Wouldn't a truly loving god accept EVERYONE into heaven?

[Khadra]

I always thought if you were a good person, regardless of whether or not you believed in god, you should be let into heaven. But then I started thinking about it some more and I realized, wouldn't a truly loving god let everyone, including rapists and murderers, into heaven?

I guess you can't really design your own god, but it bothers me that god, if he exists as in the bible, wouldn't let everyone into heaven.

[blueraider0]

The God of the Bible is decidedly NOT all loving. In the Old Testament, the Israelites are ordered to completely slaughter several races of people, mostly Canaanites. And when they show mercy, they end up being punished.

Jesus insists you need to believe in Him to get into the Kingdom of God, even if this means abandoning your family. "It is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than it is a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." Rich people cannot enter into the Kingdom. It doesn't get much clearer than that.

As for Islam, Mohammad sets up several very clear rings of afterlife. Muslims get the highest, Jews and Christians are second highest (because they believe in the same God, but in an outdated way), and then everyone else is lowest. And then, of course, there is hell. Mohammad also bounces between preaching tolerance for everyone to exterminating everyone. He isn't very consistent.

The God of the Bible is, let us say, open to all possibilities. If you truly repent, then you will be forgiven. I don't know the specific language used in Christianity or Islam, but in Judaism it is "As though it had never occurred." So God is all loving, if you provide what God asks for. Think of it as a store owner. If you don't have the money, you can't get the item. But once you get it, you can buy it. Only, currency is Belief.

But that's the Biblical God. There are other possibilities. I would answer that, if evil is real (I'd say yes), God shouldn't accept everyone into heaven. Then what is the purpose of being good? And you can't say because you have friends and such to be on good terms, heaven lasts for eternity. I'd rather be happy there(after). And how would you feel if, after all your hard work, you lived among the clouds with a rapist? And, since it is heaven, you cannot really be mad at him. Heck, what if you're the rape victim? That would be infuriating.

I believe God is all loving, but not really in such an indiscriminate way. Simply put, if you deserve it, God will not hold any grudges. But if you don't deserve it, you won't get it. But there is always the opportunity to repent.

[Xujhan]

I completely agree with you, Kathlene. If you presume that when you're in heaven you can no longer be hurt, then there's no reason to punish anyone for what they've done.

[danni182x]

I'm not really religious so i'm not sure.
But a friend said to me that if you truley are sorry and beg to be forgived, and you are, then you'll go to heaven.

Idunno if that's right tho =P xx

[John 6:29]

God is all holy, just, uncompromising in righteousness, loving, kind, merciful, and eager to help us in our struggles.

Because God is holy, just, and righteous it is perfectly reasonable for Him to expect us to be just as righteous but because we have sinned against His Holy being it is perfectly just for Him to send us to hell. But because in His kindness He will grant mercy to those who because of His love gave us a sacrifice for our sins and will input Jesus righteousness and clean us from all our sins once we repent and believe. So yes, and if God was all loving (which He is) He would accept anyone, but you're also missing His other attributes and thus in order for Him to accept just anyone you need to repent and believe in His Son or in His righteous judgment, because He is just will damn you to hell because of your acts of disobedience against Him and by faith in Jesus Christ did not repent of your wickedness in which God cannot stand the sight of, which is why by His love He provided a sacrifice in order that in our faith and repentance He can accept us into Heaven.

2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

God sees us as we are -- wicked, not as we see us -- generally good.

[hecanandWILLchangeyou]

He WANTS to let everyone into Heaven, BUT he can't let sin into his presance so as long as people are sinful and are without Christ we are seperated from God. If you choose to die that way we will remain seperated from God forever. HOWEVER, if you truely turn away from your sins and asks forgivness before you die;then, you WILL be forgiven no matter what the sin.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by onion

God is all holy, just, uncompromising in righteousness, loving, kind, merciful, and eager to help us in our struggles.

I find that those two qualities tend to run contrary to the other.

Originally Posted by onion

Because God is holy, just, and righteous it is perfectly reasonable for Him to expect us to be just as righteous but because we have sinned against His Holy being it is perfectly just for Him to send us to hell. But because in His kindness He will grant mercy to those who because of His love gave us a sacrifice for our sins and will input Jesus righteousness and clean us from all our sins once we repent and believe.

God is flawless so it's perfectly reasonable for god to expect us to be flawless, even though we're definitely not? We're limited, we make mistakes, and we have instincts that often tell us to be selfish when our morals might dictate otherwise. Clearly we're not going to be beings of pure altruism, so expecting us to be is completely unrealistic. God either knowingly sets standards far higher than we could possibly reach, or god is exceptionally slow at pattern recognition.

Originally Posted by onion

So yes, and if God was all loving (which He is) He would accept anyone, but you're also missing His other attributes and thus in order for Him to accept just anyone you need to repent and believe in His Son or in His righteous judgment, because He is just will damn you to hell because of your acts of disobedience against Him and by faith in Jesus Christ did not repent of your wickedness in which God cannot stand the sight of, which is why by His love He provided a sacrifice in order that in our faith and repentance He can accept us into Heaven.

God sees us as we are -- wicked, not as we see us -- generally good.

Okay, so we have one of two possibilities here. Either god is capable of letting anyone into heaven and chooses not to, and so he is not all-loving. Or god would love to let everyone into heaven but is actually physically/spiritually/whatever incapable of it, in the same sense that we are incapable of breathing in a vacuum. So either god is not all-loving, or god is not all-powerful, or god does actually let everyone into heaven. Which is it?

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

I find that those two qualities tend to run contrary to the other.



God is flawless so it's perfectly reasonable for god to expect us to be flawless, even though we're definitely not? We're limited, we make mistakes, and we have instincts that often tell us to be selfish when our morals might dictate otherwise. Clearly we're not going to be beings of pure altruism, so expecting us to be is completely unrealistic. God either knowingly sets standards far higher than we could possibly reach, or god is exceptionally slow at pattern recognition.



Okay, so we have one of two possibilities here. Either god is capable of letting anyone into heaven and chooses not to, and so he is not all-loving. Or god would love to let everyone into heaven but is actually physically/spiritually/whatever incapable of it, in the same sense that we are incapable of breathing in a vacuum. So either god is not all-loving, or god is not all-powerful, or god does actually let everyone into heaven. Which is it?

