Is Satan Such A Bad Guy?

[Cosmo]

Okay I was thinking about this for a while and I actually came to the conclusion that Satan is more worthy of worship than God. This is just my opinion, but here goes:

• God gave Adam and Eve an impossible choice - they had no knowledge of right or wrong, so they therefore would inevitably take the apple - God obviously wanted humans to disobey him.
• Satan is the essence of freedom. Cast from heaven for refusing to obey God.
• Satan gives us the ability to choose right from wrong - God expects us to blindly obey and follow.
• He has never killed anybody, been responsible for anybody's death nor ordered anyone's deaths - he has a lower bodycount than God.

In summary: He gave us knowledge, the ability to make true moral judgements. He gave us the ability to decide who we are, free will. The very reason we are here, despite the war and death that do happen in this world, he gave us the ability to make these choices.

So, thoughts?

[Sythan]

I agree, infact that is my belief in Satan.

Knowing he would fall he still fought for the freedom of Humanity to decide their own fate, make their own judgements and allow us to decide what our own Truth was, instead of the truth dictated by God.

Looking at the entire Bible, Satan never did anything wrong. He opposed someone he thought of as a Tyrant, that's all.

[sassygurlone]

I don't believe in God or Satan (well not the God you are talking about anyway) what I will say is this is going to raise a HUGE dispute, but you probably already know that.

[Gymnophoria]

I think your logic here is really good and I can see where you get it from. I don't believe in God or Satan so my opinion doesn't really count here, I don't think.
But I do agree with Nicole, expect a lot of argument over this.

[BDF]

Interesting.

Satan... has almost always been berated in the Bible and by people, media, books, paintings etc. Almost like a form of propaganda. It's good to see the complete opposite side of the argument.

[Eldora]

Reminds me of Prometheus of the ancient Greek pantheon. He created man, and brought fire to them so that they could grow and develop and keep from dying, yet he was punished by Zeus and was tied to a rock to have his liver picked out every single day for the rest of eternity, because of his kindness.

I was reading a bit of the Bible last night, to try and see a bit more of what my mom believed and try and understand it. It was St. Matthew 4:1-10, where Satan supposedly 'tempted' Jesus with bread. However, looking back, I think that if I'd been anywhere around a man that hadn't eaten for forty days and forty nights, I'd have been trying to get him to eat something, too. I mean, it must have appeared to him like Jesus was starving himself, didn't it?

The only bad thing about worshipping Satan, in my book, is that you can't worship Satan and not believe in God, at least to a degree.

[Kira-Kira]

well as a christain i do believe we have or right and wrongs so i think satan was just a place god made to show us the punishment but i dont believe he's a bad guy so he made wrong choice apperently but we all make bad choices does that make us saints or whatever but jesus died for our sin as a chirstain thats what i beleve and somtimes i dont always believe christain ways like i should if God didnt want to have us do things he wouldnt put it in our minds or make ppl invent things

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Okay I was thinking about this for a while and I actually came to the conclusion that Satan is more worthy of worship than God. This is just my opinion, but here goes:

Except God made Satan and Satan acted in accordance to God's purpose for him. So you're logic doesn't work.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

God gave Adam and Eve an impossible choice - they had no knowledge of right or wrong, so they therefore would inevitably take the apple - God obviously wanted humans to disobey him.

Wrong again. Why do you think the tree of knowledge of good and evil was ever placed in the garden in the first place? And second of all, where did the knowledge come from after they ate if God is the creator of all things, including that knowledge? And again, if Satan was acting in accordance with God's purpose for him, God intended to give man this knowledge. And yes, this is supported scripturally, implied, that is.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Satan is the essence of freedom. Cast from heaven for refusing to obey God.

Again, so Satan chose something God didn't allow? That God didn't create? That's logically impossible. For example, I can drink, or I can not drink. I have no other choice unless God made another choice. Even if I sip a drink, I'm drinking, but if I'm doing nothing, I'm not drinking. There's no option. Satan had the choice to obey, or disobey, both options given to him by God and purposed by God.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Satan gives us the ability to choose right from wrong - God expects us to blindly obey and follow.

Wrong again. God placed the tree in the garden and told them not to eat of it. If God didn't want to give them the choice, He would not have placed it there.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

He has never killed anybody, been responsible for anybody's death nor ordered anyone's deaths - he has a lower bodycount than God.[/list]

First of all, according to your logic, Satan is the author of sin. If Satan is the author of sin, and the wages of sin is death, Satan is responsible for everyones death.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

So, thoughts?

Horribly inaccurate representation of the Bible, and completely and utterly logically inconsistent. I'm sorry if that comes off as rude, but I truly found some of this laughable. Even if I didn't believe in God, it's just apparent you didn't give it much thought before posting. Just my two-cents anyways. I think you thought about this logically with what people say, rather than logically and what the Bible says.

[John 6:29]

Let me give you an example. Biblically, the most evil thing to happen in the Bible was wicked men killing the Son of God, Christ. Yet look at what the Bible says in account of this:

"Him [Christ], being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God [completely purposed by God], ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain [yet wicked men freely killed him, even though God purposed them to]."

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by John 6:29

Except God made Satan and Satan acted in accordance to God's purpose for him. So you're logic doesn't work.

Wrong again. Why do you think the tree of knowledge of good and evil was ever placed in the garden in the first place? And second of all, where did the knowledge come from after they ate if God is the creator of all things, including that knowledge? And again, if Satan was acting in accordance with God's purpose for him, God intended to give man this knowledge. And yes, this is supported scripturally, implied, that is.

Again, so Satan chose something God didn't allow? That God didn't create? That's logically impossible. For example, I can drink, or I can not drink. I have no other choice unless God made another choice. Even if I sip a drink, I'm drinking, but if I'm doing nothing, I'm not drinking. There's no option. Satan had the choice to obey, or disobey, both options given to him by God and purposed by God.

