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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Question Creationism vs Evolution. - May 27th 2012, 08:30 AM

So I was watching an episode of The Simpsons where they introduced Creationism into Public Schools.
What do you think of Creationism and Evolution?


   
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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 27th 2012, 08:44 AM

Uh well, it's definitely a matter of which is more plausible, I guess. Considering the evidence that has been found throughout the world which appears to support evolution, and no evidence of any theory of creationism, I would say that evolution is more probable than not, and creationism is a fallacy.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 27th 2012, 08:57 AM

lol creationism.

There is no debate. You just have a bunch of people who don't want evolution to be true because it messes up with their religion even though many religious people accept it - albeit just putting god on top.

Creationism should never be taught in a science room. Ever. It's not a case of letting the children see both sides when one is supported with mountains of evidence and the other is just a misunderstanding of evolution then calling evolution a religion (i'm looking at you Kent hovind). Would you allow the flat earth society to teach in class? Because the would might be flat too, you just need to see both sides. Or astrology in a science class room... what about alchemy? It's ridiculous.

It's also annoying when people ask old questions to evolutionary biologists ( when they've been addressed a billion times before) and when they get no response then they class it is a victory. *sigh*

I could still learn a lot more about evolution. I haven't really looked at it for a while but I don't think there is any debate. Just emotional conviction and misunderstandings.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 27th 2012, 02:11 PM

You have to be more specific in what you mean by Creationism. Personally, in my mind, I don't find conflict with Creationism vs. Evolution, or the Big Bang. I don't accept evolution, though, I know it to be fact. I am one of those people Dawkins loathes because I know the "truth" but won't accept it because of faith. Anyways, my point is, I don't believe any of these things are at conflict with one another. G-D could have caused the Big Bang and Evolution, so I don't know why they are necessarily opposed to each other in so many people's minds, when they aren't.

However, I believe that Creationism, as a Christian, has no place in public schools. Why? Because there is no physical evidence for G-D. There is only physical evidence for a beginning or cause to our universe. This beginning doesn't necessarily have to be G-D. To my mind, it makes no sense that ANYTHING exists, including G-D. So, I personally find existence itself a mystery. Why does anything have to exist? I don't find any answer to this question satisfying. I can say, "G-D made it." Well, who made Him? And if He wasn't made, why was He always around? Why is He even necessary? And if He doesn't exist. Why does whatever existed before our Universe exist?

And, to my knowledge, science can never answer this. And religion will never satisfy the question because it's all based on faith.

And, while right now I don't accept evolution, this doesn't mean my mind may not be swayed one way or other in the future. I used to say, "Well, I accept microevolution, and speciation." Which, I still do. But, I realize how illogical it is to say I accept those things but deny macroevolution. Anyway, I might accept evolution in the future. I don't know. But, I know my faith won't currently let me. Not because I find them opposed to each other, but because I don't see why it matters, so I just take Genesis literally. Though, I am open to take it figuratively, and have heard convincing reasons to take it as such.

I just, personally, don't see why it matters where our origin came from. Even in science answers every mystery to our Universe. It STILL cannot eliminate G-D entirely. So to me, I see no point in even debating it. And some Christians might find that they need to defend it to support the Bible. But, G-D doesn't need our help supporting the bible. It also says in the NT that all people will recognize we are Christ's disciples by our love for one another. So, to me, the reason for unbelief is a lack of love amongst professing Christians. Not science.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 27th 2012, 04:05 PM

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
You have to be more specific in what you mean by Creationism. Personally, in my mind, I don't find conflict with Creationism vs. Evolution, or the Big Bang. I don't accept evolution, though, I know it to be fact. I am one of those people Dawkins loathes because I know the "truth" but won't accept it because of faith. Anyways, my point is, I don't believe any of these things are at conflict with one another. G-D could have caused the Big Bang and Evolution, so I don't know why they are necessarily opposed to each other in so many people's minds, when they aren't.
Woah, wait. You accept FACT but, in your own sick and twisted way, reject it for faith? I have no idea what I just read, but I don't feel any more enlightened. I actually feel like there's something wrong when someone believes the typical creationist beliefs (i.e. the world was created six thousand years ago in 7 days) and the concept of the big bang can co-exist as being fact (as opposed to two theories being equally plausible).

