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Religion and Spirituality, Science and Philosophy Use this forum to discuss what you believe in. This is a place where everyone may share their views freely.

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  (#1 (permalink)) Old
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Thumbs down heaven and hell make NO sense - March 21st 2013, 01:46 AM

I don't understand the concepts of heaven and hell, because hell is suppose to be punishment and heaven is suppose to be reward, but i believe these two things are extremely subjective. heaven could feel like punishment to some, hell could feel like reward for some people who are into sadism, etc. tell me your thoughts on this, if you believe in heaven and hell (i'm agnostic so i cant say i do or i don't)


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 21st 2013, 05:07 AM

I believe in Heaven and Hell, but I think 99.9% of people go to heaven and only people who do REALLY bad things ( eg. murder and sex crimes) go to Hell


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 21st 2013, 09:02 AM

Honestly, I don't believe in heaven or hell. In my opinion, after we die, that's it we die, it's done. There's no paradise or eternal suffering awaiting you after. I mean perhaps, and this is a very far fetched idea for me, but maybe there's some kind of different dimension our souls enter, but it's isn't a heaven or hell, instead think purgatory, just a world full of us lost souls, who have left our physical body but continue on with life in a way of sorts. But as I said, for me, although much more believable than heaven and hell, it's still pretty far out there as an idea over all.


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 21st 2013, 11:53 AM

Personally I agree. The concepts of Heaven and Hell are sugjective and who goes where hugely depends what you believe in.
In Greek polytheism/mytholoy "Hell" is Hades which is just the after life and its not bad perse... I'm a bit out of touch there so I don't know how that works. Judaism doesn't even have a hell... and so on...
But by many Christian standards I am going to hell right off the bat for being an atheist and for having done things like pre-marital sex, use drugs and I 100% support homosexuality and other such supposed sins without asking for forgiveness because I don't think any of those are sins, but other people would.... I think that there are things that would get a person into heaven or hell and so many peoples determination is based off their own values and some people are highly selective (ex. you have to follow their idea right/wrong to a T) and they don't consider that other peoples values even if they're different aren't deserving. I personally think the only way you wouldn't get into heaven is if you get pleasure out of killing people, but I don't believe in heaven and hell like Christians do. Generally I believe in no after life, but what else I believe in is more just like a spirit world more closely tied to aboriginal beliefs over Christian heaven/hell.




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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 21st 2013, 07:39 PM

The first thing you should know is that Heaven is not a reward for the good you've done. Heaven is an undeserved gift that you just have to accept. If Heaven were a reward, that would be bad news, because none of us are good enough to deserve it. Heaven is a perfect place for perfect things- so if we had to earn our own way there, none of us would be able to go. We all have sin in us (whether you've sinned a lot or a little, the bible says that we've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God). Our sins separate us from God and keep us from a relationship with Him. So, since we are ALL bad by God's standards, we would ALL be going to hell and forever paying the penalty for our sins. But, Jesus (perfect and sinless) came to Earth, and out of love for us, took all of our sins upon Himself. He was willingly tortured and killed to take the punishment that we deserve so we wouldn't have to. On the third day after His death, God brought Him back to life- defeating sin and setting free everyone who accepts that gift. Anyone who believes this is true and turns to Him with a truly repentant heart (not that you have to be perfect) will be saved once and for all. Heaven is no reward for anything we've done.

The bible is also clear that Heaven will feel good for everyone who goes there and hell will feel bad for everyone who goes there. The bible describes hell clearly, and it is not just a place where non-Christians sit around and have fun sinning together. It's a lake of fire that involves regret, thirst, and torture. Even if someone with a troubled mind somehow enjoys those types of pains here on Earth, this is way worse than anything on Earth. It's not possible for someone to enjoy it. It's bad beyond our imagination. The bible also clearly describes Heaven as being a place with no tears or pain or sickness, and where everyone is joyous and praising.
   
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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 21st 2013, 08:41 PM

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Originally Posted by isengard View Post
I don't understand the concepts of heaven and hell, because hell is suppose to be punishment and heaven is suppose to be reward, but i believe these two things are extremely subjective. heaven could feel like punishment to some, hell could feel like reward for some people who are into sadism, etc. tell me your thoughts on this, if you believe in heaven and hell (i'm agnostic so i cant say i do or i don't)
C.S. Lewis wrote a book called, "The Great Divorce." In it, people who live in Hell were allowed to take a bus to Heaven. When they were in Heaven, they actually ended up preferring Hell, and wanted to return. His point was that Heaven would be Hell to the unbeliever, and since god is a "loving god," he will place the unbelievers where they prefer: in Hell.

