Question to those of you who are religious.

[Gymnophoria]

I was thinking earlier about a story from the bible I heard when I was a child. The story is in Gensis 22: 1-19

1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.

2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”

“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.

“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram[a] caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided.”

15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring[b] all nations on earth will be blessed,[c] because you have obeyed me.”

In this story, God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son for God. If your God came to you and said "I want you to tie your mother/father/brother/sister/best friend/partner etc. to a table and kill him/her in my name." would you do it?
Could you really murder someone you really loved and cared about just because someone you can't physically prove exists told you to?

[Nomophobia]

personally....no I wouldn't.

[Sythan]

Well, I am not Christian so I cannot speak from that perspective, plus my Deity condemns sacrifice of living things.

Many religious people are going on more than just blind faith, I have seen first hand my Dieities in action, as many Christians have seen the miracles of Christ and God performed in this time.

Your question does not make much sense, if God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, that proves he exists, plus an Angel came down to stop him from doing it, so thats 2 for 1 he exists.

[LeapOfFayth]

No because in todays time that's called a mental illness. I'm sure if you googled it though you'll find a lot of news stories about people who say yes to that question.

[Celestial.]

Definitely not.
For a start, I don't believe that my deity/ies would ever ask me to do something like that.
And secondly, if they did, I would probably stop stop worshipping them, then and there.

[TakeTheLeap]

I really can't say. I would say that if I chose to do as God commanded, I would have to believe that He would have some great plan for me in store, which I'm sure He would.
God is such a loving God and the times are so very different. I can't be sure He would ask that of us, but I can't be sure He wouldn't either.
All in all, I'm not sure if I would or not.

[Megan1]

This is one of my absolute favorite bible stories and actually plays a part in my testimony.

To answer your question, I would if I knew for sure that it was God and not just me developing a mental illness and hearing voices.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Dr. Gregory House

I really can't say. I would say that if I chose to do as God commanded, I would have to believe that He would have some great plan for me in store, which I'm sure He would.

So you'd kill your own family members and loved ones if you thought you'd be rewarded?

Originally Posted by Megan1

This is one of my absolute favorite bible stories and actually plays a part in my testimony.

What do you find appealing to the story?

Originally Posted by Megan1

To answer your question, I would if I knew for sure that it was God and not just me developing a mental illness and hearing voices.

Would it not bother you that, well, it'd be breaking the 6th commandment? Would you not question why a loving god would order a young girl to kill someone close to them? I find it disturbing you'd do it without questioning like a robot, no mind of your own, just doing as you're told.

At least Emily states she'd do if there was a reward big enough to compensate the killing, but in your case, you'd do it even if there wasn't. And the world wonders how religious killings and bombings can occur, you're a shining example.

[Guile]

Jesus died in place of "person x" that's why we don't have to do that anymore

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by WOW!USaidSomethingSmart!

What do you find appealing to the story?

I had heard the story when I was really little (probably Kindergarten), but forgot all about it and hadn't read the bible since. Then when I was 16, the story randomly popped into my head and it is what got me thinking "Could I really give up everything for God?" ....and when I realized that the answer was no and that God wasn't first in my life, I went to some Christian friends for help and they explained salvation to me- which is how I was saved. There's a little more to the story than that, but that's what this story has to do with it.

Originally Posted by WOW!USaidSomethingSmart!

Would it not bother you that, well, it'd be breaking the 6th commandment? Would you not question why a loving god would order a young girl to kill someone close to them? I find it disturbing you'd do it without questioning like a robot, no mind of your own, just doing as you're told.

At least Emily states she'd do if there was a reward big enough to compensate the killing, but in your case, you'd do it even if there wasn't. And the world wonders how religious killings and bombings can occur, you're a shining example.

Well that's the thing- God wouldn't tell us to do this because of the fact that it's breaking the 6th commandment. This whole thing is just hypothetical. Back when He told Abraham to kill, Jesus hadn't died yet to take the place of those sacrifices. Plus, God didn't actually make him do it, it was only a test. God wouldn't make us kill now. But the point is, if God told me to do something that I really didn't want to do, I would do it as long as I knew that it was really God telling me to. God kows a lot better than I do, so if He told me to do something that I didn't want to do, I would trust that He knows better than me. But this is just hypothetical because God wouldn't actually ask me to kill unless it was just a test and He was going to stop me like with Abraham.

And it's not the same as religious killings around the world because my God won't actually make us kill people. Yes those people who are killing for religion are just obeying their gods like I am, but the difference is that their religion tells them to kill and mine tells me not to- so I'm no threat to the world.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Megan1

Well that's the thing- God wouldn't tell us to do this because of the fact that it's breaking the 6th commandment.
...
And it's not the same as religious killings around the world because my God won't actually make us kill people. Yes those people who are killing for religion are just obeying their gods like I am, but the difference is that their religion tells them to kill and mine tells me not to- so I'm no threat to the world.