Wrong again. God placed the tree in the garden and told them not to eat of it. If God didn't want to give them the choice, He would not have placed it there.

First of all, according to your logic, Satan is the author of sin. If Satan is the author of sin, and the wages of sin is death, Satan is responsible for everyones death.

Horribly inaccurate representation of the Bible, and completely and utterly logically inconsistent. I'm sorry if that comes off as rude, but I truly found some of this laughable. Even if I didn't believe in God, it's just apparent you didn't give it much thought before posting. Just my two-cents anyways. I think you thought about this logically with what people say, rather than logically and what the Bible says.

For what it's worth, I'm finding your reply just as laughable.

Your entire argument essentially hinges on divine command theory, which really only holds up if you're willing to stick your head in the sand and completely ignore morality. Granted I already know that's your position, but it still renders you completely impervious to any reasonable discussion on the subject. I do understand the need to make god the author of morality; by any other measure you'd be worshipping the biggest dick history. Still, it's a proposition that immediately cripples you.

Past that though, your free will argument doesn't even make sense. You love spouting off about how humans deserve hell - that requires some moral judgement of some kind - so there's no reason we can't similarly judge the morality of Satan's actions. Whether Yahweh intended or foresaw them or not is entirely moot. And given that we're assuming that moral judgements are possible for the sake of actually having something to talk about, I'd more-or-less agree with Cosmonaut's assessment. Genesis 3:1-6 is actually my favourite passage in the bible for exactly this reason.

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

For what it's worth, I'm finding your reply just as laughable.

I don't mind. It's been a laughable stance for a little under 2,000 years. Why should I expect it not to be laughable to someone apart form Christ? I mean, heck, even Christ was ridiculed for His stance, laughed at, scoffed at, called a drunk, etc. who am I to expect different?

Originally Posted by Xujhan

Your entire argument essentially hinges on divine command theory, which really only holds up if you're willing to stick your head in the sand and completely ignore morality.

Not once did I even so much as hint as all those things are good, nor that I am excited, or rejoice over them. So you're perhaps assuming too much from what I've wrote. Despite this, my head isn't in the sand. Even if God were evil, that god would still have the right to do whatever He wanted because we're His creation. It doesn't matter if He provided no salvation. God is God. I'm nothing but a pawn, really, if I can even be considered that. And to be quite frank, I've become quite comfortable with being so.

Originally Posted by Xujhan

Granted I already know that's your position, but it still renders you completely impervious to any reasonable discussion on the subject. I do understand the need to make god the author of morality; by any other measure you'd be worshipping the biggest dick history. Still, it's a proposition that immediately cripples you.

Again, no you don't. Nor have I argued this. Notice that even in the verse I've provided above, it defines the men as wicked. How does that suggest that it's at all good? Or that because God allowed it, it is good?

Originally Posted by Xujhan

Past that though, your free will argument doesn't even make sense. You love spouting off about how humans deserve hell - that requires some moral judgement of some kind - so there's no reason we can't similarly judge the morality of Satan's actions. Whether Yahweh intended or foresaw them or not is entirely moot. And given that we're assuming that moral judgements are possible for the sake of actually having something to talk about, I'd more-or-less agree with Cosmonaut's assessment. Genesis 3:1-6 is actually my favourite passage in the bible for exactly this reason.

My freewill argument? lol. I don't even believe in man's will. So how is there any argument about freewill? I adamantly deny it. As I've said, God can do as He pleases. Take my religious views aside. Say I'm wrong. Say the Christian God does not exist. Say it's Allah. If Allah wishes place me in hell. So be it. He can do as He wishes. It's not my choice to question God, again, I'm just a creation. I count as nothing. And as I've said, I've come quite content with that. I've come to be satisfied in knowing that no matter what happens to me, it's what God has determined for me. Even if that means hell. Again, you may find that laughable, but it was laughable when Christ said it similar. So, who am I to expect different? You may think I'm blind. Oh well, I'd rather be blind and content than running after the miseries of this world as I've done the previous 20.5 years of my life. See, I may be blind. I may not understand why God kills people. I may not understand why God needed to send Christ. I may not understand why God created Satan. Heck, I don't even know why God created mankind, much less myself. But I have faith that God is the God of all grace and peace, and that all of this works out, despite my lack of understanding. Despite the scriptures which seem to contradict. I believe God's mind is higher than my mind, and that He needs not anyone to question Him. And I trust that all of this will end up how God wants it. And to me, that's comforting. So, if you find this laughable, as I'm sure you do, go ahead and laugh. I honestly do not care because I do not expect my posts to make any sense or to get through to you. As they never have. I am simply stating my opinion, my two-cents, not an argument as you so seem to think I am doing every time I post -- ironically, I didn't even ask for your opinion, yet you felt free to give it anyways. Perhaps you just like believing I am posting an argument? I'm not. As I clearly said in my post that it was just my two-cents. As if it could even be considered that much.

As far as humans deserving hell, yes I do believe that. However, as I've stated, God can do as He wants. It's not up to me to judge whether all mankind should go to hell, even if I believe they should. It's not for me to question. It's up to God, which if He is omniscient, as I believe, I do not expect to comprehend His mind in this life.

By the way, I'm not arguing anything so I don't know why you keep implying that I've posting arguments. I'm not. I'm simply stating what is biblically wrong, and you seem to always have an issue with that. Even in a thread about the Bible. It seems quite redundant to me. And if we were arguing about the Bible, logic does play a part, but I believe scripture itself plays a more important role than logic... even if it contradicts, or seemingly so. I mean apparently the teachings of Christ were so deranged from society that they stated he had a demon. So, I don't really think things have changed much since then. Even though people seem to think they have.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by John 6:29

Except God made Satan and Satan acted in accordance to God's purpose for him. So you're logic doesn't work.