It reminds me a lot of this post.

Anyways, I think the idea of Heaven is a little redundant. When you think about eternal joy, it seems so boring. Bear with me for a second. I really like the show "Breaking Bad." Sometimes, I am like, "Wow, I wish this wasn't the last season." However, at no point am I like, "Wow, I wish this show would go on forever." Imagine if a show you loved went on forever and ever and ever and ever, oh and were not done yet, and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever... etc. There would be no point. It would get boring. People would lose interest. So, if Heaven is eternal joy all the time, it will get boring and redundant. The only reason joy is even joyous is because of suffering. If we were all hedonists, we wouldn't ever know real joy because we'd never have pain to compare it to.

There are many reasons I think the idea of Heaven and Hell make no sense, and this is just one of many. I don't think your insane for thinking that. Like, honestly, really think about it... would you really want joy FOREVER? Granted we all want to be happy, but if we never had to aspire or work towards anything, what would be the point?


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 22nd 2013, 02:38 AM

^ There's no boredom in Heaven though, so it would be different. There aren't short attention spans in Heaven like there are here. People in Heaven no longer have sinful minds, so they never lose interest in God. Revelation 21 says that in Heaven, God will make ALL things new. "All" includes our minds. Minds don't work the same there as they do here. Every second will feel as amazing as the first, forever. It's something that our minds can't really grasp until we get there.
   
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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 22nd 2013, 03:21 AM

Actually defining the concepts of "heaven" and "hell" is difficult, nevermind that their existence at all can be disputed also.

Different religions and individuals believe different things.

I think the emphasis there should be placed on "believe" though - belief rather than knowledge ends up rendering any debate pretty obsolete because no-one really agrees on what Heaven and Hell even are...


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 23rd 2013, 12:10 PM

Heaven = The Shire
Hell = Mordor
Purgatory = Isengard



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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 23rd 2013, 03:44 PM

I dont think you understand heaven and hell very well... Or maybe Im being a know it all. But I really dont think anyone would want to be a sadist once theyre just a soul... I dont think any humans do either, its just a problem they have, i think.
In my opinion, heaven would cater to everybody, while hell would destroy everyone with their worst fears. and maybe once your in heaven, youll stop caring about earthly stuff cuz its so much better up there.
   
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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 23rd 2013, 08:04 PM

Honestly, both sound like hell to me. I genuinely mean that. Heaven is just as unpleasant sounding to me as hell. Granted, I'd rather be apathetic than in pain constantly, so maybe Heaven has the upper hand. But, it's the ups and downs in life are what make life interesting and worth living. If I was always up, or always down, I wouldn't want to live.


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 23rd 2013, 08:54 PM

Holy crap, interesting topic.. I dont believe in heaven or hell... I believe that we just "resurect"... But, as i believe were not alone in this universe, i dont say you resurect as something on the planet earth... Yeah... Lol
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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 23rd 2013, 09:56 PM

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Honestly, both sound like hell to me. I genuinely mean that. Heaven is just as unpleasant sounding to me as hell. Granted, I'd rather be apathetic than in pain constantly, so maybe Heaven has the upper hand. But, it's the ups and downs in life are what make life interesting and worth living. If I was always up, or always down, I wouldn't want to live.
I like how you put this. I completely agree.


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 25th 2013, 07:19 PM

I agree that neither exists, but for a different reason. I think pain is almost universally a negative experience, so the *concept* of hell makes sense to me. However I do not believe that we possess an immortal soul. If we did, what are the chances that right now, in 2013, was the first incarnation of "you?" In other words, for the past 4.5 billion years "you" have not existed, but you do now and will continue to do so for all eternity, either in heaven or hell. I think it is far more likely that what constitutes "you" has existed for a long time, perhaps as many other life forms, and that consciousness ceases upon death as the brain is destroyed. Either the Earth really is 6000 years old, or God waited a hell of a long time to send Jesus down to save us.



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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 26th 2013, 12:09 PM

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^ There's no boredom in Heaven though, so it would be different. There aren't short attention spans in Heaven like there are here. People in Heaven no longer have sinful minds, so they never lose interest in God. Revelation 21 says that in Heaven, God will make ALL things new. "All" includes our minds. Minds don't work the same there as they do here. Every second will feel as amazing as the first, forever. It's something that our minds can't really grasp until we get there.
So it's like a celestial North Korea, where we sit around praising the creator from dawn until dusk?