Taking the Bible as fact, as you would appear to do if you were as evangelical as you appear to be, you would read Genesis 1:1-2:24 as being completely contradictory of the Big Bang. Yet, you know the Big Bang is fact? Um, okay. That's almost as absurd as saying: "I believe the Earth is flat, but I know it to be spherical."


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 27th 2012, 05:49 PM

I think that creationism belongs in religion class. If you don't have one, tough luck. But it stays out of our SCIENCE classes.
   
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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 27th 2012, 10:40 PM

Agree with Maeve and Michael about the public school thing. Creationism has no place there, since it has no scientific evidence to back it up. If you want to learn about it, go to your church/Christian school. But there's no evidence of it.

I personally believe strongly with evolution. I plan on taking a class specifically on it. It makes sense to me, and explains so much about human beings.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 27th 2012, 10:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Composure View Post
Woah, wait. You accept FACT but, in your own sick and twisted way, reject it for faith? I have no idea what I just read, but I don't feel any more enlightened. I actually feel like there's something wrong when someone believes the typical creationist beliefs (i.e. the world was created six thousand years ago in 7 days) and the concept of the big bang can co-exist as being fact (as opposed to two theories being equally plausible).

Taking the Bible as fact, as you would appear to do if you were as evangelical as you appear to be, you would read Genesis 1:1-2:24 as being completely contradictory of the Big Bang. Yet, you know the Big Bang is fact? Um, okay. That's almost as absurd as saying: "I believe the Earth is flat, but I know it to be spherical."
I never said I was a Young Earth Creationist, either. I never really denied the Big Bang, either, nor have I found it incompatible with the Old Testament. Also, the Bible actually describes the Earth as a sphere over space, hung upon nothing. It also describes the Universe as continually expanding. While do not accept evolution, I do not rule it out. I believe theories, however "supported" they are, come and go. There certainly have been many theories over time, yet, they come and go. And we may say, "Well, we examine this, and do that, and knowledge is so much more advance," yet, I am certain nearly every civilization has believed this, yet, we constantly prove previous civilizations wrong on various topics. So, I do not feel need to invest my time in what some people call knowledge. I find need to invest my time in love for the poor. Whether I act upon this is another matter entirely. My point is, maybe in time, evolution will just look as stupid as the theory of G-D to other humans (or whatever specie may evolve from humans) in billions of years. I am in no place to claim the right of what is true and isn't. I don't know. I don't suppose I ever will.

I, personally, take the view of "why does it matter?" I believe there are more important things that what the Bible does or doesn't say about Creation. If evolution is true, cool. If it's not, cool. I am more concerned with the ethics of the New Testament and how I should be living according to Christ. Not whether or not a day is a day. Which there is considerable evidence it isn't.

So, when I say I believe whatever the Bible says, this is true. But, I do not claim to know what the Bible says, nor do I claim that our current translations of the Bible to be entirely accurate. I don't know. I'd explain more on how I determine my religious beliefs, but this thread isn't about me. So, I'm going to shut up.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 27th 2012, 11:16 PM

Evolution is the term applied to the vast amount of slow changes over time. It does NOT, nor is it intended to explain the origins of life, as is the case with Creationism. That particular study is called Abiogenesis.

Of Mike and Men, you've once again proved your knack for saying absolutely nothing significant across a wall of text- Just because what one civilization holds to be true scientifically at one point is disproven does not mean that it will happen to the theory of evolution. This is akin to the "It's just a theory!" argument. A scientific theory is one that is based in full fact, peer reviewed, and accepted by the leading researchers in that field. That doesn't make it a guess. And to use your own logic- The Mesopotamians had their own theology that was rejected as different civilizations arose- what makes Christianity any less susceptible to this?