Satan was cast out for leading a rebellion against God, so unless God wanted him to lead a rebellion against himself so that he could throw Lucifer out, your argument doesn't really make sense.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

Wrong again. Why do you think the tree of knowledge of good and evil was ever placed in the garden in the first place? And second of all, where did the knowledge come from after they ate if God is the creator of all things, including that knowledge? And again, if Satan was acting in accordance with God's purpose for him, God intended to give man this knowledge. And yes, this is supported scripturally, implied, that is.

Your paragraph has no meaning - it's just a meaningless string of words. I've read through it about 5 times, and got my brother to read through it, and I'm actually having trouble deciding if they mean anything. Your first question doesn't make sense - it was made to tempt them. The knowledge came from the tree which they ate from. If you believe that last bit, you believe that he punished us for something we have no control over. SOUNDS LIKE COOL DUDE AMIRITE?

Originally Posted by John 6:29

Again, so Satan chose something God didn't allow? That God didn't create? That's logically impossible. For example, I can drink, or I can not drink. I have no other choice unless God made another choice. Even if I sip a drink, I'm drinking, but if I'm doing nothing, I'm not drinking. There's no option. Satan had the choice to obey, or disobey, both options given to him by God and purposed by God.

Can God create a rock so heavy he cannot lift? The idea of being omnipotent, omnibenevolent etc. is a logical impossibility - and don't give me that bullshit about "God is beyond our logic" - that's a fucking sidestep of the entire point and makes anyone who says it look like a pussy, sorry.
Wrong again. God placed the tree in the garden and told them not to eat of it. If God didn't want to give them the choice, He would not have placed it there.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

First of all, according to your logic, Satan is the author of sin. If Satan is the author of sin, and the wages of sin is death, Satan is responsible for everyones death.

That is fucking horrible logic where did you find that, in the toilet? Satan is responsible for giving everyone the ability to make their own choices, their own morals and their own choices, and not have to follow God's tyranny.

[~Mr. Self Destruct~]

Satan means "opponent" in latin. Taking that as a given, an "opponent" does not suggest evil or wrong, it denotes a conflicting opinion to another party.
Of course I believe in neither Satan nor God, but I do take Satan, to some extent, to be a religious symbol of freedom from authoritarian figures and agendas. It is also patent that questioning authority at the time the bible was written was labelled as "petulance" (an immeddiate negative at the time). As attitudes have developed over human history, we come to recognize that submitting to authority is not always acceptable.
Indeed, Satan is not an enemy of humanity; humanity is an enemy of itself.

[Concrete Angel]

An incredibly interesting topic, and quite a number of interesting opinions. You put a very strong argument there MosterCosmonaut! I personally think that you have a very pertinent point. And, I somehow find myself agreeing with you.

But at the same time, it's kind of mixed, because that isn't the religion I follow. In my religion, there isn't really anything as heaven or hell. There is simply a higher power.

That being said, to answer or give my opinion on what you have put up, I do think it's a strong argument. That, which I do support.

Originally Posted by ~Mr. Self Destruct~

Satan means "opponent" in latin. Taking that as a given, an "opponent" does not suggest evil or wrong, it denotes a conflicting opinion to another party.
Satan is not an enemy of humanity; humanity is an enemy of itself.

Matt, I think this is a very relevant point. To this I agree, hands down.

[BDF]

I wouldn't draw on the bible for information to argue this topic.... obviously the bible would be the most biased document against Satan there is and ever was. Of course it's difficult to see it if you were brought up with the bible and believe everything in it... but you have to try and step back and see it from other's point of view. There's no one right or wrong, not when you're talking about more than one person.

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Satan was cast out for leading a rebellion against God, so unless God wanted him to lead a rebellion against himself so that he could throw Lucifer out, your argument doesn't really make sense.

It makes perfect sense if God planned redemption before the foundations of the world, which He did. Read Romans 9. Even in the passage I showed you, it tells us that God foreknew and predestined those men to kill Christ. The whole purpose of the universe, according to the Bible, is for God's redemption of His elect. To display the riches of His grace, something we'd know nothing of if the fall never happened. It makes perfect sense, and is completely in line with scripture, and is rather logical.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Your paragraph has no meaning - it's just a meaningless string of words. I've read through it about 5 times, and got my brother to read through it, and I'm actually having trouble deciding if they mean anything. Your first question doesn't make sense - it was made to tempt them. The knowledge came from the tree which they ate from. If you believe that last bit, you believe that he punished us for something we have no control over. SOUNDS LIKE COOL DUDE AMIRITE?

Seems to me like you understood it fine. You were arguing that Satan gave us the ability to choose, but if we have temptation, we have a choice. Without temptation, there is no choice. Thus God created the choice if he created the tree for temptation, not Satan. Satan just influenced man to make the wrong choice. Man could have made that choice without Satan. In fact, your logic makes no sense. If God gives us a command to obey, that does not mean we are forced to obey. If we had the choice to obey, there is an opportunity to disobey, thus again, God created both choices, not Satan.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Can God create a rock so heavy he cannot lift?

Have you read any secular philosophy at all? Because it honestly doesn't seem like it. Philosophers have answered these questions quite some time ago. As far as God being above our logic, there are many things, even in science, that don't make logical sense yet. It's not a completely faulted statement to say that God is above our logic, if He is. By the way, your question, isn't that big of a deal. There are many paradoxes in scripture, I'm surprised you didn't just quote a biblical passage, rather than quoting some redundant question that's already been answered.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

That is fucking horrible logic where did you find that, in the toilet? Satan is responsible for giving everyone the ability to make their own choices, their own morals and their own choices, and not have to follow God's tyranny.

