my time feeling sorry for others. Too bad, but does me feeling sorry for someone really change anything?

If that is the attitude you feel you have to take, then in all seriousness you have my sympathies.

And yes, that story is quite horrible and has resulted in some much-needed soul searching and anger in China.

[ShadowDancing]

My heart dropped when I read this. I mean, really? That poor little girl is just lying there and you do nothing?
Maybe it's just me. But I'd rather face the legal consequences than walk right on past her, when I know I could have helped. That I should have helped. I couldn't not help her.

[Brandon]

Stuff like this is studied in Sociology, and doing something is harder than it sounds. We all may say "oh man...I would've instantly tried to save them!" Put in that situation, it's possible that we'd act completely different (or none at all). I think it's called bystander apathy...not 100% sure on that though. If there's a term for it, then you KNOW that it's more common than people think. I'd like to think Guile's response would be perfectly rational in that scenario; maybe not the right response, but a common response.

[ShimmeringFaerie]

Originally Posted by Guile

Well thank you.

What I mean is, bad things happen, it's unfortunate, but if I stop to care about everyone else, then I'll lose sight of my goals, and become an emotional wreck. The only way to suceed nowadays is to become desensatized to the horrors of the world. Sure, I wish tbey were helped, but in the end, I honestly just don't give a damn. It would be nice if I did, but I can't spend my time feeling sorry for others. Too bad, but does me feeling sorry for someone really change anything?

So are you saying that if you had seen that toddler, dying on the side of the road, you would have just walked away? Or are you saying that if you had seen the toddler, but were also on your way to a very important job interview, you would have kept going because your goals are more important?

Originally Posted by Brandon

Stuff like this is studied in Sociology, and doing something is harder than it sounds. We all may say "oh man...I would've instantly tried to save them!" Put in that situation, it's possible that we'd act completely different (or none at all). I think it's called bystander apathy...not 100% sure on that though. If there's a term for it, then you KNOW that it's more common than people think. I'd like to think Guile's response would be perfectly rational in that scenario; maybe not the right response, but a common response.

I seriously disagree. I don't think it is a normal or common response to flat-out ignore a toddler who is bleeding to death on the side of the road. I do agree that in certain situations, it's easier to say that we would do something than to actually do it, especially if we would be putting ourselves in physical/immediate danger by getting involved. I'd even be willing to agree that seeing a toddler who was so hurt might shock people into not being able to think clearly and do the right thing. But to see the situation and just ignore it and keep walking? There is nothing rational about that.

[Magic.]

Originally Posted by Baxter

The story is in China, if that happened in North America or England I'd probably be a lot more worried.

I may be completely misunderstanding what you mean ... but how is it less worrying that it happened in China? A child died. A child who could have been saved if someone had done something. Her race has absolutely nothing to do with that fact. Similar things happen in Europe and the US, being in another country shouldn't make it any less important.

I was brought up that if you can get involved without getting into danger then do so, if not call for help. Countless times in my life I've been in the car with my dad and had him pull over to stop a fight when everyone else is ignoring it. And I've called the police several times, both for fights I don't want to risk getting involved in and for finding someone hurt.

It's human nature to protect ourselves from harm. But I think we should also try and protect others, especially children. Being called up to trial is hardly the worst thing that could happen if getting involved means someone's life is saved.

[Guile]

Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie

So are you saying that if you had seen that toddler, dying on the side of the road, you would have just walked away? Or are you saying that if you had seen the toddler, but were also on your way to a very important job interview, you would have kept going because your goals are more important?

Possibly I would have stopped, but if I was on the way to a job interview, I would not, I would have kept going. I'm the most important person in my world, and as such, am at liberty to put myself first.

Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie

There is nothing rational about that.

What is so irrational about that? Do I gain anything by saving the toddler's life? Doubtful, and as such it is more rational to ignore it and not get involved, especially if it were your job interview example, then I most definitely lose something by getting involved.

Both Atlas and I Shrugged and moved on

[Cosmo]

Nothing to add, just pointing out that OP clearly doesn't understand what "literally" means.

I was most disappointed when I clicked this thread.

