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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 27th 2012, 03:54 PM

So this Christian idea that Jesus or God forgives 100% of your sins if you accept Jesus as your savior is really confusing to me. How can someone do something absolutely horrific and pay no consequence if they are Christian? Can someone please explain this to me? How can a Christian basically do anything that they want as long as they are a Christian? Now I know Christianity preaches for you to be a good person, but you really don't have to be to get into heaven, just as long as you accept Jesus as your savior. How are there zero consequences for your actions?




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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 27th 2012, 05:40 PM

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
So this Christian idea that Jesus or God forgives 100% of your sins if you accept Jesus as your savior is really confusing to me. How can someone do something absolutely horrific and pay no consequence if they are Christian? Can someone please explain this to me? How can a Christian basically do anything that they want as long as they are a Christian? Now I know Christianity preaches for you to be a good person, but you really don't have to be to get into heaven, just as long as you accept Jesus as your savior. How are there zero consequences for your actions?
That's not true. If you claim to be a Christian but continue to do awful things, more than likely, you aren't a Christian. Any Christian will tell you this, once you truly accept Jesus into your heart, doing bad things feels so wrong to you. I, for one, can't do many of the things I used to think were ok before. Do I sin? Yeah, I do...but as a Christian, you would try to avoid doing it once more. You can't be a serial killer and a Christian. Christianity would stop you from continuing.


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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 27th 2012, 06:03 PM

In most denominations, it's conditional upon genuine repentance for the sins you have committed in your lifetime alongside being a good person. The rationale behind it is that each Christian is building a relationship with God, and like any human relationship certain actions can either strengthen or weaken the relationship, or ultimately break it. If you are a good person and conduct yourself in a loving manner, ultimately you will have a strong relationship with God and that love will lead to forgiveness and hopefully Heaven. If, on the other hand, you act in a way which is contrary to being a loving person, and do so wilfully without genuine repentance, then even if you claim to be a Christian your actions will serve as a rejection of God and therefore you will exclude yourself from God's help. It's an important point and one which isn't always made clear in Christianity - the Christian God is a loving god and that love is unconditional, but we have to choose to accept it and respond in kind. Otherwise, our exclusion of that consigns us to Hell - and that's all Hell actually is, the absence of God. Not that medieval hellfire and brimstone stuff.

Hope that makes sense - it's a bit of a scant coverage of the topic but as far as I know it's broadly correct. Any queries just ask.


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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 27th 2012, 06:46 PM

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That's not true. If you claim to be a Christian but continue to do awful things, more than likely, you aren't a Christian. Any Christian will tell you this, once you truly accept Jesus into your heart, doing bad things feels so wrong to you. I, for one, can't do many of the things I used to think were ok before. Do I sin? Yeah, I do...but as a Christian, you would try to avoid doing it once more. You can't be a serial killer and a Christian. Christianity would stop you from continuing.
At what point does Christanity stop you? What are sins that would automatically make you not Christian anymore?




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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 28th 2012, 01:22 AM

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At what point does Christanity stop you? What are sins that would automatically make you not Christian anymore?
None, and that's the beauty of Christianity. God hates the sin, but loves the sinner - so if you are truly repentant and want God to be your Lord and Savior, He will forgive you of all your sins, no matter how terrible. Now, that doesn't mean you have license to go out every day and commit whatever sins you want, then come back home at the end of the day and say, "I'm sorry, God, please forgive me again!" That day-to-day behavior would indicate that you're not sincere about having God as your Lord and Savior. God knows it, and you know it. A person who calls themselves a Christian but continues to have an affair knows they are not right with God, because they are clearly rejecting God's word. Of course, someone who observes that person's contradictory behavior may end up asking the questions you just did, and understandably so! There's a difference between someone who continues to have an affair (knowing it is wrong in God's eyes and not caring), and someone who stops the affair, asks God for forgiveness, and comes clean to their husband/wife about the affair.

Sometimes, people will say that blasphemy is the one sin that cannot be forgiven. The way I understand it, "blasphemy" is rejecting God. You're telling God, "I don't want to answer to you. I want to do whatever I want, so screw you." Well, obviously, as long as you continue to have that mentality, you're not going to be able to accept God's forgiveness! Remember, when you ask for forgiveness, you're accepting God's gift to you. If you don't want that gift, then clearly, there's no way to be forgiven by God. He can't FORCE you to accept a gift you don't want.

It may help to think about things in this way: when you are a Christian, you have a relationship with God. You are not a member of the "Christianity" club, where certain sins lead to your getting kicked out of the club. Imagine that God is the perfect parent, who will always love you unconditionally, no matter what you do, as long as you're sorry and apologize. That relationship will not be broken unless you willfully turn away from that parent. Even then, that parent will continue to wait, hoping you will come back to them someday.








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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 28th 2012, 03:31 PM

Thanks Robin... But that still doesn't explain what would make you not a Christian. You mentioned committing adultery, but where is the line drawn? At what point between jay-walking and murder does god no longer accept you asking for forgiveness?




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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 28th 2012, 04:49 PM

The way I've always been able to explain it is this:

1. There are two different types of sin: Venial and mortal. Venial sins, which are the "everyday" kind of sins that are considered forgivable - they don't turn you completely away from God. Mortal sins are "deadly" sins or "grave" sin (think Mortal Combat) - things that completely turn you away from God. Things like adultery and murder. If you commit a mortal sin, should you be kicked out of the "Club"? No. Mortal sins may be harder to come back to God after, although one could argue that you'd have to be pretty far removed from God and your faith in order to commit these kinds of sin, but that doesn't mean that God won't be waiting with open arms to welcome you back home.