LOL! Seriously man. Your arguments don't make any sense to me. Satan wouldn't have done ANY OF THAT if the choice was not given to Satan. So did Satan give Satan his own choice? OR did God? And was Satan's choice really even a choice? Or was it predetermined by God? You're essentially saying, "Satan did something that God didn't allow." Oh, okay. Well, if God knew Satan would rebel, why did God create Satan? Why did God even place the tree in the garden to tempt them? Why did God create man? Why did God have to predestine people, if God had not created Satan? That is, if Satan did what God did not want Satan to do, then why God predestine people before Satan was even created? Everyone follows God's "tyranny." Again, read Romans 9. God created everyone for a purpose. Some for evil, some for Good. No one escapes His will. And if we can, well, then God isn't really God, nor is He sovereign, which is one of the hierarchy messages of scripture.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by John 6:29

It makes perfect sense if God planned redemption before the foundations of the world, which He did. Read Romans 9. Even in the passage I showed you, it tells us that God foreknew and predestined those men to kill Christ. The whole purpose of the universe, according to the Bible, is for God's redemption of His elect. To display the riches of His grace, something we'd know nothing of if the fall never happened. It makes perfect sense, and is completely in line with scripture, and is rather logical.

Redemption in the form of sacrificing himself to appease his own ego, because of the sins that he created and allowed to exist in the world. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "His elect", but the bible doesn't exactly show much grace in it. Plenty of graceless stuff in there (http://www.evilbible.com/).

Originally Posted by John 6:29

Seems to me like you understood it fine. You were arguing that Satan gave us the ability to choose, but if we have temptation, we have a choice. Without temptation, there is no choice. Thus God created the choice if he created the tree for temptation, not Satan. Satan just influenced man to make the wrong choice. Man could have made that choice without Satan. In fact, your logic makes no sense. If God gives us a command to obey, that does not mean we are forced to obey. If we had the choice to obey, there is an opportunity to disobey, thus again, God created both choices, not Satan.

They had no knowledge of wrong or right before they ate from the tree - therefore they did not know if it was wrong or not to eat from it, just that God had told them not to - they didn't know whether or not it was wrong to disobey him. He gave them "choice" but in a sadistic way with only one eventual conclusion that they would, in the end, eat from the tree due to their lack of knowledge and be punished for it. It's like leaving a monkey with a box in a white padded room, then punishing him for opening it.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

Have you read any secular philosophy at all? Because it honestly doesn't seem like it. Philosophers have answered these questions quite some time ago. As far as God being above our logic, there are many things, even in science, that don't make logical sense yet. It's not a completely faulted statement to say that God is above our logic, if He is. By the way, your question, isn't that big of a deal. There are many paradoxes in scripture, I'm surprised you didn't just quote a biblical passage, rather than quoting some redundant question that's already been answered.

We don't understand something therefore God. Jeez, since when does the fact that we don't understand something at the present point mean that God is responsible? We used to believe the world was flat, and if Christianity had had it's way we'd still believe that - which we now know is false. There is no reason to presume that questions that baffle us presently will not be answered in the future. It is very faulty - because it sidesteps the question complete. It answers nothing, and is just a pussy way of dealing with the issues - "Yeah but um we don't understand God and stuff".

Originally Posted by John 6:29

LOL! Seriously man. Your arguments don't make any sense to me. Satan wouldn't have done ANY OF THAT if the choice was not given to Satan. So did Satan give Satan his own choice? OR did God? And was Satan's choice really even a choice? Or was it predetermined by God? You're essentially saying, "Satan did something that God didn't allow." Oh, okay. Well, if God knew Satan would rebel, why did God create Satan? Why did God even place the tree in the garden to tempt them? Why did God create man? Why did God have to predestine people, if God had not created Satan? That is, if Satan did what God did not want Satan to do, then why God predestine people before Satan was even created? Everyone follows God's "tyranny." Again, read Romans 9. God created everyone for a purpose. Some for evil, some for Good. No one escapes His will. And if we can, well, then God isn't really God, nor is He sovereign, which is one of the hierarchy messages of scripture.

• Either God isn't all-powerful, or God allows "evil" to exist in the world. One of the two.
• He did it to fill out his own sadistic plan - creating two people then punishing them for things they have no control over, then punish everyone else because they don't follow his rules, allow evil exist in the world and watch on with a packet of popcorn, and watch it all unfurl. And if God creates people for evil, he's pre-determinately deciding that whatever this person does they cannot escape eternal torture .
• Even if we suppose that God allowed Satan to rebel and allowed him that choice - the fact that he decided to rebel against God's rule is admirable, in my opinion.

[sassygurlone]

John 6:29
You are saying that God gives people the choice of what to do but that he has already plannedout what they are going to do. So if this is true, then no they don't have a choice.

[Xujhan]

Originally Posted by John 6:29

I don't mind. It's been a laughable stance for a little under 2,000 years. Why should I expect it not to be laughable to someone apart form Christ? I mean, heck, even Christ was ridiculed for His stance, laughed at, scoffed at, called a drunk, etc. who am I to expect different?

Actually he straight-up probably never existed, but we can go with that for now.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

Not once did I even so much as hint as all those things are good, nor that I am excited, or rejoice over them. So you're perhaps assuming too much from what I've wrote. Despite this, my head isn't in the sand. Even if God were evil, that god would still have the right to do whatever He wanted because we're His creation. It doesn't matter if He provided no salvation. God is God. I'm nothing but a pawn, really, if I can even be considered that.

He has the same 'right' to do as he wishes as we all do by virtue of being sentient being; more accurately said he has the ability. That doesn't absolve him of moral judgements.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

And to be quite frank, I've become quite comfortable with being so.

Putting all sarcasm aside for just a moment: I weep for you.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

Again, no you don't. Nor have I argued this. Notice that even in the verse I've provided above, it defines the men as wicked. How does that suggest that it's at all good? Or that because God allowed it, it is good?