[Revolution]

Originally Posted by Guile

if I stop to care about everyone else, then I'll lose sight of my goals, and become an emotional wreck.

Very, very true. This is one of the (many) reasons I'm an emotional wreck. I seriously care way too much about people and animals. I have seriously gave up my food, water, and lots and lots of time to help others, and to be honest, I have gotten little tangible out of it. But I feel good afterwards.

I would have stopped. I would have felt obligated to. I feel it would have been the particular wrong thing to do to keep going, and that her blood would be on my hands. I've never had this for a person, but I've had it for animals. If I see a cat or a dog injured on the side of the road, I go to it every time. If it is still alive, I either call its owner if it has one, or I call the humane society every time. If it's dead, I do the same thing, call its owner to let them know, and call the local authorities to pick it up. I don't feel that other people are wrong for not, but I feel it's my own personal responsibility.

I would have helped this girl. It seriously brings tears to my eyes that nobody did. It's tragic how people have no value for human life sometimes.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Cosmo

Nothing to add, just pointing out that OP clearly doesn't understand what "literally" means.

I was most disappointed when I clicked this thread.

What the fuck did you expect? Flying turds, literally???

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by Magic.

I may be completely misunderstanding what you mean ... but how is it less worrying that it happened in China? A child died. A child who could have been saved if someone had done something. Her race has absolutely nothing to do with that fact. Similar things happen in Europe and the US, being in another country shouldn't make it any less important.

It's not the race that matters; it's the country. Unless I'm remembering wrong, China has no good samaritan laws. Trying to help someone in a situation like this has the potential to backfire on you disasterously, so I can understand why more people in China would be reluctant to help. Not saying that it's good - obviously the noble thing is still to help the child - but I can better understand people who choose not to in China rather than in North America or Europe where they risk much less.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

It's not the race that matters; it's the country. Unless I'm remembering wrong, China has no good samaritan laws. Trying to help someone in a situation like this has the potential to backfire on you disasterously, so I can understand why more people in China would be reluctant to help. Not saying that it's good - obviously the noble thing is still to help the child - but I can better understand people who choose not to in China rather than in North America or Europe where they risk much less.

Yea I guess... so you end up being sued and charged for breaking the toddler's neck and killing it.

[StrigidaeofChrono]

Originally Posted by Guile

Possibly I would have stopped, but if I was on the way to a job interview, I would not, I would have kept going. I'm the most important person in my world, and as such, am at liberty to put myself first.



What is so irrational about that? Do I gain anything by saving the toddler's life? Doubtful, and as such it is more rational to ignore it and not get involved, especially if it were your job interview example, then I most definitely lose something by getting involved.

Both Atlas and I Shrugged and moved on

Wow, but.... Don't you ever feel guilt? I see your point. But... At the same time, humans are a network. We all live off eachother. You live off your boss, your boss lives off you. You love and look after your friends, you friends love and look after you.. When people stoping doing that for eachother stuff just goes to sh**. What if it was you in the streets, dying?

[Guile]

Originally Posted by StrigidaeofChrono

Wow, but.... Don't you ever feel guilt? I see your point. But... At the same time, humans are a network. We all live off eachother. You live off your boss, your boss lives off you. You love and look after your friends, you friends love and look after you.. When people stoping doing that for eachother stuff just goes to sh**. What if it was you in the streets, dying?

No, I've never felt guilty in my entire life.

Sure, we may live off each other, but some don't give back. It's the same in this situation, I gain nothing by helping the child, and I have no duty to care for some child. Stuff does not go "to sh**" if we stop carring for each other, I shrug at the troubles of the world, and the world shruggs at me.

[BDF]

I've been reading some psychology in spare time here and there... and something I picked up on that got me interested is this trait in some people. It's always been there, but in the past 100 or so years, it's been brought out lot more in some people.

It's called sociopathy, although I do think it exists on a continuous scale. It's not a case of either you have it or you don't. Milder cases can easily be overlooked.

To be successful today, you frequently have to put yourself first. It means shelving your conscience to some extent, and not giving a crap about other people as much.

Originally Posted by StrigidaeofChrono

We all live off eachother. You live off your boss, your boss lives off you. You love and look after your friends, you friends love and look after you.. When people stoping doing that for eachother stuff just goes to sh**.