2. You can ask for forgiveness for both kinds of sin and they can be forgiven. BUT the big kicker is that you have to TRULY be sorry and should try harder to make things better.
With this, you can think of an elementary school student who does something to harm another student and the teacher notices and forces the student to say they're sorry. The child looks down at the floor, kicks their feet, huffs and puffs, and only says sorry because you told them to, but they don't really mean it.
When you apologize and ask forgiveness for a sin that you committed, it should be done after reflection on what you did, a sincere apology, and with an honest intent to try harder to not commit the same sin again.

God/Jesus does forgive all sins, but you really do have to promise to try harder. You can't just commit the same sin knowing you're just going to do it again and make no effort to change.

Robin, you really explained it perfectly!


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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 28th 2012, 06:06 PM

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Thanks Robin... But that still doesn't explain what would make you not a Christian. You mentioned committing adultery, but where is the line drawn? At what point between jay-walking and murder does god no longer accept you asking for forgiveness?
God does not have a limit on His ability to forgive. He is not human like us, where at some point we say, "Sorry, but I can't accept your apology. What you did was just way too bad." Jesus died on the cross for ALL our sins... not just the "lesser" sins, but EVERY sin that EVERY person will EVER commit in their lifetime. His capacity to forgive is limitless, IF we are truly sorry for what we have done and want to be right with Him again.

God does not see us as Christians. We call ourselves Christians so the rest of the world will know what we believe. I used the metaphor of God being a loving father because, when you look at your relationship with God, it really is like a father-child relationship! He teaches us how to live life in a way that will glorify Him, and we follow those teachings to the best of our abilities (not because we fear Hell, but because we love God). We are not perfect like God is, so we slip up from time to time... but if you are truly "following" God and immersed in His Word (the Bible), then it's unlikely you will commit adultery or murder, because you won't want to damage that relationship with God! If a follower of God begins to pull away and say, "I want to do my own thing, not what God wants me to do," then they are leaving themselves open to greater temptations.

When the "slip ups" are relatively small (even though ALL sin is bad), we can readily make amends, both with God and any people we might have hurt. When the "slip ups" are much greater (like adultery or murder), it takes a lot more effort to make amends. Asking for God's forgiveness is the first step. The next steps are to change your behavior (not committing adultery/murder anymore) and make amends to the people you have hurt (telling your spouse about the affair/turning yourself in to the police). If a murderer were to say, "God, I'm so sorry, please forgive me... but I don't want to go to jail, so please don't let me get caught!" then they wouldn't truly be sorry. When a person asks God for forgiveness, it needs to be completely sincere. I like Emily's example of the child who eventually says "sorry" but doesn't really mean it. God knows what's in your heart, as do you. If you are saying, "God, please forgive me," but you both know it's not sincere, then how could God possibly forgive you? He can't, not until you sincerely ask for forgiveness. The wonderful thing is that, once you are ready to sincerely ask for forgiveness, it doesn't matter what you did. You will be forgiven, because as stated earlier, Jesus died for ALL our sins!

So back to your first question: what makes a person not a Christian anymore? Again, don't think of Christians as being members of the "Christianity" club. That's just how we identify ourselves to you. GOD identifies us as His followers. If you are following God, you will slip up from time to time (because no one is perfect), but at the end of the day, you will readily be able to make things right with God. If you choose not to follow God anymore and do your own thing, then it will take more effort to make things right with God, but it is still possible to do so, because God's capacity to forgive is limitless. What it ultimately comes down to is whether you are truly repentant and want to follow God again. A person who says they're sorry, but doesn't really want to follow God with all their heart, isn't a follower of God. That person may still tell people they are a Christian, but that's not the same thing as following God.







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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 28th 2012, 08:04 PM

You can't accept Jesus as your Savior with the intent to keep living sinful. When you accept Jesus, you have to do so with a truly repentent heart (meaning a heart willing to turn to God and follow His ways). If you didn't have true repentence when you got saved, you were never truly saved to start with.

But, if you truly get saved and truly have repented, but then backslide or sin...yes, you are still saved. Is that fair? No, but the bible says that the "fair" option would be all of us going to hell to pay for our own sins....so I don't think you really want God to give you what is fair. He has given us a much-more-than-fair gift by allowing His Son to take our punishment for us. It's simply for the reason that He loves us.

I am saved and I still obey God. Granted, I mess up often, but He is continually teaching me daily how to obey Him better. I don't obey God so I'll get to Heaven; I obey Him because I love Him and it would hurt me to hurt Him. If someone truly loves God, that is the attitude they will have. Plus, if you are truly saved, His Spirit will constantly convict (not condem) you when you sin and try to lead you back on the right track. Trust me, it is miserable for a true Christian to turn away from God and sin. No they won't go to hell, but they have to constantly live with the reminder that they are disobeying God. I've done that before and lived with that conviction for several months. Trust me, it's not fun. Christians who try to go against God do not have it easy. They have to constantly live knowing that they are going against the God who loved them enough to save them. It's not easy to do.
   
