Non-PG13 (Strong Language): Racist rant on tram

[Snufkin]

I've heard some pretty offensive things in my time, but even still, this is pretty shocking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i47Ho...layer_embedded

I can't decide if this is a new way of thinking for some members of society, or she's just a crazy coke addict. Either way, it's incredibly out of line.

[The Goblins Blade]

This racist cow represents everything i hate, her ignorance will backfire one day.

[Reverie.]

To be honest if she had an opinion she could have expressed it in a calmer way with less of the clear offensive racism, and probably could have done it minus the kid on her lap. People like this annoy me. She's entitled her her opinion but the way she went about saying is was out of line.

[Aletheia*]

Does anyone else think this woman is drunk? Or high? Or on a combination of both?

This woman had an opinion, which she expressed. She could have expressed it in a calmer way, or kept it to herself. There WERE children on the tram, and out of respect for the children around her and on her lap, she could have kept her mouth shut.

The lady who begins talking at about 2:00 minutes, is my hero!

[Cosmo]

Racist bitch is everything that is wrong with my country.

[The Goblins Blade]

Originally Posted by Cosmo

Racist bitch is everything that is wrong with my country.

Its embarrasing to share the same island with her.

[Cosmo]

The problem is that she is not part of some small racist minority.

The amount of people who think things similar to her is actually a very, very large number that just keeps growing.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Cosmo

The problem is that she is not part of some small racist minority.

The amount of people who think things similar to her is actually a very, very large number that just keeps growing.

I'm British, and I stand against all those racist fuckwits to the death. As long as they keep their shit to themselves, I'm at peace. If I'm confronted with it directly then... [would probably get censored]

I just feel sorry for the kid. This is one of the rare occasions when I'd actually fully support social services taking this kid away from her. For two reasons:

1. To save the kid from turning the same
2. To cause the bitch pain (assuming she even cares for the kid)

Someone should draw their attention to this. I hope someone will. I obviously don't know her name, or I'd actually do it personally, and probably tomorrow.

[BDF]

Lots of British workers, frankly, suck. The builders seem to think that a 3 hour shift from 11am to 2pm with a 2 hour lunch break in the middle, deserves them pay, and then bitch on Polish and Lithuanians coming over and stealing their trade. If Britain was to rely on those kind of shit useless people, we'd have been in the same recession we're in now 20 years ago, and by today a 3rd world country looking up to Africa for help.

And these kind of people aren't actually a minority. Go to the office, like I did on some brief work experience. They gossip most of the time, doing fuckall. And it's not necessarily ethnic Brits, it's any second generation foreigner who was born in this country also quite frequently. The damn culture is spreading to them too now.

P.S. Doesn't apply to all British, but too many, waaaay too many. And I wouldn't mind, if they at least shut their mouths and accepted that their work ethic sucks, and maybe even tried to do something about it. But no, most of the time, they turn racist and blame their lack of employment on foreigners.

Look at the like/dislike bar: 20% of people actually like this video. Considering that most of the dislikes are probably foreigners (most of our population is foreigners by now), the 20% probably turns into 50% +, at least.

[Lottie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15923875

She's been arrested as a result of the video. Thank god. She deserves all that she gets. I really feel sorry for her poor kid!!!

[The Goblins Blade]

Originally Posted by BDF

Lots of British workers, frankly, suck. The builders seem to think that a 3 hour shift from 11am to 2pm with a 2 hour lunch break in the middle, deserves them pay, and the bitch on Polish coming over and stealing their trade. If Britain was to rely on those kind of shit useless people, we'd have been in the same recession we're in now 20 years ago, and by today a 3rd world country looking up to Africa for help.

And these kind of people aren't actually a minority. Go to the office, like I did on some brief work experience. They gossip most of the time, doing fuckall. And it's not necessarily ethnic Brits, it's any second generation foreigner who was born in this country also quite frequently. The damn culture is spreading to them too now.

P.S. Doesn't apply to all British, but too many, waaaay too many. And I wouldn't mind, if they at least shut their mouths and accepted that their work ethic sucks, and maybe even tried to do something about it. But no, most of the time, they turn racist and blame their lack of employment on foreigners.

We need immagrants, they bring alot to the economy, etc

[Skeleton]

I agree that she must have been drunk or something and it was completely out of order to do something like that. Yes, she has an opinion but there is much better, calmer ways to get your opinion across rather than yelling on a tram in front of loads of people, some of which are children. I'm glad to hear that something has been done about it.

