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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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Lightbulb What do you think? - August 9th 2012, 04:35 AM

So just curious, what do you think about Mormons?
And if you are a Mormon would you mind either posting your testimony or PM me it? It would help a bunch (: thanks ^-^
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 9th 2012, 05:05 AM

I grew up with many LDS people because my hometown is near Utah. I think they have a very bad rep when really, their religion isn't a whole lot different than "regular" Christianity. I had a lot of friends who were Mormon. Have nothing against them, I don't believe in their religion, but I'm not a Christian either.


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Re: What do you think? - August 9th 2012, 06:19 AM

Many LDS followers are some of the nicest people I have ever met, but I do not agree with their religion.



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Re: What do you think? - August 9th 2012, 07:32 PM

Disallows sex outside of marriage.
Disallows alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, addictive substances.
Same sex marriage or relationships are not supported by the LDS church.
Magical underwear.
Some illegally practice polygamy and or child marriage.
Can "save" non-Mormons from being separated from God in the afterlife, somehow. Related controversy involving the late Anne Frank.
Supposed to keep a year's supply a food on hand at all times.
Adam used to be mortal, was resurrected and then exalted (raised to the level of heaven in which you get your own planet) and brought Eve, one of his wives down to the planet (our planet) and became mortal by eating the fruit. (Also referred to as the Adam-God doctrine- taught by Brigham Young).
People with direct African descent(re: black men) were not allowed to become priest until 1978.

It's basically like this: regular Christians often go, "those Mormons aren't *real* Christians! Magical underwear, what craziness!".

And then I stand over here and think, "Dude, you think snakes used to walk. You don't get to judge whether they are crazy."
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 10th 2012, 06:23 AM

I think they are annoying door knockers who don't take no for an answer...
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 10th 2012, 04:53 PM

What I think about Mormons is that they are not Christians, because they believe that you have to work for your salvation instead of just receiving it by believing that Jesus died to save you. There are a lot of other "little" things that I disagree with them about, but that one is the reason why I say they aren't Christians.

I also disagree with them about the "special underwear", the fact that they think we become gods when we die, the fact that they believe Jesus and lucifer were brothers, etc. etc. ....I disagree with those things not because they seem "crazy", but rather because the bible says otherwise. However, it's only what you believe about salvation that determines if you are a Christian or not. They believe that you have to work for your salvation, which is why I say that they are not Christians.

This last part is slightly off topic, but Mormons also always seem to be very polite and nice to everyone (the one I've met anyways). I know this probably isn't what the OP was asking, and it doesn't excuse their false teachings...but I'm just saying...they're generally nice.

One last thing- I'm not saying I'm any better than them. Without Jesus, I'm just as bad. I was a non-Christian once too, and it's only by the grace of God that that changed.
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 10th 2012, 05:42 PM

I have a couple friends who are Mormons and, as Traci said, I think they are unfairly put down for their faith. I see absolutely no issue with them believing the things that they believe and wanting to share that with people. Sure, they can get pushy from time to time, but the same can be said for a lot of Christians.


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Re: What do you think? - August 11th 2012, 06:35 AM

I think that they get an unfair reputation due to the media portrayal of the extremists in the religion. Not all Mormans practice or believe in polygamy and not all mormans believe or practice child marriage.

From what I have learned about their religion I don't agree with it for a number of reasons but I do not base my feelings toward a person on what religion they practice. If you are a nice person I will definitely take the chance of getting to know you.

If you want to learn more about the religion maybe you could google it online or find some books in the library or bookstore? Sometimes reading is the best way to gain more knowledge about a religion.


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Re: What do you think? - August 11th 2012, 10:36 PM

The same thing I think about people of any faith. There are good ones, there are bad ones. But their morality is absolute, so I can't agree with them.


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Re: What do you think? - August 12th 2012, 08:25 AM

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
What I think about Mormons is that they are not Christians, because they believe that you have to work for your salvation instead of just receiving it by believing that Jesus died to save you.
Maybe this just comes from somebody who's grown up completely outside of the Christian faith, I do not understand this. Baptists, Catholics, Mormons, aren't they call "Christians" just following different sects? Just because they add on parts you don't believe in dosen't mean they're not a Christian.

Christian noun: a person who believes in Jesus Christ.

Mormons believe in Jesus Christ. Therefore, they're Christians. Just not the same type of Christian. See, I don't believe in Jesus Christ, therefore, I'm not a Christian. But they do. Why do the other things matter?

I'm really just curious on why these parts matter. You can think they're wrong and going to hell, but they're still Christians, right?


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Re: What do you think? - August 12th 2012, 03:22 PM

Megan means they aren't "true" Christians. Generally more conservative Christians believe, for the most part, that anyone who disagrees with their for form of doctrine is not a Christian. Of course, there are exceptions. But, in my experience, I've found most of those who take this view are generally mistaken and misunderstand the other persons faith. It's funny because you could ask why a "true Christian" would be judging a Mormon as a non-Christian, if Christ taught to leave judgment to god. But, you know, I guess it's just another one of those things Christians want to ignore. At least more conservative ones. It's ironic because most of them don't realize their own hypocrisy. But you know, at least they have gone from saying, "Anyone who disagrees with me is eternally damned," unlike saying, "You'r eternally damned," and then burning them at the stake like they did 500 years ago. Progress.
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 12th 2012, 04:52 PM

I'm no expert on their beliefs by any means, but while I find some parts of their narrative a bit eyebrow-raising (particularly the nature of how the Book of Mormon came into being) I view their beliefs in the same way as any other. I certainly don't believe it justifies the level of suspicion it tends to engender, which to me smacks more of fear and lack of understanding rather than anything from the religion itself.