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 28th 2012, 03:36 AM

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Of Mike and Men, you've once again proved your knack for saying absolutely nothing significant
Thank you. I honestly take this as a compliment because I never claimed to have any knowledge of truth. All I claim to be is a seeker. While it may be similar to the, "it's just a theory" argument, it doesn't rule it out either. If it turns out I'm wrong, so be it. I won't be rolling over in my grave over it. Or maybe I will?

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what makes Christianity any less susceptible to this?
It doesn't. As I've said, I don't know much of anything. I am not qualified to say, "This is truth, everything else is wrong." I don't know what truth is. I only know what I believe it to be. I don't suppose my understanding of Christianity will ever go away, if G-D is eternal. But, if He is just a myth, which is possible, perhaps even highly possible, I don't really care. As I've said, I'm more concerned with the ethics of Christianity as portrayed through Christ than I am about knowledge of anything.

So, sure, Christianity may go away, but it doesn't remove the important of the ethics taught in Christ. And I don't see Love ever fading away. Maybe it will once we evolve, if we do.

Regardless, I'm not concerned with an organized religion disappearing. In fact, I don't think it is a matter of if it will, but when. So, I don't really think this "Christianity" is any less susceptible. Nor have I ever said otherwise.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 28th 2012, 05:21 AM

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
It doesn't. As I've said, I don't know much of anything. I am not qualified to say, "This is truth, everything else is wrong."
...
I believe whatever the Bible says
If you were to believe the content of the bible, then you would arrive at the conclusion it propheses to be the one and only truth. Interestingly, you're refuting it, which is great but it has me wondering whether you believe in only parts of the bible or the entire bible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men
Even in science answers every mystery to our Universe. It STILL cannot eliminate G-D entirely.
...
there is no physical evidence for G-D.
I'm having a very hard time understanding your rationale. In order for god to be a possible answer for the mysteries in our universe from a scientific standpoint is if there is physical testable evidence for god. You boldly stated there is no such evidence, so you're contradicting yourself across your posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
So, sure, Christianity may go away, but it doesn't remove the important of the ethics taught in Christ. And I don't see Love ever fading away. Maybe it will once we evolve, if we do.
Humans have and currently are evolving. One such example is seen in sub-Saharan Africa in which Plasmodium falciparum malaria began to be less common especially among those who had sickle cell anemia. http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/190/5/1006.full

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men
I used to say, "Well, I accept microevolution, and speciation." Which, I still do. But, I realize how illogical it is to say I accept those things but deny macroevolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men
I don't know. But, I know my faith won't currently let me. Not because I find them opposed to each other, but because I don't see why it matters, so I just take Genesis literally.
If you truly were not concerned with accepting evolution, then there would be no harm in doing so. It's clear that you don't because it's not supported by your faith-based rationale (whatever that rationale happens to be). Interestingly, you state accepting evolution is inconsequential while at the same time, accept and deny it. The mindfuck results because all of this is based on a faulty premise: Genesis is the default for not accepting evolution, when in fact, it should be abiogenesis. In the end, it's nonsense and chaos, with nothing meaningful.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 28th 2012, 06:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
Thank you. I honestly take this as a compliment because I never claimed to have any knowledge of truth. All I claim to be is a seeker. While it may be similar to the, "it's just a theory" argument, it doesn't rule it out either. If it turns out I'm wrong, so be it. I won't be rolling over in my grave over it. Or maybe I will?
Take it however you will, that is no concern of mine. It is however amusing that you claim to be a seeker, yet deny what is commonly known as truth amongst the leading TRUE seekers of knowledge- scientists. And it DOES rule out the "It's just a theory" argument. As Kevin Padian put it in the Dover court case, "A theory, in science, [is] a very large body of information that's withstood a lot of testing. It probably consists of a number of different hypotheses, many different lines of evidence. And it's something that is very difficult to slay with an ugly fact, as Huxley once put it, because it's just a complex body of work that's been worked on through time." That does not mean it is a guess, or a hypothesis. It is a scientific truth that is constantly being explored and updated.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
It doesn't. As I've said, I don't know much of anything. I am not qualified to say, "This is truth, everything else is wrong." I don't know what truth is. I only know what I believe it to be. I don't suppose my understanding of Christianity will ever go away, if G-D is eternal. But, if He is just a myth, which is possible, perhaps even highly possible, I don't really care. As I've said, I'm more concerned with the ethics of Christianity as portrayed through Christ than I am about knowledge of anything.