[Cosmo]

Immigrant workers, especially Polish people who have incredible work ethics, just do a much better job than British. They work harder, are more efficient, require less, complain less, are paid less (unfortunately) and overall contribute a lot to society. A lot of them make a really good effort to learn english as well. I really don't get all this hate.

[The Goblins Blade]

Kind of ironic that our ancestors invaded other lands and raped, pillaged, stole, etc from these countries but now british are moaning that people from other countries are coming over here.

[Snufkin]

Originally Posted by Skeleton

I agree that she must have been drunk or something and it was completely out of order to do something like that. Yes, she has an opinion but there is much better, calmer ways to get your opinion across rather than yelling on a tram in front of loads of people, some of which are children. I'm glad to hear that something has been done about it.

Interesting point. What way is it appropriate to put across the ideals she was spewing?

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Snufkin

Interesting point. What way is it appropriate to put across the ideals she was spewing?

In no way.

[Cosmo]

I think it's about time we stopped pretending all opinions should be acceptable to hold.

[The Goblins Blade]

Originally Posted by Snufkin

Interesting point. What way is it appropriate to put across the ideals she was spewing?

What she said was no where near appropriate

[Snufkin]

Originally Posted by The Goblins Blade

What she said was no where near appropriate

I realise that given the location of her rant and the way she presented it was completely inappropriate. But I asked is there any way she can possibly put her views across without coming off completely offensive? Is there any appropriate way to state her beliefs? Or is she completely wrong, and should therefore not state them, since she isn't going to stop believing them.

Just saw on Twitter "Woman arrested for reading the Daily Mail aloud on a train." I lol'd.

[dr2005]

Originally Posted by Snufkin

Just saw on Twitter "Woman arrested for reading the Daily Mail aloud on a train." I lol'd.

But I digress...I think ultimately it comes down to the fact that views like that which are based on hatred and intolerance can never really be put across in an inoffensive way, for the simple reason that offensiveness is part and parcel of them. "Mutton dressed as lamb" is the phrase which springs to mind - however much you try and dress them up (and people have), it's still hatred and intolerance at its core and that's always going to offend.

On a side note, massive respect to both women who confronted her, and I am very glad to hear that she has been arrested for this. Whatever her views on migration, she has no right to tell people to get out of the country or abuse them in the manner that she did.

[Guile]

Originally Posted by Snufkin

I realise that given the location of her rant and the way she presented it was completely inappropriate. But I asked is there any way she can possibly put her views across without coming off completely offensive? Is there any appropriate way to state her beliefs? Or is she completely wrong, and should therefore not state them, since she isn't going to stop believing them.

Just saw on Twitter "Woman arrested for reading the Daily Mail aloud on a train." I lol'd.

There are ways to say it with more tact. She could have said "I feel that the large amount of immigration from the Middle East and the former Soviet states has begun to wear away at our traditional Englsh culture and change the ethnic and social homogenity of our country, and as such, has begun to degrade our values, and ideals. While I respect their culture, and value their contribution to the world, that does not mean I wish to share in their culture and customs, but I in no way feel any hate for them, I simply want to maintain a homegenous nation."

It's people like her who make respectable individuals, such as myself, look bad. Sure, I may hate immigrants, but I'm intelligent enough not to spew profanity in an attempt to express my views.

[Acheron]

Originally Posted by Guile

There are ways to say it with more tact. She could have said "I feel that the large amount of immigration from the Middle East and the former Soviet states has begun to wear away at our traditional Englsh culture and change the ethnic and social homogenity of our country, and as such, has begun to degrade our values, and ideals. While I respect their culture, and value their contribution to the world, that does not mean I wish to share in their culture and customs, but I in no way feel any hate for them, I simply want to maintain a homegenous nation."

You think that chav bitch knows even half of those words?

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

It's useless to say, "well, she could've said it in a calmer way" because that implies one would agree with her if she toned her language down. She could've danced with the Black person or used her kid's head as a bongo while singing but either way, it's arriving at the same conclusion as her via a small detour. For those of you who indeed said she could or should have used calmer language, do you agree with her overall points?

I think the only reason she didn't get smacked upside the head was because she had the kid with her, although I did find it pretty hilarious when the other White British female started shouting once her kid got woken up, as though her shouting would somehow make it fall back asleep. I do hope she was drunk or high because if she always acts in such a manner, then I feel sorry for her kid.