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Re: What do you think? - August 12th 2012, 07:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Revolution View Post

Maybe this just comes from somebody who's grown up completely outside of the Christian faith, I do not understand this. Baptists, Catholics, Mormons, aren't they call "Christians" just following different sects? Just because they add on parts you don't believe in dosen't mean they're not a Christian.

Christian noun: a person who believes in Jesus Christ.

Mormons believe in Jesus Christ. Therefore, they're Christians. Just not the same type of Christian. See, I don't believe in Jesus Christ, therefore, I'm not a Christian. But they do. Why do the other things matter?

I'm really just curious on why these parts matter. You can think they're wrong and going to hell, but they're still Christians, right?
The bible's definition of a Christian is not just someone who believes that Jesus exists. Even Satan believes in the existance of Jesus Christ, but he's obviously not a Christian, right? When the bible uses the word "Christian", it describes someone who has been saved by Christ by trusting in Him alone to save them from sin (you've probably seen me post about what that means before, but if not, you can find out what it means to be saved by going to www.themostimportantthing.webs.com and clicking on "Why Do I Need Jesus", or let me know if you want to know more).

That always used to confuse me too before I was saved, because I had always called myself "Christian" my whole life, just because I believed in the existance of Jesus. It wasn't until I was 16 and read the bible for myself that I realized what a Christian actually was and that I was not one...which was when I got saved and actually became a Christian.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
Megan means they aren't "true" Christians. Generally more conservative Christians believe, for the most part, that anyone who disagrees with their for form of doctrine is not a Christian. Of course, there are exceptions. But, in my experience, I've found most of those who take this view are generally mistaken and misunderstand the other persons faith. It's funny because you could ask why a "true Christian" would be judging a Mormon as a non-Christian, if Christ taught to leave judgment to god. But, you know, I guess it's just another one of those things Christians want to ignore. At least more conservative ones. It's ironic because most of them don't realize their own hypocrisy. But you know, at least they have gone from saying, "Anyone who disagrees with me is eternally damned," unlike saying, "You'r eternally damned," and then burning them at the stake like they did 500 years ago. Progress.
The bible doesn't say not to judge. Matthew 7 does say "Do not judge so you will not be judged", but you have to read it in context with that whole paragraph instead of just that one verse. If you keep reading, it says: "For the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, te log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take te speck out of your brother's eye."

^^^^This only says to examine yourself before judging others. For example, don't judge someone else for committing adultery if you're doing it too. It doesn't say not to tell other people that they are wrong. In fact, it specifically says to fix your own sin before telling someone else that they are wrong, THEN fix the other person. I am not a Mormon who believes in works to save me, so I am free to say that they are wrong. This verse says that God will judge me by the standard that I judge them (granted, I'm saved, so I'll still go to Heaven if I do something wrong). I'm judging them for being Mormons, therefore, God will judge me by that standard...and I will be found innocent, because I am not a Mormon.

Also, it does say to leave revenge to God...meaning, don't burn people at stake and try to get back at them for their sins. That's God's job. But that doesn't mean we can't say they are wrong. It just means it isn't our job to punish them. We also should love them and be nice to them even if we know they are wrong.

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Re: What do you think? - August 13th 2012, 02:11 AM

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Originally Posted by Revolution View Post


Maybe this just comes from somebody who's grown up completely outside of the Christian faith, I do not understand this. Baptists, Catholics, Mormons, aren't they call "Christians" just following different sects? Just because they add on parts you don't believe in dosen't mean they're not a Christian.

Christian noun: a person who believes in Jesus Christ.

Mormons believe in Jesus Christ. Therefore, they're Christians. Just not the same type of Christian. See, I don't believe in Jesus Christ, therefore, I'm not a Christian. But they do. Why do the other things matter?

I'm really just curious on why these parts matter. You can think they're wrong and going to hell, but they're still Christians, right?
It's just one example out of many of how each of the hundreds of sects of the hundreds of religions "knows" that their specific doctrine is the only true one.

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Even Satan believes in the existance of Jesus Christ, but he's obviously not a Christian, right?
Poor analogy because Satan is not demonstrably real.


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Re: What do you think? - August 13th 2012, 02:41 AM

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The bible doesn't say not to judge. Matthew 7 does say "Do not judge so you will not be judged", but you have to read it in context with that whole paragraph instead of just that one verse. If you keep reading, it says: "For the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, te log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take te speck out of your brother's eye."


