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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 01:06 AM

Hi, here is the link to my Change.org petition to the U.S. government asking them to leave 'God' out of our government http://www.change.org/petitions/leav...-us-government. Please sign, this is something that I feel very strongly about and even though there's not really a chance anything will change I really hope that I can start something.

BTW. The name is fake. NO my name isn't really Naomi Riecher.


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I may not be brave or strong or smart
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I know
Love will find a way
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If you are there beside me

   
  (#2 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 01:16 AM

What exactly do you mean by leaving "God out of our government"?
   
  (#3 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 01:38 AM

You do realize there's already a separation of church and state, right?


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  (#4 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 01:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by believe.in.hope View Post
What exactly do you mean by leaving "God out of our government"?
Well, here's wat I said in the petition...

Quote:
The first pilgrims to the U.S. were Christians, and so they based their government off of their beliefs even though they preached frreedom of religion. Ask the government now to correct this mistake, and leave 'God' and the Christian influence out of our money and our Pledge of Allegiance.

Many people suffer persecution from different denominations of Christians, such as LGBT's and other religions. Let people have faith in their government as a NEUTRAL government, not one that they may need to fear because of the strong Christian influence.

The U.S Constitution (Fourteenth Amendment) states that:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

The government is supporting the bullying of LBGT persons as well as people who practice different religions by continuing to keep the Christian influence in the governent.

Please sign, and let the government know that you do NOT agree with the Christian influence that persists in the U.S. government, and let them know that your are eager to see changes.


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  (#5 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 01:54 AM



Founded as a Christian country, shall stay a Christian country, Get your Allah out of the Middle Eastern Governments, your Buddhists out of Tibet, and your Catholics out of Italy, and I'll get my Protestants out of the United States.

Considering that most Americans are Christian (76%* ), you're trying to force the ideals of a minority, on the majority.

*http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/A...eport_2008.pdf


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Re: Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 02:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile View Post


Founded as a Christian country, shall stay a Christian country, Get your Allah out of the Middle Eastern Governments, your Buddhists out of Tibet, and your Catholics out of Italy, and I'll get my Protestants out of the United States.

Considering that most Americans are Christian (76%* ), you're trying to force the ideals of a minority, on the majority.

*http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/A...eport_2008.pdf
Wow. Genius. I'm totally asking all the Christians to leave the U.S. Whatever. That's SO not the point of this petition. Keep your rude and ignorant comments to yourself. I'm not trying to make all the Christians leave, I'm just saying that if the U.S. government is going to practice seperation of church and state, than the 'In God We Trust' needs to come off of our currency and the 'One nation under God' needs to come out of our Pledge of Allegiance.

Please read the facts before trying to piss me off.


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Re: Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 02:22 AM

It does interest me why God appears so often in American things, like the pledge of allegiance. While it interests me, it doesn't really bother me. And being a Scottish citizen, there's really no point in signing the petition.




   
  (#8 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 02:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxMallyPrydexX View Post
The government is supporting the bullying of LBGT persons as well as people who practice different religions by continuing to keep the Christian influence in the governent.
[Citation Needed]

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxMallyPrydexX View Post
Wow. Genius. I'm totally asking all the Christians to leave the U.S. Whatever. That's SO not the point of this petition. Keep your rude and ignorant comments to yourself. I'm not trying to make all the Christians leave, I'm just saying that if the U.S. government is going to practice seperation of church and state, than the 'In God We Trust' needs to come off of our currency and the 'One nation under God' needs to come out of our Pledge of Allegiance.

Please read the facts before trying to piss me off.
The First Amendment reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ....", it does not say that the government cannot include religious references. It does not make a law respecting the establishment of religion, nor does it prohibit the exercise of. As such, there are no legal grounds to remove it from the constitution. Not to mention in Newdow v. Carey (Nos. 05-17257, 05-17344, and 06-15093), at a two to one ratio in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, the inclusion of God and Religious phrases in the pledge and such did not constitute creation of a law respecting the establishment of religion.

Not to mention, I said Middle Eastern Governments, I do not want to displace the members of any religion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by XxMallyPrydexX View Post
Many people suffer persecution from different denominations of Christians, such as LGBT's and other religions.
And Christians suffer persecution/disdain from different religions, governments, and such. It doesn't take the prerequisite of Christianity to hate gays, nor does being Christian mean you will hate them. Not to mention, yet again, gays are a minority, while Christians are the majority, and democratically speaking, to enforce punishment against the majority for the sake of the minority is not only morally wrong, it goes against the ideals of a democratic society.