Anyway, onto the important area of the content of her mouthing. Immigrants are vital for the economy of North American and European countries. If the immigrants were elsewhere, she'd have a lot less to mouth off about. Immigrants serve many roles, one of which is cheap labour and in my view, if they choose to come over to a particular country, they should be exploited for their manual power, no free ride. I think it's good that immigrants bring their cultures and customs because even if I dislike them, I can at least explore them with first-hand experience rather than immediately dismissing them. Just because the immigrants are in the country does not mean she has to show equal respect or value their cultural ideals. At the same time, mouthing off alienates her from fellow Brits who she may normally get along with, so it's a lose-lose situation for her.

[TheNumber42]

I lol'd

Bish is lucky that she is a chick and had a kid of her lap. Was really liable to get her ass kicked after all that..

[Guile]

Originally Posted by Acheron

You think that chav bitch knows even half of those words?

Maybe I'm just too much of an optimist

[Pelios]

The woman in the back that stood up with a "I'm going to kick your ass" face (1:13) it would of been epic if she did in fact kick her ass.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Pelios

The woman in the back that stood up with a "I'm going to kick your ass" face (1:13) it would of been epic if she did in fact kick her ass.

Lol... I so badly wanted it to happen.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Pelios

The woman in the back that stood up with a "I'm going to kick your ass" face (1:13) it would of been epic if she did in fact kick her ass.

when I saw that I thought there was going to smack her several times and someone would have to juggle the kid so it wouldn't fall. Oh well, I'm sure if she acts like that without the kid, then someone will kick her ass if they haven't already lol.

[BDF]

This is awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvUyP...eature=related

[Guardian_Angel]

Originally Posted by Guile

There are ways to say it with more tact. She could have said "I feel that the large amount of immigration from the Middle East and the former Soviet states has begun to wear away at our traditional Englsh culture and change the ethnic and social homogenity of our country, and as such, has begun to degrade our values, and ideals. While I respect their culture, and value their contribution to the world, that does not mean I wish to share in their culture and customs, but I in no way feel any hate for them, I simply want to maintain a homegenous nation."

It's people like her who make respectable individuals, such as myself, look bad. Sure, I may hate immigrants, but I'm intelligent enough not to spew profanity in an attempt to express my views.

Well the problem is, that Britain unlike america doesn't REALLY have homogeneous values or ideals, we have no constitution to tell us what our inherent values are, and in fact if you look at our history, we are an island of mongrels which have a culture of continuously accepting and assimilating other cultures. Ask a large majority of people and they would say Britishness is politeness and tolerance, which is what she is in contravention to what she is doing.

People are now blaming mental illness on this woman's outburst, if she indeed had a mental illness, which inhibited her ability to regulate this behaviour that is one thing. If she has a mental illness such as depression, I hope they don't use it as a scape goat.

Finally, if there is one question I wish answered, that is; Where the hell do these racists wish me to go!

I have a white father and a black mother, Do they send me half way to Jamaica, end up on St. Helenas, or half way to Africa, end up in the Mediterranean!

[The Goblins Blade]

Originally Posted by Guardian_Angel

Well the problem is, that Britain unlike america doesn't REALLY have homogeneous values or ideals, we have no constitution to tell us what our inherent values are, and in fact if you look at our history, we are an island of mongrels which have a culture of continuously accepting and assimilating other cultures. Ask a large majority of people and they would say Britishness is politeness and tolerance, which is what she is in contravention to what she is doing.

People are now blaming mental illness on this woman's outburst, if she indeed had a mental illness, which inhibited her ability to regulate this behaviour that is one thing. If she has a mental illness such as depression, I hope they don't use it as a scape goat.

Finally, if there is one question I wish answered, that is; Where the hell do these racists wish me to go!

I have a white father and a black mother, Do they send me half way to Jamaica, end up on St. Helenas, or half way to Africa, end up in the Mediterranean!

Funny thing is that everyone in the uk is descended from an immagrant. The uk was just an empty island untill humans first settled here just after the ice age. So when rascist fools tell people from other countries to 'go home' they are just infact saying that to themselfs really.

makes me lol

[Snufkin]

ITN have reported on another video, though Youtube says it's two years old, as did the report.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW1wkVY6RFI

Also offensive and full of swearing. Same woman?

