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  (#81 (permalink)) Old
Kyeto-X Offline
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Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 - November 4th 2011, 03:03 AM

Ok, my two cents.

I am torn by this decision, because I have seen both sides of the "disabled child" equation.

1) my fiancee has several genetic issues, neurofibromitosis, cebral palsey, asthma, the list goes on. Her mom knew about some of these disorders before she gave birth. All of these, (plus the fact that the pregnancy was a resault of infidelity ) are good reasons according the eugenics to abort the pregnancy. Her medication cost more then my rent a month as a copay, she has had upwards of 12 surguries in her life, looking at a 13th here in a few months...

And yet, she is a straight A student, wanting to be a pediatric oncologist. She volunteers at her after school program is her schools GSA president, and my lover. She is a successful person and is giving back to her community.

However, example 2) ....

One of my college friends invited me to his house over spring break. He explained that he has a severly disabled little sister. I didn't realized how bad it was until I got there. She was in a specially designed crib that was floor to ceiling. She did not communicate with the outside world except through grunts and screams. And she prevented the family from traveling far from home because her diaper needed to be changed every few hours. Her family tried to take care of her as best they can, but they also have a foster family that takes her for half the week to give the family a break. I was polite and didn't say anything to the family...but the obvious question is why spend all this time and money and effort on someone who is doing nothing except be a burden...all of that money could have been spent on food, clothes, repairing cars, anything else that would have helped the economy...


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  (#82 (permalink)) Old
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Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 - November 4th 2011, 03:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyeto-X View Post
Ok, my two cents.

I am torn by this decision, because I have seen both sides of the "disabled child" equation.

1) my fiancee has several genetic issues, neurofibromitosis, cebral palsey, asthma, the list goes on. Her mom knew about some of these disorders before she gave birth. All of these, (plus the fact that the pregnancy was a resault of infidelity ) are good reasons according the eugenics to abort the pregnancy. Her medication cost more then my rent a month as a copay, she has had upwards of 12 surguries in her life, looking at a 13th here in a few months...

And yet, she is a straight A student, wanting to be a pediatric oncologist. She volunteers at her after school program is her schools GSA president, and my lover. She is a successful person and is giving back to her community.

However, example 2) ....

One of my college friends invited me to his house over spring break. He explained that he has a severly disabled little sister. I didn't realized how bad it was until I got there. She was in a specially designed crib that was floor to ceiling. She did not communicate with the outside world except through grunts and screams. And she prevented the family from traveling far from home because her diaper needed to be changed every few hours. Her family tried to take care of her as best they can, but they also have a foster family that takes her for half the week to give the family a break. I was polite and didn't say anything to the family...but the obvious question is why spend all this time and money and effort on someone who is doing nothing except be a burden...all of that money could have been spent on food, clothes, repairing cars, anything else that would have helped the economy...
I agree, there certainly is a difference between those who have disabilities but can contribute and those who can't. I have no problem with those who can contribute but have a disability doing so, it's good for everyone, although I'd hope they do the responsible thing and don't have children. A whole other story for those who can't contribute though.
   
  (#83 (permalink)) Old
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Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 - November 4th 2011, 08:54 AM

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Originally Posted by Cosmo View Post


I agree, there certainly is a difference between those who have disabilities but can contribute and those who can't. I have no problem with those who can contribute but have a disability doing so, it's good for everyone, although I'd hope they do the responsible thing and don't have children. A whole other story for those who can't contribute though.
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  (#84 (permalink)) Old
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Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 - November 4th 2011, 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyeto-X View Post
One of my college friends invited me to his house over spring break. He explained that he has a severly disabled little sister. I didn't realized how bad it was until I got there. She was in a specially designed crib that was floor to ceiling. She did not communicate with the outside world except through grunts and screams. And she prevented the family from traveling far from home because her diaper needed to be changed every few hours. Her family tried to take care of her as best they can, but they also have a foster family that takes her for half the week to give the family a break. I was polite and didn't say anything to the family...but the obvious question is why spend all this time and money and effort on someone who is doing nothing except be a burden...all of that money could have been spent on food, clothes, repairing cars, anything else that would have helped the economy...
This is really one of my big problems with discussion of eugenics. If you were to say, hey, this girl has a horrible life, her family suffers because of it, it would be best if nobody had to go through that... I would definitely understand that. What we can reasonably do to prevent anyone from living a life like this should be done.

However, firstly, we're talking about preventing it before birth, but I feel we're talking about this girl as she is this massive waste of space and shouldn't exist, where the focus should be on preventing this happening for future generations, not amending, what some might crudely call 'mistakes' (note: I am not calling human beings mistakes, I am merely stating were I fear this argument could go).

The second thing I have a problem is that you did not really mention this in the context I've put it in (that people shouldn't suffer) but rather that people like this are a waste to society, that they can't 'contribute', and that the family could have spent the money caring for her on other things like 'cars, food and clothes', and labelling her a burden. Now I realise this may look like semantics, since we are basically talking about the same thing and I may look like I'm coming off trying to be holier than thou by couching it in 'nice terms', but my issue with your phrasing is that I wonder how far the attitude of 'only people who can contribute to society should be able to live', tackling the issue with very little empathy and assessing people on value (if X weren't alive we would have been able to buy a house by now) will go, and how much of it will spill over into after these people are born (rather than looking at it in terms of avoiding people being born with dibilitating disabilities in the first place).


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  (#85 (permalink)) Old
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Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 - November 4th 2011, 04:57 PM

To be fair, it doesn't sound like someone in that position described in 2) is going to have children anyway, which is what this debate seems to be about. Her right to life and quality of living belong to a completely different debate. I agree with Marguerite (unsurprisingly) that mentioning money and what else it could be spent on is a bit like putting a price on life, which is a bit scary.




   
  (#86 (permalink)) Old
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Re: World Population to Reach 7 Billion on Oct. 31 - November 4th 2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDF View Post
You sound like you're turning this into potentially quite a technical scientific debate over how evolution and gene pools work.


You better believe it. Anything to do with genetics is immediately a technical scientific debate in my book, hence why I reacted as I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDF View Post
If we systematically kick the people with "bad genes" out of our gene pool, we'l be reducing over the time the chances of such "bad genes" being passed down. I don't think science and technology have developed anywhere near enough yet to make this kind of action feasible anyway. There'd be no point in "weeding out" some of the bad genes, and then letting them spread across the population again because we didn't have enough resources to finish the job.


You seem to have missed my point - how you define "good" and "bad" genes is utterly subjective and dependent on what you feel are "good" traits for a species to have. That does not make it an accurate yardstick for ANY decision which concerns the future survival of any species, including our own. I really cannot stress strongly enough how foolhardy an enterprise this really is.

On a wider note, and as my final contribution to this thread, I honestly find some of the sentiments being expressed here completely abhorrent and I sincerely hope we are never in a position where they are taken seriously. I would want no part in a society capable of such acts.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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