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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 28th 2012, 09:05 PM

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
So this Christian idea that Jesus or God forgives 100% of your sins if you accept Jesus as your savior is really confusing to me. How can someone do something absolutely horrific and pay no consequence if they are Christian? Can someone please explain this to me? How can a Christian basically do anything that they want as long as they are a Christian? Now I know Christianity preaches for you to be a good person, but you really don't have to be to get into heaven, just as long as you accept Jesus as your savior. How are there zero consequences for your actions?
Hwo came up with the idea of sin and then who came up with the idea that Jesus can save your sins? Who's putting these ideas in our heads and why do we believe them? That's like saying Crest tooth paste makes your teeth white so you better buy Crest tooth paste. And why are white teeth so great? Why do we let other people's thoughts rule/ruin our lives?
   
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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 29th 2012, 04:59 AM

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Originally Posted by Lizzie View Post
So this Christian idea that Jesus or God forgives 100% of your sins if you accept Jesus as your savior is really confusing to me. How can someone do something absolutely horrific and pay no consequence if they are Christian? Can someone please explain this to me? How can a Christian basically do anything that they want as long as they are a Christian? Now I know Christianity preaches for you to be a good person, but you really don't have to be to get into heaven, just as long as you accept Jesus as your savior. How are there zero consequences for your actions?
Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? It reminds me of a joke:
"When I was a kid, I prayed for a bike. My mom told me that's not how things work. So instead, I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness."

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That's not true. If you claim to be a Christian but continue to do awful things, more than likely, you aren't a Christian. Any Christian will tell you this, once you truly accept Jesus into your heart, doing bad things feels so wrong to you. I, for one, can't do many of the things I used to think were ok before. Do I sin? Yeah, I do...but as a Christian, you would try to avoid doing it once more. You can't be a serial killer and a Christian. Christianity would stop you from continuing.
Seems like a no "No True Scotsman" fallacy to me. In fact, I think people would use Christianity as an excuse to do things like mass murder.

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You can't accept Jesus as your Savior with the intent to keep living sinful. When you accept Jesus, you have to do so with a truly repentent heart (meaning a heart willing to turn to God and follow His ways). If you didn't have true repentence when you got saved, you were never truly saved to start with.

But, if you truly get saved and truly have repented, but then backslide or sin...yes, you are still saved. Is that fair? No, but the bible says that the "fair" option would be all of us going to hell to pay for our own sins....so I don't think you really want God to give you what is fair. He has given us a much-more-than-fair gift by allowing His Son to take our punishment for us. It's simply for the reason that He loves us.
I'm basically ignoring the second half of your post because it is a personal experience. However, in the second half you talk about being a "true
Christian". I want this to be clear to everybody. There is no such thing as a True Christian. The way that people use the term "True Christian" on this forum is a perfect example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

ANYWAY! I disagree that repentance is what "God's ways" are. In the bible, Yahweh does some horrible things in cold blood. He personally killed more than 2,476,633 people (by the way, the devil only killed one person). I've only given the value that it actually states in the bible! I can't even imagine how much it would be if events like "the flood" were included. In the bible, god is described as a jealous god. Yes, there are some bible verses about Yahweh repenting. However, there are also verses saying that god does NOT repent, and that he's unchanging. If god wanted to prove that he was in any way doing what's "moral", he would would not kill so many innocent people, and claim that it's "justice".

The fact of the matter is, according to Christianity, Christians DO have a way to go without punishment, no matter what they do. In fact, according to the bible, they can do it in the name of god and be praised for it! Not only that, but a child that is born in the wrong part of the world would automatically be sent to hell, regardless of whether the child was a nice person or not.

Oh, and the last point you made about Jesus' sacrifice seems a little weird to me. Jesus was apparently sacrificed. He had a couple of hours worth of pain and suffering, but now he basically gets to sit by god and rule the entire universe? How is that a "sacrifice"? He basically gets the best job in the universe as a result of it. I never quite understood that.

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Hwo came up with the idea of sin and then who came up with the idea that Jesus can save your sins? Who's putting these ideas in our heads and why do we believe them? That's like saying Crest tooth paste makes your teeth white so you better buy Crest tooth paste. And why are white teeth so great? Why do we let other people's thoughts rule/ruin our lives?
Well, the whole idea is that god created this evil force called sin that all humans have, no matter what. Humans have to get rid of this sin by repenting to god's son, who is the same thing as god. If they don't do this, they won't be able to join god's club of "heaven". Also, some people believe that humans will go to hell if they don't repent to this Jesus guy (even though the idea of hell only exists in the bible SINCE the King James version of the bible came into existence).
   
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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 29th 2012, 03:25 PM

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At what point does Christanity stop you? What are sins that would automatically make you not Christian anymore?
It depends at what level your relationship with God is. Like any other relationship, some people have more commitment and others take more time. I, for one, am stopped at mostly anything considered a sin. I try to not get angry, but I do sometimes, and feel guilty. When I feel guilty, that's the spirit moving in me, telling me I should slow down. I don't lie, and I try not to be discouraging. Some Christians are at other stages, where they'd never commit adultery, but they are ok with lying all the time. As for where the line is drawn, I really don't know because I believe that's something you and the spirit know. Though you can do bad things but once you repent, you have to stop doing it for it to be a true apology.


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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 29th 2012, 03:59 PM

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In fact, I think people would use Christianity as an excuse to do things like mass murder.
And some people have done that, but have you ever seen anyone go "Wow, that man truly was a good Christian and they did God's work! Let him out!" No! Everyone can see when someone is using Christianity or any other religion (Muslim for instance) as a means to do something wrong and have religion as a scapegoat. However, TRUE CHRISTIAN (Which there are plenty of, but I will discuss this below) know not to abuse their religion. This is a gift, not a right, and we would never do something like that to disgrace our father.