So, sure, Christianity may go away, but it doesn't remove the important of the ethics taught in Christ. And I don't see Love ever fading away. Maybe it will once we evolve, if we do.

Regardless, I'm not concerned with an organized religion disappearing. In fact, I don't think it is a matter of if it will, but when. So, I don't really think this "Christianity" is any less susceptible. Nor have I ever said otherwise.
I think Nick handled this part admirably well.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 28th 2012, 01:38 PM

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Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
If you were to believe the content of the bible, then you would arrive at the conclusion it propheses to be the one and only truth. Interestingly, you're refuting it, which is great but it has me wondering whether you believe in only parts of the bible or the entire bible?
I do not find anywhere in the Bible that the Bible claims to be the "one truth." So, the statement that one can only accept the Bible as truth is a fallacy and contradicting, at best. Let me give a quick example: If ONLY believe the Bible, then we would have NO Bible, because the Bible does not contain a list of scriptures that are to be included. That is, we find no where in the Bible a passage which says, "Genesis belongs in the Bible, Exodus belongs in the Bible, etc."

The Bible never claims to be the only truth.

Then, what do I believe about the Bible? I am still working this out. But, the best I can say, I believe whatever G-D says about Himself, though I do not know what this is. In essence, I do not want to claim, "This is what I believe about G-D, and everyone else is wrong." Why? Because, if I am wrong, then I've believed in the wrong G-D. So, my developing on understanding G-D is a bit distorted right now, and, well, contradicting, I confess. Which is why I say I don't have the right to claim that I know truth. I don't. I just hope in G-D. Whom I believe to be Truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
I'm having a very hard time understanding your rationale. In order for god to be a possible answer for the mysteries in our universe from a scientific standpoint is if there is physical testable evidence for god. You boldly stated there is no such evidence, so you're contradicting yourself across your posts.
Just because we prove there is no physical evidence for G-D, doesn't mean He doesn't exist. It can mean, for example, that we have not yet developed anything to make known His existence, that He left no evidence, or that there is no G-D. In other words, just because we prove there is no flying spaghetti monster, it doesn't mean that somewhere out there, there might be. Even if the notion is completely ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMFG!You'reActuallySmart! View Post
If you truly were not concerned with accepting evolution, then there would be no harm in doing so. It's clear that you don't because it's not supported by your faith-based rationale (whatever that rationale happens to be). Interestingly, you state accepting evolution is inconsequential while at the same time, accept and deny it. The mindfuck results because all of this is based on a faulty premise: Genesis is the default for not accepting evolution, when in fact, it should be abiogenesis. In the end, it's nonsense and chaos, with nothing meaningful.
While this is true, as I may or may not have conveyed, I have difficulty even determining my own beliefs regarding the Bible. I believe it is useful for certain things, but whether it is infallible is another discussion. So, while Genesis may be true or evolution may be true or maybe something else entirely, I do not know, nor claim to know. I don't claim Young Earth Creationist to be true, nor evolution. I simply don't know, and at this time, don't find it all that important.

I'm sorry my answers are contradicting, a mess, and unsatisfying perhaps intellectually and spiritually. I simply find there are more important things to me. While it may be important to some, I find that what is important is that I am here now, and that I want to attempt to live ethically while I am, and I get my ethics from Christ. I find that this is perhaps more important that debates about the origin of the Universe.