God says cursed is the one who forgives the unrighteous. Therefore you need to be righteous in ordered to be forgiven. So through His love He provided the forgiveness and the inputed to allow you into Heaven by His power He gave the means necessary by His Son to allow you into His sight, because when you repent and trust in the sufficiency of Christ you are not only justified but declared righteous in the sight of God. He wishes for YOU to come to repentance but will not force you BUT if you do not repent He will GIVE you OVER to Hell because you desire lawlessness more than righteousness. Hell is the result of lawlessness and Heaven is the result of righteousness granted by faith which produces repentance, Hell is where God is not, Heaven is where God is. It's you're choice, God wishes you to repent but if you don't he will give you over. Hence your free will.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by onion

God says cursed is the one who forgives the unrighteous. Therefore you need to be righteous in ordered to be forgiven. So through His love He provided the forgiveness and the inputed to allow you into Heaven by His power He gave the means necessary by His Son to allow you into His sight, because when you repent and trust in the sufficiency of Christ you are not only justified but declared righteous in the sight of God. He wishes for YOU to come to repentance but will not force you BUT if you do not repent He will GIVE you OVER to Hell because you desire lawlessness more than righteousness. Hell is the result of lawlessness and Heaven is the result of righteousness granted by faith which produces repentance, Hell is where God is not, Heaven is where God is. It's you're choice, God wishes you to repent but if you don't he will give you over. Hence your free will.

So god is not all-loving. Got it.

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

So god is not all-loving. Got it.

Like I said. God is not only consistent of love. It's like saying "water is all oxygen." The Bible does not say that God is all-loving it says that His loving kindness is everlasting and that God is love. If God is love and none of us can fathom all of what God is than obviously we do not understand love to it's fullest. God wishes for you to come to repentance and can forgive you by His love once you trust in the sacrifice He made for you. Love does not just consist of solely forgiveness though because God is love He provided the sacrifice needed for forgiveness in order that we may come to Him.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for us to stand before God because of indwelling sin. The sight of it is so awful and we cannot stand in Gods presence because of how Holy and Righteous He is. Therefore because God is all powerful He provided the means for us to be able to come to Him and it is by His loving sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ who lived a perfect and blameless life ON YOUR BEHALF in order that you may be forgiven and have an inputted righteousness of Christ which is not your own.

As I've stated before God IS love. But God is also righteous and just and to not give people over to hell would not be righteous or just because they have not sought after God in repentance of their idols and sin or put their faith in Christ.

ALSO if you desire lawlessness as opposed to the righteousness of God, God will GIVE you over to lawlessness because you desire it more than Him and He does this unwillingly but out of His love because of your free will to rebel against Him. Therefore technically, YES he is all loving because He is giving you what you want. HE wishes all to come to repentance because of His infinite LOVE but to force you to repent would be unloving and unrighteous and unjust ALL attributes of GOD, therefore because you desire HELL over GOD He will give you over to the pit of destruction if you remain unrepentant.

[MadPoet]

It's often times hard for me to decide what I believe, but it seems to me like going to Heaven is something that you have to earn. It's like everything else in life, you have to work for the things that you want. The people who worked their hardest to be worthy of God's love are more worthy of going to Heaven then someone who's committed murder and repeatedly denied God's existence. That being said, though, I do believe God will give you a second chance. While he may not immediately give you eternal life in Heaven because of past sins, I do think he will allow you a second chance to prove yourself worthy of his love, maybe in a place such as purgatory.

God is all loving. But if you don't accept God's love, and you abuse the free will that he's given you, do you really deserve it? If you decide you don't want God (you decide this by denying him, hurting his other children, etc) then God accepts your wishes - and you don't get God. And you denied him.... so wasn't that your decision? If you look at it this why, God is only giving you what it is you were asking for. He IS being all loving - he's accepting and giving you what you believe in.

I always found it funny that so many atheists and agnostics repeatedly deny that God exists, yet they constantly wonder why 'God' wouldn't let sinners into Heaven. They wonder why a God would be so hateful as to deny them entrance into Heaven. But so many of these same atheists don't believe there is a Heaven - don't even want there to be a Heaven, because if there were, that would mean their beliefs were incorrect. So why does the Christian belief that they won't be given permission to eternal life bother them so much? If according to them... there's no Heaven anyways?

[Leo]

Originally Posted by blueraider0

"It is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than it is a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." Rich people cannot enter into the Kingdom. It doesn't get much clearer than that.

The degree to which u misrepresented that statement is amusing. It doesnt mean that rich people can't get into the Kingdom of God. If you read the story that goes along with that statement you would understand.

I completely agree with you, Kathlene. If you presume that when you're in heaven you can no longer be hurt, then there's no reason to punish anyone for what they've done.

So your saying people shouldnt be help responsible for thier actions?

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by Concrete Girl

It's often times hard for me to decide what I believe, but it seems to me like going to Heaven is something that you have to earn. It's like everything else in life, you have to work for the things that you want. The people who worked their hardest to be worthy of God's love are more worthy of going to Heaven then someone who's committed murder and repeatedly denied God's existence. That being said, though, I do believe God will give you a second chance. While he may not immediately give you eternal life in Heaven because of past sins, I do think he will allow you a second chance to prove yourself worthy of his love, maybe in a place such as purgatory.

God is all loving. But if you don't accept God's love, and you abuse the free will that he's given you, do you really deserve it? If you decide you don't want God (you decide this by denying him, hurting his other children, etc) then God accepts your wishes - and you don't get God. And you denied him.... so wasn't that your decision? If you look at it this why, God is only giving you what it is you were asking for. He IS being all loving - he's accepting and giving you what you believe in.

I always found it funny that so many atheists and agnostics repeatedly deny that God exists, yet they constantly wonder why 'God' wouldn't let sinners into Heaven. They wonder why a God would be so hateful as to deny them entrance into Heaven. But so many of these same atheists don't believe there is a Heaven - don't even want there to be a Heaven, because if there were, that would mean their beliefs were incorrect. So why does the Christian belief that they won't be given permission to eternal life bother them so much? If according to them... there's no Heaven anyways?

If you are speaking to the God of the Bible -- works are excluded...

Romans 11:6
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

We all have sinned against God and no one is more guilty than the other. The Bible says whoever keeps the law but stumbles at one point is guilty of breaking all of the law. Therefore we have all sinned against a Holy and Just God and unless we put our faith in Christ and because of our faith repent of our sins, we will not be saved. You do not "earn" salvation it is a gift of God's grace. Yet it is not ONLY hell that He is freeing us from, but the indwelling sin within our bodies so that we no longer are slaves to our sin.

