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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 10:03 PM

This thread has been labeled as triggering, particularly on the subject of suicide, by the original poster or by a Moderator. The contents of this thread therefore might not be suitable for certain sensitive users. Please take this into consideration before continuing to read.

The thread about the 8th grader got me thinking Should police be punished if they shoot and kill someone they later found out WANTED To be shot? This would make it basically assisted suicide.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 10:19 PM

Well, chances are NOBODY wants to be voluntarily shot. I don't think that boy realized what kind of danger he was in by not putting down the pellet gun. There was no way he could have known he would be shot that day (unless that was seriously his intentions).

However, in other instances as well, no. The cops are doing their jobs to protect themselves and those around them. That boy could have seriously injured those other students, and the cops did what the feel is right, and what I feel is right is well.











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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 10:24 PM

The point of suicide by cop is they are by killing them giving them what they WANT. It is the same as how in (most) states euthaninia is illegal even if the person is ill and consents and/or asks for it.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 10:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST View Post
The point of suicide by cop is they are by killing them giving them what they WANT. It is the same as how in (most) states euthaninia is illegal even if the person is ill and consents and/or asks for it.
I understand the point of suicide by police officer, thanks! My point is: What person goes "I think I'll call 911, get the cops over here, entice them, have them shoot me so I can die today?" NOBODY. Nobody asks for that. There are plenty of other ways to commit suicide, and I'm fairly sure people who have committed suicide CHOSE those other options.

If someone has any instances where someone deliberately enticed a cop to shoot them, please post them!











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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 10:44 PM

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I understand the point of suicide by police officer, thanks! My point is: What person goes "I think I'll call 911, get the cops over here, entice them, have them shoot me so I can die today?" NOBODY. Nobody asks for that. There are plenty of other ways to commit suicide, and I'm fairly sure people who have committed suicide CHOSE those other options.

If someone has any instances where someone deliberately enticed a cop to shoot them, please post them!
usually what they will do is if they have committed a crime I KNOW people do not just call law enforcement to shoot them.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 10:47 PM

The police officer should not be punished if they used their own judgement, in the instance with the kid with the pellet gun was killed, it was right because he did what he thought was safest.

If an officer shoots an unarmed man at random, only to find he planned on comitting suicide later in the day, of course punishment should be carried out.

Unless it was an intentional act to kill someone uncessesarily with no one at risk, police should be comended for keeping us safe, not persecuted.

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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 10:55 PM

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If someone has any instances where someone deliberately enticed a cop to shoot them, please post them!
It's definitely not unheard of. Just one instance here . I'm not sure how you can think it doesn't happen, as sad as it is, Sometimes people want to die and will do anything to achieve that goal.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 10:59 PM

Whether or not the police officer should be punished for shooting and killing someone depends solely on whether he had reasonable grounds for doing so, namely that the offender posed a real and serious danger to the public and no alternative was available. It cannot, and should not, be subject to the mindset of the offender insofar as whether they wanted to be shot, because asking a police officer in a potentially lethal situation to try and second-guess the mindset of their adversary is just completely unrealistic. It also sets a very dangerous precedent in that it permits punishing them for something they had no means of knowing about, much less consenting to, and so cannot reasonably be held responsible for, and once you start down that kind of path you throw due process pretty much out of the window. So for me this is a non-starter.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 11:12 PM

Yes, they should be punished. It's not the job of the police to kill citizens. Besides, it'd be far too easy for a policeman to stand up in court and say "I killed him because he said it was what he wanted." There are good reasons why, in a lot of places, police are not allowed to use their guns unless they have no other option. No matter the circumstances, it's still murder and should be punished as such.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 11:27 PM

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Yes, they should be punished. It's not the job of the police to kill citizens. Besides, it'd be far too easy for a policeman to stand up in court and say "I killed him because he said it was what he wanted." There are good reasons why, in a lot of places, police are not allowed to use their guns unless they have no other option. No matter the circumstances, it's still murder and should be punished as such.
Well if it was what the person wanted he or she would could still be charged if they admitted it it would just be for assisted suicide instead of murder.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 11:32 PM