^^^^This only says to examine yourself before judging others. For example, don't judge someone else for committing adultery if you're doing it too. It doesn't say not to tell other people that they are wrong. In fact, it specifically says to fix your own sin before telling someone else that they are wrong, THEN fix the other person.
To list a few NT passages:

Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

Romans 14:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

James 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I am not a Mormon who believes in works to save me, so I am free to say that they are wrong.
Technically, since it is speaking in matters of faith, not objectivity, it is relative. So, the most you can say is that you disagree with them. You can't prove works don't save, you can use citation and proof texts, but the Mormon can do the same. Thus, you merely disagree. You cannot say for certain that the Mormon is wrong, because, well, you have no proof. You can say you pray, that god guided you, or whatever you want, but the Mormon can say the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I'm judging them for being Mormons, therefore, God will judge me by that standard...and I will be found innocent, because I am not a Mormon.
You are judging them saying that they are not Christians, they could then say to you, "You are not Christian because you are Protestant."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Also, it does say to leave revenge to God...meaning, don't burn people at stake and try to get back at them for their sins. That's God's job. But that doesn't mean we can't say they are wrong. It just means it isn't our job to punish them. We also should love them and be nice to them even if we know they are wrong.
You don't know they're wrong. You believe they are wrong. Just like they believe you are wrong.
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 13th 2012, 09:55 AM

I don't know enough about Mormonism to make a judgement, and I haven't met any in person, so I'll withhold judgement for now. From what I can see though, they're simply another Christian denomination, they just differ from other denominations on individual points like they all do. Seems rather ridiculous for another Christian group to say "You're not real Christians, if you were you'd believe what I believe!" when even I as an atheist know how subjective the Bible is.

Also MFW I read the debates/philosophy sections on TH these days


   
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Re: What do you think? - August 13th 2012, 12:12 PM

Jews in America fighting the Indians killed, some swindler finds magic tablets that no one else sees, creates religion, sex with many women.

Bullshit.

I hate Mormons.


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Re: What do you think? - August 13th 2012, 03:29 PM

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To list a few NT passages:

1. Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

2. Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

3. Romans 14:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

4. 1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

5. James 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.
I numbered the verses in your post so I wouldn't have to quote it 5 separate times.

1. He was saying this to the Romans, who were doing the same sins that they were judging other people for. While I do mess up and sin sometimes, I am not doing the same things that I am judging Mormons for doing. When someone else is doing a sin that I also do, I fix my own sin before correcting them- just like the verse in Matthew 7 tells us to.

2. If you read the whole chapter instead of just that verse, it is talking about judging them for things like what foods they eat and what Christian holidays they do/don't celebrate. This chapter is telling the Romans not to do that, because it is a matter of conviction and not commandment. This isn't talking about not judging them for actual sins.

3. Same as #2.

For numbers 4 and 5, let me ask you this: what is your definition of "judging"? Because when I say that I am judging someone, I just mean that I am acknowledging that they are doing something wrong. I don't mean to say that I am better than them or anything like that. For me, when I say I am judging someone, I just mean like this:

If the bible says "lying is a sin", and then I see someone lying, I acknowledge that they are sinning. Acknowledging that someone is wrong is not the same as condeming them (which I think is what these 2 verses are talking about).

Another example: if the bible says "you must rely on Jesus alone to save you in order to be a Christian", and someone flat out tells you "I don't rely on Jesus alone to save me", it's common sense that they aren't a Christian. Is that even judging when the bible says "you must do this to be a Christian" and someone says "I didn't do that"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
Technically, since it is speaking in matters of faith, not objectivity, it is relative. So, the most you can say is that you disagree with them. You can't prove works don't save, you can use citation and proof texts, but the Mormon can do the same. Thus, you merely disagree. You cannot say for certain that the Mormon is wrong, because, well, you have no proof. You can say you pray, that god guided you, or whatever you want, but the Mormon can say the same.



You are judging them saying that they are not Christians, they could then say to you, "You are not Christian because you are Protestant."



You don't know they're wrong. You believe they are wrong. Just like they believe you are wrong.
Well, I don't see any other way you can take these verses, except acknowledging that Jesus alone (not works) saves us. And yes, I read these verses all in context before posting them:

"Man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." -Romans 3:28

"To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." -Romans 4:5 I am aware of the verse "faith without action is dead"...but that doesn't mean that person isn't saved, it just means their faith is not making any positive impact on others.

"If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." -Romans 11:6 Mormons will flat out tell you that they are relying on grace AND works, and this verse says that you can't do both.

I have a whole huge list of these if you want them, but I don't want to make this post too long. I love Mormons as people, but completely disagree with them and do not consider them Christians. I am not judging how much faith they have. They flat out tell you how much faith they have/what they have faith in, and you can line that up with the bible to figure out that it means they aren't saved.

Quote:
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Poor analogy because Satan is not demonstrably real.
Well, according to the bible, Satan is real. And the whole point of my post is that the bible says that being a Christian is more than just believing that Jesus exists.

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Re: What do you think? - August 13th 2012, 08:55 PM

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1. He was saying this to the Romans, who were doing the same sins that they were judging other people for. While I do mess up and sin sometimes, I am not doing the same things that I am judging Mormons for doing. When someone else is doing a sin that I also do, I fix my own sin before correcting them- just like the verse in Matthew 7 tells us to.

2. If you read the whole chapter instead of just that verse, it is talking about judging them for things like what foods they eat and what Christian holidays they do/don't celebrate. This chapter is telling the Romans not to do that, because it is a matter of conviction and not commandment. This isn't talking about not judging them for actual sins.