Respond however you will, I probably won't be back on this thread, as it seems unfruitful.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 29th 2012, 07:02 AM

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I do not find anywhere in the Bible that the Bible claims to be the "one truth."
The First Commandment makes it very clear that if one is to believe in Christianity, they shouldn't support other religions at all. There are a variety of other passages all throughout the bible, which is what I was referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
I believe whatever G-D says about Himself, though I do not know what this is.
These are the statements that confuse me to no end. God describes himself and others describe him quite thoroughly, which is why I don't understand the bold part. It's akin to me saying I accept evolution and all the scientific evidence for it but I don't know what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
Just because we prove there is no physical evidence for G-D, doesn't mean He doesn't exist.
I was addressing that science cannot be used to verify or dispute his existence due to the absence of physical evidence. Science relies on evidence that is verifiable and testable, thus even if he does exist, without any such evidence, science cannot be used.

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
I don't claim Young Earth Creationist to be true, nor evolution. I simply don't know, and at this time, don't find it all that important.
You evaded my question, or perhaps I didn't elaborate, so I'll break it into two parts. First, if you do not find it important at all, then what is the harm in accepting a particular viewpoint, such as evolution? Second, does accepting evolution or YEC have a bearing on the ethics of Christ? In my mind it doesn't but that's probably because I haven't given as much thought about the ethics of Christ, so perhaps you do find it to impact your focus. If so, why and what is the impact?


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 29th 2012, 05:13 PM

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The First Commandment makes it very clear that if one is to believe in Christianity, they shouldn't support other religions at all. There are a variety of other passages all throughout the bible, which is what I was referring to.
I am responding on my phone, so, please, forgive me of any mistakes.

The first commandment has nothing to do with Christianity as an organized religion. It has to do with the oneness of G-D. And how we define the Christian G-D would differentiate from denomination to denomination, so, then, which one is the real.G-D? This is why I simply say that I don't know exactly who He is. This also has nothing to do with the infallibility of the Bible. Jews, Muslims, and Christians all believe in the ten commandments. So, then, is G-D the same G-D over all these religions?


Quote:
These are the statements that confuse me to no end. God describes himself and others describe him quite thoroughly, which is why I don't understand the bold part. It's akin to me saying I accept evolution and all the scientific evidence for it but I don't know what it is.
I believe there is a G-D, and I believe in whoever He say He is. But, I believe our understanding of Him will be flawed. So, I try not to claim that He is this or He is that because I am uncertain. Some theologians claim He is one way, and some another. Then, who am I to try and say who He is? Similarly, you may understand a topic, say, evolution, but you will never know all about it.

Quote:
You evaded my question, or perhaps I didn't elaborate, so I'll break it into two parts. First, if you do not find it important at all, then what is the harm in accepting a particular viewpoint, such as evolution? Second, does accepting evolution or YEC have a bearing on the ethics of Christ? In my mind it doesn't but that's probably because I haven't given as much thought about the ethics of Christ, so perhaps you do find it to impact your focus. If so, why and what is the impact?
There is no harm in accepting a viewpoint. I just don't find it too important. So, I leave my options open for when that area may become important to me. Likewise, why don't I just accept YEC? Well, it doesn't matter to me how G-D originated life. It matters more to me that I am here now, and what I do now. Sure, if those things, creation, evolution, whatever, didn't take place, I wouldn't be here. But, what matters, to me, is that I am here. If G-D is real, I'm sure one day I will understand our origins fully. The Bible seems to show things as happening instantaneously, but, then in other instances, it shows it taking time. And if there is no G-D and I don't find out, well, I guess none of it will really matter to me when I am dead.

Christ never taught about YEC, or otherwise. I don't find that He wasted so much time debating. He simply taught a new way, which, I suppose could be a form of debate. However, it seemed His ethics revolved around justice, mercy, humbleness, and forgiveness. Since Christ didnt debate with gentiles about creation, or what have you,.I don't think it is that important of a point for a Christian. But, I believe that in proving the existence of G-D is dependent on Christ's ethics. Not on debates, philosophy, or science. I can explain this if you want, but it seems like another topic.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 30th 2012, 08:33 AM

Mike, have you read the other 'Holy Books'? Or just the Bible? If you have only read the Bible, and you are a proponent of Christianity (as you appear to be) you would read the Bible down, and understand it as fact. You would, as a prononent of Christianity, believe only in the Christian God over all others. It is with great pleasure, then, that I pronounce you the most undecided evangelical Christian I have ever met (assuming you meet the above requirements).

