Gangs Had No 'Pivotal Role' In English Riots

[BDF]

The article:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/gangs-had-n...100745055.html

I think I'll just quote one of the comments, which saves me maybe spending 30 minutes writing my own version:

"So gang members on the 7th and 8th of August were at home sipping their Horlicks and watching New Tricks instead of being out on the streets attacking police.

What arrant nonsense!!! The gangs involved in the riots would be both streetwise and battle hardened after years of feuding with their rivals and disputing control of the streets with police. They would be past masters at concealing their identities and doubtless will be more than content to allow the petty criminals and opportunists, who were careless in respect of their identities, to incur the wrath of the courts.

This is appears to be a ploy to reassure the public that gangs are not a major problem after all and will be of scant comfort to those who live on estates and in areas controlled by these gangs.

The figures quoted are completely meaningless"

[TigerTank77]

Orwell is rolling in his grave.

[Nostalgia]

I do not doubt for one moment that gangs were involved in the riots gangs may not have started the riots but they were involved! Gangs were not the only people rioting, you have to take the others into an account too like the 8 year old boy who got arrested for taking part, but the question the government should be asking themselves is ' What lead an 8 year old boy to take part in such aggressive and disruptive riots in the first place ? and where were the child's parents'.

The way I view the riots are : If the government was more bothered about improving the lives of people in UK, instead of spending the money on unessential roadworks and other unessential things I don't think the riots would have happened. The riots were just simply another indicator of the UK's current crisis and the UK's current decline of civilisation.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by SquidPid

Gangs were not the only people rioting, you have to take the others into an account too like the 8 year old boy who got arrested for taking part

8 year olds can join gangs too. Really... for some it even starts from 6.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by BDF

8 year olds can join gangs too. Really... for some it even starts from 6.

Yes but this 8 year old was not part of a gang just a kid taking part in the riots.

[Invert]

Originally Posted by BDF

8 year olds can join gangs too. Really... for some it even starts from 6.

then the Government should be asking "What lead an 8 year old boy to take part in such aggressive and disruptive riots? And what made him join a gang in the first place?"

I think that many gang members would have been involved in the riots, but it doesn't seem very typical of gang culture for them to have started it as a gang thing. Most gang violence is between gangs, it's a status thing. And It's undeniable that there were at least a huge number of none known gang members who were involved and arrest, regardless of what the porpotions are. So one can't say they were just gang riots.

Also this focus on it being a gang think, or 'mindless thugs' completely brushes the point under the rug. Things are clearly going on in this country, and they are effecting our youth, especially the poorest of them (just so you know, the majority of London riots were in the poorest parts). I'm not going to go into all the issues in this post, but I think it's harmful to deny and work on factors leading up to these events, especially in terms of prevention.

The who, is less important than the what. And even more important is the what now, the what to do. things like this need to be paid attention to:

Young people who were arrested were more likely to be regularly absent from school, to have special educational needs and to have achieved much lower than average school exam results, according to the Department for Education .

Because I'm pretty sure poverty, and things like this also actually increase the risk of a young person to get involved in gangs.

This is appears to be a ploy to reassure the public that gangs are not a major problem after all and will be of scant comfort to those who live on estates and in areas controlled by these gangs.

From the vast majority of things I've seen, it seems the other way round. The British public want to think it's gangs. They want to think its these particularly violent groups or just want some mindless violence. And that there are no social comments to be read from the riots, other than the police should get to be more powerful?

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by Invert

then the Government should be asking "What lead an 8 year old boy to take part in such aggressive and disruptive riots? And what made him join a gang in the first place?"

Exactly my point. and it also makes you wonder where are the 8 year olds parents, given most of the riots were in the evening , where were the 8 year old's parents ? Surely their parents would notices that at 11pm their 8 year old child is not in bed asleep ? or why an 8 year old would make the choice to take part riots on their own .

[BDF]

Let's clarify the mental thought process behind being part of a "gang".