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"

Titus 3:5
"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"

It is a gift that that is inputed into us by faith in His Son. God created everything for His glory, and made the message for salvation revolving around His grace so that He gets glory and that we do not brag about what we did for God but what He did for us. The whole plan of salvation was in His foreknowledge so that for eternity people can see the grace of God and how merciful and loving He was towards sinners. Yet it is still our choice to follow Him or deny Him.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by wobbrocker

So your saying people shouldnt be help responsible for thier actions?

On earth, absolutely. If someone is not held responsible for doing something harmful then there is nothing preventing them from doing it in heaven. In heaven, presumably, it's impossible to harm another person. Otherwise, why call it heaven? So given that no one can cause harm, what reason is there for punishing someone other than to slake a thirst for vengeance?

To Concrete Girl: I can't speak for other atheists, but I join in the debate because I find it interesting. I think that there is no god or afterlife, but I also hope that if I'm wrong and there is, that god is kind and loving and, if he judges people at all, does so on he merits of their life. The god that onion professes, which is the god I normally end up arguing against, is decidedly otherwise.

Think about it this way. You know someone who constantly disagrees with you. Then on one occasion, it turns out that, where you normally disagree, they're forced to admit were wrong. Would you be graceful about it, or would you rub it in and be as spiteful as possible about it? I think most people would say the first, and I'd hope that god acts similarly.

[Invert]

I'll admit, I only briefly skimmed after the first post.

I really am unsure the Bible ever claims God is 'all loving', not to mention as a righteous God, he should punish those who deserve it. But we all deserve it. He actually probably shouldnt be letting anyone off. But that's a different argument.

Nonetheless, there's one thing I've heard once, which I find quite an interesting idea, about God as all loving. An all loving God can not force his love upon someone who doesn't want it/rejects it, and remain all loving. Basically in order to be loving to that individual, he has to let them go, out of his love.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by Invert

I'll admit, I only briefly skimmed after the first post.

I really am unsure the Bible ever claims God is 'all loving', not to mention as a righteous God, he should punish those who deserve it. But we all deserve it. He actually probably shouldnt be letting anyone off. But that's a different argument.

Nonetheless, there's one thing I've heard once, which I find quite an interesting idea, about God as all loving. An all loving God can not force his love upon someone who doesn't want it/rejects it, and remain all loving. Basically in order to be loving to that individual, he has to let them go, out of his love.

That's a reasonable argument to make. I think to that I'd say that an all-loving god would accept everyone into heaven, but that anyone would be free to choose not to enter, or would be free to leave if they did.

[Invert]

a) Heaven is only a temporary thing. B) we all deserve to be righteous judged by God. The fact he gave grace as a easy method of salvation is him being loving.

Pretty much I agree with what Onion said in his first post. But, from some of the ways you talk about terms, I'm assuming most your Biblical knowledge is from media Christians? Like this idea of 'all-loving' and 'all-powerful'... they are generally misunderstood, with our personal, cultural or desired meanings. God is all powerful in the sense of he can do anything. He is just, and righteous, so he will punish. But as he is a loving God, he gave a path to salvation.

To me, Hell is complete seperation from God.

Also, why should people get the choice after death? After rejecting God their whole lives. Why should they just be automatically forgiven. I mean, we can argue till we are blue in the face over pragmatics, or what God can do.... but people rarely give real reason why he should have to. According to who should he? As much as we like to think it, I don't think its our rule to make. Human morality particularly is pretty subjective, and pretty changing. And throughout history, you'd have totally different cultural views of whats right or wrong. So why do you think God should be required to let people into paradise, at all, including letting in 'the saved'?

Assuming for a second if there was a God, the God of the Christian Bible, then his morality, as we are his creations, and the concept of morality is his creation too... and he has the power, then there isn't much way to suggest that your personal development of morality is superior to his. But you seem to map out your very snap shot morality (because its pretty much from a small period of time) into the entire way you view Christianity, even if it's beyond and/or seperate from that.

I'm sorry but it's 3am, and this is the most coherant I can be.

[Xujhan]

Okay, back to more usual topics of debate in these parts. If I read you right, you mean that god is the ultimate source of morality simply by virtue of having created us? Does then mean that god could decree that it is morally good, say, to kill anyone who insults you?

As for why god should do anything, that depends on your view of god. If god is just the creator of the universe and has long since moved on to more interesting things, that's one thing. But I think it's safe to assume for the context of this thread we're talking about a generally Christian personal god.

Here's where I think Christianity differs in thinking from a lot of atheists. Certainly to me, and to many of the people I've talked to, justice and righteousness are about protection and equality, and have nothing to do with punishment. As I've argued before, I think that punishment is only something that is necessary in society to keep the innocent from being harmed. Ideally - and if god and heaven aren't the ideal environment, I don't know what would be - punishment should be completely unnecessary.

Personally, I find that a god who created humanity and continues to judge people by the standards argued by you and onion is pretty damningly cruel. At that point, it's not even a scientific question for me; it's a moral one. I don't believe such a god exists, and even were he to, I would want nothing to do with him. As for suggesting that "my morality" - more accurately the morality I agree with - is superior to his, that's exactly what I'm doing. I can provide logical and moral reasoning for why I believe what I believe and, provided I do a decent job, it will stand on its own without having to invoke a higher authority to validation. Any argument that revolves entirely around "because god says so" lacks that strength.

[Invert]

Yeah, but Christianity isn't going to make sense outside of the framework of Christianity. Ok, What I meant about the morality thing was worded badly, and I'm in no place to improve it right now. I'm not trying to convert you. I see the problems you are arguing, I've thought about them before, other wise I'd be moronic. At the same time, I think I view life from an overall general sense.

Though I must say, my standards aren't particularly high. Faith, nothing to do with good works? Compared to most religious people, I think I'm pretty laid back. Not to mention I believe in an age of innocence, and I believe if situations arise where if would be unjust for good to act against someone, that he wouldn't.

If you honestly think the standards I believe in are cruel... ok... I mean, without going into too much detail, because I don't want to start an argument with onion on here, but there's a possibility to look at the issue of either eternal life, or death, so perhaps just an end. A ceasing. Which is what you want anyway, isn't it? Because most people, I don't think, actually want immorality. The Jews don't have a hell. But this is slightly off topic, as this is about going to heaven, not hell. Though, just curious. If this was the case, would it bother you so much?

