If God is real then why.....

[LostTeen011]

I really want to believe God is real, but I just can't see how. If God is real why is there so much disaster and heartache in this world. If he's the loving God as portrayed in the Bible why are all of those events taking place. Why are there innocent people starving and dying from illness? Why are evil people getting away with their plots and schemes? Why is their so much science to prove he doesn't exist otherwise?

[Sythan]

We can change it though, why should God or any higher being help us if we can change it ourselves? We caused the wars and starvation, Political leaders turn a blind eye if it is not advantageous to them. If I were God, I wouldn't want to help people blinded by their own greed and selfishness.

[Marguerite]

Originally Posted by Sythan

We can change it though, why should God or any higher being help us if we can change it ourselves? We caused the wars and starvation, Political leaders turn a blind eye if it is not advantageous to them. If I were God, I wouldn't want to help people blinded by their own greed and selfishness.

So let the masses starve and die to teach a few political leaders a lesson on greed and selfishness. Oh, what a wonderful God.

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by LostTeen011

I really want to believe God is real, but I just can't see how. If God is real why is there so much disaster and heartache in this world. If he's the loving God as portrayed in the Bible why are all of those events taking place. Why are there innocent people starving and dying from illness? Why are evil people getting away with their plots and schemes? Why is their so much science to prove he doesn't exist otherwise?

First of all, you've made a mistake in your logic.

In order to believe in God, God does not have to be loving (though I believe He is). You say, "I really want to believe God is real." Okay. Great. But what does that have to do with God being loving? Just because you don't see the love of God, does not mean that God doesn't exists. It simply means you have a wrong interpretation of love, humanity, or God is not loving. It doesn't mean God doesn't exist. God could be hateful. God could be vengeful. God could be a lot of things. Just because you fail to see His love, does not mean He doesn't exist. It just means you fail to see His love, or He isn't loving. But I don't see how you can conclude, "Well, then, God doesn't exist.

Think for a moment. If I say, "Brad Pitt is a great actor." And then you go and watch a movie with Brad Pitt and you think him a horrible actor. Would you then conclude that this "Brad Pitt" wasn't REALLY Brad Pitt, or maybe Brad Pitt doesn't exist at all? Probably not. You'd probably come to terms with yourself and conclude that you simply have a different interpretation of what a good and horrible actor is, and realize that you are title to your own version of what goodness in an actor is. Rather, this should be the same with God. If God is loving perhaps your definition or understanding of that love varies from the Biblical understanding.

Secondly, if we conclude God is loving, which I believe He is, we must then understand why God allows, if not causes or decrees, all that goes on in the world today, including disasters, deaths, torments, suicides, genocides, addictions, rape, murders, etc. Well, according to the Bible, the same book that declares God as loving, we are declared to be at enmity with God. That is, we are at war with God. We are God haters, we rebel against Him, we choose to do evil as opposed to good. We are described as wicked, not knowing the way of peace, having no fear of God before our eyes, etc.

If this be the case, if we are wicked, God-haters, and we are at war with God, and if that God is just, and if we rebelled against Him, does He not have the right to do what He sees fit? Does He not have the right to cause pains, and afflictions? You seem to believe that evil is exclusive. That is, that Hitler was some sort of special breed to the human race. Yet God declares that we are all as wicked as Hitler. Perhaps not in deed, but in our hearts. We despise people. We murder people in our hearts, we rape people with our minds, if we had our way, we'd even kill God. Even the most "holy" man would kill Him, and in fact, the most righteous men at one time did kill Him, but He raised again.

The issue, I believe, is that man does not understand sin. How can you understand the love of God, how can you know of God's grace, how can you know of God's peace, and mercy, if you do not understand your offenses to Him? Consider a judge. If a judge walked up to you right now and said, "I forgive you." You'd laugh. You'd be like, "Okay? I did nothing wrong, but thanks." Perhaps even in a sarcastic manner. You wouldn't understand the judges mercy upon you. But if I reveal to you that in your sleep you murdered the judges son, and then you understand why he forgave you, it puts a whole new context on that mercy, and on that forgiveness. If you don't understand your offenses before God, you will not understand how God is loving.

Now, before you refute me, consider Christ. Christ was God the Father's Son, yet Christ was equally God as God the Father. However, God the Father sent Christ into the world to die. For what? For sinners. For the people who hate God the most. God sent His Son to die in their place. Why? Because of our offenses. Our offenses needed to be payed for and the Father imputed all those who believe on Christ, sins on Christ, and forgave them. Not by just mere forgiveness, but by putting it away justly. But I also say, that Christ's death was the biggest evil ever committed by man. It is worse than all the genocides, murders, rapes, whatever evil you can think of COMBINED. Christ even stated about the man who betrayed Him, that it would have been better if that man to have never of been born. It was the greatest evil, yet God completely ordained it.

Why? Well, this is where we need faith. The Bible teaches us that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God and to bring about God's own glory. So, do I know why people get raped? Yeah, for God's glory and the good of His people. Do I know why disasters happen? Yeah, for God's glory and the good of His people. Am I excited that they happen? Not really. Do I know HOW it brings His glory and good to His people? No. But I trust the Person wise enough to create the universe is wise enough to bring Himself glory and bring good to His people.

In regards to science disproving God, what science are you talking about?

Lastly, I don't wish to force you to believe this way, but I think you should reconsider whether you want God to exist. At least biblically speaking, and I find that this is true, none of us want Him to exist. Not even "Christians," nor myself. We are all God-haters and want nothing to do with Him. And until someone reconciles this as fact, they won't ever be saved, and they won't ever genuinely believe in YHWH. Why? Because our strength is in our weaknesses.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by LostTeen011

I really want to believe God is real, but I just can't see how. If God is real why is there so much disaster and heartache in this world. If he's the loving God as portrayed in the Bible why are all of those events taking place. Why are there innocent people starving and dying from illness? Why are evil people getting away with their plots and schemes? Why is their so much science to prove he doesn't exist otherwise?