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Yes, they should be punished. It's not the job of the police to kill citizens. Besides, it'd be far too easy for a policeman to stand up in court and say "I killed him because he said it was what he wanted." There are good reasons why, in a lot of places, police are not allowed to use their guns unless they have no other option. No matter the circumstances, it's still murder and should be punished as such.
Are you really serious with this? This kid, for reasons we'll probably never really know, was confronted by armed LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS. One of these officer's MAIN jobs is to PROTECT citizens...especially 11-15 year old citizens. This was in a school with kids present. The poster who said its not the job of the police to try to determine the mindset of an armed person is absolutely right.

My pops taught me early on to never ever point anything that looked like a gun at a cop or anyone else if a cop was around. He told me that if I did .. Expect my ass to be shot.

IMO the only way these cops should be punished is if they're lying about the way the shooting went down.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 11:35 PM

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Are you really serious with this? This kid, for reasons we'll probably never really know, was confronted by armed LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS. One of these officer's MAIN jobs is to PROTECT citizens...especially 11-15 year old citizens. This was in a school with kids present. The poster who said its not the job of the police to try to determine the mindset of an armed person is absolutely right.

My pops taught me early on to never ever point anything that looked like a gun at a cop or anyone else if a cop was around. He told me that if I did .. Expect my ass to be shot.

IMO the only way these cops should be punished is if they're lying about the way the shooting went down.
Usually when they are killed though (officers) It is either because the person pull a gun on them say at a traffic stop or the person had a more powerful gun like more rounds or something.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 11:52 PM

I'm sorry but I'm not understanding . Gymnophoria said the cops should be punished, that's its not their job to "kill citizens", restrictions on cops in some places, and "no matter the circumstances, it's still murder and should be punished." My question is what the heck are you talking about.

Now allornothing is talking about how cops are "usually" killed. You're in Georgia so you're not that far from D.C. Next time you're there visit the National Law Endorcement Officer's Memorial. My dad took me recently. You'd learn that officers are killed in the line of duty all kinds of ways.

Sorry if I sound upset, but I got cops in my family and just strongly believe that you guys are way mis-informed on this subject.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 11:53 PM

I'll come back to this later when I have more time.

However - suicide by cop is not rare. Seen it, it's a shitty situation all round.

Yes, it is effectively assisted suicide.

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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 11:54 PM

If a police officer shoots to kill someone who is being a public threat, it shouldn't matter if it was, in the long run, assisted dying. They're not psychologists, they're here to protect (that's a whole other debate, those of you rolling your eyes at that ), not to hesitate for a single moment and think "wait, maybe he wants this", giving the person ample time to potentially commit a crime. Seems silly to me, a police officer really has no way of knowing; they have to act with what information they've got.




   
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Re: suicide by cop - January 6th 2012, 11:59 PM

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@allornothingnforchrist... I'm sorry but I'm not understanding you. You said the cops should be punished, that's its not their job to "kill citizens", restrictions on cops in some places, and "no matter the circumstances, it's still murder and should be punished." My question is what the heck are you talking about.

Now you're talking about how cops are "usually" killed. You're in Georgia so you're not that far from D.C. Next time you're there visit the National Law Endorcement Officer's Memorial. My dad took me recently. You'd learn that officers are killed in the line of duty all kinds of ways.

Sorry if I sound upset, but I got cops in my family and just strongly believe that you are way mis-informed on this subject.
I know more cops are killed by cars than bullets. What I meant was that usually cops are NOT killed by standing there and waiting to be shot. When they are killed by bullets it is usually when not because they stood there and LET themselves be.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 7th 2012, 12:00 AM

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I understand the point of suicide by police officer, thanks! My point is: What person goes "I think I'll call 911, get the cops over here, entice them, have them shoot me so I can die today?" NOBODY. Nobody asks for that. There are plenty of other ways to commit suicide, and I'm fairly sure people who have committed suicide CHOSE those other options.