3. Same as #2.
I'm not going to bother responding to these because you're giving a standardized response that I had expected. You say to look at the context while changing and adding to the context. That is, you are implying more to the text than what is actually there. Which, then would be arguable, that I am justified in stating what I said in the former post.

We can also logically assume that if a Christian is to be like Christ, then it would be wise for them not to judge. Christ said he judges no one. Thus, as it is, you should judge no one. But, regardless, I don't care to debate this, because just like every other Christian, you will modify texts to justify whatever it is you want to do. The whole debating process is utterly pointless when it comes to faith because you can't convince someone who has been indoctrinated otherwise. I'm sure Christians used the bible to justify the crusades at one point. So, it's no surprise you, and others, do the same on lesser issues.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
For numbers 4 and 5, let me ask you this: what is your definition of "judging"? Because when I say that I am judging someone, I just mean that I am acknowledging that they are doing something wrong. I don't mean to say that I am better than them or anything like that. For me, when I say I am judging someone, I just mean like this:

If the bible says "lying is a sin", and then I see someone lying, I acknowledge that they are sinning. Acknowledging that someone is wrong is not the same as condeming them (which I think is what these 2 verses are talking about).
This isn't what judging means. Also, you are condemning Mormons. You said they aren't saved. I thought that was for god to judge.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Another example: if the bible says "you must rely on Jesus alone to save you in order to be a Christian", and someone flat out tells you "I don't rely on Jesus alone to save me", it's common sense that they aren't a Christian. Is that even judging when the bible says "you must do this to be a Christian" and someone says "I didn't do that"?
The bible doesn't say you must rely on Jesus alone, and even if it did you'd have to look at the entire context with the entire message of the book as whole which largely says works are a necessity. Despite this, you are left to your own interpretive relevance. That is, if the bible stated, "you must rely on Jesus alone to save you in order to be a Christian," not everyone understand this exactly the same. Hence why there are over 35,000 Christian denominations. No one agrees on what the bible says, thus there is no way you can claim emphatically or with certainty that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation is not a Christian. I could say you are wrong about the bible and cite verses to show you that you are wrong, but you won't change your mind. Therefore, you cannot say someone is wrong, again, you can only say you disagree with their interpretation.

Despite this, it is also dependent on how you understand that Jesus alone saves. Some believe Jesus perform works in others to save them. This is still Jesus alone saving them. So, it is rather relative.

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Well, I don't see any other way you can take these verses, except acknowledging that Jesus alone (not works) saves us. And yes, I read these verses all in context before posting them:

"Man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." -Romans 3:28
This doesn't say Jesus alone saves. Nor does it say works don't save. Solely works of the law, i.e. circumcision, feasts, etc. This doesn't mean good works are unnecessary. As James so blatantly says, you need good works.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
"To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." -Romans 4:5 I am aware of the verse "faith without action is dead"...but that doesn't mean that person isn't saved, it just means their faith is not making any positive impact on others.
Where did you get that interpretation. Because I'm pretty sure that isn't recorded in the bible.

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"If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." -Romans 11:6 Mormons will flat out tell you that they are relying on grace AND works, and this verse says that you can't do both.
Titus's definition of grace is something that teaches people to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live upright godly lives. So, yeah, I'm pretty sure the mormons agree with James.

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I have a whole huge list of these if you want them, but I don't want to make this post too long. I love Mormons as people, but completely disagree with them and do not consider them Christians. I am not judging how much faith they have. They flat out tell you how much faith they have/what they have faith in, and you can line that up with the bible to figure out that it means they aren't saved.
To be honest, I don't really care to discuss any of this. It's clear that you've only reviewed your standpoint and listen to whatever someone else tells you of mormonism, and you only listen to your interpretation of a passage without looking at WHY mormons interpret it differently. If you are convinced your interpretations are entirely correct, then there is no point to even debate. Which is the case, and in that matter, I don't care to waste my time. Not to mention, I don't really find these debates worthwhile. It's like debating over the meaning of humpty dumpty.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Well, according to the bible, Satan is real. And the whole point of my post is that the bible says that being a Christian is more than just believing that Jesus exists.
No, this is just your interpretation of what the bible says. Other people who believe the bible would disagree with you.
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 14th 2012, 07:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Guile View Post
Jews in America fighting the Indians killed, some swindler finds magic tablets that no one else sees, creates religion, sex with many women.

Bullshit.

I hate Mormons.
Mormonism isn't any more off the wall than mainstream Christianity, or any other religion for that matter. Christianity just gets a pass because far more people believe it.


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Re: What do you think? - August 14th 2012, 03:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
You say to look at the context while changing and adding to the context. That is, you are implying more to the text than what is actually there. Which, then would be arguable, that I am justified in stating what I said in the former post.
What did I add to the context that isn't actually there?


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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
We can also logically assume that if a Christian is to be like Christ, then it would be wise for them not to judge. Christ said he judges no one.
As far as I know from how much of the bible I've read (at least 3/4 of it), it's God (as in the Father) who judges...and we are called to be like Him too. I mean, obviously He has the rights to do some things that we don't, but the point is that your point isn't valid for that reason.