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Last edited by Guile; November 29th 2011 at 02:38 AM.
   
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Re: Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 02:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile View Post

[Citation Needed]

It's pure common sense... Christians are known to be homophobics and cruelly bully LGBT persons as well as try to cram their religion down peoples' throats who may believe in something else. If the government shows their support for Christianity, they are also approving this.


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  (#10 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 02:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile View Post
Not to mention, yet again, gays are a minority, while Christians are the majority, and democratically speaking, to enforce punishment against the majority for the sake of the minority is not only morally wrong, it goes against the ideals of a democratic society.
I never said we needed to PUNISH Christians. I thought that was clear... I don't want anyone to be punished for what they believe in. I think that the government should just try to stick more to the idea of 'seperation of church and state'.


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  (#11 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 02:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxMallyPrydexX View Post
It's pure common sense... Christians are known to be homophobics and cruelly bully LGBT persons as well as try to cram their religion down peoples' throats who may believe in something else. If the government shows their support for Christianity, they are also approving this.
Just because you support something, does not mean you approve of all actions taken by members of that group. If you support the military, and one soldier murders some children under orders, does that mean you support the murder of children? Plus, you have yet to address the fact that this idea was already taken to court and your motion was denied, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals struck it down two to one.


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~ - November 29th 2011, 03:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxMallyPrydexX View Post
It's pure common sense... Christians are known to be homophobics and cruelly bully LGBT persons as well as try to cram their religion down peoples' throats who may believe in something else. If the government shows their support for Christianity, they are also approving this.
You're going to hell you gay worshipper! You should revert to Jesus before it's too late! Gays are creations of the Devil! Maybe you pray to him every night with your gay friends!

Give me a goddamn break. I was actually considering signing it, why not be respectful to other religions and not make them say thingis they might not believe in? But this ruined it. I'm not sure if you're trolling, or just being idiotic at this very moment. It's like me posting a link about a terroist bombing out a plane in the name of Allah, and saying all Muslims are terroists, or all people in the south are Confederate KKK members, or that all athesists are as arrogant as you seem to be right now.

Also consider: Maybe the government does support anti-gay sentiments like roughly 5% of the Christian (based on the Christian I know), so what? If that's what they believe it's a free country, just as you can support gays if you want, because it is free. It's a double-edged sword.

I was very offended at this post, because you're taking a barely representable number of people, and making them speak for the majority.

This was the stupidest post I will ever come across. Please think before posting in the near future.


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Re: Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 04:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile View Post

Founded as a Christian country
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

-Thomas Jefferson, Treaty of Tripoli

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile View Post
shall stay a Christian country,
""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."-1st Amendment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile View Post
Considering that most Americans are Christian (76%* ), you're trying to force the ideals of a minority, on the majority.
Except that not all of that 76% are the same denomination. Or believe the same thing.

Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxMallyPrydexX View Post
It's pure common sense... Christians are known to be homophobics and cruelly bully LGBT persons as well as try to cram their religion down peoples' throats who may believe in something else. If the government shows their support for Christianity, they are also approving this.
Oh yeah, be rude as fuck and use strawman arguments and ad hominems, that's a great way to garner support for your cause. The Brady Campaign would love you.


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Re: Change.org Petition - November 29th 2011, 07:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxMallyPrydexX View Post
It's pure common sense... Christians are known to be homophobics and cruelly bully LGBT persons as well as try to cram their religion down peoples' throats who may believe in something else. If the government shows their support for Christianity, they are also approving this.
If the government does not unanimously show support, then they are not approving it. Where is your evidence that they are approving this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxMallyPrydexX View Post
Wow. Genius. I'm totally asking all the Christians to leave the U.S. Whatever. That's SO not the point of this petition. Keep your rude and ignorant comments to yourself. I'm not trying to make all the Christians leave, I'm just saying that if the U.S. government is going to practice seperation of church and state, than the 'In God We Trust' needs to come off of our currency and the 'One nation under God' needs to come out of our Pledge of Allegiance.

Please read the facts before trying to piss me off.
it's hilarious when you tell someone not to be rude yet you see nothing wrong in acting in the same manner. You're not going to win anyone over by acting in a rude and immature way, and just because Guile said a snide comment does not mean you have to. But I'll comment on your pledge.