If someone has any instances where someone deliberately enticed a cop to shoot them, please post them!
You are right, in a way. If someone was depressed, it seems highly unlikely that they would choose to commit suicide by cop. That's not really the type of circumstance that suicide by cop occurs in. If someone was mentally unstable and had just committed a crime though, then suicide by cop wouldn't be unreasonable. You hear stories all the time of people who have committed murder and then commit suicide. If the cops got there before they could commit suicide, then they definitely might try suicide by cop instead.

OP, I don't understand how you can possibly think suicide by cop is the same thing as assisted suicide (from the cop's perspective). If the cop didn't know that the person wanted to commit suicide, then how can you charge them for assisting a suicide they didn't know was occuring?



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Re: suicide by cop - January 7th 2012, 12:03 AM

I do have a link, but I saw a story on TV one time years ago where a woman actually tried to commit suicide by cop with a CELL PHONE, but the cops figured it out. This tells me that clearly sometimes they act too quickly, if they had the time to see it was a cell phone before they shot.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 7th 2012, 12:09 AM

Clearly they don't act too quickly if they figured it out.




   
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Re: suicide by cop - January 7th 2012, 12:11 AM

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I know more cops are killed by cars than bullets. What I meant was that usually cops are NOT killed by standing there and waiting to be shot. When they are killed by bullets it is usually when not because they stood there and LET themselves be.

I got it. Sorry bout flaming out. The whole "punish the cops" line in the other post got to me. And you're absolutely right. My dad and uncle said they were trained over and over to assess the threat and make that split second decision to use lethal force or not. When in doubt, drop him before he drops you. They have a saying that something like, "Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.". I think that's how it goes.

Again, sorry if I misunderatood.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 7th 2012, 12:12 AM

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Clearly they don't act too quickly if they figured it out.
If they looked and saw it was a cell phone she had pointed at herself (and would not give up) then they clearly had time to not just shoot.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 7th 2012, 12:17 AM

Quote:
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I do have a link, but I saw a story on TV one time years ago where a woman actually tried to commit suicide by cop with a CELL PHONE, but the cops figured it out. This tells me that clearly sometimes they act too quickly, if they had the time to see it was a cell phone before they shot.
So what you're saying is, we should have more dead cops who were too cautious in determining whether or not the obscured object being pointed at them is a gun or not?

The whole idea of suicide by cop, is that you make yourself indistinguishable from an actual threat to the police, usually by pretending to point a gun at them, so that they will shoot and kill you.

The idea is tragic, but to sit there and blame the police, AFTER THE EVENT HAS HAPPENED, that they should have known better, is a complete hindsight fallacy, and to pretend that it's a reasonable thought it incredibly silly.

It's not even close to assisted suicide. That's like saying train operators should be held responsible for assisted suicide when someone jumps in front of a train.

If you're looking for someone to blame, blame the idiot who decided they needed a cop to end their life for them, not the cop for defending himself from an apparent deadly threat.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 7th 2012, 12:21 AM

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So what you're saying is, we should have more dead cops who were too cautious in determining whether or not the obscured object being pointed at them is a gun or not?

The whole idea of suicide by cop, is that you make yourself indistinguishable from an actual threat to the police, usually by pretending to point a gun at them, so that they will shoot and kill you.

The idea is tragic, but to sit there and blame the police, AFTER THE EVENT HAS HAPPENED, that they should have known better, is a complete hindsight fallacy, and to pretend that it's a reasonable thought it incredibly silly.

It's not even close to assisted suicide. That's like saying train operators should be held responsible for assisted suicide when someone jumps in front of a train.