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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 26th 2013, 09:48 PM

I am going to quote Tim Minchin here-
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And if anyone can show me just one example in the history of the world of a single
Spiritual or religious person who has been able to prove either logically or empirically the existence of a higher power that has any consciousness or interest in the human race or ability to punish or reward humans for their moral choices or that there is any reason - other than fear - to believe in any version of an afterlife
What he said makes sense to me. That the idea of heaven and hell has been created by humans to instill a fear in people's minds so that they do the right things in life.



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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 30th 2013, 12:53 PM

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^ There's no boredom in Heaven though, so it would be different. There aren't short attention spans in Heaven like there are here. People in Heaven no longer have sinful minds, so they never lose interest in God. Revelation 21 says that in Heaven, God will make ALL things new. "All" includes our minds. Minds don't work the same there as they do here. Every second will feel as amazing as the first, forever. It's something that our minds can't really grasp until we get there.
I think this is something that only sounds appealing if you're already a firm Christian. What value does life have if there is no sin? What use is perfection? I find the most value, the most happiness, in improving myself. In overcoming my faults, in being a better person than I thought I could be. If a god takes away all of my flaws, what is left of me? Nothing I value, at any rate. I need my pain and my weakness; without them I would have no way or reason to grow. If I would not also think like this in heaven, all that means is that what I value most of myself will have been destroyed. If that is heaven, I would sooner take oblivion. Better nothing than for a cruel mockery to wear my face for all eternity.


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - March 31st 2013, 09:16 AM

I believe that heaven is being with God, and hell is being without God. No damnation and fire and any of that, simply with God forever and without God forever. I know which one I want. Being without God's presence at all would be worse than any hellfire and brimstone.


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - April 2nd 2013, 08:09 AM

Personally, as Heaven and Hell seems only to exist in religions which espouse an omnibenevolent deity, I don't see how Hell could exist at all. If a god were omnibenevolent and omnipotent, why would they conceivably allow the existence of sin so intolerable that it would require Hell? Some would use the "free will" defence, but if a god is unwilling to act in the interest of people in all of its benevolence and complete ability to do so, they're not omnibenevolent or even a decent shade of benevolent. They're a sadist.
Needless to say, I don't actually believe in God, Heaven or Hell. But if I was religious, of believed in Yaweh in particular, I'd have troubling cognitive dissonance regarding my supposedly "omnibenevolent" deity and the existence of a place to mercilessly torture people because my god failed to intervene to prevent the evil it claims to detest in the first place.


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - April 2nd 2013, 04:17 PM

Ok. Humans have travelled and looked into space, and found a lot of interesting things, but no heaven yet.

The patterns of seismic waves travelling through the Earth's crust due to Earthquakes haven't uncovered any significant anomalies in the density of the upper mantel, lower mantel or the core, which suggests that there is no room for "Hell" down there either.

Myth busted? I hope??

By the way, I love the comment above me. So badly owned, beaten and trampled.


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - April 3rd 2013, 10:05 PM

If you were constantly exposed to fires and pain in hell eventually your nerves would become desensitised anyway.

Lol when an all-powerful, all-loving god thinks that 80 years of doing wrong (potentially without harming anyone else) means someone deserves to be punished for an infinite amount of time.




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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - April 3rd 2013, 10:32 PM

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If you were constantly exposed to fires and pain in hell eventually your nerves would become desensitised anyway.

Lol when an all-powerful, all-loving god thinks that 80 years of doing wrong (potentially without harming anyone else) means someone deserves to be punished for an infinite amount of time.
Religion is often hypocritical because it's derived from humans, who are also hypocritical. Not derived from "Gods". I mean... I personally prefer to stick to facts. People can believe whatever they want though.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - April 4th 2013, 01:07 AM

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^ There's no boredom in Heaven though, so it would be different. There aren't short attention spans in Heaven like there are here. People in Heaven no longer have sinful minds, so they never lose interest in God. Revelation 21 says that in Heaven, God will make ALL things new. "All" includes our minds. Minds don't work the same there as they do here. Every second will feel as amazing as the first, forever. It's something that our minds can't really grasp until we get there.
Firstly, there is no proof that this is true. There never will be proof.
Secondly, I agree with people above that it would get boring if everything is perfect. Think about it this way: bad things have to happen to us at times, because otherwise we wouldn't appreciate it when things go right. Not to mention, victories wouldn't be as sweet. We would likely become apathetic towards everything if everything was "perfect." I don't believe that there is a way to fix this either; I don't believe you can "fix our minds" in a way that would cause us to enjoy every single second of every single day. It's impossible. Things that are new can only be new once, so eventually that feeling would run out.
And just to add, I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I'm in a psychology class, and I've learned that our frontal cortex is what controls our personalities. So I believe that this part of our brain is what makes us, us. So once we die and our brains stop functioning, that's it, lights out.