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
This isn't what judging means. Also, you are condemning Mormons. You said they aren't saved. I thought that was for god to judge.
I'm trying to think of how to word this. If the bible says "this is how you become a Christian" and someone flat out tells you "I didn't do that, but I still call myself a Christian", then the bible is flat out telling you that that person isn't saved. It's not like Mormons are claiming that they do trust in Jesus alone to save them and I'm still saying "no, you're not saved because you're different than me". If that were the case, you would be right. But most Mormons will even tell you that they disagree with some of the bible. It's not a matter of translation, because even they (usually) admit that they think the bible isn't the full word of God. That's why they have the book of Mormon, because they don't think that the bible is enough.



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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
The bible doesn't say you must rely on Jesus alone, and even if it did you'd have to look at the entire context with the entire message of the book as whole which largely says works are a necessity. Despite this, you are left to your own interpretive relevance. That is, if the bible stated, "you must rely on Jesus alone to save you in order to be a Christian," not everyone understand this exactly the same. Hence why there are over 35,000 Christian denominations. No one agrees on what the bible says, thus there is no way you can claim emphatically or with certainty that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation is not a Christian. I could say you are wrong about the bible and cite verses to show you that you are wrong, but you won't change your mind. Therefore, you cannot say someone is wrong, again, you can only say you disagree with their interpretation.
Where do you think the bible says that works are a necessity to be saved? Not just that works are good and need to be done, but that they have to be done in order to be saved?

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
Where did you get that interpretation. Because I'm pretty sure that isn't recorded in the bible.
Two reasons. First, it's the only possible interpretation that doesn't contradict Romans 4:5. Also, the chapter that that verse is in (in James I believe?) isn't about salvation.

Also, I'm not denying that true faith will produce works. I'm just saying that the works aren't the part that save you. I do think that if you have genuine faith/salvation, it will lead/convict you to do good works. If you have "faith" and not works (or at least conviction to do works), your faith may not have been true to start with.

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Originally Posted by Of Mike and Men View Post
Titus's definition of grace is something that teaches people to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live upright godly lives. So, yeah, I'm pretty sure the mormons agree with James.
Grace definitely does teach people to live right. But the bible says that it's the grace (not the living right) that saves you. Ephesians 2:8-9 says so, and that it is only by grace/faith and not works. How else can you interpret that verse?

For example, if you take medicine to heal a disease, and the medicine also makes you hyper. It's not the hyperness that heals you, the medicine does- the hyperness is just a side effect. In the same way, the works are just a side effect of grace- but the grace (which by definition means undeserved kindness) is what actually saves. You're going to say that's just my interpretation, but again, see Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9. Plus, a million other verses that you say you don't want me to post. So, there's nothing I can really do about that. If you don't want me using the bible, I guess I'm done here.

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Re: What do you think? - August 14th 2012, 07:28 PM

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What did I add to the context that isn't actually there?
In every instance you added to the context. Otherwise, you gave your own interpretation of the passage instead of letting the passage speak for itself. For example, think of it as listening to music. If you say, "This song is good." People are likely to disagree with you. In other words, you cannot objectively say, "This song is good." It's left to an individual to hear the song and interpret the quality of it for themselves.

So, when you say, "This passage is about sin." That might not be the case. That's solely what you got out of that passage through your own interpretation. But that isn't what everyone gets out of the passage. Hence why there are over 35,000 Christian denominations. If you want an example, just within our posts, we had a different understanding of making a judgment. And this is only between two people. Now, give this to the 2 billion Christians in the world to interpret, and you're left with a mess. So, as I've been saying, your opinion or interpretation isn't necessarily the correct interpretation, and taking that stance, as you seem to of done, is rather naive. You can only say for certain that you disagree.

This then leaves us with the issue of Matthew 7. If I take what I believe to be your interpretation of the passage to be, I would say that you cannot ever take the log out of your own eye to take out the speck in your brothers, because the best you can ever come up with is an interpretation based on indoctrination. So, while you say you aren't guilty of committing the same thing as a Mormon, you in fact, are. You're just as indoctrinated. Perhaps, then, instead of making sure you're not a Mormon, you should make sure you're not indoctrinated. Which, in previously being a Christian, I can see your standardized responses and say with utmost certainty that you are.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
As far as I know from how much of the bible I've read (at least 3/4 of it), it's God (as in the Father) who judges...and we are called to be like Him too. I mean, obviously He has the rights to do some things that we don't, but the point is that your point isn't valid for that reason.
Well, if Christ is god, and Christ judges no one, we have a conflict. And if you insist that we don't, then I guess we can't say that the crusades weren't necessarily wrong, either. God torments non-Christians in hell forever, so what's so wrong about burning someone at the stake for the same?

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I'm trying to think of how to word this. If the bible says "this is how you become a Christian" and someone flat out tells you "I didn't do that, but I still call myself a Christian", then the bible is flat out telling you that that person isn't saved.
Wrong. The bible never flat out says anything. That's why there are so many conflicts within the church and so many denominations.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
That's why they have the book of Mormon, because they don't think that the bible is enough.
No one TRUTHFULLY believes the bible is enough (though I know you will claim it is -- but not even you honestly believe this). Not even the bible says the bible is enough. So, if the bible is enough, why are there commentaries on the bible explaining the bible? Why are there schools for people to study the bibe? If the bible is enough, how did the bible get organized if there is no list of books listed in the bible? If the bible is enough, why doesn't the bible claim to be enough? What bible is the right bible? How do you know? What makes your bible correct, and someone elses wrong? Why is there book wrong? Because of faith?