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I want this to be clear to everybody. There is no such thing as a True Christian.
Coming from someone who is clearly not a Christian, it's funny that you can make such a huge accusation. Perhaps you have been around people who claim to be Christians and fall short (it happens) But I am surrounded by people who are, according to dictionary.com (pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings) So, yeah, I think there is such a thing as a person who truly believes and pertains to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Quote:
ANYWAY! I disagree that repentance is what "God's ways" are. In the bible, Yahweh does some horrible things in cold blood. He personally killed more than 2,476,633 people (by the way, the devil only killed one person).
First of all, EVERY death in the Bible, IS work of the devil. If God killed every person except Noah and his family, it was because they were filthy and immoral. Why? satan. God doesn't kill a single person without satan's hands being in the pot already. And you said the devil only killed one person, you're even wrong in that. If you read the story of Job, he kills all of Job's family. satan is in every evil action we do.

Quote:
In the bible, god is described as a jealous god. Yes, there are some bible verses about Yahweh repenting. However, there are also verses saying that god does NOT repent, and that he's unchanging. If god wanted to prove that he was in any way doing what's "moral", he would would not kill so many innocent people, and claim that it's "justice".
God doesn't kill innocent people for justice. Innocent people who die, are usually there to serve a greater purpose. Perhaps they bring someone to salvation. Perhaps their death creates a revolution in rights (we've seen this happen many times) God is unchanging. Regret doesn't change the fiber of your being. That's merely an emotion and God has been known for having many emotions.

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The fact of the matter is, according to Christianity, Christians DO have a way to go without punishment, no matter what they do.
Very True. Christians do have a way to go without punishment, but the keyword again, is Christians. True Christians try their hardest to never do wrong in the eyes of God. We fail many times, but that doesn't mean we go around breaking the law and asking for forgiveness after committing the crime. These things we call sins, which we beat ourselves over, are the things that non-believer feel are fine. We ask for forgiveness for not waiting until marriage to have sex. For drinking alcohol to the point where we were a drunk mess. For using the Lord's name in vain. Are these the things that we are getting off so easily from, that you find are unjust? Because for most Christians, these are the things that are bothering us. Not some hidden skeleton in the closet.

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In fact, according to the bible, they can do it in the name of god and be praised for it!
You sure think you know a lot about Christianity for being someone who doesn't practice it. If you ever read those verses pertaining to 'in the name of Jesus Christ' you will see that he is talking about our obstacles, not using it as some magic genie lamp. For example, I will let you know what I've heard his name being used for the most. "In the name of Jesus Christ, I declare healing on my fellow sister/brother, Amen." So seriously, research before you make false accusations to someone who is confused about Christianity. If your accusations had merit, I wouldn't be offended nor trying to debate you.

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Not only that, but a child that is born in the wrong part of the world would automatically be sent to hell, regardless of whether the child was a nice person or not.
First of all, you're wrong. But I also want to point out, nice isn't what gets you into heaven. Anyhow, you're wrong because God doesn't hold anyone who doesn't know of him accountable. And guess what? Us true Christians, are doing ALL we can, to go to those areas and teach them. And unlike Americans and more civilized countries, these kids take the truth to heart and are joyful. Why do you think that despite feminine, disease, and poverty, these kids still find joy in life.

Quote:
Oh, and the last point you made about Jesus' sacrifice seems a little weird to me. Jesus was apparently sacrificed. He had a couple of hours worth of pain and suffering, but now he basically gets to sit by god and rule the entire universe? How is that a "sacrifice"? He basically gets the best job in the universe as a result of it. I never quite understood that.
Are you kidding? I wonder if you went through the same type of pain, would you think it not a sacrifice. But guess what? It was a sacrifice because he could have lived a long, perfect life...but instead, he gave his life for our sins...hence the sacrifice. The rewards that come after don't diminish the magnitude of the sacrifice.

Believe what you will...but don't go around claiming you know Christianity or true Christians because you think you've read about it. Until you've lived it, you will never truly know anything.


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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 29th 2012, 05:02 PM

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
ANYWAY! I disagree that repentance is what "God's ways" are. In the bible, Yahweh does some horrible things in cold blood. He personally killed more than 2,476,633 people (by the way, the devil only killed one person). I've only given the value that it actually states in the bible! I can't even imagine how much it would be if events like "the flood" were included. In the bible, god is described as a jealous god. Yes, there are some bible verses about Yahweh repenting. However, there are also verses saying that god does NOT repent, and that he's unchanging. If god wanted to prove that he was in any way doing what's "moral", he would would not kill so many innocent people, and claim that it's "justice".
Oh, when I said to go "God's way", I meant the way that God tells us to go.

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
a child that is born in the wrong part of the world would automatically be sent to hell, regardless of whether the child was a nice person or not.
As said in my first post, the fair punishment for all humans would be all of us going to hell. God didn't have to give any of us more than that if He didn't want to, and it still would have been fair. So, to say that God isn't fair is wrong- it's just that some people get what's fair and some people get more than fair. I don't know why God lets different people be born in different places and hear different things, but I trust Him with that. Plus, the bible says that nobody has excuse, because God made creation, which is proof enough of His existance. If people realized that He exists and chose to seek Him based on that, they would learn abotu salvation somehow. I posted stories of that happening (even in random 3rd world countries) in another thread. Let me see if I can find it.

I can't remember the verse, but if you Google "every man is without excuse" or something similar, it should come up. And if you disagree with that part, you're going to have to talk to God about that, because I'm just quoting Him. But if you have a serious question out of genuin curiosity, I'd be happy to answer if I can.