Your entire pledge is flawed from the start because the USA was not founded on Christianity. The statements on the currency and the pledge of allegiance refer to "god" but do not define which god. If you want your pledge to have any supporting ground, you would focus on the general wording rather than pin-pointing a particular religion because that can be viewed as discriminatory and bullying, which is exactly what you accuse the government of doing. In other words, your pledge is weak and hypocritical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxMallyPrydexX View Post
I never said we needed to PUNISH Christians. I thought that was clear... I don't want anyone to be punished for what they believe in. I think that the government should just try to stick more to the idea of 'seperation of church and state'.
I'm puzzled as to why you think there is insufficient separation of church and state. God is mentioned, as I wrote above, however, it doesn't define which god, so it even allows individuals to view themselves as god by being in control of their life decisions. You have yet to show the country not founded on Christianity chose to infer Christianity on their currency and pledge of allegiance. Without that evidence, your pledge is weak and your supporting arguments are flimsy. Furthermore, you'd need evidence to show me why you think there is insufficient separation of church and state.


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Re: Change.org Petition - November 30th 2011, 06:39 AM

I do generally think that if there's to be a more tolerant society of everyone, all cultures, all religions and nationalities, then personal beliefs should be kept out of politics as much as possible. Inherently... that will never happen, because people are people and everything we do is based off our beliefs. Most people enter politics with motivation strongly driven by personal beliefs of some sort, or nowadays more commonly, just to siphon money off expense claims actually. To be honest, I prefer personal beliefs interfering.


And actually, on the homophobic issue... I used to go to Poland for holidays quite frequently in the past, culturally a very Christian country. I can comfortably say that maybe 40% of people in the younger generation have an aversion towards gays, and probably 75% in the older generation (which happens to be more religious than the younger). In the UK, you hear the odd joke cracked, or someone says something like "that TV show is gay", but over there they outright alienate them. I'm inclined to think Christianity is correlated with homophobia. Same way that Islam is correlated with suicide bombings. It doesn't necessarily mean those suicide bombers are a majority, but no matter how small the number, it's too many.

Unfortunately, nothing can be done about it, unless you insert a microchip inside people's brains that somehow "de-programmes" them from believing in religion.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Change.org Petition - November 30th 2011, 12:56 PM

Can I just say, I was brought up in a Catholic household, and am now Christian, and NO ONE in my church is a homophob. At all. In fact we have gay couples attend, teenages coming out and we love to be there to suppor them. Although, I do agree some people can believe that it is wrong, alot of church's and what not have come ALONGGGG way and arent so stuck in the black and white. I took a while to think of posting on this thread, because I did not want to offend anyone at all. Thats not my intention one bit. I just thought I'd pop it in there, that not everyone see's LBGT's as 'horrible' people or whatever. I don't live in America, so I don't really understand where your coming from, but I just wanted to say this.
Hope everyone remembers to keep this a friendly and kind debate, and no one is upset by what is said. It is a debate forum Chin up xxxx


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Re: Change.org Petition - December 1st 2011, 10:48 AM

You Christians have a bloated sense of superiority.This is why you take the idea of keeping the Govt. neutral on religion as a threat to yours - your religion has been treated specially for so long that the idea that it will no longer be so is perceived as a threat against your religion.

Sheer ignorance.

People like you are the reason why America is falling behind.
Lack of education, too much religion, general lack of understanding/interest in science and the real world and an appreciation of what we know to be real and how incredible it all is.


Just because Non-Christian Americans don't want their lives dictated by Christian values/laws, it doesn't mean they're attacking your religion.
It means they want your religion out of their lives and for you to keep it private. Religion is a personal, private thing.
   
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Re: Change.org Petition - December 1st 2011, 03:17 PM

Cosmo: I can't even tell if you're joking or not. I didn't see anyone completely ripping apart the pettition (Just the silly comments by the OP) other than Guile a little bit, stating that it's not just America with the issue.

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Re: Change.org Petition - December 1st 2011, 04:47 PM

Cosmo,

I think you're taking a very narrow view here. I'm not arguing for creating some giant theocratic regime, a-la The Handmaiden's Tale. I simply don't want to remove "In God we trust" from Federal Reserve notes. Christians are not some giant, anti-science faction. My entire family is Christian. My mother has a PhD, my dad an associate's degree, my aunt and uncle are rocket scientists, and designed ICBMs and the Patriot Missile System. My grandfather has a Masters in Chemical Engineering, and in Accounting. My great-uncle is a partner in a law firm. My great grandfather was one of the first Scientists with NASA, his wife is still alive at 108 years old. Don't say that Christians are some uneducated group of idiots.