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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Where do you think the bible says that works are a necessity to be saved? Not just that works are good and need to be done, but that they have to be done in order to be saved?
Through out the entire thing. I don't care to explain this. I don't have the patience to debate over passages that have been debated about since the religions entire existence. If you care at all about this, just do a simple google search, or read other peoples interpretations of the bible. Don't just stick to your own indoctrination, you Mormon, you.


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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post

Grace definitely does teach people to live right. But the bible says that it's the grace (not the living right) that saves you. Ephesians 2:8-9 says so, and that it is only by grace/faith and not works. How else can you interpret that verse?
The bible is enough, correct? Well, the only definition ascribed to grace is given in Titus and it has to deal with good works. Read up on Catholicism for the explanation of Ephesians 2. You'll see there is easily a good explanation as to how works tie into Ephesians 2.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
see Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-
I've seen them. I just disagree with how you understand them.

Last edited by ThisWillDestroyYou; August 14th 2012 at 07:33 PM.
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 14th 2012, 08:04 PM

As far as Matthew 7, I do examine myself to see if I am ever indoctrined and test my beliefs against the bible regularly. When I see that I am believing something wrong, I stop and fix it. When I don't know whether or not I am believing something wrong, I stop and ask God to show me if I am and then stay quiet on the subject until I know for sure.

God the Father definitely judges people, and I don't know ifthe Son does. I know the bible says that Jesus didn't come to Earth to judge, but I don't know if that means He doesn't judge at all, or if that's just not why He came. Either way, the bible is very clear that the Father definitely judges. Also, there was a reason that I said "God has rights to do some things that we don't"- because we aren't supposed to torture people because of their sins. God clearly says in the bible "revenge is mine; I will repay".

You can try to tell me what other people believe, but don't try to tell me what I believe. I do believe that the bible (and everything in it) is enough. Am I saying that good bible commentaries and other Christian books are wrong? Not really, but they are unecessary. I usually don't read them. I do on occasion, mostly just because they organize bible passages by subject, so I can find everything that the bible says on one subjct at one time rater than skimming the whole bible to find them. The truthful commentaries and Christian books are fine, but we don't need them. As far as which bible translation is right, whichever one matches the original ones written by the original authors of the bible. So far, NASB is the closest one that I have found, though I am not claiming that it was all translated 100% perfectly. It's pretty close though, and I research original context when I read it to make sure.

Titus doesn't give a definition of grace (or, at least not in the part that you posted); it just gets into detail about things that grace does. Grace does give us good works, but that's not what grace is. But I'll re-read Titus before saying any more about it
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 14th 2012, 09:19 PM

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As far as Matthew 7, I do examine myself to see if I am ever indoctrined and test my beliefs against the bible regularly. When I see that I am believing something wrong, I stop and fix it. When I don't know whether or not I am believing something wrong, I stop and ask God to show me if I am and then stay quiet on the subject until I know for sure.
Mormons, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Jehova's Witnesses, etc. it doesn't matter the religion, so long as they believe in a deity, all have testimonies about people praying to god for guidance. Yet, they are still Mormon, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Jehova's Witness, etc. so at best god is a contradicting universalist, a liar, ignores prayers, or is inconsistent, at best. So, until god can answer prayer consistently, I wouldn't put much faith in god answering your prayer. I mean, hell, how many Protestants alone have sought god through prayer, yet have arrived at different conclusions than you! It remains, then, that you cannot ever know for certain what is truth, when it pertains to faith.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
God the Father definitely judges people, and I don't know ifthe Son does. I know the bible says that Jesus didn't come to Earth to judge, but I don't know if that means He doesn't judge at all, or if that's just not why He came. Either way, the bible is very clear that the Father definitely judges. Also, there was a reason that I said "God has rights to do some things that we don't"- because we aren't supposed to torture people because of their sins. God clearly says in the bible "revenge is mine; I will repay".
Christ told his disciples to follow his example. Christ didn't judge.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
You can try to tell me what other people believe, but don't try to tell me what I believe. I do believe that the bible (and everything in it) is enough. Am I saying that good bible commentaries and other Christian books are wrong? Not really, but they are unecessary. I usually don't read them. I do on occasion, mostly just because they organize bible passages by subject, so I can find everything that the bible says on one subjct at one time rater than skimming the whole bible to find them.
Answer my questions, and I'll change my mind about you not believing in the bible entirely. In fact, the first time anyone believe in sola scriptura was 500 years ago. The very fact that you believe that the bible is the bible is evidence you don't believe in the bible alone! The bible was organized through councils and the evolution of Christianity and the popularity of the books used amongst preachers! It was then eventually put to a vote to determine the official cannon. Thus, you have faith in people voting over what books are god's word. Not the bible. The bible didn't tell those people what books belong.