Yes... if everyone was like that, things just wouldn't work. But the concept of sociopathy works on the basis that one person (the sociopath), survives by usually putting others down to better himself or herself. His (or her) objective isn't necessarily to put others down, but it just so happens that it's becoming part of the equation to success, where you define success as having money rather than friends. Other people just become collateral damage.


But like I said, some people have it more than others in my opinion. The real dangerous ones are the people who are hard-wired that way, in their DNA, which I'd classify as evolution. It doesn't benefit the human race, but it does benefit the individual. Some people become somewhat sociopathic in response to their environment, which I classify as adaptation. If someone grows up in a shit neighbourhood, they learn and develop habits which help them to survive. I can quote myself... since I know myself better than anyone else does...

I can't afford to feel guilt or let my conscience get in the way if someone is for example trying to mug me. If they do so, I will knock their teeth out if I can, and walk off with no hard feelings. I think that goes for many people. You put your conscience on the shelf in cases like that. In cases like that, I don't care where they come from, who they are, or if they have friends/relatives. If someone has the audacity to pro-actively assault me to better himself, I'll raise the stakes too and level the playing field. That someone obviously has no hard feelings or guilt at the time when they'd assault me, so why should I in return?

And I'm not trying to accuse anyone of anything here. Just my 2 cents.

[Digilodger]

Originally Posted by Kate*

I glanced at the article, but I get the basic idea. There was a recent story here where a woman died at work because her co-worker was told by the boss to stop CPR and take care of the costomers AND SHE STOPPED! Even if the CPR wouldn't have saved the woman's life I couldn't live with myself if I did something like that. I would've said fire me if you want to I don't really want to work here anyway if this is how you react to something like this. Apparently the boss was under the (incorrect) impression that the coworker could/would get blamed if the person died or was injured from the CPR. We have good samaritan laws that would protect her, but they won't protect you if you stop before someone more qualified takes over.

Actually, the boss was not wrong. I do not know the situation; so I cannot say for sure. But you are giving the Good Samaritan laws too much power.

The Good Samaritan laws are there primarily to protect trained rescuers who act without expecting any benefit. If you are untrained or if you accept a reward (even after the rescue), then it's largely up to the court to decide.

----------------------------------------

Usually, even if you unintentionally cause a fatal injury while trying to save the person, as long as you are not receiving any reward from your action, then the court generally rule in your favor should the family decides to sue you--with or without Good Samaritan laws.

But if you decide to accept a reward, then the other side's lawyer would surely exploit that . . . should the family decide to sue you for harming or murdering their love one.

-----------------------------------------

The laws, of course, vary from states to states--obviously from countries to countries. These are the general guidelines only. If you want details, then a professional lawyer would be your best source. And of course, in the court, the plaintiff's lawyer would do his best to win the lawsuit. So if it comes to that, good luck!


======================================

Take the case you've presented as an example.

If I was the co-worker in that case, then I may have been able to perform the CPR without worry about getting blamed . . . because I am certified in standard first aid with CPR/AED under Red Cross AND I would not expect or accept any reward. This is assuming that it truly was an emergency and the woman was not responsive. (If she were still capable of responding, then I would have to have her expressed permission first, before I could do anything.)

Now, I don't know whether the co-worker in this case was trained. Incorrect CPR might render the situation worse. She might not know how much pressure is enough, or the broken ribs might end up killing the woman instead. These are a few risks that we take when we do CPR--trained or not--but being an untrained person, she may or may not be covered by the Good Samaritan laws that you mentioned.

Also, what if she were to accept a reward (maybe as a thank you gift) for her action? That would not be very smart. A lawyer can use that against her in court.

--------------------------------------------

This kind of response, "I would've said fire me if you want to I don't really want to work here anyway if this is how you react to something like this," would be used against you, too.

If I was untrained and the patient's family members (or my superior, in this case) tell me to stop, I have to stop!

If I would like to continue anyway, then I would have to call 911 and have them connect me with a professional who would then give me instruction over the phone. This would be my ticket out of trouble if I would like to continue anyway.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by BDF

What the fuck did you expect? Flying turds, literally???