Part of a gang is a group of people actually believing they're all part of a gang, another part arguably is other "gangs", people, and even police acknowledging the existence of that gang.

A lot of young kids now like to think themselves and their group of friends as a gang. They're not necessarily acknowledged by others for it, simply because they're too young and have't done enough to get "recognised" but they're pretty much set on the right path of joining the whole gang culture, if not in already being part of it.

[Nostalgia]

I know what a gang is . I am simply saying not all children are in gang's and some children such as this 8 year old I am talking about was NOT in a gang and acted alone. Gang or No gang, The government should be looking into the riots more and working out the meanings as to why so many children are turning to crime, and becoming part of a gang or acting alone and committing crime.

[Invert]

Originally Posted by BDF

Let's clarify the mental thought process behind being part of a "gang".

Part of a gang is a group of people actually believing they're all part of a gang, another part arguably is other "gangs", people, and even police acknowledging the existence of that gang.

A lot of young kids now like to think themselves and their group of friends as a gang. They're not necessarily acknowledged by others for it, simply because they're too young and have't done enough to get "recognised" but they're pretty much set on the right path of joining the whole gang culture, if not in already being part of it.

Not sure what you are getting at.

[Snufkin]

What data has been collected to say this number of people are in gangs? You think if a police officer asks a gang member if they're in a gang, they're going to get everyone telling the truth?

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Invert

Not sure what you are getting at.

There may be a lot more gangs out there, or at least pseudo-gangs if you like, with for example 8 year old members, than the police admit, or care to acknowledge.

13 year olds.... 9, 15, whatever.

[Nostalgia]

Yes but Not all of these are in gangs, yes there are gangs with children in them but then the police and government should be taking the correct action to find out what is leading an 8 or 9 year old to join a gang. Usually people join gangs to feel protected and safe and to have a sense of belonging.

If an 8 year old or a 9 year old is joining a gang, Surely the better question to ask would be ' What is going on in the child's home life for them to want to join a gang at such young age ?'

Are you really telling me that it is fine for a child to be in a gang ?

Because let me tell you something its not. And clearly the child has joined a gang either through being forced too by friends or to find the safety and protection and that feeling of belonging that they are not getting at home.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by SquidPid

Yes but Not all of these are in gangs, yes there are gangs with children in them but then the police and government should be taking the correct action to find out what is leading an 8 or 9 year old to join a gang. Usually people join gangs to feel protected and safe and to have a sense of belonging.

If an 8 year old or a 9 year old is joining a gang, Surely the better question to ask would be ' What is going on in the child's home life for them to want to join a gang at such young age ?'

Are you really telling me that it is fine for a child to be in a gang ?

Because let me tell you something its not. And clearly the child has joined a gang either through being forced too by friends or to find the safety and protection and that feeling of belonging that they are not getting at home.

I dono if the: "Are you really telling me that it is fine for a child to be in a gang?" is a rhetorical question or not... I hope it is. I definitely don't think it's fine under most conditions. It's understandable though that they'd join a gang in situations where they don't get what they need from home or school, or police, which is security and protection.

Originally Posted by SquidPid

And clearly the child has joined a gang either through being forced too by friends or...

Joining a gang is very rarely a matter of being "forced". It's not even a form of peer pressure. You just get drawn to it. Everyone needs company and people they can rely on, and some kids can only find that in gangs.


And what exactly do you expect the government to do? I've had my ideas in the past but frankly I'm lost now. This has been going on for several generations, which in their sector of society can number under 20 years. These "kids" are growing older, and newer, younger ones are replacing them... it's become something very difficult to uproot. If the government does find a way to deal with this, it will probably take another 20 years for it to work effectively. In the meantime power will change hands in the government several times, and nothing will get done anyway. On the other hand there is very drastic action such as introducing death penalty for petty crimes that young gangs are often involved in. No one would support that, neither do I, I don't think. There have been times when I felt like it yeah... I've lost my patience with dysfunctional asshole youths pestering me sometimes on bus stops etc many times.