Of course, there is nothing stopping you from questioning your own beliefs (as you so clearly do), but fence sitters, as you can imagine, are highly annoying to many people who take either side and stay within that camp. Being a former proponent of popular "Atheist theories" (I say that with caution, though I understand that there is clear differences between general theist theories and atheist theories), you would likely have a very inquisitive and critical mind. I commend you for that, but you must understand how annoying it is when one claims to be something, but advocates to the contrary.

Just saying.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 30th 2012, 01:03 PM

I have read other holy books, the Qur'an. I enjoy the writings of Rumi, Hafiz, and Bawa Muhaiyaddeen. Sufism is very interesting to me. Now, I am a proponent of Christ and G-D, but not of the Christian religion. I take views similar to Soren Kierkegaard and Leo Tolstoy, as far as organized religion goes. I believe it is a place people go to think they are being a good Christian, without Christ's actual teachings ever coming to close. They think not looking at porn, getting married, being responsible, etc. are the way of the Christian. While not bad endeavors, they live in the letter of the law, and not in the Spirit. They spend milllions on new churches that aren't needed and forget about the poor, the outcasts, the sick, and they might remember them for a missions trip for a few months or a year, but then forget that their home is a mission.

I believe differently about G-D than most Christians. The issue I find with being a proponent of the Bible is that so many people claim to understand it. Yet, all of them arrive at different conclusions. So, does anyone really understand the Bible? Christ always said that those who claim to see are blind guides leading the blind. Every time someone in the new testament claimed to know the Bible, they we're wrong. So, the only way around this is to have a sort of constant blindness.

Also, I don't believe the Bible to be infallible. It's contradicting. The Bible never claims to.be the one truth. So, to believe in the infallibility of scripture, scripture should say it is infallible. Yet, people refer to the Bible as G-D's word or truth. But, the Bible claims the Word is Christ and the Truth is Christ, not the Bible. So, while I believe the Bible contains enough in it to reveal salvation, I do not think it G-D's word, because that is Christ. There are also blatant contradictions. One passage says Judas fell off a cliff, the other says he hung himself. So, then you try to reconcile it like, "He hung himself and the branch broke and he fell off a cliff." It just gets redundant.

The Bible also says the Holy Spirit will guide us in all matters. It doesn't say the Bible will guide us in all matters. So, then, why is the Bible "G-D's infallible word," when all this changed with Christ?


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 30th 2012, 01:07 PM

It's not that I'm a fence-sitter, it's that I dissent with so much, that I'm rather agnostic towards the two standpoints discussed. And if this makes me a fence-sitter, that is fine. I'm not trying to please anyone but G-D with my beliefs. However, my beliefs are best summed up in Christ.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 30th 2012, 04:37 PM

The way I think of it: it took Him a few tries to get it how He wanted it


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 30th 2012, 07:28 PM

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
It's not that I'm a fence-sitter, it's that I dissent with so much, that I'm rather agnostic towards the two standpoints discussed. And if this makes me a fence-sitter, that is fine. I'm not trying to please anyone but G-D with my beliefs. However, my beliefs are best summed up in Christ.
Would you call yourself an Agnostic Christian in the Huxley sense of the phrase?

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Originally Posted by Roy-kun231 View Post
The way I think of it: it took Him a few tries to get it how He wanted it
Because that's what a "PERFECT" God would do.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 30th 2012, 08:14 PM

I don't see any reason why God couldn't have created evolution.
   
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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 30th 2012, 09:06 PM

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Would you call yourself an Agnostic Christian in the Huxley sense of the phrase?
Please forgive me for my wall of text. The brief answer is in the first few sentences (and the last paragraph). The rest is me elaborating and rambling, for anyone who cares.