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The truthful commentaries and Christian books are fine, but we don't need them. As far as which bible translation is right, whichever one matches the original ones written by the original authors of the bible. So far, NASB is the closest one that I have found, though I am not claiming that it was all translated 100% perfectly. It's pretty close though, and I research original context when I read it to make sure.
The original context isn't needed if the bible is enough. Regardless, if you can't trust your translation 100%, then how can you ever claim to KNOW something about it? You can only have faith in it. Never a knowledge. And if it were based on knowledge, you wouldn't be a Christian because the amount of evidence historically, archaeologically, etc. against Christianity is piling up minute by minute.

If you understood about the textus receptus, the differences between Byzantine and Alexandrian, etc. you'd know that claiming the NASB is the closest to the "original authors" is an outlandish claim. And nearly impossible to be sure.

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Titus doesn't give a definition of grace (or, at least not in the part that you posted); it just gets into detail about things that grace does. Grace does give us good works, but that's not what grace is. But I'll re-read Titus before saying any more about it
Giving a definition of grace is telling what grace does. If I tell you what killing does, that gives you a definition of what killing is.
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 03:52 AM

I know you guys are against Mormons and all, but here's on scripture from the Book of Mormon:
1 Nephi 22:31 wherefore, ye need not suppose that I and my father are the only ones that have testified, and also taught them. ***Wherefore, if ye shall be obedient to the commandments, and endure to the end, ye shall be saved at the last day. And this it is. Amen.***

(pay special attention to the part in **
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 01:59 PM

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Mormons, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Jehova's Witnesses, etc. it doesn't matter the religion, so long as they believe in a deity, all have testimonies about people praying to god for guidance. Yet, they are still Mormon, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Jehova's Witness, etc. so at best god is a contradicting universalist, a liar, ignores prayers, or is inconsistent, at best. So, until god can answer prayer consistently, I wouldn't put much faith in god answering your prayer. I mean, hell, how many Protestants alone have sought god through prayer, yet have arrived at different conclusions than you! It remains, then, that you cannot ever know for certain what is truth, when it pertains to faith.
All I can say is "they're wrong", but I obviously can't really give proof, so only God can work that out with you. There's only so much that I, as a human, can do.


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Christ told his disciples to follow his example. Christ didn't judge.
Again, it depends what you mean by "judge". Christ absolutely did call out people's sins and call people "illegitemate children" (a.k.a. fake Christians). He did that several times in the bible. However, He still loved them and gave them another chance. Like the woman who was caught in adultery. Yes He let her go rather than condeming her, but He still told her to stop sinning-acknowledging that she was wrong. That's what I do.

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Answer my questions, and I'll change my mind about you not believing in the bible entirely. In fact, the first time anyone believe in sola scriptura was 500 years ago. The very fact that you believe that the bible is the bible is evidence you don't believe in the bible alone! The bible was organized through councils and the evolution of Christianity and the popularity of the books used amongst preachers! It was then eventually put to a vote to determine the official cannon. Thus, you have faith in people voting over what books are god's word. Not the bible. The bible didn't tell those people what books belong.
To answer your questions: I believe that all of the books in the bible (and only the books that are currently in our bible) are the true/complete word of God, except maybe not always translated 100% properly. I believe that the original scrolls ever written of the 66 books in the bible are the word of God. I also believe that several translations of te bible are at least very very close to the original. There are just a few little words here and there that I'm not sure about- but in the NASB bible, they will get as close as they can and then flat out tell you that there are other possible meanings of certain words, so you can research those words in the original language(s). I believe that the voting of which books went into the bible was based on the logic and seeing which books were written in the right time frame and by people who knew Jesus/His disciples/Moses/Joshua/etc. first hand. I believe that the books that were taken out were taken out because they couldn't be proven to be written by who they claimed to be, or were written by people who had no apparent affiliation with Jesus.

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Giving a definition of grace is telling what grace does. If I tell you what killing does, that gives you a definition of what killing is.
No, I mean like the medicine analogy again. Telling someone "this medicine makes you hyper" doesn't tell them what the medicine is actually meant for (healing a disease). In the same way, telling people that grace makes them act good doesn't tell them what God's grace is actually meant for (having compassion on them and saving their souls).
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 02:41 PM

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All I can say is "they're wrong", but I obviously can't really give proof, so only God can work that out with you. There's only so much that I, as a human, can do.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's perfectly okay to believe something if it gives you hope, but evidence is required if you want those somethings to have actual credibility.

Here's one of my favourite quotes, from Bertrand Russell:

"Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."


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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 03:08 PM

I already said that there is only so much a human can say and I will have to let God show them to rest. I'm not trying to "prove" anything; I'm just stating truth. If you don't believe it, I can't do anything about that except pray.
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 03:45 PM

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I already said that there is only so much a human can say and I will have to let God show them to rest. I'm not trying to "prove" anything; I'm just stating truth. If you don't believe it, I can't do anything about that except pray.
Truth requires proof and evidence. If there is no proof for X, how do we know if X is really truth?

The Bible is not sufficient evidence for the truth of the Bible. Using X to prove X is a flawed methodology. If a man was on trial in a courtroom accused of a crime, and claimed to be innocent, his lawyer would not simply throw up his hands and say, "Your Honor, the defendant says he is innocent, and I have faith that he is telling the truth, so I move that he be declared not guilty of all charges immediately." Rather, the circumstances surrounding the crime of which the defendant is accused are examined by the forensic detectives, witnesses are interviewed, and evidence is collected which may support or refute the man's claims of innocence. Merely because the defendant claims to be innocent does not therefore indicate that he actually is innocent, since he could very well be lying. The evidence, not the man's word, is key.