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
YeahOh, and the last point you made about Jesus' sacrifice seems a little weird to me. Jesus was apparently sacrificed. He had a couple of hours worth of pain and suffering, but now he basically gets to sit by god and rule the entire universe? How is that a "sacrifice"? He basically gets the best job in the universe as a result of it. I never quite understood that.
I'm not God, so I really can't tell you why Jesus' specific type of sacrifice was acceptable to cover our sins. I think it's because innocent blood had to be shed, but beyond that I don't exactly know why several hours of suffering and 2-3 days of death was enough. I just know that it was.
   
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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 30th 2012, 12:15 AM

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit
In the bible, god is described as a jealous god.
Please, please, PLEASE do your research. "Jealous" is what you see in English translations of the Bible. If you look at the original Hebrew meaning of the word, it describes God as "zealous." To be zealous is to be "ardently active, devoted, or diligent." Our God is DEVOTED, not jealous. I'm not even going to bother responding to the rest, because it is my hope that YOU will do the research, in order to educate yourself about the Bible and Christianity as a whole.







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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 31st 2012, 08:32 AM

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Originally Posted by FallingForGrace View Post
And some people have done that, but have you ever seen anyone go "Wow, that man truly was a good Christian and they did God's work! Let him out!" No! Everyone can see when someone is using Christianity or any other religion (Muslim for instance) as a means to do something wrong and have religion as a scapegoat. However, TRUE CHRISTIAN (Which there are plenty of, but I will discuss this below) know not to abuse their religion. This is a gift, not a right, and we would never do something like that to disgrace our father.
I can certainly think of quite a few cases where people have been praised for "sinful" things that they've done in the name of god. For example, doctors being murdered in abortion clinics. What happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?
However, maybe excuse was the wrong word. Justification is a better word. People do horrible things and justify it using the bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingForGrace View Post
Coming from someone who is clearly not a Christian, it's funny that you can make such a huge accusation. Perhaps you have been around people who claim to be Christians and fall short (it happens) But I am surrounded by people who are, according to dictionary.com (pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings) So, yeah, I think there is such a thing as a person who truly believes and pertains to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
First of all, I was a Christian for 18 years, and sometimes I felt like I would have died for my beliefs. Second of all, being a christian is not necessary to point out a logical fallacy. A logical fallacy is NOT the same thing as an "accusation". I don't want to explain how many things are wrong with the term "true christian" and how people have used it in this thread. It's late, and I'm getting tired. Instead, just look here. http://agnosticreview.com/notruexians.htm

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Originally Posted by FallingForGrace View Post
First of all, EVERY death in the Bible, IS work of the devil. If God killed every person except Noah and his family, it was because they were filthy and immoral. Why? satan. God doesn't kill a single person without satan's hands being in the pot already. And you said the devil only killed one person, you're even wrong in that. If you read the story of Job, he kills all of Job's family. satan is in every evil action we do.
That is a laughable claim that you have no evidence of. Seriously, you're going to claim that it's the devil's fault that god murdered more than 2 million people. Also, I've read the story of Job many times. I meant there was only one event where the devil killed anybody. Yes, you're right that the devil killed 10 people. However, you missed the entire point of what I was trying to say. How can you consider god to be loving when he has killed so many people? Also, god is supposed to be omnipotent, right? Wouldn't it make more sense for god to kill the devil, so there's no more sin? It is directly contradictory for an omnipotent god to be omnibenevolent in a world that is imperfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingForGrace View Post
God doesn't kill innocent people for justice. Innocent people who die, are usually there to serve a greater purpose. Perhaps they bring someone to salvation. Perhaps their death creates a revolution in rights (we've seen this happen many times) God is unchanging. Regret doesn't change the fiber of your being. That's merely an emotion and God has been known for having many emotions.
I'm sorry, but this is getting ridiculous.
Seriously what "greater purpose" could these event serve:
-taking more than 30000 people as booty, then sacrificing 2/3 of them to god (Numbers 31: 31-40)
-god ordering people to cut horses' hamstrings to cripple them (Joshua 11:6)
-Jesus cursing three cities because they're not impressed with his great works (Matthew 11 : 21-24)
-An angel of god killing 185 000 people

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingForGrace View Post
We fail many times, but that doesn't mean we go around breaking the law and asking for forgiveness after committing the crime. These things we call sins, which we beat ourselves over, are the things that non-believer feel are fine. We ask for forgiveness for not waiting until marriage to have sex. For drinking alcohol to the point where we were a drunk mess. For using the Lord's name in vain. Are these the things that we are getting off so easily from, that you find are unjust? Because for most Christians, these are the things that are bothering us. Not some hidden skeleton in the closet.
Eh... Essentially a pointless paragraph in my opinion. If you really want me to go through it, then fine. I'm tired though, so I'll address it later then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingForGrace View Post
You sure think you know a lot about Christianity for being someone who doesn't practice it. If you ever read those verses pertaining to 'in the name of Jesus Christ' you will see that he is talking about our obstacles, not using it as some magic genie lamp. For example, I will let you know what I've heard his name being used for the most. "In the name of Jesus Christ, I declare healing on my fellow sister/brother, Amen." So seriously, research before you make false accusations to someone who is confused about Christianity. If your accusations had merit, I wouldn't be offended nor trying to debate you.
You sure seem to know little about Christianity, for somebody that DOES practice it. Again, I was a Christian for 18 years.