I presumed OP knew what 'literally' actually meant and as such thought this thread was going to be very weird.

[StrigidaeofChrono]

Originally Posted by Guile

No, I've never felt guilty in my entire life.

Sure, we may live off each other, but some don't give back. It's the same in this situation, I gain nothing by helping the child, and I have no duty to care for some child. Stuff does not go "to sh**" if we stop carring for each other, I shrug at the troubles of the world, and the world shruggs at me.

Originally Posted by BDF

I've been reading some psychology in spare time here and there... and something I picked up on that got me interested is this trait in some people. It's always been there, but in the past 100 or so years, it's been brought out lot more in some people.

It's called sociopathy, although I do think it exists on a continuous scale. It's not a case of either you have it or you don't. Milder cases can easily be overlooked.

To be successful today, you frequently have to put yourself first. It means shelving your conscience to some extent, and not giving a crap about other people as much.



Yes... if everyone was like that, things just wouldn't work. But the concept of sociopathy works on the basis that one person (the sociopath), survives by usually putting others down to better himself or herself. His (or her) objective isn't necessarily to put others down, but it just so happens that it's becoming part of the equation to success, where you define success as having money rather than friends. Other people just become collateral damage.


But like I said, some people have it more than others in my opinion. The real dangerous ones are the people who are hard-wired that way, in their DNA, which I'd classify as evolution. It doesn't benefit the human race, but it does benefit the individual. Some people become somewhat sociopathic in response to their environment, which I classify as adaptation. If someone grows up in a shit neighbourhood, they learn and develop habits which help them to survive. I can quote myself... since I know myself better than anyone else does...

I can't afford to feel guilt or let my conscience get in the way if someone is for example trying to mug me. If they do so, I will knock their teeth out if I can, and walk off with no hard feelings. I think that goes for many people. You put your conscience on the shelf in cases like that.

And I'm not trying to accuse anyone of anything here. Just my 2 cents.

But.... This isn't just the 1 of 100 that are sociopaths who arnt stopping to call the ambulance when a woman in the same grocery aisle as them is lying on the floor bleeding. Or when a little girl is being run over. What is it in today's society that requires us to be so apathetic towards eachother? A mugging makes sence to me, self defense isn't something to feel guilty about.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by StrigidaeofChrono

But.... This isn't just the 1 of 100 that are sociopaths who arnt stopping to call the ambulance when a woman in the same grocery aisle as them is lying on the floor bleeding. Or when a little girl is being run over. What is it in today's society that requires us to be so apathetic towards eachother?

Like I said... I don't think it's a case of either having it or not... and it manifests itself in many ways. Helping a dying person has no benefit to someone with little or no conscience, and in fact involves bagging more responsibility, since like Guile said... you have to then file police reports, turn up in court, maybe accompany the person on the way to hospital, etc.

It's a liability with no monetary gain, in that time is money also, and on top of that in some exceptional cases it could even get you in trouble.

I've been under impression that quite a lot of Chinese people can be quite cold when they first come over to the UK. I've never been to China, but I have a friend who's lived in the UK for a while now, and my step-dad, who're both Chinese, and neither of them are particularly fond of their home culture. The level of competition in China between people is frequently pathological. You're always hearing of Chinese kids winning the Global Maths Prize, or Chemistry Prize etc... it's all down to success, and this mindset has it's short term benefits but ultimately it screws a country up. You can only have one winner in that scenario, and people are willing to do anything to be the winner... so yep, like you said, everything goes to shit.

[StrigidaeofChrono]

Originally Posted by BDF

Like I said... I don't think it's a case of either having it or not... and it manifests itself in many ways. Helping a dying person has no benefit to someone with little or no conscience, and in fact involves bagging more responsibility, since like Guile said... you have to then file police reports, turn up in court, maybe accompany the person on the way to hospital, etc.

It's a liability with no monetary gain, in that time is money also, and on top of that in some exceptional cases it could even get you in trouble.