[Marguerite]

I think the real problem here is when people say 'If she'd just expressed her views in a calmer way...'

People do express those views in a calmer way. They're called conservative politicians and 'journalists' for Murdoch's rags. It's a damn shame that being racist is totally acceptable if you are educated and approach it with some tact. I don't really see much difference between what Guille said and what this woman said. Basically the same thing except Guille has a better grasp of the English language and probably doesn't live in a trailer.

It doesn't change the core values of what they both are saying... both statements were xenophobic. One's just dressed up nicely.

[BDF]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

I think the real problem here is when people say 'If she'd just expressed her views in a calmer way...'

People do express those views in a calmer way. They're called conservative politicians and 'journalists' for Murdoch's rags. It's a damn shame that being racist is totally acceptable if you are educated and approach it with some tact. I don't really see much difference between what Guille said and what this woman said. Basically the same thing except Guille has a better grasp of the English language and probably doesn't live in a trailer.

It doesn't change the core values of what they both are saying... both statements were xenophobic. One's just dressed up nicely.

Originally Posted by Guile

There are ways to say it with more tact. She could have said "I feel that the large amount of immigration from the Middle East and the former Soviet states has begun to wear away at our traditional Englsh culture and change the ethnic and social homogenity of our country, and as such, has begun to degrade our values, and ideals. While I respect their culture, and value their contribution to the world, that does not mean I wish to share in their culture and customs, but I in no way feel any hate for them, I simply want to maintain a homegenous nation."

I certainly don't see myself as a racist, but I understand where Guile is coming from to some extent. I find myself losing my nerve when I hear of "honour killings" in Indian families because the son or daughter refused to take part in an arranged marriage. I find the tradition of female oppression that is inherent in large parts of the Arab culture frequently abhorrent, and I don't want anything to do with it. Not long ago there was a boiler mechanic sent to my mum's house from British Gas I think. He was Arab, and spoke to my mum like she was piece of shit. At first outright refused to talk to her, asking for my step-dad, and then she lost her nerve and completely mouthed him down. I didn't step in at any point. I knew she'd handle it the right way. I just laughed at his blank stare once she was done with him.

I also find it provocative frequently just how much the government seems to be bending over to accommodate immigrants. There are school uniforms in most British schools, and yet somehow some Arabs are exempt from this because of their religion. When they're sent home, the school gets sued.


There are some bits of foreign cultures that I don't want in my country, unfortunately. The people I don't mind, as long as they keep their culture in check so it doesn't interfere with mine, which usually isn't a problem. Ultimately, "honour kills" hardly affect me. It hasn't happened to any of my friends, or anyone I know.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

I think the real problem here is when people say 'If she'd just expressed her views in a calmer way...'

People do express those views in a calmer way. They're called conservative politicians and 'journalists' for Murdoch's rags. It's a damn shame that being racist is totally acceptable if you are educated and approach it with some tact. I don't really see much difference between what Guille said and what this woman said. Basically the same thing except Guille has a better grasp of the English language and probably doesn't live in a trailer.

It doesn't change the core values of what they both are saying... both statements were xenophobic. One's just dressed up nicely.

Beautifully written.

Originally Posted by BDF

I also find it provocative frequently just how much the government seems to be bending over to accommodate immigrants. There are school uniforms in most British schools, and yet somehow some Arabs are exempt from this because of their religion. When they're sent home, the school gets sued.

I don't mind if they wear turbans, hell they could wrap their head in used underwear for all I care as long as they abide by the clothing guidelines set by the school. However, when it comes to wearing traditional religious garments either instead or over the school clothing, I find that unacceptable. I'm fine with cultural diversity (to an extent), however, by wearing their clothing in place of school uniforms implies their culture is dominant. Either they obey and wear the school uniforms or they go elsewhere. I'm not sure if all British schools have school uniforms or if only certain ones do but in Canada, some schools have school uniforms while others don't, although they still have general guidelines.

The Canadian government bends over backward to accomodate the wishes of the Aboriginals, which I cannot agree with for personal reasons as well as for the fact it hurts the national economy. Mining occurs in northern parts of Canada and northern provinces, which happens to be near where many of the Aboriginal reserves are. However, the government allows these people to not only allow the miners and other related individuals onto the mine when it's near their reserves, they also have to hire some of these people, pay them and give them managerial abilities. They've even allowed them to choose where they'll settle and many of them choose these prosperous mining areas. In their attempt to be "equal", they're given additional luxuries and then whine and bitch to get more luxuries. For whatever reason, the government seems unable to refuse. When the government doesn't want to comply, they get accused of furthering the cultural genocide or being racist.