The bible doesn't portray god as a loving guy, particularly in the Old Testament as he's shown to be a very hateful and violent being. In fact he even considers himself to be a "jealous god" in Exodus 20:5, which is part of where the 10 commandments are said. If you look view god as a hateful being, then lots of the destruction and hatefulness on Earth makes some sense.

Science doesn't prove he does/does not exist. There are no studies of any sort examining his existence. Instead, people take scientific theories and concepts to refute what is said in the bible as a way of disproving god (or as a way of proving god), yet it's all twisting around science.

Originally Posted by mewithYou

So, do I know why people get raped? Yeah, for God's glory and the good of His people. Do I know why disasters happen? Yeah, for God's glory and the good of His people. Am I excited that they happen? Not really. Do I know HOW it brings His glory and good to His people? No. But I trust the Person wise enough to create the universe is wise enough to bring Himself glory and bring good to His people.

For the good of his people? What a great explanation offered, truly a sick and perverted explanation.

If god is loving, why did he kill so many or order so many Christians to kill others? In fact, if he's a loving god, why is there a hell? Why is there not just a heaven?

Originally Posted by mewithYou

If you don't understand your offenses before God, you will not understand how God is loving.

You mentioned similar statements in your post but for the sake of my laziness, I'm just quoting this particular sentence to represent the other ones. It seems that the idea is to understand god, you must believe in god. That's a cop-out by telling someone who doesn't believe, that the only way for them to understand is if they dump their view and accept the one you believe. It's like if you were to ask me something about atheism or theistic Satanism, I'd say you have to dump your view and accept the atheistic or theistic satanic view to understand. It's a cop-out because I could attempt to explain in another form but instead I don't and resort to this.

[Sythan]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

So let the masses starve and die to teach a few political leaders a lesson on greed and selfishness. Oh, what a wonderful God.

The masses can change everything if they grew a pair and stood up to the corruption.

[Marguerite]

Originally Posted by Sythan

The masses can change everything if they grew a pair and stood up to the corruption.

Easy for you to say in California.

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

For the good of his people? What a great explanation offered, truly a sick and perverted explanation.

This is the least of the point, it is for His glory.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

If god is loving, why did he kill so many or order so many Christians to kill others? In fact, if he's a loving god, why is there a hell? Why is there not just a heaven?

He never ordered Christians to kill others. Christ said to love your neighbor as your self. To bless your enemies. If they strike you, to turn the other cheek. Not everyone who says they are a Christian, is. If you were Satan, think about this, if you were Satan would you come announcing yourself as the great deceiver? Or would you hide yourself as an angel of light, as a Christian, and deceive the many this way? Why is there a Hell? Because God is just. He isn't just loving. He's provided everything for the salvation of men, salvation is near. In fact, it could not be any nearer. But people resist this grace of God and willingly choose Hell. Their inability to be saved, is a willing inability.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

You mentioned similar statements in your post but for the sake of my laziness, I'm just quoting this particular sentence to represent the other ones. It seems that the idea is to understand god, you must believe in god. That's a cop-out by telling someone who doesn't believe, that the only way for them to understand is if they dump their view and accept the one you believe. It's like if you were to ask me something about atheism or theistic Satanism, I'd say you have to dump your view and accept the atheistic or theistic satanic view to understand. It's a cop-out because I could attempt to explain in another form but instead I don't and resort to this.

No. That's not my argument. My argument is simply that you do not have to believe God is loving to believe in God. But to believe God is loving you need to understand your faults against Him first. To disbelieve in God simply because you fail to see His love is perhaps one of the most illogical things I've ever heard of. God could be evil, could He not be? I don't believe He is, but I don't understand why people say, "Well, I fail to see God's love so He must not exist." That's like me saying, "I fail to see anger, so the Spaghetti Monster must not exist." How do I even know the Spaghetti Monster is an angry monster, if I don't even know it exists? It's placing an attribute to something you are agnostic about. It simply makes no sense.

[dr2005]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

Easy for you to say in California.

It doesn't mean he's wrong, though. There are more than enough resources on this planet - even with the population level as it is - for the entire global population to be fed, watered and treated for most if not all illness. The reason it doesn't happen is because it's contrary to the self-interest of those who have established a stranglehold on resources and want to get as much as they can realistically get for them, hence why first-world countries such as the USA and UK have record levels of obesity while nearly a billion people globally starve. If the average person kicked up enough of a stink about it then the problem could be solved in no time, but the brutal reality is most people don't care that much about things beyond their own domain. It's very cynical and probably quite harsh, but look at the numbers and it's hard to come to any other conclusion, and faced with that blaming God for humanity's penchant for either being or putting up with douchebags doesn't make a lot of sense. Natural evil is another thing altogether.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by mewithYou

If this be the case, if we are wicked, God-haters, and we are at war with God, and if that God is just, and if we rebelled against Him, does He not have the right to do what He sees fit? Does He not have the right to cause pains, and afflictions? You seem to believe that evil is exclusive. That is, that Hitler was some sort of special breed to the human race. Yet God declares that we are all as wicked as Hitler. Perhaps not in deed, but in our hearts. We despise people. We murder people in our hearts, we rape people with our minds, if we had our way, we'd even kill God. Even the most "holy" man would kill Him, and in fact, the most righteous men at one time did kill Him, but He raised again.

I'm forever amazed that you actually manage to cling to this ideology. The cognitive dissonance must be staggering. I would love to tell you that I don't wish death upon anyone, nor suffering, nor sadness. If I had the power to magically increase the happiness of a random person I would always choose to do so no matter who that person might be. I would love to be able to convince you that I really do love humanity. Since you so clearly disagree with me though, I have to ask: do you think I'm lying, or do you merely think you know me better than I know myself? It must be one or the other, because you are forever telling me what I think, what I feel, and how I would act in contradiction to what I tell you myself.

Originally Posted by mewithYou

The issue, I believe, is that man does not understand sin. How can you understand the love of God, how can you know of God's grace, how can you know of God's peace, and mercy, if you do not understand your offenses to Him? Consider a judge. If a judge walked up to you right now and said, "I forgive you." You'd laugh. You'd be like, "Okay? I did nothing wrong, but thanks." Perhaps even in a sarcastic manner. You wouldn't understand the judges mercy upon you. But if I reveal to you that in your sleep you murdered the judges son, and then you understand why he forgave you, it puts a whole new context on that mercy, and on that forgiveness. If you don't understand your offenses before God, you will not understand how God is loving.