If you want bible verses relating specifically to what I'm talking, I'll provide them, but since you're (falsely) assuming an argument from ignorance on my side, I don't see the point in wasting my time. Hint: Look in Leviticus.

Anyway, I don't see why you're offended by what I've said. Religion should have the same standard of criticism as other things, especially when people are claiming that it is true, without evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingForGrace View Post
First of all, you're wrong. But I also want to point out, nice isn't what gets you into heaven. Anyhow, you're wrong because God doesn't hold anyone who doesn't know of him accountable. And guess what? Us true Christians, are doing ALL we can, to go to those areas and teach them. And unlike Americans and more civilized countries, these kids take the truth to heart and are joyful. Why do you think that despite feminine, disease, and poverty, these kids still find joy in life.
First part of the paragraph: *citation needed*

Second part: the kids find joy in life because there is joy in life. Why do you think that giving them bibles is helpful, and a causative factor of their happiness? Also, I'm pretty sure they'd be happy regardless of whether they hear this "truth", if you're bringing them things. Wouldn't it make more sense to bring them better medication,more money, and food rather than waste money on bibles, and ministry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingForGrace View Post
Are you kidding? I wonder if you went through the same type of pain, would you think it not a sacrifice. But guess what? It was a sacrifice because he could have lived a long, perfect life...but instead, he gave his life for our sins...hence the sacrifice. The rewards that come after don't diminish the magnitude of the sacrifice.
The necessity of this "sacrifice" is what's weird to me. God is sacrificing Jesus (which is essentially god) to himself to remove an evil force from humans, that he created. Of course that type of torture would be horrible, but it's not necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingForGrace View Post
Believe what you will...but don't go around claiming you know Christianity or true Christians because you think you've read about it. Until you've lived it, you will never truly know anything.
*sigh* I'm going to get tired of saying this. I was a Christian for 18 years. I DID live it. However, you don't HAVE to live it to understand that most of the bible is disgusting and vile. It's not "the good book". I wouldn't even say it's "a good book". The fact that we're giving it to children is even more horrifying. The fact that people are justifying the atrocities in the bible by discussing "historical context" and some sort of "master plan", is just appalling! These atrocities will ALWAYS be vile atrocities, regardless of historical context.

Also, PLEASE look up the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Learn to understand it, because you've used it at least 3 times.

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Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
Oh, when I said to go "God's way", I meant the way that God tells us to go.
Not relevant to the supposed nature of god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan1 View Post
I'm not God, so I really can't tell you why Jesus' specific type of sacrifice was acceptable to cover our sins. I think it's because innocent blood had to be shed, but beyond that I don't exactly know why several hours of suffering and 2-3 days of death was enough. I just know that it was.
The story is absolutely repulsive in the first place. Surely an omnipotent god could have had a better way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSY View Post

Please, please, PLEASE do your research. "Jealous" is what you see in English translations of the Bible. If you look at the original Hebrew meaning of the word, it describes God as "zealous." To be zealous is to be "ardently active, devoted, or diligent." Our God is DEVOTED, not jealous. I'm not even going to bother responding to the rest, because it is my hope that YOU will do the research, in order to educate yourself about the Bible and Christianity as a whole.
*sigh* I was a Christian for 18 years. I read the bible. My bible was wearing out in certain places, because of the verses I liked. While it appears that you're right about god being "zealous", it's not relevant. There are numerous contradictions, atrocities, fallacies, exaggerations, historical inaccuracies, and just plain stupid things in the bible. While I may not have read the entire bible cover to cover, I'm sure I've heard the majority of bible verses in my lifetime.

Yes, I'm a little bit rusty when it comes to the bible, but I don't see any places where I've been blatantly wrong. I guess sometimes, I am a little iffy on the details, right now.

I think it is apparent that some of the people that are the LEAST educated about the bible (at least from my experience), are Christians.

Oh, and being unaware of the original definition of a word that's been translated, and re-translated multiple times is NOT being uneducated about the bible/Christianity. It's just being ignorant about the original context of a single word.

___________

Anyway, about the original topic, I don't think people should worry about sin. Instead, they should just worry about doing what's moral instead. It IS important to make the distinction.
   
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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 31st 2012, 01:16 PM

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
Wouldn't it make more sense to bring them better medication,more money, and food rather than waste money on bibles, and ministry?
This is the only thing out of everything you posted that I really feel the need to reply to. With the rest of it, you seem to already understand the bible and just deny it's truth, so I'm not going to reply to those parts...because I'm here to inform people, not to argue with someone who has already been informed. Again, if there's ever anything you truly don't know and want to know, feel free to ask me. But otherwise, this one part that I quoted is all I want to reply to, even though it wasn't directed at me, because it's the one part that you seem to honestly not understand.

Giving people just their Earthly needs and not their eternal needs is like treating a splinter in somebody's hand while they are dying of cancer. Yes, it will make them more comfortable to not have the splinter...but meanwhile, you are ignoring the major thing inside of them that is killing them. It's more important that someone has eternal life than that they have a more comfortable temporary life on Earth. Now, of course we should help BOTH their spiritual needs AND their physical needs if we can...but we need to make sure they aren't going to go to hell before we make sure that they are comfortable enough in this temporary little life.

I know this doesn't matter to you if you don't believe in eternal salvation anyways- but for those of us who do know that we need salvation, this is why we tend to do ministry before other charity. Again though, it is important to do both.
   