[Xujhan]

The only thing here that actually bothers me is the idea that all humans are inherently evil and deserve nothing but punishment, which I'm pretty sure is just onion, not you. Past that, this is just a very interesting philosophical debate to me. It's giving me practice for finals next month, if nothing else.

It was mostly what you said about rejecting god that I was responding to. Presumably god knows more or less how each of us ticks. I think most atheists will tell you that they couldn't honestly believe in a god even if they wanted to. I certainly know I couldn't. And to be denied acceptance in heaven for that and nothing else, to me just feels a lot like the spite of a playground bully. "You didn't believe in me so no afterlife for you, nyah nyah." That make any sense?

[Invert]

If I had a choice, I think I'd not want an afterlife. Personally.

Also, rejecting God I think is often used by religious folks in a 'awkward' way. As in, it doesn't even have to be an active conscious 'I am rejecting you God', it often I think refers to something deeper, where there's something below the surface to decide you don't have a God. Like the idea of 'the hardened heart'. But then there's lots of issues that can probably be discussed around that. But they are very similar issues to other non-religious discussions about what is 'the self' and what is 'consciousness', and is this multifaceted, and where would you draw the line to argue rejection must be explicit. Neither of which I can answer in a way that would probably satisfy. And it's going off topic.

Basically although I do totally believe you haveN'T consciously choosen not to believe in a God, Christian folk still use the word 'reject' when someone hears the word, and doesn't except. But I think it's used quite abstractly.

And I also think that we can't really see eye to eye on what people are and aren't being let into heaven over. I guess for example my starting place is seperation from God. That's where I see people, and then you can move forward into the presense of God with the aid of Jesus, because he can take you to God, but that's not where you start. Whereas it almost seems you view as the default is Heaven, and then you lose your place in it by not doing something. And I think it will significantly effect how you view this all.

And I don't think being prone to sinning means we are all inheritantly evil, in the way I view the word evil. I think we all have potential to do good and bad things. And I think we've all definately done bad things. And really, if we are responsible for those things, we are reasonable for them. Imperfect doesn't mean evil, but it allows doesn't remove all responsibility.

Though there's a lot I could say about all this stuff from more angles, but half the time, they aren't my direct beliefs, but things I've heard that I think are worth discussing, but maybe don't know extensively.

Though I may have been a tad snappy in my last post. I get cranky when I dont sleep

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by Invert

And I don't think being prone to sinning means we are all inheritantly evil, in the way I view the word evil. I think we all have potential to do good and bad things. And I think we've all definately done bad things. And really, if we are responsible for those things, we are reasonable for them. Imperfect doesn't mean evil, but it allows doesn't remove all responsibility.

You either belong to the world and are therefore evil or you belong in the Spirit and because of your flesh no good dwells in you still other than the Spirit of God.

John 15:18-19
"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." NIV

There are two options being of the world of being of the spirit. The Spirit is Good, the world is evil. The world being anyone that is not part of Christ therefore if you are not saved you are not excluded from "the world" when the Bible mentions of it. You sinned against a HOLY God. If you killed a beetle nothing would happen, unless perhaps PETA saw. If you killed a random homeless person on the street, there would be some punishment but more than likely you would be free from jail at some point in your life. If you killed the president you would go to jail for life with no escape or you would be killed yourself. In each instance the crime is the same but the person of importance goes up therefore the punishment goes up and the sense of "wrong" goes up. We have sinned against a Holy God the creator and sustainer of everything in existence and because of this we are evil. When you stand before a judge in courtroom after killing a president you can say "well I did all these nice things, doesn't this make me a good person?" As great as the things you did, you still killed the president and therefore are viewed as a criminal. Sinners are wicked and we are all sinners no matter how good of things we may do they do not matter because we have still committed a crime against God.

John 3:19
"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil." NIV

John 7:7
"The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil." NIV


Romans 1:18-32
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." NIV



Romans 3:10-18
"As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.' 'Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.' 'The poison of vipers is on their lips.' 'Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.' 'Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.' 'There is no fear of God before their eyes.'" ESV

If you read this and you do not believe men are "evil" then examine your validty of faith because we are WICKED and WRETCHED sinners and need Gods mercy.

Romans 2:15
"since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)" NIV

These verses also claim that all know God is real and that your concious bears witness of sinning against Him, and I was not always a Christian, but I know these to be truths even before my conversion. An atheist knows there is a God but is unwilling to submit so they try anything can to disprove an existence of God while others seek God in other religions so they can follow their own laws of rigtheousness. You are unwilling to admit there is a God because you would rather die in your sin then confess that you are a wretch and need His forgiveness, the one who died on the cross to save you from your sins.

Make no mistake. You have a free choice to go to Heaven or to go to Hell and it is yours to accept by faith in Jesus sufficiency for forgiveness and repentance. And whether you like it not, in heaven or in hell, you will glorify God for all eternity and there is no escaping the reality. You may say you "choose" not to believe in God, but I know the scriptures say otherwise. You may say "well you can't use the scripture for evidence." If I wanted to prove to you I live in california, certainly you wouldn't go looking for me in Oregon, if I wanted to prove the existence of spiritual things I wouldn't go to a math book. I'd go to the source, the BIBLE.

I'm sorry for rambling on and I will be done posting on this thread after this, but there is a reason you cannot stand hearing about hell. There is a reason you cannot stand the teachings of Jesus. There is a reason you can't stand the teachings of God. Because you love your evil deeds and do not want to be accountable and you do not want your deeds to be exposed in the light. You're unwilling to admit you are evil and humble yourself before God. You have thought corrupt things in your mind, you have performed many unrighteous deeds, and you have sinned against God, man, and yourself, and for that you need forgiveness and if you do not repent you will be given over to Hell. You're eternity is at stake because of your unwillingness to repent.

God did everything for you to be able to stand before His presence and experience joy to His fullest. This isn't just an escape from Hell, but freedom from sin. You are trapped in your sin and you love your sin and think you are free, yet once you experience Christ you will know what true freedom and joy is.

I am done with this thread because it has strayed so off topic. I know this was preachy but I gain nothing for telling you this. It is all out of pure concern and if anyone wants more information please PM me. -_-

[CanadaCraig]

Hi Everyone!!

I hope you're having a super fine day.