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Re: Change.org Petition - December 3rd 2011, 02:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxMallyPrydexX View Post
It's pure common sense... Christians are known to be homophobics and cruelly bully LGBT persons as well as try to cram their religion down peoples' throats who may believe in something else. If the government shows their support for Christianity, they are also approving this.
I only have one thing to say about this debate.

I am Christian. And guess what? I'm also a huge gay right's activist, with many many gay/lesbian friends whom I do not bully in any way. I fully support the rights of gays to be together, and find the discrimination of gays to be nothing more than sheer idiocy.

My boyfriend is also Christian. Guess what? He's as much for gay rights as I am, and is friends with many of my gay friends. Neither of us cram our religion down people's throats. Anyone can believe in whatever they choose to believe in. Yes, there are many Christians out there who hate gays and try to force their religion on others, but don't go saying all of us are like that, because I sure as hell am not. Why don't you think about what you post next time. Maybe then you won't be bashed so much by every person on this thread.


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  (#21 (permalink)) Old
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Re: Change.org Petition - December 3rd 2011, 04:44 AM

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Originally Posted by XxMallyPrydexX View Post
It's pure common sense... Christians are known to be homophobics and cruelly bully LGBT persons as well as try to cram their religion down peoples' throats who may believe in something else. If the government shows their support for Christianity, they are also approving this.
Wow. Are you serious?

Bullying and discrimination against LGBT people is wrong, but it is perfectly acceptable for you to judge and discriminate against Christians? I think you're hypocritical and just as bad as any Christians who discriminate against homosexuals.

How can you possibly say that Christians are known for being homophobes and bullies and in the same sentence critisize them for being judgmental and discriminatory?

I just don't understand how anyone could type that sentence with a straight face.


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Re: Change.org Petition - December 3rd 2011, 02:56 PM

Unlike people who are only here for a good argument, I understand where you're coming from. I love change.org, and signed your petition.

If we're nondenominational, why do we still have God on our currency and pledge of allegiance?
If there is separation between church and state, why are almost all the debates against gay marriage religious based?
Same goes for pro-life vs pro-choice
If we're not a Christian country, why have all our presidents been Christian, and sworn in on the bible?
If our government is open to other religions, why are my friends constantly stopped at airports and by police for simply carrying the Satanic Bible around on long air trips?

You guys are being too hard on the OP. No she's not asking all Christians to leave, nor is she bashing them. All she is asking for is a little more equality, and I agree.


But go ahead, attack me too. I'll ignore all of it, because the lot of you are not only twisting the OPs words and points around, but some of you are also being incredibly immature and rude about it.



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Re: Change.org Petition - December 3rd 2011, 04:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Mr. Gir View Post

You guys are being too hard on the OP. No she's not asking all Christians to leave, nor is she bashing them. All she is asking for is a little more equality, and I agree.


But go ahead, attack me too. I'll ignore all of it, because the lot of you are not only twisting the OPs words and points around, but some of you are also being incredibly immature and rude about it.
I suppose you're going to completely ignore the whole "Christians are all homophobes" thing that she stated, right?


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Re: Change.org Petition - December 3rd 2011, 05:54 PM

Saying that Christians are homophobes implies that all Christians are homophobes, which isn't right. But there's definitely a correlation. I'm under impression that other mainstream religions have a correlation too, even stronger probably, but I know much less about other religions. Most of the mainstream religions are founded on very old cultural traditions and beliefs, which rejected and condemned homosexuality in the past even if they don't any more. And the kids have it rubbed into them at a young age in some backward community/corner of society and they eat it all up.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Change.org Petition - December 3rd 2011, 11:55 PM

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Originally Posted by BDF View Post
Saying that Christians are homophobes implies that all Christians are homophobes, which isn't right. But there's definitely a correlation. I'm under impression that other mainstream religions have a correlation too, even stronger probably, but I know much less about other religions. Most of the mainstream religions are founded on very old cultural traditions and beliefs, which rejected and condemned homosexuality in the past even if they don't any more. And the kids have it rubbed into them at a young age in some backward community/corner of society and they eat it all up.
Christianity may correlate at some points, but I'm a homophobe because of political reasons, I could be a Buddhist, and I'd still be a homophobe.