To a lesser degree, maybe. Like Huxley, I do not believe anyone for certainty can claim that there is or isn't a G-D. Though, in an appeal to intuition, I am quite certain there is. I do not think philosophy, science, or anything, save the ethics and love of Christ, can prove the existence of G-D. When I say, "the love of Christ," I don't mean just His dying for the world, but the love of Christ living in men and women who are His children born of Spirit.

That is, genuine Christians. Not just professing Christians who say, "I am a Christian," yet don't follow the commandment of Christ. Those who support war, over-indulge, do not have mercy, nor peace, those who do not shed grace, but only dispute, those who lie, give into immorality, etc. I don't believe these people are Christians. But, it's not really for me to judge, that is for G-D.

But, Christ always said we would know His disciples by their love. He said those who follow His commandments are the ones who love Him. Yet, we have all these Christians who support killing Osama, Saddam, and innocent men, women, and children in the Middle East, all because they are these "radical terrorists." While Christ said to bless those who harm you, pray for those who persecute you. He didn't say, "If someone harms you, kill them. If they persecute you, bomb them." He said to forgive them, to let them trample over you, and to leave room for His vengeance. To me, it takes faith to believe that G-D will deal justly with Saddam, Osama, Hitler, and those people. But, I also believe those who kill others, for any reason, even out of justice, will be judged in the same measure. That is, if someone rapes my wife, then I go and kill the man who raped my wife. I believe G-D will deal with me in the same manner that I dealt with that man. See, I took the judgment of G-D into my own hands, and killed him, instead of leaving room for G-D's vengeance, and having faith that G-D will deal with Him justly. Yet, in modern Christianity, we support slaughtering those who harm us for "freedom."

See to me, the Christianity portrayed in our modern time, is not true Christianity. I believe if it was, there would be less question of G-D's existence (save for the most skeptical -- but even then, maybe G-D can transcend that skepticism). The early Christians were imprisoned, beaten, and killed. Yet, Paul said, "being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer;" He didn't say, "being reviled, we revile, being persecuted, we kill."

I must also say, I do not claim that I am perfect, or even a Christian in the sense that I am describing. I am perhaps the worst hypocrite. But, I cannot help but make these observations.

So, back to your question, to a degree I am like Huxley. But, I consider myself considerably dogmatic, in the sense that I do believe in Christ, and in G-D. And I am quite certain they exist(ed). But, as to who exactly they are, and how exactly they act, I am uncertain.

You see, we have one theologian who will say, "G-D hate's gays," another will say, "G-D loves the sinner, but hates the sin," another will say, "G-D loves gays." Well, which is it? Because you're describing 3 different G-Ds. So to me, I rather not take a stance on that for fear of being wrong. I'd rather just be slow to speak about issues like this. I feel it isn't for me to bring G-D into judgment and say, "THIS IS G-D, THIS IS HOW HE IS, EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG." Rather, I think we should focus on what He commands of us, and living with mercy, forgiveness, peace, and pureness of heart. And things like evolution, creation, etc. well, I think these things can take importance, to me, once I figure living rightly while maintaining faith in Christ to work these out in me (whatever that means).

I'm sorry if this doesn't answer your question. Forgive me.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 30th 2012, 10:57 PM

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I don't see any reason why God couldn't have created evolution.
It depends on how you define evolution.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 30th 2012, 11:36 PM

What I mean is, why couldn't God have allowed there to be evolution? What's the point in creating a new thing that's just a little bit different, when evolution can just make it happen.
   
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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 30th 2012, 11:47 PM

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What I mean is, why couldn't God have allowed there to be evolution? What's the point in creating a new thing that's just a little bit different, when evolution can just make it happen.
Technically, there is no reason G-D couldn't have caused, or created, evolution. The problem runs into textual criticism, hermeneutics, and the interpretation of Genesis 1, if talking about Abrahamic religions. In this case you may run into conflict. Though, this is debatable.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 31st 2012, 07:39 AM

Mike, for a non-Christian, you certainly side with Christianity because it suits you. No, you're not a fence sitter, you just PREFER not to be associated with Christianity, despite being a profound believer of their ideologies. That is not fence sitting, and that's not agnosticism, that's just... Absurd.