There's no way the government can effectively deal with this directly. I always thought that it was essential to pass some legislation that make the parents responsible for everything their kid is up to. If they're gonna have kids, they damn well need to bring them up. If your kid kills someone, you go to prison for it, and the kid. If the kid beats someone up, the parents get sued. They have to be FORCED to shoulder the responsibility, because quite frankly a lot of these 20 year old parents don't give a shit. Also power has to be given back to the parents. How the hell are parents supposed to discipline kids if they're not even allowed to touch them? Those kids learn no boudaries, do wtf they like, and grow up thinking... and in fact KNOWING, that they can get away with a lot of shit, because actually, they can. They can because the problem is overwhelming the police and the government. There's just too much.

[Nostalgia]

Yes I know but I come from what is a deprived area, and most of our youth centres cannot open constantly due to spending cuts. So if there were more things for people to do, such as youth clubs that open every night and have somewhere for the kids to hang out and feel a sense of belonging in a safe controlled way around youth group leaders. Also here people do force you to join gangs, We have had many times when people have been bullied/forced into joining a gang.

More police patrols could help bring down the crime rating, I do not mind some gangs as not all gangs go out and commit crime. It's a tricky situation but if the government stopped spending money on roads which are perfectly well surfaced in the first place and actually asked the youth of today what they feel could improve the culture and environment that they lived in I'm pretty sure ' More places to go ' Would be top of that list. The government could also spend time holding classes on 'how to avoid getting caught in the world of the gangs' And give those who feel the need or who are forced /bullied into joining gangs counselling or therapy, as most join gangs due to have some description of family problems or due to being bullied by classmates into joining one.

The gangs that commit crime clearly do it because a: they are bored, b: they do it and attack others because their confidence and self esteem is that low, that the only way they can feel better about themselves is to target others who they deem and see to be more weaker and vulnerable than themselves.

I get this is not always the case but most of the time it is. And for the minority who are in a gang that just hangs around in town chatting and having a giggle, they do get looked upon as up to no good due to the number of violent crime gangs that seem to everywhere in the UK.

If the government surveyed young people and asked young people for their opinions on the current gang situation the UK has there would be some good ideas. But something does need to done.

Helping people who have joined gangs to feel better about themselves and sense of belonging being top of the list, sometimes joining a gang can also be a cry for help, which often goes unnoticed due to the law and government focusing on the behaviour and not the reason behind the behaviour of the individual or individuals involved.

The way I see it is : If the government and the police really wanted to do something about the situation and begin to reduce the large number of gangs they would, the fact that they have not just says to me that they cannot be bothered about the UK's current affairs and the UK's youth, therefore these sort of riots which we saw in early august which yes were mainly down to gangs but also individuals acting alone, will just happen again and again and again. If the government and the police really wanted to something about the situation they would. To me they are just letting the whole situation get worse and more out of hand.

[Invert]

Originally Posted by BDF

There may be a lot more gangs out there, or at least pseudo-gangs if you like, with for example 8 year old members, than the police admit, or care to acknowledge.

13 year olds.... 9, 15, whatever.

And this is something that needs addressing, because as you said in your following post, its been left going on far too long now. It doesnt mean we should just ignore it, and tell ourselves that angry disenfranchised youth who have ended up rioting must only be mindlessly looking for violence and be caused by gangs, because it does make you blind to the bigger picture, and maybe the 'at risk-youth' who havent crossed a line into gang-hood (though as people do sometimes reform from gangs, they aren't completely lost, and to act as though they can't be helped pretty much makes it fair more likely that they can't)

Originally Posted by BDF

Joining a gang is very rarely a matter of being "forced". It's not even a form of peer pressure. You just get drawn to it. Everyone needs company and people they can rely on, and some kids can only find that in gangs.

Look, you're are doing it, you are highlighting some of the contributing factors that can be worked on to help prevent kids (young people) joining gangs.