If you're looking for someone to blame, blame the idiot who decided they needed a cop to end their life for them, not the cop for defending himself from an apparent deadly threat.
How can it be apparent when it is not even deadly? Also to Shawn I understand and should have worded it better.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 7th 2012, 12:33 AM

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How can it be apparent when it is not even deadly?
The cell phone is one thing. She got lucky. With others it's not always apparent or so easy to figure out.

Using facts you've obtained after an incident, that were not apparent at the time, when it was a possible "life and death" situation, to judge said incident is foolish any way you try to put it.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 7th 2012, 12:49 AM

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The cell phone is one thing. She got lucky. With others it's not always apparent or so easy to figure out.

Using facts you've obtained after an incident, that were not apparent at the time, when it was a possible "life and death" situation, to judge said incident is foolish any way you try to put it.
but when they kill someone who IS unarmed they take a LOT of backlash for it, as that same thread proves.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 7th 2012, 12:55 AM

Emily, didn't you write that the woman had the cell phone pointed at herself but wouldn't give it up.

I'm not positive, but I think they hesitated because the cops (most cops) are trained to shoot someone who appears to be a danger to the officers or other citizens, not to themselves. Don't think there are too many (good) shootings where the subject pointed, even a real gun, at themselves, refused to stop pointing it at themselves and were shot.

Point the gun, or apparent gun, at ANYONE else, or make a move that isn't clearly dropping the weapon, and they get dropped.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 7th 2012, 01:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn K. View Post
Emily, didn't you write that the woman had the cell phone pointed at herself but wouldn't give it up.

I'm not positive, but I think they hesitated because the cops (most cops) are trained to shoot someone who appears to be a danger to the officers or other citizens, not to themselves. Don't think there are too many (good) shootings where the subject pointed, even a real gun, at themselves, refused to stop pointing it at themselves and were shot.

Point the gun, or apparent gun, at ANYONE else, or make a move that isn't clearly dropping the weapon, and they get dropped.
See this has been years ago that I saw this and the woman had driven home and then she had the phone and they thought she was pointing the gun at them, but instead she was wanting to die.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 7th 2012, 08:46 AM

While it would make it assisted suicide, police usually shoot to kill if they believe the person poses a life-threatening danger to police or other citizens. For example, someone takes a loaded gun into a mall and shoots several random people. When the police arrive, the person begins shooting at them, so the police return fire and kill the person. It can only be found out later if the person truly wanted to die, however, by punishing the officers, it implies they should not have shot, thereby allowing the person to continue shooting people and threatening the lives of others. It would only be appropriate to punish the officers if the person dropped their gun, told the police to kill them and the police obeyed because the person's motives are immediately known, so it's no longer, as TigerTank said, "a hindsight fallacy".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gymnophoria
Yes, they should be punished. It's not the job of the police to kill citizens. Besides, it'd be far too easy for a policeman to stand up in court and say "I killed him because he said it was what he wanted." There are good reasons why, in a lot of places, police are not allowed to use their guns unless they have no other option. No matter the circumstances, it's still murder and should be punished as such.


You're over-generalizing one situation to fit all situations where police kill someone. Police are meant to protect citizens and society, so taking the example I provided above, when the police cannot reason with the person to stop shooting other citizens, what should the police do? Twiddle their thumbs until the person runs out of ammo and hope they don't have another non-firearm weapon? Of course not, you would say the police should protect citizens and in such cases, doing so requires resolving the situation with deadly force. As I said, you're over-generalizing one situation to fit all, however, if you aren't and you hold such a view whenever police kill someone, then talking to a wall would be more feasible and easier to reason with.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 10th 2012, 05:36 PM

One thing too, is if the person WANTS to die then really the ONLY people being punished are the family and friends. The "criminal" is getting what he or she WANTED.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 10th 2012, 05:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST View Post
One thing too, is if the person WANTS to die then really the ONLY people being punished are the family and friends. The "criminal" is getting what he or she WANTED.
Again, you are applying facts learned after the incident to judgements made beforehand, and you can't do that. You're looking for an excuse, and there simply isn't one.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 10th 2012, 06:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTank77 View Post
Again, you are applying facts learned after the incident to judgements made beforehand, and you can't do that. You're looking for an excuse, and there simply isn't one.
Excuse or NOT it is STILL a FACT if someone wants something then and you do it for them you still are not punishing them.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 10th 2012, 06:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST View Post
Excuse or NOT it is STILL a FACT if someone wants something then and you do it for them you still are not punishing them.
Except for the fact that a cops job is not to punish, it is to protect.