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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 31st 2012, 03:29 PM

Holy Hannah Montana! This thread is a huge mess! Im going back to the original question, Yes God can forgive ALL sin. Christ paid the price for all sin. But being forgiven does not mean escaping the consequences of your sin, people still have to face the consequences.
Small example: You are a child, you knock over you mothers favorite lamp and it breaks. Do you get into trouble? Yes. Do you maybe have to pay for it (or work to pay for it)? Yes. Does your mother forgive you for breaking it? Yes. See even though you suffered the consequences you are still forgiven. And part of the reason you are forgiven is because you suffered those consequences. Same goes with God. But you have to sincerely repent to be forgiven and that includes feeling Godly sorrow. But once you have repented you will be forgiven then you also have to forgive yourself.
   
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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 31st 2012, 07:58 PM

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
I can certainly think of quite a few cases where people have been praised for "sinful" things that they've done in the name of god. For example, doctors being murdered in abortion clinics. What happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?
However, maybe excuse was the wrong word. Justification is a better word. People do horrible things and justify it using the bible.
People have done horrible things in the name of scientific theory as well (Google eugenics and the nuclear weapons tests over inhabited Pacific islands, for starters) - what, exactly, is your point? Human nature is such that people will do horrible things and then post-rationalise it using whatever is available to hand; if someone could figure out a way to post-rationalise mass murder using the National Lottery, they would do so. We are a species specialising in making excuses for our own objectionable conduct.
Also, with respect, you err in asserting that such actions as you describe and praise of therein are evidence that all of Christendom holds the same view. I can assure you with no real difficulty that this is not the case, and that if you continue to seek to assert otherwise I would be inclined to invoke Penn and Teller's catchphrase...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
First of all, I was a Christian for 18 years, and sometimes I felt like I would have died for my beliefs. Second of all, being a christian is not necessary to point out a logical fallacy. A logical fallacy is NOT the same thing as an "accusation". I don't want to explain how many things are wrong with the term "true christian" and how people have used it in this thread. It's late, and I'm getting tired. Instead, just look here. http://agnosticreview.com/notruexians.htm
With all due respect, the fact that you were a Christian for 18 years is irrelevant in gauging the merits or weight of your opinion - just as the fact that I have been a Christian for 25 years is irrelevant in my case. My opinion does not automatically trump yours simply because I have 7 years more experience of the belief system, and nor do I believe that is what you would seek to suggest. This is a rational debate, not a game of Top Trumps.

Also, the fallacy you refer to only applies where a universal claim is asserted, such as "all Christians are X" or "no Christian would do X". I cannot think of a single claim fitting either description that I have come across in the course of my faith. Asserting a fallacy applies where it does not is, itself, a fallacy.

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
That is a laughable claim that you have no evidence of. Seriously, you're going to claim that it's the devil's fault that god murdered more than 2 million people.
It's no more laughable than claiming that Satan (should he exist) is only responsible for the deaths of between 1 and 10 people, which is the counter-claim you are making by implication again without supporting evidence. If you only take the Genesis account and nothing else, for example, it could quite easily be argued that he is responsible for the deaths of every single being in creation as a result of instigating the Fall. If you apply one standard to an opponent in a debate, you should apply it to yourself as well.

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
Also, god is supposed to be omnipotent, right? Wouldn't it make more sense for god to kill the devil, so there's no more sin? It is directly contradictory for an omnipotent god to be omnibenevolent in a world that is imperfect.
The answer to such statements depends on the meanings you ascribe to "omnipotent" and "omnibenevolent", which are by no means settled within the field of philosophy of religion. Indeed, there are philosophers who have devoted significant portions of their careers arguing the toss over such words. As such, you would need to spell out on what basis you seek to define such terms if any attempt at a response is to be made.

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
If you want bible verses relating specifically to what I'm talking, I'll provide them, but since you're (falsely) assuming an argument from ignorance on my side, I don't see the point in wasting my time. Hint: Look in Leviticus.
The continued application of Leviticus to Christians is, at best, heavily disputed. Source

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
*sigh* I'm going to get tired of saying this. I was a Christian for 18 years. I DID live it. However, you don't HAVE to live it to understand that most of the bible is disgusting and vile. It's not "the good book". I wouldn't even say it's "a good book". The fact that we're giving it to children is even more horrifying. The fact that people are justifying the atrocities in the bible by discussing "historical context" and some sort of "master plan", is just appalling! These atrocities will ALWAYS be vile atrocities, regardless of historical context.
Asserting your personal opinion as objective fact is also a fallacy, I'm afraid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
Also, PLEASE look up the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Learn to understand it, because you've used it at least 3 times.
In light of my comments above regarding this fallacy, I find this somewhat ironic.

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
*sigh* I was a Christian for 18 years. I read the bible. My bible was wearing out in certain places, because of the verses I liked. While it appears that you're right about god being "zealous", it's not relevant.
I disagree, quite strongly - given your earlier claims of knowledge of the Bible, it does weaken your credibility somewhat when you assert something as fact that is subsequently demonstrated not to be thus. That isn't intended as a personal attack, I hasten to add, more an attempt to draw to your attention the importance of, to paraphrase Mark Twain, getting your facts first before you distort them.

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
Oh, and being unaware of the original definition of a word that's been translated, and re-translated multiple times is NOT being uneducated about the bible/Christianity. It's just being ignorant about the original context of a single word.
Given that context is king in any literary analysis, I feel you should probably give more weight to understanding the original context of the component words of a literary work than appears to be the case at present. The entire meaning of such works, given that they were composed in a completely different language, hinges on correct understanding of context, syntax and custom. Without such understanding, therefore, any knowledge of such works is superficial at best.