This wasn't purely in response to the individual post you made; many times in past you've argued from what is essentially divine command theory in one form or another, and it's that standpoint I'm critiquing. If you've massively changed your views in the past couple weeks, I'd be interested to hear it. In case there's any confusion, by DCT I mean that god defines what is good/moral and evil/immoral. It wouldn't follow from that that anything that god allows must be good, so you seem to be making incorrect inferences.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

My freewill argument? lol. I don't even believe in man's will. So how is there any argument about freewill? I adamantly deny it. As I've said, God can do as He pleases. Take my religious views aside. Say I'm wrong. Say the Christian God does not exist. Say it's Allah. If Allah wishes place me in hell. So be it. He can do as He wishes. It's not my choice to question God, again, I'm just a creation. I count as nothing. And as I've said, I've come quite content with that. I've come to be satisfied in knowing that no matter what happens to me, it's what God has determined for me. Even if that means hell. Again, you may find that laughable, but it was laughable when Christ said it similar. So, who am I to expect different? You may think I'm blind. Oh well, I'd rather be blind and content than running after the miseries of this world as I've done the previous 20.5 years of my life. See, I may be blind. I may not understand why God kills people. I may not understand why God needed to send Christ. I may not understand why God created Satan. Heck, I don't even know why God created mankind, much less myself. But I have faith that God is the God of all grace and peace, and that all of this works out, despite my lack of understanding. Despite the scriptures which seem to contradict. I believe God's mind is higher than my mind, and that He needs not anyone to question Him. And I trust that all of this will end up how God wants it. And to me, that's comforting. So, if you find this laughable, as I'm sure you do, go ahead and laugh. I honestly do not care because I do not expect my posts to make any sense or to get through to you. As they never have. I am simply stating my opinion, my two-cents, not an argument as you so seem to think I am doing every time I post -- ironically, I didn't even ask for your opinion, yet you felt free to give it anyways. Perhaps you just like believing I am posting an argument? I'm not. As I clearly said in my post that it was just my two-cents. As if it could even be considered that much.

Denying free will is still an argument on the topic of free will; that's what I was saying. "Your denial of free will makes no sense in the context of the argument you're making." For what it's worth though, I don't find that laughable. I find it sad. If I didn't already despise religion, seeing it destroy someone's curiosity that utterly would convince me. Obviously I cannot say taht I'll pray for you, but I will cry for you.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

As far as humans deserving hell, yes I do believe that. However, as I've stated, God can do as He wants. It's not up to me to judge whether all mankind should go to hell, even if I believe they should. It's not for me to question. It's up to God, which if He is omniscient, as I believe, I do not expect to comprehend His mind in this life.

It is up to you. We all have the capability to judge, and on important questions of morality especially we have the duty to judge as best we can. If you come to the conclusion yourself, that's one thing; I'll likely disagree with you, but at least you've judged. If you take a position for no other reason than fealty to someone or something else espousing that position, that's irresponsible.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

By the way, I'm not arguing anything so I don't know why you keep implying that I've posting arguments. I'm not. I'm simply stating what is biblically wrong, and you seem to always have an issue with that. Even in a thread about the Bible. It seems quite redundant to me. And if we were arguing about the Bible, logic does play a part, but I believe scripture itself plays a more important role than logic... even if it contradicts, or seemingly so. I mean apparently the teachings of Christ were so deranged from society that they stated he had a demon. So, I don't really think things have changed much since then. Even though people seem to think they have.

It seems to me like it's a thread about the character Satan; the OP doesn't mention anywhere that he wants purely biblical viewpoints. But yes, I do have tendancy to point out what I think of as bad reasoning or bad arguments. You might call it my "meaning of life." I think that knowledge and understanding are two of the greatest pillars of human society, and as I dearly love humanity I think that knowledge and understanding are worth fighting for.

This does seem to be getting dangerously personal though. You're welcome to reply and I would be interested to read what you have to say, but for my part I'll probably leave it at this.

[Peppermint Tea.♥]

Originally Posted by Xujhan

Actually he straight-up probably never existed, but we can go with that for now.

My two-cents (aside from this, I'm not getting involved.

Historical evidence points that he did exist, Biblical evidence points that he was the son of God. So regardless of whether or not you believe in the Bible, if you agree with Roman texts (which tell us of every other historical figure we know about in that time period, like Julius Ceaser) then you have to agree that the man existed. Regardless of whether you believe in the Bible or not.

[dr2005]

I'll leave the debate between Michael and Fletcher for them to sort out (I get into too many arguments as it is anyway! ), but all I would say in passing is this: if you take the view that Satan has distanced himself from God by his actions and is actively working to ensure others end up in the same situation through temptation and sin, then he's about as good a guy as a con artist. Indeed, you could view the "nothing bad will happen if you eat the apple" incident as the first confidence trick on the books. On the other points raised by the OP, the choice to disobey God and take the fruit was not inevitable as far as I can tell nor is it a given that Satan gave us freedom and choice, and some support for those positions is required.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Okay I was thinking about this for a while and I actually came to the conclusion that Satan is more worthy of worship than God. This is just my opinion, but here goes:

• God gave Adam and Eve an impossible choice - they had no knowledge of right or wrong, so they therefore would inevitably take the apple - God obviously wanted humans to disobey him.
• Satan is the essence of freedom. Cast from heaven for refusing to obey God.
• Satan gives us the ability to choose right from wrong - God expects us to blindly obey and follow.
• He has never killed anybody, been responsible for anybody's death nor ordered anyone's deaths - he has a lower bodycount than God.

In summary: He gave us knowledge, the ability to make true moral judgements. He gave us the ability to decide who we are, free will. The very reason we are here, despite the war and death that do happen in this world, he gave us the ability to make these choices.

So, thoughts?

I don't agree Satan provided us with free will in the context of the bible. I say this because god's illogical position of being the most powerful being who controls all, denies free will so for Satan to give us free will, he would have to be more powerful.

I do agree though he has a much lower body count than god.