And whether or not someone makes themselves a target on purpose is irrelevant, if they are putting people's lives in danger, than the cop HAS to act in order to protect those lives and his own.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 10th 2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTank77 View Post
Except for the fact that a cops job is not to punish, it is to protect.

And whether or not someone makes themselves a target on purpose is irrelevant, if they are putting people's lives in danger, than the cop HAS to act in order to protect those lives and his own.
It does not matter that he/they do not know until after the fact the person STILL sometimes had NO plan to take other people lives', thus it does NOT matter they did not know that.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 10th 2012, 07:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST View Post

It does not matter that he/they do not know until after the fact the person STILL sometimes had NO plan to take other people lives', thus it does NOT matter they did not know that.
How the hell are they supposed to know that then? Intent is the key here. Waving a gun around a school after assaulting another student would sound pretty clear cut to anyone else.

Hindsight bias people.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 10th 2012, 10:16 PM

Quote:
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It does not matter that he/they do not know until after the fact the person STILL sometimes had NO plan to take other people lives', thus it does NOT matter they did not know that.
Okay, so you're saying they didn't know if the kid with the BB gun had any intention to kill anyone, fair point. Aside from the fact that he had gotten into a physical alteration earlier, and refused to put down what was believe to be a real gun. Even if he didn't intend to kill anyone, he WAS posing a threat to himself, and likely others.

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Re: suicide by cop - January 10th 2012, 11:24 PM

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Originally Posted by JKmadu619 View Post
Okay, so you're saying they didn't know if the kid with the BB gun had any intention to kill anyone, fair point. Aside from the fact that he had gotten into a physical alteration earlier, and refused to put down what was believe to be a real gun. Even if he didn't intend to kill anyone, he WAS posing a threat to himself, and likely others.

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Re: suicide by cop - January 10th 2012, 11:48 PM

No, they shouldn't. There is no way for the cop to know the person is committing suicide by cop when the shot is fired. Plus, if the person has pulled a gun on the cop, is shooting at the cop or at other people it's best (s)he does shoot, IMO.

When a doctor gives a patient a lethal dose of a drug, they are aware what they are doing is going to kill the patient. Huge, huge difference.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 10th 2012, 11:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Incompris View Post
No, they shouldn't. There is no way for the cop to know the person is committing suicide by cop when the shot is fired. Plus, if the person has pulled a gun on the cop, is shooting at the cop or at other people it's best (s)he does shoot, IMO.

When a doctor gives a patient a lethal dose of a drug, they are aware what they are doing is going to kill the patient. Huge, huge difference.
I do not understand the point of the last sentence.




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Re: suicide by cop - January 11th 2012, 12:09 AM

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I do not understand the point of the last sentence.
There is a huge difference between assisted suicide and suicide by cop. Sorry it made sense to me, I forget people can't follow my weird train of thought.


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Re: suicide by cop - January 11th 2012, 07:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLorNOTHINGforCHRIST View Post

It does not matter that he/they do not know until after the fact the person STILL sometimes had NO plan to take other people lives', thus it does NOT matter they did not know that.
I agree 100%

In situations like this they should bring some sort of psychologist or negotiator to talk to the person. There should be a full psychoanalysis done to determine whether or not the person actually poses a threat. Honestly, that's not even very complete. They should interview family and friends, and do a search of the person's home for clues. And if in the mean time innocent civilians or cops die, no big deal. At least the innocent fuckwit waving a gun/gun-like object at police didn't get hurt.


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