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - April 6th 2013, 08:11 AM

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^ There's no boredom in Heaven though, so it would be different. There aren't short attention spans in Heaven like there are here. People in Heaven no longer have sinful minds, so they never lose interest in God. Revelation 21 says that in Heaven, God will make ALL things new. "All" includes our minds. Minds don't work the same there as they do here. Every second will feel as amazing as the first, forever. It's something that our minds can't really grasp until we get there.
God must have forgotten his bill of human rights at home. What you describe is a violation of the doctrine of free will. It's mind control...

And if those in heaven never have sinful minds then how come "Lucifer" rebelled against God in the first place?

I mean, look at me... I don't even know much about religion. I shouldn't even be able to debate this topic. I didn't even know until recently if "Good Friday" was a Christian tradition in Eastern Europe only, or everywhere. No insult intended, but when religion is portrayed the way you just did... it comes across as very shallow. So shallow, that even people like me who don't know much about it, can punch holes in it.


"I don't care about politics"
Then politics doesn't care about you either. Truth. You've got to make your voice heard, if you want to be listened to. But that's too logical for some people, so let me go a step further. Not making your voice heard, leaves other people free to hijack it by speaking on your behalf, even if they don't actually give a shit about you. That's politics. So, make your voice heard. That's not a quote from anywhere. That's just me.


   
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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - April 6th 2013, 02:18 PM

The bill of rights has ten stipulations. God must have been doing sloppy work that day because we've had to amend the bill of rights an additional seventeen times. So God forgot a couple of things, like...slavery. Just fucking slipped his mind...



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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - April 6th 2013, 05:06 PM

What I think is this...well...if there is a God...he's pretty fuckin' powerful. He knows his own creation. He knows about gravity because he created gravity, so when we came up with the concept of gravity...he was like..."damn, it's about time. I'm growing old over here." To him, our idea of "progress" is a comedy because our knowledge about the world is only growing by an extremely small margin. There's so much undiscovered truth out that I don't even think our human civilization will even live long enough to experience it. This dude is so fuckin' smart that he'll plan something so well done that will allow people to talk as if they know exactly what they're talking about regarding religion, when they actually know nothing. So this concept of Heaven and Hell? It's a concept that no human being can grasp. You may think you understand it, but this concept was created by a man who can do more shit than we can possibly fathom. The big bang theory? Our theories that we create could've been his plan all along. Our discoveries are just discoveries that God wanted us to find so that we could sleep at night with the illusion that we're making progress. Because what is a civilization that knows they aren't making progress? One big fuckin' mess. You think you may hate the world now, but imagine how everyone would feel if we weren't making discoveries? Our concept of life would be fucked up. And the beautiful thing? The only way you'll know is when you die, but you can't tell anyone because you're dead. People think they know everything, but they really know nothing compared to what is out there. In my mind, Heaven and Hell isn't supposed to make sense. For one thing, we can't truly grasp the concept of it, and I believe that it was God's plan all along.
   
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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - April 6th 2013, 05:33 PM

I'm a Hindu, so I believe in reincarnation and eventually, the idea of reaching moksha, where your soul is reunited with God, in simple terms. That, to me, is heaven.

I don't believe that Heaven and Hell exist as places. Heaven's a nice idea, but totally impractical. Like people have said, bliss would get boring once you've got an eternity of it, not to mention everyone has a different idea of what Heaven would be like. I also personally don't see the logic behind the idea that no human deserves heaven, but Jesus died 'for us', so we can.

And I have massive issues with Hell. I honestly can't think of someone who would deserve to suffer for eternity for what they've done in, no more than say, 100 years. Many criminals were made that way by childhood experiences, or going through pain themselves. Many are mentally ill. That doesn't excuse them on Earth obviously, but I don't believe they should be in pain forever because of a couple of deeds done here.


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - April 14th 2013, 03:52 AM

When jesus was killed he opened heaven to all that we might have eternal joy. Hell is reserved for judas the betrayer.


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Re: heaven and hell make NO sense - April 15th 2013, 12:36 PM

^ What about Trogdor the Burninator?



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