You may wish to rethink your analogy, since you have just described god as someone who will happily punish a person for something they did not consciously choose. I agree that this is a damningly good representation if the biblical god in all his bloody glory, but it's nothing close to actual morality. You cannot reasonably hold someone accountable for something they did not choose to do.

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

I'm forever amazed that you actually manage to cling to this ideology. The cognitive dissonance must be staggering. I would love to tell you that I don't wish death upon anyone, nor suffering, nor sadness. If I had the power to magically increase the happiness of a random person I would always choose to do so no matter who that person might be. I would love to be able to convince you that I really do love humanity. Since you so clearly disagree with me though, I have to ask: do you think I'm lying, or do you merely think you know me better than I know myself? It must be one or the other, because you are forever telling me what I think, what I feel, and how I would act in contradiction to what I tell you myself.

I am not amazed you feel this way. I once thought myself to be the same. Others thought myself the same as well. In fact, by the worlds standard I was a moral kid. I thought I loved everyone, I wanted everyone to be happy, but then as I began to become more introvert and actually question my morals, and questioning my reasonings, and no doubt, I believe when God opened my eyes, I saw that I failed in all these regards. That I was selfish, hateful, proud, arrogant, etc. I do not doubt I had love, but it is not a genuine love that I feel now, or that is growing in me now. Even towards people I dislike, I have a love that I did not once have, though I thought I had.

I do not claim to know you better than yourself, but I do claim that God does, and that the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful. And I do claim that man's judgment is not flawless.

Originally Posted by Xujhan

You may wish to rethink your analogy, since you have just described god as someone who will happily punish a person for something they did not consciously choose. I agree that this is a damningly good representation if the biblical god in all his bloody glory, but it's nothing close to actual morality. You cannot reasonably hold someone accountable for something they did not choose to do.

God completely ordained all things, yet man willingly rejects Him, but will never come to Him on their own. Paradox? Yes. Can I explain it? No. But I trust God is just and believe that He does what is right and acceptable. It's not for me to question, but to simply rest on Christ and to tell others of the good news of the Gospel imploring them to trust Christ's sacrifice because Christ would have mercy on all people, and in fact has had mercy on all people, but is waiting for them. Yet they willing reject Him and will continue to do so unless by God's grace. Again, I understand this is illogical. But it is how the Bible is.

In fact, consider Judas, yet again. The scriptures 3,000 years before Christ ever existed prophesied about Judas betrayal of Christ. It was therefore ordained by God because if Judas had not betrayed Christ, Christ would not have been put over and would not have rescued sinners. Yet Judas, as scriptures proved, acted in accordance to his own will, though under the power of Satan, ordained by God. I don't understand it. But there are many things I don't understand, but I still believe in them, as does everyone. Even the smartest person alive can be dumbfounded by the question, "Why?" or "How?"

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by mewithYou

This is the least of the point, it is for His glory.

That was part of why I said it's a sick and perverted reason. If your friend was raped and they asked you why it happened, would you tell them "it was beneficial to humanity and of god's glory you got raped, I don't know why though"? I'm ignoring the fact you probably would console your friend and such as it makes the example over-complicated with irrelevant information.

Originally Posted by mewithYou

He never ordered Christians to kill others.

So what's with the Old Testament, such as Leviticus, Deuteronomy and parts of Numbers? I could've sworn they had parts where it said to kill everyone in a village if there was only 1 non-believer, to kill villages of non-believers and encourage rape. You know the contents of the bible quite well, certainly you're aware of all these incidents. They all have god commanding the killing.

Originally Posted by mewithYou

Christ said to love your neighbor as your self. To bless your enemies.

Yes, for the most part, Christ did promote this but not god in the Old Testament.

Originally Posted by mewithYou

If you were Satan, think about this, if you were Satan would you come announcing yourself as the great deceiver? Or would you hide yourself as an angel of light, as a Christian, and deceive the many this way?

I think you're missing one key thing: god made Lucifer and god is all-knowing, so it makes sense god knew what would've happened. As usual, if god didn't know, he isn't all-knowing.

Originally Posted by mewithYou

Why is there a Hell? Because God is just. He isn't just loving. He's provided everything for the salvation of men, salvation is near. In fact, it could not be any nearer. But people resist this grace of God and willingly choose Hell. Their inability to be saved, is a willing inability.

People willingly choose hell? This is a part I don't understand. God made humans and god is all-knowing, so surely he'd know which humans won't obey him. By that reason, hell serves as a punishment. However, god has the ability to create people in a way for all them to believe and worship him, so hell would then be pretty much empty. But god didn't do that, he purposely made some people not believe at all. Point is, if god made everyone, knows everything and can do everything, is it really people choosing to go hell or is it god having them choose hell?

Originally Posted by mewithYou

No. That's not my argument. My argument is simply that you do not have to believe God is loving to believe in God. But to believe God is loving you need to understand your faults against Him first. To disbelieve in God simply because you fail to see His love is perhaps one of the most illogical things I've ever heard of.

HAHAHA. Oh that made me laugh by you using the word "illogical" in part of your religious argument.

Originally Posted by mewithYou

God could be evil, could He not be? I don't believe He is

Why? For him to have created so many evil things on this world, does that not mean some part of him is evil or at least he has a partially evil mindset? He made good things too but for the evil things to exist, does that not make him both evil and good?

[Sythan]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

Easy for you to say in California.

It doesn't matter if you are in California or Alabama, we control the Government, not the other way around.

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

That was part of why I said it's a sick and perverted reason.

No, it isn't....

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

For the good of his people? What a great explanation offered, truly a sick and perverted explanation.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

If your friend was raped and they asked you why it happened, would you tell them "it was beneficial to humanity and of god's glory you got raped, I don't know why though"? I'm ignoring the fact you probably would console your friend and such as it makes the example over-complicated with irrelevant information.