It is important to ME that all of you KNOW that no one Christian [Necessarily] speaks for ALL Christians. Many Christians - like myself - believe that the bible is quite clear about what really happens to those of us who reject the gift of forgiveness by refusing what Christ did for us on the cross. Some say that the penalty for not believing and for not accepting that gift is to be thrown into some awful place where you will be tormented and tortured for all eternity. Many churches - over the years - have even come up with some truly horrific descriptions of what they believe will happen. I say - the idea of 'never ending torment' is NOT what the bible teaches. The wages of sin [The penalty one must be for unforgiven sin] is DEATH. It is NOT LIFE in some awful place. Now becoming dead will not be a pleasant experience. [To put it mildly] But no one will be suffering forever. What often frustrates me is when [some] Christians create their own definitions for words. 'Death' - they say - isn't REALLY 'death'. Oh no.... It merely means 'eternal separation from God'. And by that they mean - ALIVE and eternally separated from God. But I say - death MEANS death. As in to 'exist no more'.

Here is what Jesus says about the fate of the 'wicked'. [The 'unsaved'] It is from a biblical verse found in the book of Malachi. [The Bible is made up of 66 'books'] And the verse I'm about to share with you is found in the 1st verse of the 4th chapter in the book of Malachi. [Malachi was the name of the man who wrote the book]

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Those are Jesus' words!!

Interesting - don't you think?!

That all said.......

SOME Christians DO believe that everyone WILL - eventually - be welcomed into heaven. That those who reject Christ while alive [As we are alive right now] will go through [After they have died] a sort of 'cleansing process' - ridding them of their unrighteousness and sin. Although I would like for that to be true - I have YET [Emphasis on 'yet'] found anything in the bible that would suggest that. The idea certainly appeals to me. And I shall keep looking for the truths that are found in the bible. But I have to say - I think 'we have often been mislead by well intentioned [For the most part] preachers and priests and so on. So who knows what I'll end up finding in the bible. This is why - on my profile - you will see that I describe myself as, "Christian - NON RELIGIOUS". I refuse to accept something - ANYTHING - as the truth - merely because past and present day generations have done so.

My thought for the day....

If I had one wish - it would be to turn all Atheists into an Agnostics. I think it's sad when someone - anyone - closes the door on ANY possibility.

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!

[Yen]

It bothers me too that God wouldn't let every one in, but I'd be a little nervous about rapists and murderers... In terms of beliefs, I don't feel that any one should have to prove anything to God. Living a good life is what should matter. I don't care what a book, written by humans, says I have to believe in order for God to love me . I feel loved without following a Bible and if it's good enough for me, it should be good enough for you Christians (and God).

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by CanadaCraig

My thought for the day....

If I had one wish - it would be to turn all Atheists into an Agnostics. I think it's sad when someone - anyone - closes the door on ANY possibility.

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!

As I mentioned in an other thread, I think you'll find that most people who view themselves as atheists don't adamantly insist that god is impossible. Speaking only for myself, I would say that I have never found a good reason to believe that a god exists, but if such a reason were to present itself, I would certainly reconsider my stance. To me, one of the primary tenets of atheism is accepting whatever the evidence suggests to be true, or most likely. If the evidence were to point to a god, I think any reasonable atheist would accept that.

And I'm curious, does what you said mean that you also consider that god is only a possibility, or that it's possible that the bible is not the word of god? I don't mean to try to poke holes in what you're saying, but you seem to think differently than most Christians I've spoken to, so I'm curious about what you have to say.

Invert: I don't think the way you look at acceptance into heaven actually creates too much difference from a moral perspective. In that case, rather than only accepting an arbitrary group of people into heaven, god is only allowing the possibility of heaven to exist for an arbitrary group of people. For anyone outside the group - ie. atheists - the result is identical.

The best analogy I can call to mind is this: consider a company that employs a reasonably large number of workers. One day the big boss decides that he really likes white guys, so he's going to give all the white workers a $5/hour raise, and all the non-white workers get to keep their current salary. Now, everything you've said I think holds. The default is the current salary, so the non-white workers aren't losing anything. And the boss isn't obligated to give anyone a raise at all, just as god isn't obligated to let anyone into heaven. Yet I think most people would still find an issue with this, and that's similar to the objection I have with the situation regarding god and heaven.

[CanadaCraig]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

And I'm curious, does what you said mean that you also consider that god is only a possibility, or that it's possible that the bible is not the word of god? I don't mean to try to poke holes in what you're saying, but you seem to think differently than most Christians I've spoken to, so I'm curious about what you have to say.

Hi Fletcher!!

I hope you're having a groovy day!!

No - I think God is a reality. I believe very much in God and Jesus, etc. Although I DO accept the possibility that I'm wrong. For I believe that the moment someone believes that what they believe is absolute - is the moment that humility is pushed out the window. That said... what I have a problem with - what I struggle with more than anything else - is mans interpretation of the bible. I think man has [Far too often] misinterpreted what the bible says. In fact - I find it most frustrating whenever I have a question about what something says in the bible - because I'll end up with several conflicting interpretations of a single scripture. And each of these interpretations are coming from people - from Christians - who are absolutely sure that they are absolutely RIGHT.

The one thing that I hold to be the absolute truth is that we are to love God AND love our neighbours as we love ourselves. We are to treat everyone with kindness, compassion and respect. That doesn't mean that we must adopt an 'anything goes' attitude. We must - out of our love - stand up against those who are NOT loving - who are NOT being kind, etc. We must stand up - in other words - for those who are being abused and so on. But that IS love - right?!

Did I answer your question?! LOL

I think you're a great guy, Fletcher.

[I just felt like letting you know that]

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by CanadaCraig

Hi Fletcher!!

I hope you're having a groovy day!!

No - I think God is a reality. I believe very much in God and Jesus, etc. Although I DO accept the possibility that I'm wrong. For I believe that the moment someone believes that what they believe is absolute - is the moment that humility is pushed out the window. That said... what I have a problem with - what I struggle with more than anything else - is mans interpretation of the bible. I think man has [Far too often] misinterpreted what the bible says. In fact - I find it most frustrating whenever I have a question about what something says in the bible - because I'll end up with several conflicting interpretations of a single scripture. And each of these interpretations are coming from people - from Christians - who are absolutely sure that they are absolutely RIGHT.

The one thing that I hold to be the absolute truth is that we are to love God AND love our neighbours as we love ourselves. We are to treat everyone with kindness, compassion and respect. That doesn't mean that we must adopt an 'anything goes' attitude. We must - out of our love - stand up against those who are NOT loving - who are NOT being kind, etc. We must stand up - in other words - for those who are being abused and so on. But that IS love - right?!