Once again, for something to be true there has to be supporting evidence for it. If you have no proof, then your claims are just opinions. Having faith in something is fine, but faith is belief without evidence and therefore by definition cannot be considered truth.


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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 04:52 PM

I know without faith it isn't going to make sense to you. I can tell you as much as I want how positive I am, but it's not going to do any good. I'll just pray. There's nothing I can say that will be enough for you.
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 05:01 PM

In other words, I have no proof other than my word, and I know that you won't be convinced otherwise.


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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 05:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I know without faith it isn't going to make sense to you. I can tell you as much as I want how positive I am, but it's not going to do any good. I'll just pray. There's nothing I can say that will be enough for you.
Without trying to sound rude, it doesn't matter how "positive" you feel about it, because that has absolutely no bearing on whether something is in fact true or not. Muslims are just as "positive" that the Quran is the word of Allah given to them through Mohammed the prophet as you are regarding the truth of the Bible. But pffft, you "know" that the Quran is a lie, right?


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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 05:35 PM

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Originally Posted by strangequark27 View Post

But pffft, you "know" that the Quran is a lie, right?
Right

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Originally Posted by Toz View Post
In other words, I have no proof other than my word, and I know that you won't be convinced otherwise.
Right, I can't personally convince anyone otherwise. I just have to tell the truth, and then let God work on people and their faith. If they say faith isn't enough and they need proof, that's between them and God. There's nothing I can do about that.
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 06:04 PM

Megan, there's something you should know. The colour of your username isn't really purple, it's more of a black-and-gold leopard-print. I know you can't see it, but I read a book written 1,000 years ago before Internet forums were invented that says that it's really leopard-print and I have faith that it's true. I'm not interested in hearing evidence for the real colour being purple because faith is more important than evidence. Believing in leopard-print gives me hope and something to live for, but I know you purple-people won't get it because it's too deep for you.


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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 06:11 PM

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Right
How... how can you possibly reconcile all these things in your head? How can you have this much cognitive dissonance?


You claim that the only true God is the one in the Bible, but then say that only your interpretation is the correct one. You claim to know that this God exists, and that he has identified himself to you as the Christian God, and not, for example, the Islamic God (Most people don't know that Allah literally just means God). How the hell can you know that the Quran is not correct? There is no more evidence to support the Quran than for the Bible; neither of them have empirical evidence and as such rely upon faith, as you rightly say. But then how do you reconcile that knowledge with your belief that you can know which religious text is right or not, when each rely upon faith and not evidence?


Religion is based upon faith. I can understand and respect that because it gives people hope in the afterlife, and a sense of order to things, of course that's provided those beliefs don't affect me. But to claim that you can know that your religion is the right one? That's absolute bullshit. You have faith that your religion is the true one, but the reality of the situation is that Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Shinto, etc. are all as valid as each other (not including Scientology of course), and to pretend that you've somehow been granted knowledge by God that allows you be so much more clear-sighted than the rest of us and to understand the nature of God and reality is nothing more than wilful ignorance, and shows that you aren't willing to consider that other people's points of view on religion may be just as valid as yours. Blind faith in combination with filful ignorance is the most dangerous force on our planet.


And lastly, your reading on the Bible is not objectively correct. There is no objectively correct reading of the Bible, the whole point is that it's subjective and people are, to a degree, left to make their own minds up on things. When you say "Passage X says that Jesus does not permit Y", that's incorrect, what you should be saying if you wanted to be correct is that "In my opinion in Passage X Jesus is alluding to God not permitting Y".


tl;dr religious pluralism is the shit
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 06:39 PM

I'm not going to argue about the whole faith thing, because the point of faith is that there isn't really physical evidence to argue. There's just 2 unrelated things you said that I want to reply to:

1. I do know that the word "allah" means "god". However, when Muslims say "allah", they are referring to a god that is not the God of the bible.

2. I don't claim to understand every passage in the whole bible. However, when there's a part that I'm not sure about, I don't claim to know. There are things I don't know about God, but when those things come up here, I either don't reply or I say "this is what I think but I may be wrong". I only state something as fact if I know it as fact (when I say "fact", I mean that I'm sure...I don't mean that I have physical proof).
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 06:42 PM

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However, when Muslims say "allah", they are referring to a god that is not the God of the bible.
How do you know this?
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 06:47 PM

Because I believe that Jesus is God and they don't (that's not judging- they will flat out tell you that they don't). Their god (according to their holy book and any devout muslim you ask) is a god who makes you work for your salvation by doing works/rituals and still doesn't guaruntee it. My God is a God who gives you salvation just through faith and repentence (meaning change of heart towards God) and guaruntees salvation for those people. Several other rasons, but that's the main one.
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 07:10 PM

Okay, apologies, I totally misinterpreted your post. Nothing to see here, pick up that can, citizen.
   
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Re: What do you think? - August 15th 2012, 08:54 PM

haha
   
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