Originally Posted by Equanimity

well as a christain i do believe we have or right and wrongs so i think satan was just a place god made to show us the punishment

As a Christian you've shown you known diddly shit about your religion. Satan is not a place. The word you apparently don't know is Hell. In your amazingly detailed post, I'll give you credit for eventually saying Satan is "a guy". I assume god is another guy and the angels are guys as well, Adam and Eve were guys, Mary was a guy and so forth.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

My freewill argument? lol. I don't even believe in man's will. So how is there any argument about freewill? I adamantly deny it. As I've said, God can do as He pleases. Take my religious views aside. Say I'm wrong. Say the Christian God does not exist. Say it's Allah. If Allah wishes place me in hell. So be it. He can do as He wishes. It's not my choice to question God, again, I'm just a creation. I count as nothing. And as I've said, I've come quite content with that. I've come to be satisfied in knowing that no matter what happens to me, it's what God has determined for me. Even if that means hell. Again, you may find that laughable, but it was laughable when Christ said it similar. So, who am I to expect different? You may think I'm blind. Oh well, I'd rather be blind and content than running after the miseries of this world as I've done the previous 20.5 years of my life. See, I may be blind. I may not understand why God kills people. I may not understand why God needed to send Christ. I may not understand why God created Satan. Heck, I don't even know why God created mankind, much less myself. But I have faith that God is the God of all grace and peace, and that all of this works out, despite my lack of understanding. Despite the scriptures which seem to contradict. I believe God's mind is higher than my mind, and that He needs not anyone to question Him. And I trust that all of this will end up how God wants it. And to me, that's comforting. So, if you find this laughable, as I'm sure you do, go ahead and laugh. I honestly do not care because I do not expect my posts to make any sense or to get through to you. As they never have. I am simply stating my opinion, my two-cents, not an argument as you so seem to think I am doing every time I post -- ironically, I didn't even ask for your opinion, yet you felt free to give it anyways. Perhaps you just like believing I am posting an argument? I'm not. As I clearly said in my post that it was just my two-cents. As if it could even be considered that much.

You're not making it an argument, you're making it a soap opera. He's calling it an argument because you're disagreeing with what he has said, provided a rationale supporting it and some biblical evidence to support it. What is this whining about, you didn't ask him for his opinion yet he gave it anyway? I'm doing the same but this is all because it's a public forum we are all members of. If you want, tell me now so in the future, I'll ask you for your permission if I can give my opinion on something. Continue with the soap opera.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

It's up to God, which if He is omniscient, as I believe, I do not expect to comprehend His mind in this life.

Ah yes, the good ol' Christian cop-out being played yet again.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

And if we were arguing about the Bible, logic does play a part, but I believe scripture itself plays a more important role than logic... even if it contradicts, or seemingly so.

If scripture is more important than logic, even when there is a contradiction, this begs the question, does logic have any value at all? You've just said, if logically something is askew, it doesn't matter so what part does it play?

Originally Posted by John 6:29

It makes perfect sense if God planned redemption before the foundations of the world, which He did. Read Romans 9. Even in the passage I showed you, it tells us that God foreknew and predestined those men to kill Christ.
...
Satan gave us the ability to choose, but if we have temptation, we have a choice. Without temptation, there is no choice. Thus God created the choice if he created the tree for temptation, not Satan. Satan just influenced man to make the wrong choice.

I don't understand this because before you said you disagree with god providing free will yet now you changed your stance to a mix of disagreement-agreement. How can Satan, a being weaker than god, over-rule god's decision to not provide free will?

Originally Posted by John 6:29

Man could have made that choice without Satan. In fact, your logic makes no sense. If God gives us a command to obey, that does not mean we are forced to obey. If we had the choice to obey, there is an opportunity to disobey, thus again, God created both choices, not Satan.

Not exactly. As you mentioned that Romans 9 shows god pre-destined men to kill Christ, does god only predestine some people while giving others a choice? It's not making sense how god can both predestine people to do something while giving them a choice about obeying what he commands.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

Have you read any secular philosophy at all? Because it honestly doesn't seem like it. Philosophers have answered these questions quite some time ago. As far as God being above our logic, there are many things, even in science, that don't make logical sense yet.

Difference is science can uncover and make sense of things in time, whereas with god no such thing can happen.

Originally Posted by John 6:29

No one escapes His will. And if we can, well, then God isn't really God, nor is He sovereign, which is one of the hierarchy messages of scripture.

Didn't you just finish saying god gives choices and Satan can skew what we choose? Or, did god know Satan would skew someone's choice so there wasn't any choice after all? What I'm getting at is what is "his will" that you're mentioning because you've been flopping back and forth like a trout of out water.

Originally Posted by DemolitionLover

Historical evidence points that he did exist, Biblical evidence points that he was the son of God.

You mean circular evidence, where the bible verifies what the bible says? Bingo, great mentioning of such evidence.

Originally Posted by DemolitionLover

So regardless of whether or not you believe in the Bible, if you agree with Roman texts (which tell us of every other historical figure we know about in that time period, like Julius Ceaser) then you have to agree that the man existed. Regardless of whether you believe in the Bible or not.

So if your mention of circular evidence in the Bible is irrelevant, why did you bring it up? Are you even remotely aware Julius Caesar was a real person, verified by statues, historical political reigns, etc..., while Christ hasn't been seen to any reliable and valid measures? Essentially, for one there is a timeline of his family, political roles, statues and paintings portraying him, and even wrote first-hand accounts of Gallic Wars, whereas the other is mentioned in historical accounts mixed with fictitious events.

Essentially it comes down to real person versus made-up person and you're trying to say if we agree the real person is real, then the made-up person is also real. It's not making much sense at all, might as well say Fei Lian also exists for the same reason.

[Peppermint Tea.♥]

Historical evidence he was alive, Biblical evidence he was God's son. So whether or not you believe in Christianity, we know that there is evidence for him being a real person. I'm not sure what you mean by circular evidence, since by 'Historical evidence' I do not mean the Bible.