Did I answer your question?! LOL

I think you're a great guy, Fletcher.

[I just felt like letting you know that]

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!

Yes you did, and thank-you for the kind words. I definitely think the same of you.

I agree with you that we should never say that we know - or even believe - something to absolutely be the truth. And I also agree with you about protecting those who are being abused or persecuted in any way - and for me, I'll stand by that even if it's god that's doing the persecuting. That's why I object to the notion of a god that punishes, for example, atheism (or any non-Christian religion, or homosexuality, or most anything). I don't feel that god should be a punisher. Surely a divine being with the power to create a universe can find better a solution. It's just an idea I can't bring myself to see as acceptable.

That said, I wish that more Christians (and people in general) would have attitudes like you do. I think the world might be a much better place if people honestly practiced "love thy neighbor." It's one of the few tenets of Christianity that I can absolutely get behind, and sadly it's one of the least followed.

GBH to you too Craig.

[Algernon]

Would a good father really spank his kids? Would he really yell at them and do things that mad them mad, even if it was their own good? Yes.

[Algernon]

Originally Posted by CanadaCraig

Hi Fletcher!!

I hope you're having a groovy day!!

No - I think God is a reality. I believe very much in God and Jesus, etc. Although I DO accept the possibility that I'm wrong. For I believe that the moment someone believes that what they believe is absolute - is the moment that humility is pushed out the window. That said... what I have a problem with - what I struggle with more than anything else - is mans interpretation of the bible. I think man has [Far too often] misinterpreted what the bible says. In fact - I find it most frustrating whenever I have a question about what something says in the bible - because I'll end up with several conflicting interpretations of a single scripture. And each of these interpretations are coming from people - from Christians - who are absolutely sure that they are absolutely RIGHT.

The one thing that I hold to be the absolute truth is that we are to love God AND love our neighbours as we love ourselves. We are to treat everyone with kindness, compassion and respect. That doesn't mean that we must adopt an 'anything goes' attitude. We must - out of our love - stand up against those who are NOT loving - who are NOT being kind, etc. We must stand up - in other words - for those who are being abused and so on. But that IS love - right?!

Did I answer your question?! LOL

I think you're a great guy, Fletcher.

[I just felt like letting you know that]

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!

Same here, I have an issue with mans interpretation. So often I find myself just coming back to salvation by grace and belief. Jesus.

Something that I heard recently really got me thinking. Someone I know was talking about their boyfriend getting "closer" to God through works and prayer and all that good stuff... I thought, I'm as close to God as I've always been. There's no way to get closer to God. I found it a statement of question.

[WhySoSerious?]

I agree with you Khadra, I've thought the same thing on many many occasions. If God WAS truly loving, then everyone would be allowed into heaven. My guess is that God probably either isn't all-loving, or he has the evil souls wander the earth or something to learn a lesson before allowing them into heaven in the end. This is of course, assuming that the Christian God exists at all.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

Would a good father really spank his kids? Would he really yell at them and do things that mad them mad, even if it was their own good? Yes.

Pardon me, but I fail to see how either spending eternity in hell or having my consciousness entirely destroyed is "for my own good." The only lesson that could possibly teach me is that I'm right to not worship him.

And no, personally I feel that a good father would not yell at or hit his children. Or rather, a father who did - who might be otherwise a good parent - would be better if he didn't. And unless I'm remembering my facts wrong, developmental studies have shown that hitting and yelling are not good forms of child discipline. Which, y'know, should be kind of obvious when you think about it; they're generally not good conflict resolution techniques in any situation.

[PhoenixAlive]

The way I see it, ALMOST everyone gets into heaven.

I someone is a good person, and tries to lead a good life, loves others, etc, then God will let them into heaven, regardless of their religion, sexuality, race, or anything of that nature.

I also believe that God is all-loving and he knows that people will mistakes and have lapses of bad judgment. That isn't to say that humans are inherently evil, but more along the lines of what Invert said. That we are capable of doing good and bad things, and that no-one is perfect.

So, because God knows that no-one is perfect, He will not condemn anyone just because they have sinned in their lifetime, even murderers. Even Hitler (if he was sorry). As long as someone realizes just before or even after death that they have sinned and is truly sorry for the wrongs that they've committed, they will be allowed into heaven.

Just to be clear, this does NOT include the hypocrites who know they're doing wrong, but go to church and confess their sins and think "Yay! Now I can go and do the same crap again as long as I come back and cash my get-out-of-hell-free-card like the good 'Christian' I am."

The only ones who I think will be rejected from heaven are those who have done bad things in their lives, and even after death refuse to be accountable and don't feel remorse. These people would be in agony if they were in the presence of God's love and goodness. (For Harry Potter fans, its kind of like when Voldemort tried to possess Harry in the 5th book Order of the Phoenix, and couldn't take it)

So, because God is all-loving and all-merciful, he sends these people into a state of complete separateness from Him, sparing them from the pain of facing Him, and casting them into darkness.

Does this make sense? Sorry if it doesn't. I'm trying to feed my baby daughter and type at the same time. Its more difficult than you might think. lol

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

Pardon me, but I fail to see how either spending eternity in hell or having my consciousness entirely destroyed is "for my own good." The only lesson that could possibly teach me is that I'm right to not worship him.

And no, personally I feel that a good father would not yell at or hit his children. Or rather, a father who did - who might be otherwise a good parent - would be better if he didn't. And unless I'm remembering my facts wrong, developmental studies have shown that hitting and yelling are not good forms of child discipline. Which, y'know, should be kind of obvious when you think about it; they're generally not good conflict resolution techniques in any situation.

I'm sorry I have to interject again. I'm sorry, not to offend you, but this is almost humorous to me and perhaps you will see the irony with me. It is not something you said, but rather what "developmental studies have shown."

Developmental studies show that the kids who get spanked have a lower IQ than a child who does not get spanked. Do you not see the irony?

The kid who has a lower IQ is less intelligent already and if he was behaving properly and doing what his parents asked in the first place, would not be getting disciplined. He is simply getting spanked because he was not behaving properly or performing illegitimately in school and not being diligent in his studies or whatever else you may have. True he may have something preventing him from learning but ultimately he is clearly being disciplined because he has not learned his lesson. Perhaps his parents were even abusing him, but in the case of God, He is perfect and Just and any punishment God has created for the sinners is perfectly reasonable because we have sinned against GOD. However, Could it not be a direct result because of their lower IQ that they may be getting disciplined in the first place?