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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 12:19 AM

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Cosmo,

I think you're taking a very narrow view here. I'm not arguing for creating some giant theocratic regime, a-la The Handmaiden's Tale. I simply don't want to remove "In God we trust" from Federal Reserve notes. Christians are not some giant, anti-science faction. My entire family is Christian. My mother has a PhD, my dad an associate's degree, my aunt and uncle are rocket scientists, and designed ICBMs and the Patriot Missile System. My grandfather has a Masters in Chemical Engineering, and in Accounting. My great-uncle is a partner in a law firm. My great grandfather was one of the first Scientists with NASA, his wife is still alive at 108 years old. Don't say that Christians are some uneducated group of idiots.
This is so FREAKING impressive Guile!!! My best friend is gay and I would never let someone gay bash him, gay bashing is wrong in every way, shape and form. However, I'm christian and what you said about christians was hypocritical, you are getting people to sign this to make sure people are not being hurt or judged and you are doing the very thing you are against. It just isnt right


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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 01:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Gir View Post
Unlike people who are only here for a good argument, I understand where you're coming from. I love change.org, and signed your petition.

If we're nondenominational, why do we still have God on our currency and pledge of allegiance?
If there is separation between church and state, why are almost all the debates against gay marriage religious based?
Same goes for pro-life vs pro-choice
If we're not a Christian country, why have all our presidents been Christian, and sworn in on the bible?
If our government is open to other religions, why are my friends constantly stopped at airports and by police for simply carrying the Satanic Bible around on long air trips?

You guys are being too hard on the OP. No she's not asking all Christians to leave, nor is she bashing them. All she is asking for is a little more equality, and I agree.


But go ahead, attack me too. I'll ignore all of it, because the lot of you are not only twisting the OPs words and points around, but some of you are also being incredibly immature and rude about it.
I agree with most of your points however I'd never sign a petition started by someone who is so bigoted towards any group, including Christians. You can call me immature but I'm not the one making sweeping generalisations about one group while trying to prove they make sweeping generalisations about another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guile View Post
Christianity may correlate at some points, but I'm a homophobe because of political reasons, I could be a Buddhist, and I'd still be a homophobe.
I don't understand how anyone can be against homosexuality for political reasons. Could you elaborate on that?


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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 01:06 AM

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Originally Posted by Marguerite View Post
I agree with most of your points however I'd never sign a petition started by someone who is so bigoted towards any group, including Christians. You can call me immature but I'm not the one making sweeping generalisations about one group while trying to prove they make sweeping generalisations about another.
You would ignore a good cause simply because you don't like the person heading a simple petition?

Guys, so the OP made a generalization. You can't say that never happens. But sure, lets go ahead and ignore real issues because one person made a mistake.



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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 02:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Koharuchan View Post
My boyfriend is also Christian. Guess what? He's as much for gay rights as I am, and is friends with many of my gay friends. Neither of us cram our religion down people's throats. Anyone can believe in whatever they choose to believe in. Yes, there are many Christians out there who hate gays and try to force their religion on others, but don't go saying all of us are like that, because I sure as hell am not. Why don't you think about what you post next time. Maybe then you won't be bashed so much by every person on this thread.
Considering her and Cosmo's posts are the highest rated, it seems most people do agree with them.

If you get offended by simply hearing the word 'God' in our pledge, or seeing it on our money, than you're an asshole who has deeper problems. Yep, I don't think someone's religion should affect their political views, but I don't think someones hate for religion should affect it either.

There are bigger things the government needs to be working on, rather than making sure a select, small minority aren't 'offended'.

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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 02:45 AM

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Originally Posted by Mr. Gir View Post

You would ignore a good cause simply because you don't like the person heading a simple petition?

Guys, so the OP made a generalization. You can't say that never happens. But sure, lets go ahead and ignore real issues because one person made a mistake.
Yes. Absolutely. It's not that I don't like the person. It's the fact that the cause is based on (partly) acceptance of diversity and of all religions and cultures (going on the fact that the incestuous relationship between church and state erodes that). On that basis, I cannot morally support the petition considering the OP doesn't.

PETA is a good example considering it's been a hot topic on the forum for a while. PETA does a lot of good things too but I could never support a PETA petition because I don't support everything else PETA stands for.

I support the cause but I have more faith in organisations like the ACLU to keep religion out of politics than an online petition made by a 15 year old (no offense intended OP).