So I take it you've never actually read your bible. Numbers 31 (all of it) contains god ordering Moses to kill Midianites as well as keeping all virgin women as he also encourages rape.

"And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan;
Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it." (Numbers 33:50-53), another example of god ordering Moses and his pals to kill people.


"So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.
And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan.
All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many.
And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city." (Deutereonomy 3:3-6), again more killing from god


"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree" (Deuteronomy 21:18-22), killing of your own son if he's rebellious and god doesn't have a problem with it.



"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death"
(Mark 7:9-10), ordering killing of one's of children

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17), Jesus supports all the killings in the Old Testament and encourages them to continue.

You think there's no violence nor killing in the bible supported by god and Jesus in the old and new testament? Hate to break it to you but there's plenty of it. You openly admitted you would kill if god ordered it, so you're just like the characters in the Old Testament who kill children, men, non-virgin women and possibly virgin women in cities all in the name of god. Read your bible, particularly the old testament. Even if you don't believe in the old testament, which is a bullshit excuse, it shaped the new testament.

Originally Posted by Megan1

God wouldn't make us kill now.

How do you know this? I was under the impression people don't know what god wants or thinks as it's too complex. So you have no idea, you're merely guessing.

Originally Posted by Megan1

But this is just hypothetical because God wouldn't actually ask me to kill unless it was just a test and He was going to stop me like with Abraham.

Again, explain why you know this or think this.

[Jocelyn.]

Please tell me I've misread.

A couple of you would actually consider it? Really?

I don't care if you think he would actually make you go through with it or not, that fact that some of the very religious people on this board would even consider it is scary... Wow.

[dr2005]

No, I wouldn't - and that's not the point of the story anyway. However determined Abraham was or otherwise to go ahead with it, God would not have allowed Isaac to come to harm because He didn't ask Abraham to do that with the honest intention of having Isaac killed. Otherwise, why wouldn't He have just gone through with it and said "Good boy Abraham, you passed the test"? He stopped him once he had demonstrated his dedication, and while some people might consider that inflicting psychological harm on Abraham and Isaac (which is a fair point), view it in the context of the time and it's not by any means the worst conduct - and unlike others might have done, God never put him in that position again. The whole purpose of the incident to my mind is to demonstrate that such sacrifices are not required by God, only a strength of purpose.

@ WOW!: I was about to write a lengthy critique of your cherrypicking of the Old and New Testaments, but thought better of it as it would take the thread off topic. Suffice it to say, however, that with all due respect it would do your argument more favours were you not so liberal with taking phrases and statements completely out of context (the Mark 7 reference in particular is a complete misrepresentation of that chapter). I'm no apologist by any means and fully acknowledge the Bible's less salubrious elements and the number of them, but if you're going to criticise its message please at least do so in its proper context. Otherwise it's going to make as much sense as me debating biology by reference to the Book of British Birds (to paraphrase Terry Eagleton).

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by WOW!USaidSomethingSmart!

So I take it you've never actually read your bible. Numbers 31 (all of it) contains god ordering Moses to kill Midianites as well as keeping all virgin women as he also encourages rape.

"And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan;
Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it." (Numbers 33:50-53), another example of god ordering Moses and his pals to kill people.


"So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.
And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan.
All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many.
And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city." (Deutereonomy 3:3-6), again more killing from god


"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree" (Deuteronomy 21:18-22), killing of your own son if he's rebellious and god doesn't have a problem with it.



"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death"
(Mark 7:9-10), ordering killing of one's of children

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17), Jesus supports all the killings in the Old Testament and encourages them to continue.

You think there's no violence nor killing in the bible supported by god and Jesus in the old and new testament? Hate to break it to you but there's plenty of it. You openly admitted you would kill if god ordered it, so you're just like the characters in the Old Testament who kill children, men, non-virgin women and possibly virgin women in cities all in the name of god. Read your bible, particularly the old testament. Even if you don't believe in the old testament, which is a bullshit excuse, it shaped the new testament.



How do you know this? I was under the impression people don't know what god wants or thinks as it's too complex. So you have no idea, you're merely guessing.



Again, explain why you know this or think this.

I know those stories. I was talking about now. That was the old testament, this is the new testament. All of the reasons that God had to do that back then don't exist any more because Jesus died for those reasons.

And how do I know that God wouldn't make us kill now? The only reasons that He ever allowed killing was to punish sin in some way or another, and Jesus took the punishment for our sins so we don't have to any more. Any other reason to kill in the old testament was considered wrong even then.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by ball&chain

I don't care if you think he would actually make you go through with it or not, that fact that some of the very religious people on this board would even consider it is scary... Wow.