A child who has a higher IQ will do what his parents require because he knows how to escape punishment and because they are more intelligent perhaps their parents aren't as upset with them therefore do not need to be disciplined *gasp*.

Going to hell is not a corrective punishment. We have had things such as the "death punishment" or people with jail punishments for 700+ years, not all punishment is corrective.

You broke and infinite Gods law and therefore requires an infinite punishment. This is Gods story and all things are for His glory, it is not our story and for our glory. He is the creator, we are His creation -- we do not tell God what is right and what is wrong because God is definite and He creates the rules, not man kind. If you've lied, if you've stolen, if you've hated, if you've lusted, if you've taken God's name in vain, if you've coveted anyone's possession you have SINNED and need forgiveness that is only capable by faith and in repentance. The law is for our good and was just saying "this place would be better if you didn't do this." Yet the law because it is spiritual and we are nonspiritual are unable to uphold the law because we are not perfect as God is perfect and whom demands perfection, the law shows us our sin and our wretchedness before God. Because we broke Gods law He is perfectly just in damning every soul to hell but instead offers forgiveness so that we can see how loving God is.

You also rejecting the cross and rejecting God do so by your freewill. You do not do so because of lack of evidence for God because the evidence is in His creation and our conscious. You have a creation -- there's a creator, and our conscious bears witness that we sinned against Him when we look at the laws of God and that we need to be restored with a right standing to God. Since you willing reject the Gospel of Christ if you remain unrepentant God will give you over into an eternity in Hell since you desire sin more than the freedom and love God offers to you freely, apart from works. And because of this in your pride, you have freely accepted your punishment which God will give you over to rather than the gospel by the admitting of your sinfulness AGAINST God.

You may refuse this saying that you refuse to give glory to God, well you will bring His glory whether in your torment in Hell for Eternity or in Heaven before His presence for eternity.

[Algernon]

Let's look at it this way. You have a paradise. And you get to choose who you let in. Now there are people that do things that aren't right in your eyes, that murder, kill, rape, and all the wrong things people do in this world. Are you going to let them in? Hell no =P

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by xHolyValorx

Let's look at it this way. You have a paradise. And you get to choose who you let in. Now there are people that do things that aren't right in your eyes, that murder, kill, rape, and all the wrong things people do in this world. Are you going to let them in? Hell no =P

If there's easily space for them and they're incapable of doing any more harm? Hell yes I'd let them in. If there's no consequence to anyone else, I'd always rather see a person happy, no matter who they are or what they've done.

Onion! Wondering when you'd show up:

I'm only quoting directly from my psychology course here, and I don't make any claim to be an expert on the subject. And it's only a metaphor Holly brought up in the first place, so I don't think it needs too much expanding upon. But essentially every source I've read says that in the vast majority of cases, authoritative parenting is better than authoritarian. Hitting and yelling pretty definitely fall into the latter category. If you want more debate than that on this topic, it probably deserves its own thread.

Excuse though for a moment while I savour how you subtly implied that all atheists are intellectually inferior to Christians. That was a good one.

And since you seem to have carefully not actually replied to one of my more relevant points, here it is: I can not believe in god. It's not that I choose not to, it's not that I hold any negative feeling about god, and it's not a matter of pride. If when I die it turns out there is a god and an afterlife, I'll do my best to not be weighed down by any prejudices that worldly religions have left me with; because for all any of us knows god could be nothing like what you picture and exactly like what I hope he would be, as easily as it could the other way round, or any other possibility. But until then, I can no more honestly believe in god than either of us could believe in Santa Claus.

Now, while I feel that no one truly deserves to be punished, I think it's pretty unarguable at least that no one deserves to be punished for something beyond their control. And that's my point. For many people, belief in god is beyond their control. So if god chooses to punish people for that, I don't see how anyone could argue that god is just. Well, perhaps I should say anyone who actually believes in morality.

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

If there's easily space for them and they're incapable of doing any more harm? Hell yes I'd let them in. If there's no consequence to anyone else, I'd always rather see a person happy, no matter who they are or what they've done.

Onion! Wondering when you'd show up:

I'm only quoting directly from my psychology course here, and I don't make any claim to be an expert on the subject. And it's only a metaphor Holly brought up in the first place, so I don't think it needs too much expanding upon. But essentially every source I've read says that in the vast majority of cases, authoritative parenting is better than authoritarian. Hitting and yelling pretty definitely fall into the latter category. If you want more debate than that on this topic, it probably deserves its own thread.

Excuse though for a moment while I savour how you subtly implied that all atheists are intellectually inferior to Christians. That was a good one.

And since you seem to have carefully not actually replied to one of my more relevant points, here it is: I can not believe in god. It's not that I choose not to, it's not that I hold any negative feeling about god, and it's not a matter of pride. If when I die it turns out there is a god and an afterlife, I'll do my best to not be weighed down by any prejudices that worldly religions have left me with; because for all any of us knows god could be nothing like what you picture and exactly like what I hope he would be, as easily as it could the other way round, or any other possibility. But until then, I can no more honestly believe in god than either of us could believe in Santa Claus.

Now, while I feel that no one truly deserves to be punished, I think it's pretty unarguable at least that no one deserves to be punished for something beyond their control. And that's my point. For many people, belief in god is beyond their control. So if god chooses to punish people for that, I don't see how anyone could argue that god is just. Well, perhaps I should say anyone who actually believes in morality.

Because I believe the Bible is absolute truth and authority and have no reason to believe otherwise it is where I get my answer, and I can say that you willingly choose not to believe in God.

2 Peter 3:5
"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

Also I did not imply Christians are wiser in a worldy sense, in fact you're smarter than I am from what I can tell. However, God chose the foolish things in this world to shame the wise, and all will see the truth when death comes. This life is only for a season and you better figure it out because after this life there's an eternity. However, referring again to the Bible:

Psalms 14:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

By scholastic measure, you're probably way smarter than I am. But it does not ignore this in Psalms 14:1

Also, bringing up morality... if you're atheist we define our own morality because there is no absolute. Therefore it does not matter what you believe is moral or not because if God is the creator and all things are in control than God defines His own morals and because He is more powerful that you, He can subject you to any punishment He sees as fitting.

[Xujhan]

Okay, word-for-word bible-quoting time!

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."
Exodus 35:2

"For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him."