[Guile]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

I think the real problem here is when people say 'If she'd just expressed her views in a calmer way...'

People do express those views in a calmer way. They're called conservative politicians and 'journalists' for Murdoch's rags. It's a damn shame that being racist is totally acceptable if you are educated and approach it with some tact. I don't really see much difference between what Guille said and what this woman said. Basically the same thing except Guille has a better grasp of the English language and probably doesn't live in a trailer.

It doesn't change the core values of what they both are saying... both statements were xenophobic. One's just dressed up nicely.

What's so wrong with Xenophobia? If my ancestors worked the land on which we live, as do my cultural brethren, I want that positive environment to be shared among my people. My grandfather didn't work hard every day so that someone from India could have a better life, he worked hard so that I, and the rest of our people could. We created one of the world's most powerful nations, sure, we were a country of (legal) immigrants, but there's definitely a difference between "My ancestors came here, legally, in the 1600s" and "I come to country, I get good job, wife in Pakistan come to, have eight kids, etc.".

We have the right to an opinion, and the right to express an opinion, this woman may have offended you, and most other people. Yet, why is it not important when I am offended when I see someone burning our flag, or saying that destroying our traditional culture is good? I just want to be around people like myself, with similar values, culture, and ethnic backgrounds. Does that mean I hate people from other countries? No, I just don't have any desire to walk them into my country. France for the French, England for the English, etc.

[Ibanez]

Originally Posted by Guile

there's definitely a difference between "My ancestors came here, legally, in the 1600s" and "I come to country, I get good job, wife in Pakistan come to, have eight kids, etc.".

Great comparison, because those poor Irish and Italian immigrants in the 19th century who essentially built the United States don't have large families at all.

[Snufkin]

Or indeed a large grasp of the English language.

[Guile]

Originally Posted by Caliber

Great comparison, because those poor Irish and Italian immigrants in the 19th century who essentially built the United States don't have large families at all.

I'm not Italian, nor am I Irish, I am German, my family is German, and we arrived here in 1600's on my mother's side, and the mid 1800's on my father's side. But on the other hand, both those groups have made major contributions to the nation, while the current immigrants to England are not.

[Marguerite]

Sorry, this is going to be long... but did you really expect anything else?

Originally Posted by BDF

I certainly don't see myself as a racist, but I understand where Guile is coming from to some extent. I find myself losing my nerve when I hear of "honour killings" in Indian families because the son or daughter refused to take part in an arranged marriage. I find the tradition of female oppression that is inherent in large parts of the Arab culture frequently abhorrent, and I don't want anything to do with it. Not long ago there was a boiler mechanic sent to my mum's house from British Gas I think. He was Arab, and spoke to my mum like she was piece of shit. At first outright refused to talk to her, asking for my step-dad, and then she lost her nerve and completely mouthed him down. I didn't step in at any point. I knew she'd handle it the right way. I just laughed at his blank stare once she was done with him.

I also find it provocative frequently just how much the government seems to be bending over to accommodate immigrants. There are school uniforms in most British schools, and yet somehow some Arabs are exempt from this because of their religion. When they're sent home, the school gets sued.


There are some bits of foreign cultures that I don't want in my country, unfortunately. The people I don't mind, as long as they keep their culture in check so it doesn't interfere with mine, which usually isn't a problem. Ultimately, "honour kills" hardly affect me. It hasn't happened to any of my friends, or anyone I know.

Of course. I don't think anyone is defending honour killings. My problem is really your perception. I don't think you're racist at all but I think you're taking in all the wrong things. If there was a mass entry of radical islamists (or radical anything) into our countries who were intent on forcing their values onto us and trying to bring Sharia Law here or something similar I'd be right on this 'send 'em home' bandwagon. The thing is though that these stories are few and far between. Some crazy Sheik declares our women dress like whores, or a fundamentalist sues a school for making their child sing the national anthem, or a radical Muslim father kills his daughter for having sexual relations with someone outside of their culture and all of a sudden there are Muslims everywhere not content with living with their 'peverted, sexist, offensive' views but trying to push them onto us. And God, they're EVERYWHERE, and they're ALL trying to convert us to Islam!