[Eldora]

They had no knowledge of wrong or right before they ate from the tree - therefore they did not know if it was wrong or not to eat from it, just that God had told them not to - they didn't know whether or not it was wrong to disobey him. He gave them "choice" but in a sadistic way with only one eventual conclusion that they would, in the end, eat from the tree due to their lack of knowledge and be punished for it. It's like leaving a monkey with a box in a white padded room, then punishing him for opening it.

I'm gonna second this. If Adam and Eve were so unknowledgeable in the Garden of Eden that they could not know right from wrong, then how would they know whether or not God or Satan was in the right? You're going to tell me that 'God wanted them to eat it'.

A child, given a piece of candy and told to walk around in his pocket with it all day, regardless of who told him to eat it, will inevitably eat it. Now, even if the person who gave him this candy had planned all along for him to eat it, what sense would it make for him to punish the kid for eating it, and kick him out of your house and never let him back in just because he did something you wanted him to do that you didn't want him to do?

Added onto this, if Satan was just doing what God wanted him to do, then wouldn't he be a good guy? If you moved a chess piece across a board with your mind, then burned it because it listened to you, would that make sense? No, it wouldn't make sense at all. If God created everyone to be either good or evil, then even the evil people in this world would have been working under God's orders. God would have wanted Adolf Hitler to slaughter the Jews. Thus, he'd have all the blood on his hands from every Hitler-like man in the history of this world. Everything would be his fault.

Would you really want to worship a man guilty of such massacres of innocent people, some his own worshippers? You'd be like nothing but an ant on the face of the earth. No, scratch that, you are nothing to God but an ant on the face of the earth, because even if you are his beloved, he's killed many of you, a thousand times over. He flooded the world and drowned all of his people but for Noah, then felt guilty for it afterward. That's what insane people do: They kill, then fell guilty for it. He kills continuously, his people cause more grief in this world than the Bible's so-called 'evil' ever has.

And yet you still worship him. Which makes you just as insane as he is. No, actually, it just makes you insane, because I don't believe in your Bible. Trying to talk to a Christian is like trying to talk to a brick wall and get it to talk back to you in a reasonable manner: Absolutely frustrating.

And I'm sorry to any good, nice Christian who's not going to try to shove their religion down my throat because I wrote this, because folks like you -- who don't try to convert everyone they come across -- are the true good people, the true followers of Jesus Christ, who is admittedly one of the best, most understanding men ever to walk this planet, and you're pretty darn good people.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by Eldora

I'm gonna second this. If Adam and Eve were so unknowledgeable in the Garden of Eden that they could not know right from wrong, then how would they know whether or not God or Satan was in the right? You're going to tell me that 'God wanted them to eat it'.

A child, given a piece of candy and told to walk around in his pocket with it all day, regardless of who told him to eat it, will inevitably eat it. Now, even if the person who gave him this candy had planned all along for him to eat it, what sense would it make for him to punish the kid for eating it, and kick him out of your house and never let him back in just because he did something you wanted him to do that you didn't want him to do?

Added onto this, if Satan was just doing what God wanted him to do, then wouldn't he be a good guy? If you moved a chess piece across a board with your mind, then burned it because it listened to you, would that make sense? No, it wouldn't make sense at all. If God created everyone to be either good or evil, then even the evil people in this world would have been working under God's orders. God would have wanted Adolf Hitler to slaughter the Jews. Thus, he'd have all the blood on his hands from every Hitler-like man in the history of this world. Everything would be his fault.

Would you really want to worship a man guilty of such massacres of innocent people, some his own worshippers? You'd be like nothing but an ant on the face of the earth. No, scratch that, you are nothing to God but an ant on the face of the earth, because even if you are his beloved, he's killed many of you, a thousand times over. He flooded the world and drowned all of his people but for Noah, then felt guilty for it afterward. That's what insane people do: They kill, then fell guilty for it. He kills continuously, his people cause more grief in this world than the Bible's so-called 'evil' ever has.

And yet you still worship him. Which makes you just as insane as he is. No, actually, it just makes you insane, because I don't believe in your Bible. Trying to talk to a Christian is like trying to talk to a brick wall and get it to talk back to you in a reasonable manner: Absolutely frustrating.

And I'm sorry to any good, nice Christian who's not going to try to shove their religion down my throat because I wrote this, because folks like you -- who don't try to convert everyone they come across -- are the true good people, the true followers of Jesus Christ, who is admittedly one of the best, most understanding men ever to walk this planet, and you're pretty darn good people.

Man, you need to post here more often.

[Eldora]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Man, you need to post here more often.

Just wait for Mr. John 6:29's reply, and I will...

[Digilodger]

Originally Posted by Eldora

Just wait for Mr. John 6:29's reply, and I will...

Poor Mr. John 6:29, he has to go against 4 people all by himself--MonsterCosmonaut, Xujhan, The Man And XX Master, and now you, Eldora.

Makes me want to the join the battle as well, and open a third view on the matter. It's getting harder and harder to hold back and just read the responses here

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by VoidZN

Poor Mr. John 6:29, he has to go against 4 people all by himself--MonsterCosmonaut, Xujhan, The Man And XX Master, and now you, Eldora.

Makes me want to the join the battle as well, and open a third view on the matter. It's getting harder and harder to hold back and just read the responses here

I do that, except I can NEVER resist, and then I go and voice my opinion and i get the whole thread baying for my blood LOL.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by DemolitionLover

Historical evidence he was alive, Biblical evidence he was God's son. So whether or not you believe in Christianity, we know that there is evidence for him being a real person. I'm not sure what you mean by circular evidence, since by 'Historical evidence' I do not mean the Bible.

I'm not sure what you're finding difficult to understand from my previous post.

You mean circular evidence, where the bible verifies what the bible says?

Notice from the bolded text, I'm referring to the biblical evidence, not historical evidence. I'm unsure how this is so difficult for you to understand. As I mentioned, the biblical evidence is circular so why do you mention it again?