To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget

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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 05:39 AM

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Originally Posted by Marguerite View Post
Yes. Absolutely. It's not that I don't like the person. It's the fact that the cause is based on (partly) acceptance of diversity and of all religions and cultures (going on the fact that the incestuous relationship between church and state erodes that). On that basis, I cannot morally support the petition considering the OP doesn't.

PETA is a good example considering it's been a hot topic on the forum for a while. PETA does a lot of good things too but I could never support a PETA petition because I don't support everything else PETA stands for.

I support the cause but I have more faith in organisations like the ACLU to keep religion out of politics than an online petition made by a 15 year old (no offense intended OP).
So basically, in short terms, in order to actively support a cause they have to agree with you on every issue possibly related, or at all? Good luck with that.



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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 05:40 AM

I'm a christian. I am not a homophobic person. I believe everyone has their one true love be it male/male female/female or male/female. It doesn't matter to me what their preference is and I believe that God loves them no matter what their choice is. However, I agree but disagree with your statement. I do believe there should be a separation of church and state.



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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 09:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Marguerite View Post
I don't understand how anyone can be against homosexuality for political reasons. Could you elaborate on that?
It's simple. Actually it's not. I wanted to come up with a bad joke but can't. I don't understand how politics and homosexuality directly link together even once I take the logic out of it.

The only thing that differs them from the rest of people is they can't naturally reproduce, but there are plenty of kids that need adopting so I see no problem.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 09:44 AM

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Originally Posted by Mr. Gir View Post

So basically, in short terms, in order to actively support a cause they have to agree with you on every issue possibly related, or at all? Good luck with that.
Yes. I don't compromise when it comes to morality. I feel sorry for you if you do.


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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 11:04 AM

I think that, without religion, we would not have homophobia.
   
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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 12:25 PM

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I think that, without religion, we would not have homophobia.
I couldn't disagree more. I've known many non religious people who have hated homosexuals just because they think it's 'wrong' or 'disgusting' and not for any religious reasoning.

More over in my experience religious homophobes tend to favour faux politeness in their discrimination (e.g, "I don't hate homosexuals but..."). The people who really go after gay people (as in being physical and verbally abusive) tend just to be dickheads who don't like people being different and don't have any religious ties. But as I said that's just my experience and I'm sure it's different in yours and in other people's experiences. Also before anyone starts going back in history or looking at the third world or something I'm talking about right now in western society.

I do however think that religion keeps institutional homophobia alive (i.e by attempting to stop the likes of gay marriage and adoption).


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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 03:34 PM

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I think that, without religion, we would not have homophobia.
Come on dude, I know you're not that dumb. People trying to play the "religion is the root of all evil" card really bugs me.

Maybe it's because I live in a pretty liberal city, but it honestly astounds me how much people just despise religion. I wonder when were going to get to a Soviet Union level of state atheism, because these days, more and more people seem to be anti-religious and spreading their beliefs instead.
   
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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 04:28 PM

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Come on dude, I know you're not that dumb. People trying to play the "religion is the root of all evil" card really bugs me.

Maybe it's because I live in a pretty liberal city, but it honestly astounds me how much people just despise religion. I wonder when were going to get to a Soviet Union level of state atheism, because these days, more and more people seem to be anti-religious and spreading their beliefs instead.
There's no non-religious basis for homophobia. Anyone who claims to be, for example, atheist but hates homosexuals, maybe as Margeurite said "Because it's gross", is still homophobic for religious reasons, and it's because of the way that religion's views on Homophobia has influenced our opinions and prejudices of homosexuality. If we grew up in a society in which religion had no views on homosexuality, then I find it hard to believe that, other than very minority cases which you'll always get because you'll always have those who don't like people who live differently to them, we'd see homophobia on such a large scale. I'm not claiming that religion is the source of all evil, just that it's the source of this evil.
   
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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 04:41 PM

I disagree completely with that, purely because of my own experiences. Every Christian I've met has indeed disagreed with homophobia, but had gay friends. They have never appeared malicious against them. Where as the assaults and the abuse of gay people often come from intolerant hooligans who probably don't know what the word "religion" means.




   
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Re: Change.org Petition - December 4th 2011, 05:02 PM

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I disagree completely with that, purely because of my own experiences. Every Christian I've met has indeed disagreed with homophobia, but had gay friends. They have never appeared malicious against them. Where as the assaults and the abuse of gay people often come from intolerant hooligans who probably don't know what the word "religion" means.
I'm going to direct you to my post above and ask you to read it thoroughly.

While religion is no longer the basis of all homophobia, it planted the seeds and watered them.
   
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