No. The Bible does not deny that there is a time for mourning. It in fact says it is good to mourn. However, I do not believe it is for me to flash it infront of peoples faces that I believe this way. I will say this, if my family were all killed, or if something horrible happened to myself, worse than rape, would I be upset? Yes. Would I be sad? Yes. But I'd know that God is working out His glory through this. And that is the best news. Why? Because if God is loving, the best thing He can do is to take glory in Himself.

I do say though, biblically speaking, the early Christians had the mindset that they were to be counted as sheep for the slaughter, due to the persecutions. In Acts, there were many people persecuted for their faith and it says they went away rejoicing for being worthy enough to be persecuted for His name. It sounds insane, I know, I've been at the point where you are. However, I stand by what I said that until mankind sees their own evil, and the deepness and wickedness and deceitfulness of their own heart, they will never understand what I am saying. How do I know that? Because I have only been converted for approximately 1 year, but seeking the religion for 2.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

So what's with the Old Testament, such as Leviticus, Deuteronomy and parts of Numbers? I could've sworn they had parts where it said to kill everyone in a village if there was only 1 non-believer, to kill villages of non-believers and encourage rape. You know the contents of the bible quite well, certainly you're aware of all these incidents. They all have god commanding the killing.

Wow. Talk about taking things out of context. This is under the Old Testament law, these aren't Christians. The Bible states that through Moses we were given law, but under Christ we are given grace upon grace, grace and truth, love and mercy. Yet that Christ is coming again to judge the wicked, and He won't be coming with grace, but with wrath. And rightfully so.

But to answer your question, because the Old Testament required law, sins required sacrifice. Christ's sacrifice had not yet been completed, therefore, when people committed gross sins such as idolatry and refused to repent, the Lord would use people to kill them. Why? Because it was justice. Sin requires death, a sacrifice. Someone or something has to pay that debt. And in the Old Testament that is what we see. In each instance where God commands the death of people it is due to sin. Yet God demonstrates His love towards us in that while we were still sinners, He sent His Son to die for us. He sent Christ to take our sins, and be our propitiation. He dealt with our sins, Christ was the sacrifice, and He dealt with them Himself. He didn't just "forgive" or "look over" our sins. He completed our forgiveness JUSTLY. I still say, Christ's death is worse than all those people who died in the Old Testament. Yet the best thing to happen for us sinners.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

Yes, for the most part, Christ did promote this but not god in the Old Testament.

Christ is revealed in the Old Testament. The Old Testament also reveals our guilt, and reveals God's wrath against sinners, which without any wrath, without any hell, without any punishment, there is no mercy, there is no grace, and there is no forgiveness. If there were not God's righteous and holy anger towards sin, we wouldn't know His love. In the same way, we cannot know what Heaven is without there being a Hell.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I think you're missing one key thing: god made Lucifer and god is all-knowing, so it makes sense god knew what would've happened. As usual, if god didn't know, he isn't all-knowing.

I am missing a key? This whole time I have said that God has decreed everything to happen. God is absolutely, 100% sovereign. God decreed the fall. God decreed sin. Yet man, paradoxically, acted in their own freewill to sin against God. The same goes with Lucifer. And yet without Lucifer, we would not know how good God is. It all plays a purpose. Say you like pizza a lot. If I fed you pizza from birth, you wouldn't know how good pizza is because you have nothing comparably.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

People willingly choose hell? This is a part I don't understand. God made humans and god is all-knowing, so surely he'd know which humans won't obey him. By that reason, hell serves as a punishment. However, god has the ability to create people in a way for all them to believe and worship him, so hell would then be pretty much empty. But god didn't do that, he purposely made some people not believe at all. Point is, if god made everyone, knows everything and can do everything, is it really people choosing to go hell or is it god having them choose hell?

I've answered this in above questions, also read Romans 9.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

HAHAHA. Oh that made me laugh by you using the word "illogical" in part of your religious argument.

Ok.

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

Why? For him to have created so many evil things on this world, does that not mean some part of him is evil or at least he has a partially evil mindset? He made good things too but for the evil things to exist, does that not make him both evil and good?

Nope, God is good entirely good if all things work for His glory, if He is loving. Simply, we don't understand. A 3 year old doesn't understand the purpose of pain. It feels something hot, and it hurts, it makes the child cry. But the child grows up the child begins to understand that this pain is good, because without this pain, the child would burn himself, and potentially die (depending on what it is). If we are debating about the things of God, we should realize that there are things we are not going to understand about God. How can something finite understand an infinite mind, unless it be directly revealed? And if God so chooses not to reveal it, who are we to question? I don't see strawberry pop-tarts angry off at their maker for not making them cinnamon. What is formed has no right to say to it's potter, what has Your hand done? Rather, when we believe, there are certain things, as in all things even outside religion, must be taken solely by faith.

A God who would send His Son to save a wretched unfaithful sinner like me is deserving of all praise. I do nothing but blaspheme His name, yet He loved me and gave Himself for me. I know no other love greater than this.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by mewithYou

I am not amazed you feel this way. I once thought myself to be the same. Others thought myself the same as well. In fact, by the worlds standard I was a moral kid. I thought I loved everyone, I wanted everyone to be happy, but then as I began to become more introvert and actually question my morals, and questioning my reasonings, and no doubt, I believe when God opened my eyes, I saw that I failed in all these regards. That I was selfish, hateful, proud, arrogant, etc. I do not doubt I had love, but it is not a genuine love that I feel now, or that is growing in me now. Even towards people I dislike, I have a love that I did not once have, though I thought I had.

I do not claim to know you better than yourself, but I do claim that God does, and that the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful. And I do claim that man's judgment is not flawless.

You think me an ignorant child then?

Originally Posted by mewithYou

God completely ordained all things, yet man willingly rejects Him, but will never come to Him on their own. Paradox? Yes. Can I explain it? No. But I trust God is just and believe that He does what is right and acceptable. It's not for me to question, but to simply rest on Christ and to tell others of the good news of the Gospel imploring them to trust Christ's sacrifice because Christ would have mercy on all people, and in fact has had mercy on all people, but is waiting for them. Yet they willing reject Him and will continue to do so unless by God's grace. Again, I understand this is illogical. But it is how the Bible is.