I've been under impression that quite a lot of Chinese people can be quite cold when they first come over to the UK. I've never been to China, but I have a friend who's lived in the UK for a while now, and my step-dad, who're both Chinese, and neither of them are particularly fond of their home culture. The level of competition in China between people is frequently pathological. You're always hearing of Chinese kids winning the Global Maths Prize, or Chemistry Prize etc... it's all down to success, and this mindset has it's short term benefits but ultimately it screws a country up. You can only have one winner in that scenario, and people are willing to do anything to be the winner... so yep, like you said, everything goes to shit.

That's really sad, I feel like when people focus on nothing but competition there is no time to connect or understand eachother. It seems like they'd never know what it means to be happy. It gives me a little hope that afterward the people of china at least gave the family donations in the hope of making her better.

[Digilodger]

Originally Posted by StrigidaeofChrono

But.... This isn't just the 1 of 100 that are sociopaths who arnt stopping to call the ambulance when a woman in the same grocery aisle as them is lying on the floor bleeding. Or when a little girl is being run over. What is it in today's society that requires us to be so apathetic towards eachother?

I believe it's more of "assume" than apathy. (The joke is that when you "ass/u/me," you make an ass out of you and me.)

Tell me if you truly have never observed or been in these cases:

• We're driving and we see an accident happens; instead of stopping and call the police, we keep on our way anyway, assuming that someone would make the call or have already made the call.
• We see an animal lying on the road bleeding, but rather than stopping and helping it, we keep on our way anyway, assuming that someone else would deal with it or have already called the appropriate authority to deal with it (and we also assume that it's already dead).
• (insert more cases like these here)

==============================

And uh, I've no idea how to answer your question, either.

But I think it might have something to do with both of our tendency to "assume" AND how many ridiculous lawsuits occur from time to time. While the protection under Good Samaritan laws is quite satisfying, I think these ridiculous lawsuits do instill fear of liability to us to certain levels.

In fact, try search on Google for ridiculous lawsuits 2011 [link to search result here] and have a look over some of them. Rather interesting, no?

=============================

Slightly off topic, but even Dr. Wachter, Professor of Medicine and Chief of the Division of Hospital Medicine at the University of California, San Francisco, admitted that he had had moments like these as well.

An excerpt from one of his blog posts:
[read the full post here]

Recently, I was somewhere over Saskatchewan, returning from a lovely Mediterranean cruise, in that uncomfortable semi-conscious state that passes for sleep when you’re flying coach, when the airplane’s PA system rang out:

“If there’s a doctor on board, please ring your call button!”

[...]

I waited a few seconds, heard another “Bing!,” breathed a sigh of relief, was elbowed in the ribs by my son Benjy, and then, shamed into it, hit the button. The flight attendant came over, thanked me, and told me that another doctor had already been selected. “I’m sorry,” I replied, which is weasel talk for “Whew!”

[...]

Answering the “is there a doc on the plane?” call is one of the purest expressions of our Hippocratic oath, and our professionalism. We have no obligation to respond, and no contractual relationship. We worry a bit about liability (though the protections under Good Samaritan laws are fairly robust). No money changes hands (the airlines sometimes credit you with a few thousand frequent flyer miles or give you a free drink), and there are no CT scanners or fancy consultants. It’s just you, armed with your wits and experience, a sick and scared patient and family member, and about 200 interested observers.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Digilodger

I believe it's more of "assume" than apathy. (The joke is that when you "ass/u/me," you make an ass out of you and me.)

Tell me if you truly have never observed or been in these cases:

• We're driving and we see an accident happens; instead of stopping and call the police, we keep on our way anyway, assuming that someone would make the call or have already made the call.
• We see an animal lying on the road bleeding, but rather than stopping and helping it, we keep on our way anyway, assuming that someone else would deal with it or have already called the appropriate authority to deal with it (and we also assume that it's already dead).
• (insert more cases like these here)

==============================

And uh, I've no idea how to answer your question, either.

But I think it might have something to do with both of our tendency to "assume" AND how many ridiculous lawsuits occur from time to time. While the protection under Good Samaritan laws is quite satisfying, I think these ridiculous lawsuits do instill fear of liability to us to certain levels.

In fact, try search on Google for ridiculous lawsuits 2011 [link to search result here] and have a look over some of them. Rather interesting, no?