I think this is steadily changing because of the rise of atheism but on the whole we don't do this with other cultures and religions. People don't look at the WBC and say "Good Lord, why are all these Christians picketing outside funerals all of a sudden!". Anders Breivik is not a religious terrorist, he's just a lone nut job who defies everything Christianity 'actually' stands for. You'd be forgiven for thinking these things because it's perpetuated so much by the mainstream media. I hear people all the time say this ('I don't have anything against these 'muslims' but I wish they'd stop trying to make ME muslim'). You ask them when was the last time they met a muslim who tried to force them to become one, or even just met a muslim full stop. The answer is always "Well, er, no, but I read/saw a story in/on Today Tonight/Fox News/The Daily Mail which said Muslims like to club baby seals to death with orphans from Darfur!"

Originally Posted by Guile

What's so wrong with Xenophobia? If my ancestors worked the land on which we live, as do my cultural brethren, I want that positive environment to be shared among my people. My grandfather didn't work hard every day so that someone from India could have a better life, he worked hard so that I, and the rest of our people could. We created one of the world's most powerful nations, sure, we were a country of (legal) immigrants, but there's definitely a difference between "My ancestors came here, legally, in the 1600s" and "I come to country, I get good job, wife in Pakistan come to, have eight kids, etc.".

We have the right to an opinion, and the right to express an opinion, this woman may have offended you, and most other people. Yet, why is it not important when I am offended when I see someone burning our flag, or saying that destroying our traditional culture is good? I just want to be around people like myself, with similar values, culture, and ethnic backgrounds. Does that mean I hate people from other countries? No, I just don't have any desire to walk them into my country. France for the French, England for the English, etc.

Let me make this clear: I very obviously disagree with you and find your opinions on this matter quite disturbing. But I'd fight to the death for your right to have it. I'm not anti opinion. You obviously disagree but what I like about our respective countries is that we have such a diversity of opinions and culture... but I'm going to get to that later.

My real problem isn't with you or even this woman. My problem is with people who don't own what they believe and try to pass it off as merely objective observation. I've been here long enough to know you don't hold back on your opinion and you're not going to BS about it. In fact I'm sure a lot of what you say is what other people are thinking but are too afraid to voice. While you views irritate me a lot (most) of the time at least you're honest and I know where you stand. That DOES NOT mean I am okay with picking up a news paper and reading an opinion piece thinly veiled as unbiased, straight journalism which blatently lies and whips people into moral panic.

As for this whole idea of our culture being forcibly changed, I agree. Our culture has changed dramatically. That's just what happens. We seem to have this antiquated notion floating around the western world that culture is unchangable. That is complete BS in my opinion. Our culture is completely different now than it was 10 years ago due to the influx in technology. It's certainly not the world our forefathers were forging, and what's so bad about that? Personally I don't want to live in a world where we place value on the same things that were valued in 1788 or 1901.

As for this whole 'They were fighting for us so that we...' argument, I don't agree with that either. I often wonder about that train of thought. I think people 100 years ago or 200 years ago or 50 years ago were thinking about themselves. How to survive. How to better their own lives. I don't think they were sitting around thinking "Gee, what can I do to make lives better for my great great great grand children?". I wonder if they'll say the same thing about us in 100. Sure, we face long term problems like climate change, just as they faced issues like shaping the foundations of our countries to make them strong in the future... but in general they lived their lives for them and now, we live ours for us. My loyalties lie with people now. My life isn't about how I can best appease my relativies from beyond the grave, nor is it about bettering the lives of my future great great grand children.

I know you're comfortable with it, but I am not comfortable with having an unempathetic culture. If that's our culture then I don't want to be a part of it. If we place more value on being strong and similar and sharing in 'traditional values' than helping our neighbours and lending a hand up to the vunerable people of the world, then I don't know what kind of culture that is or why anyone would want to fight for it. To me, a good culture is not only one that places value on empathy, but also one that is diverse. I don't know why multiculturalism and pluralism are dirty words, in fact, I think it'll make us stronger in the long run. I think we should be more focused on working towards a better world than fighting about arbitrary madmade boundries which supposedly dictate who is entitled to what. Of course this is only my opinion and not any more valid than anyone elses.

Originally Posted by Guile

But on the other hand, both those groups have made major contributions to the nation, while the current immigrants to England are not.

Says who?