I would argue differently. As an intelligent being you have a moral obligation to use your intellect to the fullest. By choosing not to question that which bears questioning, you are necessarily abandoning that duty. By tying your allegiance to something you do not understand you risk supporting that which does not deserve your fealty, and risk making yourself culpable in its wrongdoing. Regardless of god, morality demands that you exercise your judgment to its fullest. Failing to do so is an abandonment of duty.

[ICantCreateACoolUsername]

you can't make yourself believe in something that you don't.

[Utterly_Alone]

I just think that people cling to the idea of a God and a meaningful afterlife because they can't face the idea that maybe... just maybe we all fade back into the universe after death. People need a reason to live or there would be no hope. Hope is the only reason we all stay alive. Because we HOPE we can find some way to avoid death... Or we HOPE that if we 'live the good life' we'll go to heaven where everything is perfect. The issue with THAT whole thing is, Human nature won't allow us to accept perfection completely and that may be another reason why people doubt their God. Humans are drawn to pai destruction because it gives us something to do. If everything on the earth were perfect, I think people would lose hope in living. The only sensible way to live in this world is for others... to comfort others and convince them that if they do good they might live forever somewhere.
I am not a strong believer in anything in particular, but I love studying religion and other people's opinions. I mix them all together to make a conclusion that can be changed if another idea that makes sense fits too.
It's all about what you want to believe. Personally, I think whatever you believe happens to you after you die will happen to you.
Anyway... that's my opinion.

[TheWhiteTornado]

I'm kinda only responding to the original post as religious debates depress me, so yeah
I personally believe in the clockmaker theory in which some god created the universe and all that good stuff and left it at that to pan out as nature intended. Yeah, the world sucks at times, but the majority of the time it's caused by people making bad decisions or just nature occurring (starvation is a harsh reality, but some places of the world are just deprived in that sense and it's bound to happen).

[Marguerite]

Originally Posted by Sythan

It doesn't matter if you are in California or Alabama, we control the Government, not the other way around.

Well congrats, I'm sorry man, I wouldn't have questioned you if I had have known you played such a big part in helping give Americans the right to free speech, freedom of religion, medicine, food, water, the right to vote and all those other perks you threw in just because you're that kind of a guy. I do wonder though how you got the courage to stand up to the government when in all likelihood you would have gotten killed. Weren't you worried about putting your children in danger? It must have been hard to fight when you could barely find water, let alone food, but hey, you tried to grow a pair and grow you did man! You mangaged to starve off all those diseases without medical care, you managed to challenge powerful leaders in a country where you didn't even have the right to speak negatively about the government! I so envy you. God bless California and God bless you!

Why don't you just go get on a plane to africa and whip those weak little African kids into shape! Hey, they gotta learn, they can't remain coward forever. They need to take a page out of your book.

[BDF]

Simple answer quoted by a friend of mine once:

"Because people were given free will"

We can choose what we do with ourselves, and the more control we ascertain over our environment the less control god has of it.

[Sythan]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

Well congrats, I'm sorry man, I wouldn't have questioned you if I had have known you played such a big part in helping give Americans the right to free speech, freedom of religion, medicine, food, water, the right to vote and all those other perks you threw in just because you're that kind of a guy. I do wonder though how you got the courage to stand up to the government when in all likelihood you would have gotten killed. Weren't you worried about putting your children in danger? It must have been hard to fight when you could barely find water, let alone food, but hey, you tried to grow a pair and grow you did man! You mangaged to starve off all those diseases without medical care, you managed to challenge powerful leaders in a country where you didn't even have the right to speak negatively about the government! I so envy you. God bless California and God bless you!

Why don't you just go get on a plane to africa and whip those weak little African kids into shape! Hey, they gotta learn, they can't remain coward forever. They need to take a page out of your book.

First of all, in America we have the right to impeach our representatives or even the President if they fail to protect our Freedoms. I'm not sure how it works in Australia, but here, we control the Government.

America also has something called the "Peace Corps" that travels the world helping underpriveleged and starving children and people, giving them food, water, medicine, and a free education, generally trying to make their lives better. What have YOU done?

What does California have to do with this? "God Bless California"? Okay......

[Marguerite]

Originally Posted by Sythan

First of all, in America we have the right to impeach our representatives or even the President if they fail to protect our Freedoms. I'm not sure how it works in Australia, but here, we control the Government.

America also has something called the "Peace Corps" that travels the world helping underpriveleged and starving children and people, giving them food, water, medicine, and a free education, generally trying to make their lives better. What have YOU done?

What does California have to do with this? "God Bless California"? Okay......

I'm not talking about America... I was talking about YOU personally. You completely missed the point. I was just saying that it is completely rich of someone who lives in America (or Australia or the UK or Canada or France or any other place in the first world) to say that someone wouldn't be living in poverty and war if they 'grew a pair'.

Then to say that hey, it doesn't matter if you live in California or Alabama (huge difference), you control the government, as if you play some part in that, is ridiculous. You live in a free country by luck of birth, not because you're courageous or braver than people in the third world.

What have I done? Nothing, I live in a free, wealthy country where I'm not afraid of my government. It has nothing to do with me, I was just extremely lucky to be born here.

Oh and by the way, are you a part of the Peace Corps, is that why you feel as if you can take credit for it? Or are you just bringing it up for no reason and pretending that you're responsibile for third world aid?

[Lugez]

Suffering serves many purposes in life, that's why. Life is about experiencing good and bad.

Could you imagine if life was perfect? We would never learn or know anything.

[Sythan]

Originally Posted by Marguerite

I'm not talking about America... I was talking about YOU personally. You completely missed the point. I was just saying that it is completely rich of someone who lives in America (or Australia or the UK or Canada or France or any other place in the first world) to say that someone wouldn't be living in poverty and war if they 'grew a pair'.

Then to say that hey, it doesn't matter if you live in California or Alabama (huge difference), you control the government, as if you play some part in that, is ridiculous. You live in a free country by luck of birth, not because you're courageous or braver than people in the third world.