I try not to assume anything with people, especially ones I don't know, because in most cases such assumptions are based on an understanding of what a person would do, and your best understanding of any person is an understanding of yourself. I assume people are different from me, and know not to expect the same from them as I would from myself.

Originally Posted by Digilodger

[*]We're driving and we see an accident happens; instead of stopping and call the police, we keep on our way anyway, assuming that someone would make the call or have already made the call.[*]We see an animal lying on the road bleeding, but rather than stopping and helping it, we keep on our way anyway, assuming that someone else would deal with it or have already called the appropriate authority to deal with it (and we also assume that it's already dead).

In the first instance, it depends how severe the accident is. If it's someone's wing mirror that's come off, I'd just think "shit happens" and drive on. If it's people laid out on the road because a bus got ripped in two by a passing train, then I don't know. I've not been faced with something quite like that. Honestly speaking, I think I'd stop and help, but if I was in a real rush to get somewhere important, I don't know exactly how I'd weigh up the pros and cons of me helping, and how I'd weigh up exactly of what help I could be. I mean... there's risk of explosions, fuel leakage, plus all sort of medical reasons why you might not want to interfere when someone is paralysed etc... I wouldn't doubt I'd at least call emergency services.

In the second instance, I'm even less sure. Animals can be unpredictable, and trying to "help" bit might get my hand bitten off... so lol, I don't think I'd really try that. Would I call? Yes. Would I stop to help it? How can I help it??? I can't really. I know very little about animals, never had one apart from my mum adopting a stray cat once which urinated everywhere and dumped turds under the TV. The very most I'd do if I wasn't in a rush is perhaps make sure no one else runs it over. Stick a warning triangle out or something. Even if I was in a rush, I might stick the triangle out, and drive off then, they cost very little. It saves others from running it over further, possibly losing control of the car and ending up in a ditch.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by BDF

I've been reading some psychology in spare time here and there... and something I picked up on that got me interested is this trait in some people. It's always been there, but in the past 100 or so years, it's been brought out lot more in some people.

It's called sociopathy, although I do think it exists on a continuous scale. It's not a case of either you have it or you don't. Milder cases can easily be overlooked.

To be successful today, you frequently have to put yourself first. It means shelving your conscience to some extent, and not giving a crap about other people as much.

Yes... if everyone was like that, things just wouldn't work. But the concept of sociopathy works on the basis that one person (the sociopath), survives by usually putting others down to better himself or herself. His (or her) objective isn't necessarily to put others down, but it just so happens that it's becoming part of the equation to success, where you define success as having money rather than friends. Other people just become collateral damage.


But like I said, some people have it more than others in my opinion. The real dangerous ones are the people who are hard-wired that way, in their DNA, which I'd classify as evolution. It doesn't benefit the human race, but it does benefit the individual. Some people become somewhat sociopathic in response to their environment, which I classify as adaptation. If someone grows up in a shit neighbourhood, they learn and develop habits which help them to survive. I can quote myself... since I know myself better than anyone else does...

I can't afford to feel guilt or let my conscience get in the way if someone is for example trying to mug me. If they do so, I will knock their teeth out if I can, and walk off with no hard feelings. I think that goes for many people. You put your conscience on the shelf in cases like that. In cases like that, I don't care where they come from, who they are, or if they have friends/relatives. If someone has the audacity to pro-actively assault me to better himself, I'll raise the stakes too and level the playing field. That someone obviously has no hard feelings or guilt at the time when they'd assault me, so why should I in return?

And I'm not trying to accuse anyone of anything here. Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by BDF

Like I said... I don't think it's a case of either having it or not... and it manifests itself in many ways. Helping a dying person has no benefit to someone with little or no conscience, and in fact involves bagging more responsibility, since like Guile said... you have to then file police reports, turn up in court, maybe accompany the person on the way to hospital, etc.

It's a liability with no monetary gain, in that time is money also, and on top of that in some exceptional cases it could even get you in trouble.