Unfortunately, you didn't misread. If people are deluded enough into something, reasoning and basic morals go out the door. You won't get any better answer to your question of "why", it'd be nice if there were but I'll be optimistic and say maybe you will get answers, although they're going to be deluded nonetheless.

Originally Posted by dr2005

@ WOW!: I was about to write a lengthy critique of your cherrypicking of the Old and New Testaments, but thought better of it as it would take the thread off topic. Suffice it to say, however, that with all due respect it would do your argument more favours were you not so liberal with taking phrases and statements completely out of context (the Mark 7 reference in particular is a complete misrepresentation of that chapter). I'm no apologist by any means and fully acknowledge the Bible's less salubrious elements and the number of them, but if you're going to criticise its message please at least do so in its proper context. Otherwise it's going to make as much sense as me debating biology by reference to the Book of British Birds (to paraphrase Terry Eagleton).

Fair enough, I should have considered the context but my intent was to counter Megan1's statement of how the bible doesn't have instances of where it commands people to kill. But your point is still valid.

Originally Posted by Megan1

I know those stories. I was talking about now. That was the old testament, this is the new testament. All of the reasons that God had to do that back then don't exist any more because Jesus died for those reasons.

That argument fails because several instances in the bible it says to obey all parts of the bible, including the old testament. In fact, one of the passages I referenced says that. However, if we are to ignore the old testament, then we are to ignore the 10 commandments yet you cited the 6th commandment as part of your argument. If the old testament doesn't apply, neither do those 10 commandments, which makes it much easier to go along with what much of the acts in the old testament.

Originally Posted by Megan1

And how do I know that God wouldn't make us kill now? The only reasons that He ever allowed killing was to punish sin in some way or another, and Jesus took the punishment for our sins so we don't have to any more. Any other reason to kill in the old testament was considered wrong even then.

Seeing as how god didn't have much of a problem doing such acts then and parts of the bible say to obey the old testament. Even in the old testament, god ordered killings with full knowledge it breached the 6th commandment, so to me it seems he ignores them at times when he tells people to kill others but at other times he abides by them.

[Jack]

Hell, I'm not religious and if God himself came to me and told me to then of course I'd do it.

Of course the only argument is "well, how do you know it's God?" but I think we can assume that if it really was God he'd be able to demonstrate it to your satisfaction as he's omniscient and omnipotent and all that.

Anyway, if the options are: Commit a terrible act and have an eternity of bliss for doing what God said or disobeying God and suffering for all eternity (this assuming the existence of a hell along with God as without the possible reward of heaven and the possible punishment of hell then what reason would you have for following his orders anyway?) then I think I know which one I'd pick. If God does exist and controls the gateway to paradise after death then does it matter if his commands are moral or not? You would simply go along with it or burn, and I'd rather not burn. Not to mention that if God does exist I'd imagine our idea of morality would be rather different to his.

Of course, as I don't believe in God I don't have to deal with any of this.

[TakeTheLeap]

Originally Posted by WOW!USaidSomethingSmart!

So you'd kill your own family members and loved ones if you thought you'd be rewarded?

Well, I certainly don't mean to say that I'd kill my family members of I was going to be rewarded with a cookie or something.
What I mean by reward is that God promises all who follow Him rewards greater than we will ever know - Just like Abraham, God would be asking this of me for some sort of reason. I would have to trust that God had some sort of plan for me for performing such an act. It's engrained in our brains as Christians - do God's will, be rewarded beyond your wildest dreams (not through material possessions, but through eternal life). I would have to absolutely trust that God would accept my loved ones in Heaven with outstretched arms to welcome them home to even consider it.

My moral compass points as far away from killing as possible, so I can't even say I -could- do it if the situation came about. I'd like to say that I would do as God asks me, but I would most definitely need to have complete trust in God that everything would be okay in the end. Like Abraham, I would have to trust that it is only a test, and not truly what God wants.

[Smitten]

o.o Schizophrenia with auditory hallucinations.

The neighbors dog told me to do it...

[Megan1]

Originally Posted by WOW!USaidSomethingSmart!

That argument fails because several instances in the bible it says to obey all parts of the bible, including the old testament. In fact, one of the passages I referenced says that. However, if we are to ignore the old testament, then we are to ignore the 10 commandments yet you cited the 6th commandment as part of your argument. If the old testament doesn't apply, neither do those 10 commandments, which makes it much easier to go along with what much of the acts in the old testament.