What have I done? Nothing, I live in a free, wealthy country where I'm not afraid of my government. It has nothing to do with me, I was just extremely lucky to be born here.

Oh and by the way, are you a part of the Peace Corps, is that why you feel as if you can take credit for it? Or are you just bringing it up for no reason and pretending that you're responsibile for third world aid?

I think we both misunderstand eachother.

I meant people in places like America should stop complaining about things when we can change it. Which is where the impeachment came up, and what I meant by grow a pair.

Obviously people in third world countries can't stand up for themselves, we have to help them.

My both my uncles and my aunt are apart of the Peace Corps, so I know what they do. I never took credit for it.

Whether you live in California or Alabama, the People control the Local, State, and Federal Government by electing representatives, both in our State Assembly and the Federal Senate and Congress. If at any time they fail to do what the people want, we have the right and power to take their power away. So we do control the government, sure I was born in America, im thankful for that, still doesn't take away the power to oust elected officials.

[Noctis]

Originally Posted by LostTeen011

I really want to believe God is real, but I just can't see how. If God is real why is there so much disaster and heartache in this world. If he's the loving God as portrayed in the Bible why are all of those events taking place. Why are there innocent people starving and dying from illness? Why are evil people getting away with their plots and schemes? Why is their so much science to prove he doesn't exist otherwise?

This might sound strange coming from an atheist, but I don't agree with your reasoning.

If God was real, I demand that he do nothing whatsoever. The logic being to teach humanity to appreciate the good things and not take them for granted, for we shall were to to be constantly spoon fed by a higher being. The other reason being that the name of the place we live in is called "Earth" and not "Heaven". I also think it's too much to ask that a higher being clean up our mess simply because humanity as a whole don't do it ourselves.

Science does not disprove the existence of God. It merely suggests that the existence of God is unlikely. To be more accurate, it does not support the existence of God in particular. At the very best science could hint at the existence of a higher being, but not necessarily God, as it could just as likely be Zeus or Gaea, and not even a single higher being. If anything, science would be more supportive of the existence of multiple higher beings, as it would be a more daunting task to disprove the existence of multiple higher beings than to disprove the existence of God in particular.

[Marguerite]

Originally Posted by Sythan

I think we both misunderstand eachother.

I meant people in places like America should stop complaining about things when we can change it. Which is where the impeachment came up, and what I meant by grow a pair.

Obviously people in third world countries can't stand up for themselves, we have to help them.

My both my uncles and my aunt are apart of the Peace Corps, so I know what they do. I never took credit for it.

Whether you live in California or Alabama, the People control the Local, State, and Federal Government by electing representatives, both in our State Assembly and the Federal Senate and Congress. If at any time they fail to do what the people want, we have the right and power to take their power away. So we do control the government, sure I was born in America, im thankful for that, still doesn't take away the power to oust elected officials.

Okay, I apologise for being a dick lol. I agree with you.

[tyler m]

Originally Posted by LostTeen011

I really want to believe God is real, but I just can't see how. If God is real why is there so much disaster and heartache in this world. If he's the loving God as portrayed in the Bible why are all of those events taking place. Why are there innocent people starving and dying from illness? Why are evil people getting away with their plots and schemes? Why is their so much science to prove he doesn't exist otherwise?

I know what you mean, but you really have to read the bible to understand it. it is because of the original sin that Adam and Eve committed. If that hadn't happened, every thing would be fine. Btw, what sort of science are you talking about that disproves that there is a God?

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by tyler m

I know what you mean, but you really have to read the bible to understand it. it is because of the original sin that Adam and Eve committed. If that hadn't happened, every thing would be fine. Btw, what sort of science are you talking about that disproves that there is a God?

What Adam and Eve supposedly did wasn't wrong. They were punished for wanting to understand good and evil; that is never wrong. The search for knowledge is one of the best traits of humans, not one that deserves punishment. It is god that should be called to answer for wanting to keep humanity in ignorance.

[PSY]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

What Adam and Eve supposedly did wasn't wrong. They were punished for wanting to understand good and evil; that is never wrong. The search for knowledge is one of the best traits of humans, not one that deserves punishment. It is god that should be called to answer for wanting to keep humanity in ignorance.

There was no concept of evil/sin in Adam's and Eve's minds until they ate the forbidden fruit. That failure to obey God led to the creation of evil as we know it. So while the search for knowledge is great and all, there would not have been any need to know of evil if we had not sinned against God in the first place. All would have been perfect in this world. So now we DO need to understand what is good and what is evil. Unfortunately, that is something every person struggles with for the entirety of their life, regardless of what your morals or religious values may be. Personally, I would rather live in blissful ignorance, knowing nothing but good in this world, than to live in the world I live in now, where I am all too aware of the evil that surrounds me and tempts me to sin against God.

I'm not going to respond to the OP because... well, I can't word my response as eloquently as I would like. There are many Christians who write about God and evolution, God and free will, God and suffering, etc. If you wish to search for knowledge, then I urge you to visit a bookstore and pick up some books by well-known apologetics authors.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by PSY

There was no concept of evil/sin in Adam's and Eve's minds until they ate the forbidden fruit. That failure to obey God led to the creation of evil as we know it. So while the search for knowledge is great and all, there would not have been any need to know of evil if we had not sinned against God in the first place. All would have been perfect in this world. So now we DO need to understand what is good and what is evil. Unfortunately, that is something every person struggles with for the entirety of their life, regardless of what your morals or religious values may be. Personally, I would rather live in blissful ignorance, knowing nothing but good in this world, than to live in the world I live in now, where I am all too aware of the evil that surrounds me and tempts me to sin against God.

So if you could choose to be a pig instead of a human - trading your difficult human life for the blissfully simple one of a pig - you would? Kant discusses exactly this question in his Metaphysics of Morals and I've posed this question to a lot of people: not one I've talked to said that they would prefer the life of a happy pig, even those who are generally unhappy with their lives.

Another problem: how do you qualify perfect? Speaking for myself, a life of total ignorance is the opposite of perfect. Without any notion of struggle or challenge I would find life monumentally dreary, even meaningless. How could you appreciate anything of value in your life without anything else to compare it against? What real value is there in loving someone or being loved if you've never experienced anything else?