I will say something now: I am nothing. I am, technically speaking, an Atheist and believe in nothing. However, I could simply concede that God exists, should evidence arise. I do currently accept that there is no higher power due to its lack of evidential proof. I don't know quite what I believe on the scientific front, because there are equally plausible explanations under such a category.

Further, I do not know who Huxley is. I don't know any theologists, and tend to steer away from any reading of philosophy outside of what is required of me by my degree. To a point, I don't care how the world came into existence: it won't change anything if I do subscribe to a particular theory. Thus, I don't quite understand what you could be classified as. I don't know enough philosophy, theological pronouns to give you a title, but from what I read of yours, I can sum it up pretty much as follows:

1. You believe in God and believe that the word of God was cast down through Jesus Christ (or something like that, whatever);
2. You concede that God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient.
3. You subscribe to the Bible insofar as it determines your ideals and conscience.
4. You reject the theory of the world beginning in Genesis 1-2.
5. You accept that it is impossible to know which God exists, so you argue that it doesn't matter, and that a God is a God.
6. You don't reject science, but find the Bible to be a better explanation of how the Universe is.
7. You reject every denomination of every religion.

So, in conclusion... you have created your own religion based on the teachings of the Bible, am I right?


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 31st 2012, 12:07 PM

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I don't see any reason why God couldn't have created evolution.
I'm not in support of such a theory, but thank you for pointing that out.
Creationists so often fail to understand that evolution does not seek to investigate or observe the origin of life. As Toz said, that's abiogenesis.
Only New Earth Creationists are objected to it on semi-logical grounds, because they don't believe enough time has elapsed for much evolution to occur. But the notion of New Earth Creationism is some of the most lacking in evidence of all notions I've seen regarding religion.


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Re: Creationism vs Evolution. - May 31st 2012, 02:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Composure View Post
Mike, for a non-Christian, you certainly side with Christianity because it suits you. No, you're not a fence sitter, you just PREFER not to be associated with Christianity,

1. You believe in God and believe that the word of God was cast down through Jesus Christ (or something like that, whatever);
2. You concede that God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient.
3. You subscribe to the Bible insofar as it determines your ideals and conscience.
4. You reject the theory of the world beginning in Genesis 1-2.
5. You accept that it is impossible to know which God exists, so you argue that it doesn't matter, and that a God is a God.
6. You don't reject science, but find the Bible to be a better explanation of how the Universe is.
7. You reject every denomination of every religion.

So, in conclusion... you have created your own religion based on the teachings of the Bible, am I right?
I do not mind being associated with Christianity, just not the organized religious version of it. Rather, a follower of Christ. However, I terribly fail at following. So, rather, I guesa I am a want-to-be-follower-of-Christ.

1. I believe the Word of G-D is the Person of Christ, not the Bible. If that is what you mean, then, yes.

2. I believe that G-D is more knowledgeable than anyone, can be anywhere, and is more powerful than anything. I don't find the word omni necessarily true, but maybe it is.

3. To a degree. I believe it Is profitable for teaching, conviction, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. But, I believe the Holy Spirit teaches us Truth, ideals, morality, etc.

4. I don't accept it, nor reject it.

5. I believe it is impossible, more or less, to define G-D specifically, or to put Him in a box. I believe He works through people of all religions. That is, anyone who has the fruits of the Spirit, is a believer in the True G-D, or Christ. They simply don't consciously recognize their belief in Christ.

6. I believe science explains things which can be examined, but it can never rule out G-D.

7. I deny organized religion, but believe it can contain some Spiritual profit, but mostly harm and delusion.

I don't believe I've created a religion, I simply seek the origin of Christian beliefs, and seek to allow G-D to guide me in all matters.


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