I've been under impression that quite a lot of Chinese people can be quite cold when they first come over to the UK. I've never been to China, but I have a friend who's lived in the UK for a while now, and my step-dad, who're both Chinese, and neither of them are particularly fond of their home culture. The level of competition in China between people is frequently pathological. You're always hearing of Chinese kids winning the Global Maths Prize, or Chemistry Prize etc... it's all down to success, and this mindset has it's short term benefits but ultimately it screws a country up. You can only have one winner in that scenario, and people are willing to do anything to be the winner... so yep, like you said, everything goes to shit.

Disclaimer (lol): I wouldn't call anyone on here particularly a sociopath as such, not the way I understand it. Being here on this forum offers no monetary gain to anyone. Perhaps you get the odd troll drifting in... but that's different.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by ShimmeringFaerie

I seriously disagree. I don't think it is a normal or common response to flat-out ignore a toddler who is bleeding to death on the side of the road. I do agree that in certain situations, it's easier to say that we would do something than to actually do it, especially if we would be putting ourselves in physical/immediate danger by getting involved. I'd even be willing to agree that seeing a toddler who was so hurt might shock people into not being able to think clearly and do the right thing. But to see the situation and just ignore it and keep walking? There is nothing rational about that.

Maybe to you, but not to those people who actually did ignore it and keep walking. When I say rational, I don't mean that it's the right response, but a response that a majority of people probably would've done in that scenario. I'm taking CPR and First Aid training, and one of the important things about having someone call the ambulance is giving a specific person the job rather than asking for someone to call because no one would probably call if they weren't asked to. You would think calling the police is a simple task that only takes 15-30 seconds, but that bystander apathy is a real bitch because it alters your conception of rationality because it makes you think...oh, someone else will do it...I don't wanna get involved because I could get in trouble and become liable...stuff like that. The mind is an extremely powerful thing; it may seem rational when you're sitting on a computer chair, but it's completely different when you actually are put into that situation.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Brandon

Maybe to you, but not to those people who actually did ignore it and keep walking. When I say rational, I don't mean that it's the right response, but a response that a majority of people probably would've done in that scenario. I'm taking CPR and First Aid training, and one of the important things about having someone call the ambulance is giving a specific person the job rather than asking for someone to call because no one would probably call if they weren't asked to. You would think calling the police is a simple task that only takes 15-30 seconds, but that bystander apathy is a real bitch because it alters your conception of rationality because it makes you think...oh, someone else will do it...I don't wanna get involved because I could get in trouble and become liable...stuff like that. The mind is an extremely powerful thing; it may seem rational when you're sitting on a computer chair, but it's completely different when you actually are put into that situation.

Yea... it's hard to tell what you'd do unless you've actually been in a situation like that, and have learned from it. I can say quite comfortably that I find it difficult to stand by and let something like that happen. Not that I've helped a dying toddler before, but I can say I've helped people where I couldn't see anyone else willing to do so.

Less proudly, I can also say that the main reason I've helped people before is less to help them, and more because I have a chip on my shoulder and find it hard to hold back when I see someone else being bullied.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by BDF

It's called sociopathy, although I do think it exists on a continuous scale. It's not a case of either you have it or you don't. Milder cases can easily be overlooked.

It's called nonsense. Sociopathy is a meaningless term as its definition is not set so it can include different patterns of behaviours. Psychopathy on the other hand, is a legal term and its definition is set, so someone can be deemed psychopathic on a scale. This is an online forum so it's impossible to accurately suggest a label for someone and if you were to suggest Guile has a mild case of sociopathy (which I know you're not suggesting but humour me and play along), I'd laugh so hard I may fall off my chair because my knowledge and experience tells me he's the farthest thing from sociopathy or psychopathy.

Originally Posted by BDF

To be successful today, you frequently have to put yourself first. It means shelving your conscience to some extent, and not giving a crap about other people as much.

Agreed. The key point though is whether you have to repress any feelings in the first place or whether you don't give a shit to start with or feel next to nothing emotionally. It all depends on the situation, such as seeing someone get killed or a mangled corpse in front of your eyes, or simply seeing an online video of it. In this case, the video isn't that graphic and only the first vehicle plows over the kid's entire body, the second vehicle just polishes the kid's feet and knees.

