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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Can anyone show me why they believe the Bible has been altered, changed, corrupted, etc.? - May 8th 2012, 03:03 AM

I ask for one thing. Do not use the translation argument. What I mean is, don't say, "The NIV is different from the NLT, which is different from the NRSV, which is different from the NASB, which is different from the NWL, etc." Please show me where it has actually be altered from the oldest manuscript we have, or an older manuscript, please.

I am not asking to debate. I just want to see other peoples reasoning. And I've heard so many people say that it has been changed, I'd just like to see why.


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Re: Can anyone show me why they believe the Bible has been altered, changed, corrupted, etc.? - May 8th 2012, 07:55 AM

Here is a great place to start.


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Re: Can anyone show me why they believe the Bible has been altered, changed, corrupted, etc.? - May 8th 2012, 05:48 PM

It says that there have been many erroneous views about the First Council's role in developing the biblical cannon, but there is no record of them even discussing the cannon.

?


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Re: Can anyone show me why they believe the Bible has been altered, changed, corrupted, etc.? - May 9th 2012, 08:49 PM

Using what Toz offered, look at the date of the *first* meeting about: "main accomplishments were settlement of the Christological issue of the nature of Jesus and his relationship to God the Father, the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicaea, settling the calculation of the date of Easter, and promulgation of early canon law"
Now, look at when it happened: 325 AD. That's 325 years full of time to forget something, add things, do whatever, to complete the church doctrine. Starting from May 20 and ending July 25, with approx. 1800 people there, surely not everyone agreed, thus going into a debate and ending up with something most everyone can agree on.
And, if I'm not mistaken, this is when/where they decided to take out certain books from the Bible to meet the criteria formed at this meeting. Again, at later dates, they also changed a bit:
http://carm.org/do-lost-books-bible-...s-been-altered
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/Bible/outside.stm

Other sources: Teaching Roman Catholic CCD for 6 years.



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Re: Can anyone show me why they believe the Bible has been altered, changed, corrupted, etc.? - May 9th 2012, 10:00 PM

Forgive me for not being clear. When I posted this, I meant I wanted to see examples of the actual texts being changed. The "lost books" don't necessarily prove anything. They are, to my mind, a different topic altogether. They have more to do with the actual cannon than the altering of religious texts. I'll give you an example, people will say things like, "The Gospels [Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John] were altered greatly." However, they never provide an example. The main religious group who I know claims this are Muslims. They believe the Gospels to a degree, that is, they believe the overall message can be found in them, but that they have been altered by adding and removing texts to make Christ look more like the messianic Messiah.


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Re: Can anyone show me why they believe the Bible has been altered, changed, corrupted, etc.? - May 16th 2012, 05:39 AM

The Bible is actually probably the most accurate and unchanged (to the originals or "autographs") book from around that period of history.

Pliny the Younger wrote around the same time in history (around 100 AD), and the validity of is writing is not often questioned. The earliest manuscript we have is from 1000 AD and we have 7 copies (manuscripts).

Plato wrote 427-347 BC. The earliest manuscript we have from him is 900 A.D.
There are 7 copies (manuscripts) from that date. Not many question the accuracy of his writing to his originals.

The New Testament writers all wrote in the 1st century AD. The earliest copies (manuscripts) we have can be dated back to the 1st and 2nd centuries. We have 5,000 Greek copies or fragment copies. 8,000 Latin copies in the following few centuries.


From a textual criticism standpoint, it sure is interesting when the Bible is dismissed as being altered/changed/corrupted over the years, when you consider the actual facts of translation and textual accuracy.
   
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Re: Can anyone show me why they believe the Bible has been altered, changed, corrupted, etc.? - May 16th 2012, 05:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBL87 View Post
The Bible is actually probably the most accurate and unchanged (to the originals or "autographs") book from around that period of history.

From a textual criticism standpoint, it sure is interesting when the Bible is dismissed as being altered/changed/corrupted over the years, when you consider the actual facts of translation and textual accuracy.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I may be wrong, but the people you listed weren't writing a "divinely inspired" holy book.
   
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Re: Can anyone show me why they believe the Bible has been altered, changed, corrupted, etc.? - May 16th 2012, 06:08 AM

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I may be wrong, but the people you listed weren't writing a "divinely inspired" holy book.
And I'm not arguing the claims in the book. That's a whole 'nother discussion entirely. The point I'm making is that, textually speaking, it should be and arguably is one of the most accurate books (to the original writing) from that time period. I'm talking about the Bible as a historical document, not a holy book. Do I believe it is a holy book? Yes, but we're talking about it's accuracy to its original autographs, not the accuracy of the claims in those autographs.
   
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Re: Can anyone show me why they believe the Bible has been altered, changed, corrupted, etc.? - May 16th 2012, 06:11 AM

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Originally Posted by jenpiglet17 View Post

And, if I'm not mistaken, this is when/where they decided to take out certain books from the Bible to meet the criteria formed at this meeting. Again, at later dates, they also changed a bit:
http://carm.org/do-lost-books-bible-...s-been-altered
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/Bible/outside.stm
Actually, the Bible (which did not have an official canon beforehand) looked pretty much the same before Nicea as it did after. There were a few writings (The Shepherd of Hermas, Epistle of Barnabas, some of Clement's writings) that were circulated along with scriptures at the time that were seen as genuinely Christian writings, but not of apostolic authorship and were not seen as scripture by most for that reason. Some of them were included in some "canons" prior to Nicea though, although very few books that were left out of the Nicean canon were given serious consideration for various reasons (time of writing, apostolic authorship or rather lack thereof, etc.). The Shepherd of Hermas and Epistle of Barnabas were among the ones that did get some consideration but were omitted mainly due to not being of Apostolic origin.

By the same token, a few early "canons" omitted books such as Hebrews, James, and 2 Peter, but they were generally considered Apostolic and were included as scripture in most pre-Nicean canons.

With the number of "canons" prior to the council, it makes sense that they set an official canon. However, unlike some may suggest, there was not a huge group of books that were considered scripture before the council that were removed during it. More than anything, it simply set in stone the books that were already generally included as canon, and clarified other writings that were genuinely Christian and perhaps even considered useful for Christians to read but were not scripture.
   
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