Another problem: eating the fruit didn't create evil. That's absurd by definition. "Evil" means doing something that is morally reprehensible; if evil didn't exist then neither did any sense of morality, not just in Adam and Eve's minds but in God's.

[noveras]

I'm a Muslim an in Islam God has given us free will to do good and obey Him or be evil and disobey him.In the Quran God has stated that He will not change the fate of any race unless they changed it for them self.

I found that many people especially the westerner questioned God because they can't find the answer in the Bible but make no effort in finding answers in other religion.Till now the Quran have never let me down

P.S : Not Trying To Undermine Christianity But I Just Said What I Have Learned From My Own Experience When I Used To Question The Same Thing

[xMikelex24]

In the Bible it says that things like natural disasters must occur, because that is how He made the Earth. These processes the Earth goes through keep it alive and suitable for life.

People who do evil and have not accepted Jesus as their savior WILL be punished. Perhaps not in this life, but when they die they will be sent to hell for eternal damnation, which is much worse than any punishment on Earth.

I hate to see God blamed for everything bad that happens to people. Where's the credit when he does miraculous, beautiful, and good things every day for us, and we do not care, notice, or appreciate them?

The Lord is reliable, but science is not. Science is dispproved and new theories emerge everyday. People do not understand, they are ignorant and therefore seek an explanation to dissprove the existence of God.

I answered these the best I can, of course no one has all of the answers. However if you have any questions, I've found this site very useful: gotquestions.org

[xMikelex24]

"I think you're missing one key thing: god made Lucifer and god is all-knowing, so it makes sense god knew what would've happened. As usual, if god didn't know, he isn't all-knowing. "


Lucifer was once an angel of God, from what I understand. But God also gives freewill, and for a reason I admittedly do not know, Lucifer went against God so He kicked him out of Heaven. Of course He did know this would happen, but it was Lucifer's own choice.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by xMikelex24

In the Bible it says that things like natural disasters must occur, because that is how He made the Earth. These processes the Earth goes through keep it alive and suitable for life.

Couldn't an all-powerful god make a world that could sustain itself without natural disasters?

Originally Posted by xMikelex24

People who do evil and have not accepted Jesus as their savior WILL be punished. Perhaps not in this life, but when they die they will be sent to hell for eternal damnation, which is much worse than any punishment on Earth.

And that doesn't strike you as something worth perhaps objecting to?

Originally Posted by xMikelex24

I hate to see God blamed for everything bad that happens to people. Where's the credit when he does miraculous, beautiful, and good things every day for us, and we do not care, notice, or appreciate them?

Are you kidding? He gets creditted for these things all the time. The real question is: why is he creditted at all when we know full well how such things happen without needing to invoke a god?

Originally Posted by xMikelex24

The Lord is reliable, but science is not. Science is dispproved and new theories emerge everyday. People do not understand, they are ignorant and therefore seek an explanation to dissprove the existence of God.

Science is constantly refining and improving its understanding of the universe, and learns to make accurate predictions amount the world to demonstrate the validity of its claims. The Christian god is a millenia-old myth from a primitive tribe, the telling of which was amalgamated from earlier myths told by other primitive tribes. There are many sensible places in the world to look for wisdom, but I would say that's not one of them.

[Sythan]

Originally Posted by xMikelex24

"I think you're missing one key thing: god made Lucifer and god is all-knowing, so it makes sense god knew what would've happened. As usual, if god didn't know, he isn't all-knowing. "


Lucifer was once an angel of God, from what I understand. But God also gives freewill, and for a reason I admittedly do not know, Lucifer went against God so He kicked him out of Heaven. Of course He did know this would happen, but it was Lucifer's own choice.

Lucifer and Satan are 2 different beings, Lucifer appeared thousands of years before Christianity when he was worshipped as his name suggests "The Bringer of Light", the Christianity took him, along with countless other Gods and Goddesses, and turned them into Demons. Satan has always been Satan, his name literally means "The Accuser" and he punished people according to God's will after they died.

Satan rebelled against God in an attempt to get humanity to see the truth, not just the truth God told them but the truth they judged for themselves.

Even when Satan knew he would lose, he still fought. He believed in his cause so much he fought against unwinnable odds and was cast out.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by Sythan

Lucifer and Satan are 2 different beings, Lucifer appeared thousands of years before Christianity when he was worshipped as his name suggests "The Bringer of Light", the Christianity took him, along with countless other Gods and Goddesses, and turned them into Demons. Satan has always been Satan, his name literally means "The Accuser" and he punished people according to God's will after they died.

Satan rebelled against God in an attempt to get humanity to see the truth, not just the truth God told them but the truth they judged for themselves.

Even when Satan knew he would lose, he still fought. He believed in his cause so much he fought against unwinnable odds and was cast out.

This has always been my favourite interpretation of the genesis myth.

[Sythan]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

This has always been my favourite interpretation of the genesis myth.

It's pretty obvious when you look at it from the other side that Satan was doing nothing more than trying to get Adam and Eve to make their own assumptions and determinations, not just what God told them to do and what God dictated was truth.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by xMikelex24

In the Bible it says that things like natural disasters must occur, because that is how He made the Earth. These processes the Earth goes through keep it alive and suitable for life.

Natural disasters occur, for lack of a better term, randomly. According to you, god let random processes occur and didn't carefully shape anything. Not all them keep it suitable for life. Tornadoes and hurricanes have no advantage at all, they only harm. I fail to see your point.

Originally Posted by xMikelex24

People who do evil and have not accepted Jesus as their savior WILL be punished. Perhaps not in this life, but when they die they will be sent to hell for eternal damnation, which is much worse than any punishment on Earth.

I always find it amazing that people such as yourself can say these things yet find the belief to be amazing. What is amazing about a belief that says if you don't obey, you will die?

Originally Posted by xMikelex24

I hate to see God blamed for everything bad that happens to people. Where's the credit when he does miraculous, beautiful, and good things every day for us, and we do not care, notice, or appreciate them?

What world are you living in? God is accredited for countless beneficial and positive things. Have you never heard someone say "thank god...."?