And what exactly do you expect the government to do? I've had my ideas in the past but frankly I'm lost now. This has been going on for several generations, which in their sector of society can number under 20 years. These "kids" are growing older, and newer, younger ones are replacing them... it's become something very difficult to uproot. If the government does find a way to deal with this, it will probably take another 20 years for it to work effectively. In the meantime power will change hands in the government several times, and nothing will get done anyway. On the other hand there is very drastic action such as introducing death penalty for petty crimes that young gangs are often involved in. No one would support that, neither do I, I don't think. There have been times when I felt like it yeah... I've lost my patience with dysfunctional asshole youths pestering me sometimes on bus stops etc many times.

Or the death penalty doesn't work as a deterent. But prevention is ideal anyway. And punishment (non-lethal that is) isn't that effective, especially if it doesn't consistantly happen every time. Like if you smash up a bus stop 10 times, and only get in trouble for it once, its not going to do much to reform you, severe or not. So instead of nessecerily crackning down on minors in gangs with ridiculous prison sentences and fines they could pay, a) working on programs with schools community, or even families who may already have a social worker. Highlight community specific issues that may help, or make the problem worse, etc.

There's no way the government can effectively deal with this directly.

As I keep saying, lets look at what is causing it, and what could be done. We already know high risk groups, like those in poverty, struggling at school, or those who may have had behavioural problems/disorders as teens, if they get into the wronf friendship groups. Its like saying lets do nothing about girl bullying because its hard to deal with directly as its invisible.

I always thought that it was essential to pass some legislation that make the parents responsible for everything their kid is up to. If they're gonna have kids, they damn well need to bring them up. If your kid kills someone, you go to prison for it, and the kid. If the kid beats someone up, the parents get sued. They have to be FORCED to shoulder the responsibility, because quite frankly a lot of these 20 year old parents don't give a shit. Also power has to be given back to the parents. How the hell are parents supposed to discipline kids if they're not even allowed to touch them? Those kids learn no boudaries, do wtf they like, and grow up thinking... and in fact KNOWING, that they can get away with a lot of shit, because actually, they can. They can because the problem is overwhelming the police and the government. There's just too much.

Yeah, this is a terrible idea. Considering even good parents sometimes have criminal children. People should be held accountable for their own actions within the legal system. Sure parents who are neglectful or whatnot do have something to be accounted for, but they should have to answer to their neglect, not go to prison for their kid's crime. There's only so much parents can do, and its even harder if you happen to be a single parent, as all the responsibility is on one person. And you often find parents of youth involved in crime are caring, and they do care, and they are shocked, appaulled, but also at a loss of what to do about it, other than report their own kids to the police. Which is clearly something parents would struggle to bring themselves to do (but such things have been happening).

Lets stop acting like the criminal justice system is the answer to solving the problem, its not, it's there for after crime, not before it occurs.

Schools are far better a place to look at campaigns than the justice system.

[BDF]

Invert, you're right on most things here. You're better at dealing with this than I am. I've had some extremely provoking encounters, and although I try to maintain an objective view of the whole situation, and I try to look at the big picture, many times I find it impossible to control myself and what I think of all of it. I start slipping into the ideology than an iron fist would solve all of this, but truthfully, I don't really support such action at all. It's just my anger getting the better of me then, and it over boils sometimes.

[Magic.]

I think the title of the article is on target. They weren't pivotal, but they sure as hell were out there. As for the kids issue, there were kids taken looting by their parents ... clearly the best role model parenting can offer.

If I'm right Invert, what you're saying is that prevention is key. I definately agree with you there. They've tried all sorts of other punishments blah blah and it doesn't help. What kids need is good roles models, and things to do that aren't destructive. A lot of kdis especially from poorer backgrounds don't have things to do, in the area I grew up in, one of the worst economically in London, there was nothing for kids/teens to do without paying for it. So most kids hung about on street corners and ended up drawn into gangs. When a few things opened up recently they were successful in reducing teen crime and gang membership. Yay prevention! :P