Leviticus 20:9

I'm sure you must have by run across the fact that a lot of what's printed in the bible is, for lack of a better term, batturd crazy. So what gives you the authority to decide which of god's words should be followed and which should not? If god's word is indeed absolute, and human judgment utterly without value in comparison as you seem to profess, what of verses like these?

It's an old argument, but I've never seen you respond to it, and given that easily half the bible quotes on TH are from you, I'm curious as to what your defense is.

As for morality, this is what I see. Morality is loosely defined as "concern with the distinction between right and wrong conduct." Thank-you, Google. By your view, what is moral for us is whatever god says, and what is moral for god is...still whatever god says. So god makes up any rules he likes and we get to follow them. That isn't morality. Without some kind of reasoning morality is just an arbitrary set of rules.

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

Okay, word-for-word bible-quoting time!

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."
Exodus 35:2

"For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him."

Leviticus 20:9

I'm sure you must have by run across the fact that a lot of what's printed in the bible is, for lack of a better term, batturd crazy. So what gives you the authority to decide which of god's words should be followed and which should not? If god's word is indeed absolute, and human judgment utterly without value in comparison as you seem to profess, what of verses like these?

It's an old argument, but I've never seen you respond to it, and given that easily half the bible quotes on TH are from you, I'm curious as to what your defense is.

As for morality, this is what I see. Morality is loosely defined as "concern with the distinction between right and wrong conduct." Thank-you, Google. By your view, what is moral for us is whatever god says, and what is moral for god is...still whatever god says. So god makes up any rules he likes and we get to follow them. That isn't morality. Without some kind of reasoning morality is just an arbitrary set of rules.

Way to change the topic...

Also before you just choose scripture passages that fit what you are trying to drive a point you need to understand their context. You can pick apart any writing and make it say something else entirely if you do not understand the context.

The sabbath was for benefit of others. It was to forbid people from driving their slaves to hard so that they could rest. All these laws are for the benefits of others. You act like these are some sort of injustice. This is God's universe, He can do as He pleases. These things are minor to how eternity is going to be if you do not repent to God whom provided a sacrifice to save you from Hell. If God is just than these are not unjustices because God can do as He pleases if we are His creation. Does a pig say "please farmer don't turn me into bacon?" Does a painting say to a painter, "I don't desire what you have made me, change me." Does a watch say to its watch-maker "it was unjust and against my free will for you to make me a watch, I demand to be a car?" We are GODS creation and because we are such we have no room to talk back to our Creator.

Again you bring up morality. I will state again. If you are atheist there is no such thing as morality because we all define our own morals. There are NO absolutes. I may find it perfectly reasonable to murder my whole family, while someone else may not. Who's right? Well technically we both our because we define right and wrong for yourself because there are no absolutes without God.

Also these passages are from the Old Testament, a testament is a covenant or an written agreement between two people. We are now under the New Testament which no longer abides by the law of the old because we have been set free from the law and sin by faith and repentance in Christ.

[Lurk]

Does a pig say "please farmer don't turn me into bacon?" Does a painting say to a painter, "I don't desire what you have made me, change me." Does a watch say to its watch-maker "it was unjust and against my free will for you to make me a watch, I demand to be a car?"

No. No, they don't. None can talk, and the latter two can't think. It is extremely probable that pigs would indeed say that if they could talk. Not all the rhetorical questions in the world can save this one.

Way to change the topic...

The point stands that people do tend to ignore explicit Biblical instructions if they're particularly inconvenient. Consider the passage that says, for example, you have to marry your rapist if you get raped (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). I see Christians ignoring that one fairly frequently these days, without suffering aspersions on their faithfulness.

Therefore it does not matter what you believe is moral or not because if God is the creator and all things are in control than God defines His own morals and because He is more powerful that you, He can subject you to any punishment He sees as fitting.

I'm not disagreeing with you here, but this is still pretty depressing. Might makes right, eh?

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by onion

Way to change the topic...

Also before you just choose scripture passages that fit what you are trying to drive a point you need to understand their context. You can pick apart any writing and make it say something else entirely if you do not understand the context.

The sabbath was for benefit of others. It was to forbid people from driving their slaves to hard so that they could rest. All these laws are for the benefits of others. You act like these are some sort of injustice. This is God's universe, He can do as He pleases. These things are minor to how eternity is going to be if you do not repent to God whom provided a sacrifice to save you from Hell. If God is just than these are not unjustices because God can do as He pleases if we are His creation. Does a pig say "please farmer don't turn me into bacon?" Does a painting say to a painter, "I don't desire what you have made me, change me." Does a watch say to its watch-maker "it was unjust and against my free will for you to make me a watch, I demand to be a car?" We are GODS creation and because we are such we have no room to talk back to our Creator.

Again you bring up morality. I will state again. If you are atheist there is no such thing as morality because we all define our own morals. There are NO absolutes. I may find it perfectly reasonable to murder my whole family, while someone else may not. Who's right? Well technically we both our because we define right and wrong for yourself because there are no absolutes without God.

Also these passages are from the Old Testament, a testament is a covenant or an written agreement between two people. We are now under the New Testament which no longer abides by the law of the old because we have been set free from the law and sin by faith and repentance in Christ.

New Testament it is!

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
(1 Tim. 2:11-14)

"Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." (1 Peter 2:18)

So, what context can you give to explain these away?

And I will also state again, as an atheist, there is such a thing as morality. It is simply not the black-and-white thing you view it to be. God is not a necessary precursor to ethics and morality - as much as I'm sure you hate to hear it, evolution and game theory actually explain its origins quite well. Just because something is not absolute does not mean that it is non-existent, and trying to claim as much as absolute ridiculous. Yes, morality is a social construct. But it still exists, and still exists to serve the good of humanity.

I wasn't intending to change the topic: you quoted the bible as your reason for "knowing" that I am capable of believing in god and willfully doing otherwise, so I was challenging your use of the bible as a source of argument.

And again, on what authority do you decide to interpret the bible figuratively? If it is the word of god, should you not take it literally, since your judgment is worthless? God hath decreed that you should kill all the ___ (and there are a whole lot of options here), so why aren't you getting out your swords, or your stones, or what have you? The simple fact is, you do not live by the bible. You don't even try to. You pick and choose the bits that are easy to conform to, and anything that would have you doing something that would be considered amoral by society - see what I did there? - or even just rather inconvenient - you avoid, and write off as "meant for an older society" or "meant to be taken figuratively." Yet you still try to use other parts of scripture as absolute support to make absolute claims. You simply cannot have it both ways.