Originally Posted by xMikelex24

The Lord is reliable, but science is not. Science is dispproved and new theories emerge everyday. People do not understand, they are ignorant and therefore seek an explanation to dissprove the existence of God.

I don't understand this. People such as yourself who go against science so boldly have not a clue what science is. It is NEVER proved nor disproved. Anytime someone says such a statement, it generally means they don't know what science is. I don't understand how you can be against something you don't understand. Also, science is not used to disprove the existence of god because there is no way to test any hypothesis and theory.

It's quite fitting that you mentioned this word because it describes you right now: ignorant. No clue what science is and no clue what it isn't used for. Everyone is ignorant in some way so don't pretend you're not by giving such a statement. You have no clue on the basic definition of science, its limitations and it would do you good to learn such basic information. I thought schools teach science; either your school does and you're showing how ignorant you are or your school doesn't, in which case I pity you.

Your religion is a set of stories and myths, translated countless times with meaning gradually lost. It applied in a completely different sociopolitical and historical setting, with many features of modern-day life not accounted by the bible. Christianity ultimately answers questions by saying "god did done it, don't question how, believe, BELIEVE!!!!!". Science questions how and thus, allows for information to be refined, re-gathered, re-analyzed, etc... .

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by John 6:29

God completely ordained all things, yet man willingly rejects Him, but will never come to Him on their own. Paradox? Yes. Can I explain it? No. But I trust God is just and believe that He does what is right and acceptable. It's not for me to question, but to simply rest on Christ and to tell others of the good news of the Gospel imploring them to trust Christ's sacrifice because Christ would have mercy on all people, and in fact has had mercy on all people, but is waiting for them. Yet they willing reject Him and will continue to do so unless by God's grace. Again, I understand this is illogical. But it is how the Bible is.

In fact, consider Judas, yet again. The scriptures 3,000 years before Christ ever existed prophesied about Judas betrayal of Christ. It was therefore ordained by God because if Judas had not betrayed Christ, Christ would not have been put over and would not have rescued sinners. Yet Judas, as scriptures proved, acted in accordance to his own will, though under the power of Satan, ordained by God. I don't understand it. But there are many things I don't understand, but I still believe in them, as does everyone. Even the smartest person alive can be dumbfounded by the question, "Why?" or "How?"

Circular Logic. Your opinion that God exists because of these reasons is based upon the premise that God exists. I can't really respond to much more tonight, it's getting late, but on that last point: You're limiting yourself. Instead of saying 'I don't understand x, so let's try and work it out!" you say "I don't understand this. Obviously God did it for a reason and I should be content.". We should never be content with what we know, and your argument that even the smartest person alive can not understand everything doesn't actually prove that there is a God that does.

Originally Posted by PSY

There was no concept of evil/sin in Adam's and Eve's minds until they ate the forbidden fruit. That failure to obey God led to the creation of evil as we know it. So while the search for knowledge is great and all, there would not have been any need to know of evil if we had not sinned against God in the first place. All would have been perfect in this world. So now we DO need to understand what is good and what is evil. Unfortunately, that is something every person struggles with for the entirety of their life, regardless of what your morals or religious values may be. Personally, I would rather live in blissful ignorance, knowing nothing but good in this world, than to live in the world I live in now, where I am all too aware of the evil that surrounds me and tempts me to sin against God.

If they had no knowledge of Good or Evil, Wrong or Right, then how could they know that disobeying God was wrong?

Originally Posted by Sythan

Lucifer and Satan are 2 different beings, Lucifer appeared thousands of years before Christianity when he was worshipped as his name suggests "The Bringer of Light", the Christianity took him, along with countless other Gods and Goddesses, and turned them into Demons. Satan has always been Satan, his name literally means "The Accuser" and he punished people according to God's will after they died.

Satan rebelled against God in an attempt to get humanity to see the truth, not just the truth God told them but the truth they judged for themselves.

Even when Satan knew he would lose, he still fought. He believed in his cause so much he fought against unwinnable odds and was cast out.

I sort of believe that. I don't believe that he's real, but I agree with that interpretation.

[Megan1]

When God made the world, He made it without sin, death, wars, crimes, or anything bad. That was the way that it was made to be. When God made the first two humans, Adam and Eve, He loved them (just like He loves all humans) and wanted them to love Him back and have a relationship with Him. But the problem was, love is a choice. Love isn't something that you can force on someone, because if you could, it wouldn't really be love. So, in order to have Adam and Eve actually love Him and not just be mindless robots who obeyed Him because they had no other choice, He decided to give them a choice. He did this by puttng a bunch of trees in the garden that they lived in. He told them that they could eat fruit from any of the trees, except for the one in the very center of the garden. That was how He gave them the choice to love Him- if they loved Him, they would obey Him and stay away from that tree. However, they didn't. They ate from that tree and sin/evil entered the world.

Let's put it this way.......

Do you believe in heat? Obviously your answer is probably yes. Do you believe in cold? If you said yes, that's where you're wrong. The word "cold" is something that humans made up, and the definition is "absence of heat". The word cold just means that there is no heat there.

Do you believe in light? Once again, you're answer is probably yes. Do you believe in darkness? Well, if you said yes you would be wrong again. Darkness is a term that people made up, and the meaning of it is "absence of light". The word dark just means that there is no light there.

It's the same with good and evil. Do you believe in good things? You probably do, because good things have probably happened to you before. Well, the bible said that all good things are of God. Do you believe in bad/evil things? Obviously you do because you started this thread asking why bad things happen if there is a God. Well, the word "bad" really just means an absence of good things. So if good things = God, then bad things = lack of God. The reason that evil is in this world is because God gave us a choice to love Him, and someone people chose not to. When you choose not to have God, He is absent from your life. Wherever there is an absence of God (good things), there is evil. If everybody chose God and chose to follow His commandments (love each other, do not kill, do not hate, do not hold grudges, do not lie, do not leave your husband/wife, treat your families right.....and that is only a few of them), there would be no more lack of God (a.k.a. evil). The reason that there is evil is because there is a lack of God, because some people choose not to have God.