God never changes, but His relationship with us (humans) has changed several times. So yes, we aren’t supposed to ignore the Old Testament because God was the same then as He is now. However, His relationship with us is not the same as it was then- so we have to take everything in the Old Testament and read it in the context that it was written in. For example, God told Moses to kill people because of their sins…..but that only applies to the people who needed to be punished for their sins. And since Jesus took our sins, we don’t have to be punished for them any more- so killing people now would be taking that out of context. I didn’t mean to say to ignore the whole Old Testament, sorry if it sounded that way; I just meant to take everything in context……and killing people is NOT in context today.

Originally Posted by WOW!USaidSomethingSmart!

Seeing as how god didn't have much of a problem doing such acts then and parts of the bible say to obey the old testament. Even in the old testament, god ordered killings with full knowledge it breached the 6th commandment, so to me it seems he ignores them at times when he tells people to kill others but at other times he abides by them.

It is impossible for God to break the 6th commandment or any other commandment for this simple reason- God wrote the commandments for us. They were written to show humans what they are doing wrong and to show them that they fall short of God’s law. They are for us humans to follow. It is not a sin for God to go against them because they weren’t written for God; they were written for us.

It’s like if you had a child and you wrote a list of rules for them. Say that one of the rules is that they aren’t allowed to watch a PG-13 movie. You made this rule because you know that your children aren’t old enough to understand that some of the things in those movies are bad, so they aren’t old enough to know not to imitate the things that they are seeing in the movie. Does that mean that it is wrong for you to watch the movie too (not around the kids)? No, it’s fine for you to watch it because the reason for those rules don’t apply to you since you are old enough to know not to imitate the things in the movie. It is the same with God’s laws. He writes them for us humans, but they don’t apply to Him because He doesn’t have to worry about Himself sinning since it is impossible for God to have sin.

I’m having a hard time putting this into words, so you will probably think that it sounds stupid….but I’ve said all that I can say really.

[Kira-Kira]

no one of the ten commandments say i shall not commit murder or something to that understanding i will not kill anyone even if god told me to

[Enchanted ❧]

I would say probably not, because it comes down to this. Even if we believe in god, and god was telling us to. The athuroties would most likely deem you mentally crazy and we would end up in a phys ch ward

[Troubled_Heart]

no... if god's not a nice guy and wants you to do stuff like that i'd rather go to hell than be anywhere near him...

[Kitty.]

IF God told me to kill someone, I believe that He would be testing my faith.

[Jack]

Why do so many Christians have an issue with the idea that God might not be adverse to killing. After all he killed all the innocent first born sons of Egypt for their pharaoh's actions, flooded the world and killed thousands (if not millions) of people, destroyed several citys of people, killed Job's family for a bet and sent bears to maul children (or young adults, whichever translation you like) to death simply for mocking someone's baldness. God has no issue with killing or ordering killings so "oh he would never ask me to do that" doesn't seem particularly persuasive. Anyway, whether he would actually ask you to do so or not is irrelevant, that is the whole point of a hypothetical question.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by Megan1

It is impossible for God to break the 6th commandment or any other commandment for this simple reason- God wrote the commandments for us. They were written to show humans what they are doing wrong and to show them that they fall short of God’s law. They are for us humans to follow. It is not a sin for God to go against them because they weren’t written for God; they were written for us.

It’s like if you had a child and you wrote a list of rules for them. Say that one of the rules is that they aren’t allowed to watch a PG-13 movie. You made this rule because you know that your children aren’t old enough to understand that some of the things in those movies are bad, so they aren’t old enough to know not to imitate the things that they are seeing in the movie. Does that mean that it is wrong for you to watch the movie too (not around the kids)? No, it’s fine for you to watch it because the reason for those rules don’t apply to you since you are old enough to know not to imitate the things in the movie. It is the same with God’s laws. He writes them for us humans, but they don’t apply to Him because He doesn’t have to worry about Himself sinning since it is impossible for God to have sin.

So god can kill if he wants because he cleverly didn't include himself in the rules. unfortunately, that supports any of his killings because he faces no punishment.

When you say it's impossible for god to have sin, look in the Old Testament at times when he does kill people. God created good and evil, there's no way for him to make evil if he is free from sin. You could say evil is the lack of good, however, this immediately brings up the question of the Lucifer to Satan story. In the old testament, he's blood-thirsty, pick up virtually any book of it and at some point, he's either threatening to kill, getting people to kill or he's doing the killing.

[Megan1]

He wrote those rules for us because we are stupid humans with tiny little brains (even if you know a lot, compared to what God knows it really isn't that much), so we need to be told what God wants us to do or we would do the wrong thing. God knows what He needs Himself to do and just does it. It would have been stupid of Him to make rules for Himself. There's no need for it.

There's no way for Him to make evil if He is free from sin? Yes there is. You can't make something without being free from it? Says who? You can make something and have it not attached to you in any way.

Anyways, we are missing the whole point of the question: would you give up something that you love for God even if you really don't want to. My answer is yes. The end.