Originally Posted by BDF

I can't afford to feel guilt or let my conscience get in the way if someone is for example trying to mug me. If they do so, I will knock their teeth out if I can, and walk off with no hard feelings. I think that goes for many people. You put your conscience on the shelf in cases like that. In cases like that, I don't care where they come from, who they are, or if they have friends/relatives. If someone has the audacity to pro-actively assault me to better himself, I'll raise the stakes too and level the playing field. That someone obviously has no hard feelings or guilt at the time when they'd assault me, so why should I in return?

Punching someone in the face who tries to mug you is far different than using a kid as a squirming speed bump, although I understand what you're saying.

Originally Posted by BDF

What the fuck did you expect? Flying turds, literally???

LOL, you just put a hilarious image in my mind of the kid getting hit by the car and shit flying out, just like hammering down on a tube of toothpaste with the lid off.

Originally Posted by Guile

No, I've never felt guilty in my entire life.

I don't find anything horrific or something to say, "wow, OMG". It depends on what things you've done and how you felt while doing so.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

It's called nonsense. Sociopathy is a meaningless term as its definition is not set so it can include different patterns of behaviours. Psychopathy on the other hand, is a legal term and its definition is set, so someone can be deemed psychopathic on a scale. This is an online forum so it's impossible to accurately suggest a label for someone and if you were to suggest Guile has a mild case of sociopathy (which I know you're not suggesting but humour me and play along), I'd laugh so hard I may fall off my chair because my knowledge and experience tells me he's the farthest thing from sociopathy or psychopathy.

I'm not looking at it from the legal standpoint, and I think the term psychopathy is often misused on people. Sociopathy to me however refers to what degree of conscience a person has, which so happens to correlate with success in life in terms of money. Besides... most legal definitions are open to interpretation, just like anything. It's not ever set. I don't know exactly what the legal definition of it is... but like I said, I'm not looking at it from a legal standpoint.

[chickenonsteroids]

The thing of pluralstic ignorance is a problem in this situation. If you see other people then you'll expect them to do it. It happens to all of us, whether it be hearing a fire alarm or just seeing a problem with loads of people in the same place as you are.

I watched the video and it what struck me was the drivers... once was stupid, the second time made me facepalm.

Yes it is ridiculous but remember that people only criticise others because they believe they'd do better in the same position, which isn't always true. I'm not saying everyone here would ignore her i'm just saying it happens.

Plus there might be a fear that they could get sued by her parents (if she had any i'm not to informed on that part) because there was a case where a woman broke her leg and ended up sueing the man that helped her. (i have no idea why) but when that fear is there, it messes with the moral compass

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by BDF

I'm not looking at it from the legal standpoint, and I think the term psychopathy is often misused on people. Sociopathy to me however refers to what degree of conscience a person has, which so happens to correlate with success in life in terms of money. Besides... most legal definitions are open to interpretation, just like anything. It's not ever set. I don't know exactly what the legal definition of it is... but like I said, I'm not looking at it from a legal standpoint.

I cant comment on "most legal definitions" because that's not my area of study. I find it laughable how you say psychopathy is often misused yet you admit to having no clue what it is. You have a point when it comes to movies, TV shows and general people who refer to someone as a psychopath, however, I was referring to real cases of psychopathy as well as "pseudo-psychopathy" (which is not a legal term and uses similar diagnostic methods).

Sociopathy and psychopathy are on the same playing field as they're both mental illnesses, even using your definition of sociopathy. Psychopathy isn't in the DSM nor ICD, however, it is diagnosed by doctors often using the PCL-R/PCL-YV/PCL-SV. In essence, it's a diagnosis backed by immense scientific research. It was not my intent to give a legal standpoint on it so hopefully you can see they are both mental illnesses and psychopathy is factored into clinical treatment just like any other pathology.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I find it laughable how you say psychopathy is often misused yet you admit to having no clue what it is.

I didn't do that lol... I said I dono the legal definition.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by BDF

I didn't do that lol... I said I dono the legal definition.

Then how do you explain the quote below lol

Originally Posted by BDF

I'm not looking at it from the legal standpoint, and I think the term psychopathy is often misused on people.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

Then how do you explain the quote below lol

waaaaat... ur twisting things lol

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by BDF

waaaaat... ur twisting things lol

Then untwist things and explain what you were referring to when you said you didn't do that.