"The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." - Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

However bleak things seem, however insurmountable the darkness appears, remember that you have worth and nothing can take that away.

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If you're referring to dr2005's response, it's not complex, however, he has a way with words .
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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 31st 2012, 09:16 PM

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Originally Posted by MindBodySpirit View Post
I can certainly think of quite a few cases where people have been praised for "sinful" things that they've done in the name of god. For example, doctors being murdered in abortion clinics. What happened to "Thou shalt not kill"?
Again...those who do the act and back them up, are most likely not Christians. Just because a few agree, it doesn't define the whole group.

Quote:
First of all, I was a Christian for 18 years, and sometimes I felt like I would have died for my beliefs.
No offense, but you're only 19 and if you were a Christian since birth, there is a good portion of it that you didn't have the capability to understand it. Just because your parents are Christians or you were raised as such, you can't consider yourself a Christian. Honestly, you should have ventured out more and seen if you liked another church's teachings because I will be the first to admit, not every church teaches the way it should and not all churches teach the same.

Quote:
That is a laughable claim that you have no evidence of. Seriously, you're going to claim that it's the devil's fault that god murdered more than 2 million people. Also, I've read the story of Job many times. I meant there was only one event where the devil killed anybody. Yes, you're right that the devil killed 10 people. However, you missed the entire point of what I was trying to say.
Honestly, it's as laughable as you claiming that He killed 2 million plus people. And as laughable as stated above, that Satan only killed one person...And I promise you, it's more than ten.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but this is getting ridiculous.
Seriously what "greater purpose" could these event serve
Just because you act all appalled or say it's getting ridiculous, it doesn't make my point less valid. Besides, I can say the same about you (which I do) I didn't bother to look into the verses because I know what the Bible says and I'm not going to question his goodness nor try to persuade you. I know he had his purpose.

Quote:
Eh... Essentially a pointless paragraph in my opinion. If you really want me to go through it, then fine. I'm tired though, so I'll address it later then.
Actually, it was full of many things you could not rebuttal.

Quote:
You sure seem to know little about Christianity, for somebody that DOES practice it. Again, I was a Christian for 18 years.
Repeating what I said may be clever in other forums and hurtful for others who aren't strong in their faith, but really? Did you think that would mean anything? I said nothing that would imply I knew little of Christianity in that paragraph (or any other, but please, show me where I did if you can, please) All you did, was say exactly what I said as a means to retaliate like a small child for hurting your pride and supposed knowledge of Christianity.

Quote:
If you want bible verses relating specifically to what I'm talking, I'll provide them, but since you're (falsely) assuming an argument from ignorance on my side, I don't see the point in wasting my time. Hint: Look in Leviticus.
I don't just feel you're ignorant, but you're severely biased about the topic. I am biased to a degree, in that nothing will change my views on God, but I am not biased in the sense that I can admit our shortcomings. You can't see any good, while I can see both good and bad.

Quote:
Anyway, I don't see why you're offended by what I've said. Religion should have the same standard of criticism as other things, especially when people are claiming that it is true, without evidence.
I'm not offended per say. I am defending my father, true...but I am merely using the tone that you are using because I thought you could handle it. Criticize all you want. If it has ground, I will not correct you. For example: Many priests HAVE raped children. Many churches criticize you if you are short from perfect. Many 'Christians' have done a lot of gay bashing and such. All those, are things that are wrong that I can agree with. But baseless accusations like there are no true Christians, God isn't kind, and whatever nonsense you spoke of, are going to be debated.

Quote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to bring them better medication,more money, and food rather than waste money on bibles, and ministry?
This only further proves the ignorance. Ministries don't just go to preach. They build schools, bring food, drill wells. I, for one, send out gifts for Christmas that are not related to Christianity at all.

Quote:
The necessity of this "sacrifice" is what's weird to me. God is sacrificing Jesus (which is essentially god) to himself to remove an evil force from humans, that he created. Of course that type of torture would be horrible, but it's not necessary.
I agree, I would have rathered a different punishment. But God's ways are so different than ours. I don't know why a perfect man had to die.

Quote:
*sigh* I'm going to get tired of saying this. I was a Christian for 18 years. I DID live it. However, you don't HAVE to live it to understand that most of the bible is disgusting and vile..
Again, your birth til adulthood, is hardly considered being a Christian if all you were was a bystander who the moment he could tell his parents 'I wont go anymore', did just that. You DO have to give it a REAL chance on your own and actually LIVE it, to understand it. I can read up on being gay or where gays go and whatever, but until I am with another woman, I will never understand what being gay is about. And even more, until I feel the urge to be with a woman, I wont know.

I do know what the No true Scotman Fallacy is, however, knowing a fancy little term isn't going to stop me from saying what I'm saying and how I was going to say it, especially what I know to be true about the type of people my beliefs promote us to be. So there you go. Having a technical term for what I say, doesn't make it less true. With that being said, I'm not going to continue arguing or debating (call it what you will) with you, over something you're mostly misinformed about. Do you know some about the Bible? Yeah, but that doesn't mean you understand the concept. It's okay though, it's hard to understand and many don't...even some claiming to be Christians. (Which is why people do horrible things in the name of God, because they don't understand it.)


No matter what, I am here for you.

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Re: Jesus forgives 100% of sins? - October 31st 2012, 09:27 PM

While all of this is very interesting to read, the conversation is WAY off-topic at this point. Perhaps it would be better if all of this was continued via PM, so that other members can stick to answering Lizzie's original question(s).






   
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