What evidence makes him a real person? In the previous post you didn't explain it and again you're still not explaining it. Your only explanation was if I believe Julius Caesar was a real person, then I have to accept Christ was a real person. If you're going to present an argument, explain what you're saying and don't repeat the same vague sentence that wasn't understood before.

Originally Posted by VoidZN

Poor Mr. John 6:29, he has to go against 4 people all by himself--MonsterCosmonaut, Xujhan, The Man And XX Master, and now you, Eldora.

Makes me want to the join the battle as well, and open a third view on the matter. It's getting harder and harder to hold back and just read the responses here

I'm interested already because you have a third view on the matter. Mr. John 6:29 is at a numbers disadvantage but in the past, he's been able to keep going at it.

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

I do that, except I can NEVER resist, and then I go and voice my opinion and i get the whole thread baying for my blood LOL.

LOL, that's the good thing, if people are baying for your blood, then it makes the thread even more interesting.

[sassygurlone]

I think he realised that his arguement contridicted itself and gave up.

[Troubled_Heart]

people used to think i was crazy for thinking god isn't as nicer guy as satan so yes i agree, but then god gave us life and that gives him worthyness... i don't believe in the bible though i do in god, tbh i don't think we can really say because we don 't have all the facts, i think the arguments on both sides are stong and it depends on your thoughts of the world...

[Verità]

You know, I honestly never thought about it that way. I think it's a really interesting way to look at the whole thing.

[OMFG!You'reActuallySmart!]

Originally Posted by zapparappa

people used to think i was crazy for thinking god isn't as nicer guy as satan so yes i agree, but then god gave us life and that gives him worthyness... i don't believe in the bible though i do in god, tbh i don't think we can really say because we don 't have all the facts, i think the arguments on both sides are stong and it depends on your thoughts of the world...

I'm having trouble understanding what you're saying. Satan and god are in the bible yet you don't believe in the bible but believe and compliment the Christian god. How does that work or is it a different god?

We may not have all the answers however, that doesn't mean we cant pass our views because such discussions help in obtaining further information and knowledge.

[JKmadu619]

Logic=Flawed. God did not put the tree there to make them sin, but to give them free choice. They took their choice and therefore Adam and Eve allowed the devil to fester.

Also I am Christain and you should be lucky I do not burn you at stake for the Witchcraft you have just put upon me.

- Justin

The second part was a joke, obviously.

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by JKmadu619

Logic=Flawed. God did not put the tree there to make them sin, but to give them free choice. They took their choice and therefore Adam and Eve allowed the devil to fester.

I've already explained about 5 times that there really was no choice about it. They had no knowledge before they ate from the tree, they were most likely mere vegetables wandering around, drooling and wondering why the grass was so green. God told them not to eat from ONE specific tree, they would eventually do it - they didn't know wrong from right, they probably didn't understand anything - they had no knowledge.

[LaurenIsAwesome]

Oh my, you are right :O
Never noticed Satan isn't as nasty as people say he is (I am an atheist btw but I believe in God).

[Cosmo]

Originally Posted by LaurenIsAwesome

Oh my, you are right :O
Never noticed Satan isn't as nasty as people say he is (I am an atheist btw but I believe in God).

Do you mean you don't follow a religion but believe there's some kind of God?

[LaurenIsAwesome]

Originally Posted by MonsterCosmonaut

Do you mean you don't follow a religion but believe there's some kind of God?

Yes that is what I mean.

[John 6:29]

Originally Posted by The Man And XX Master

I
You're not making it an argument, you're making it a soap opera. He's calling it an argument because you're disagreeing with what he has said, provided a rationale supporting it and some biblical evidence to support it. What is this whining about, you didn't ask him for his opinion yet he gave it anyway? I'm doing the same but this is all because it's a public forum we are all members of. If you want, tell me now so in the future, I'll ask you for your permission if I can give my opinion on something. Continue with the soap opera.

An argument is an attempt to sway others to your opinion, which I'm not. I'm simply expressing a disagreement, which could be seen as an argument, but it's not. I've found arguing quite useless anymore. Furthermore, the OP did as for opinions, so I gave mine, so you're in fact wrong. If that was in reference to fletcher, quoting me is expecting a response, so it is implying he wishes for my opinion or a response -- else-wise he wouldn't quote me.

I don't mind the majority of people being against me due to my beliefs, but when we're debating scripture and your logic completely contradicts scriptures, then your argument doesn't hold up. It's like debating about elves. You can have your logic and say whatever you want about elves, but if you're debating about elves in a particular book, it's useless to provide an opinion contrary to that book, or to support your opinion from another book.

The logic that Satan is better than God is rather laughable to me. If Satan's so-called "good," then his "good" is automatically distributed back to God because God created Satan for that purpose.

Nick, to show you why I find this argument ridiculous, is I recall probably about a year ago, you were debating with someone about how it is illogical to say that Satan created evil. That is, that Satan created something God did not. In the same sense, Satan can create or allow good if God did not create it, cause it, allow it, etc.

At any rate, I didn't intend to respond to this thread yet again, because I find at any point in which a Christian tries to show the atheist their err in their logic, is quite useless. Even if the Christian would agree with the atheist on a certain point, which ironically, I agree with your previous position on Satan, God, and evil, so I'm surprised you cannot connect it vice-versa through Satan doing apparent "good." However, I came to this thread to check something, and I came across your post so I figured I'd show you my reasoning. But go on, bash away about my soap opera, while I sit here realizing the willing ignorance on this thread of people who would support the former position of evil without a doubt. Yet now because we reverse evil with good, they willingly choose to completely ignore the logic that they are using and come to a conclusion that is completely redundant, illogical, unscriptural (which is what this thread is about -- scripture) and to be honest, just plain ignorant. Religious beliefs aside. And to be quite frank, I'm quite surprised you and fletcher have fallen into the same pit of logic, despite our differences. I'd at least expect the two of you to be above it and see the foolishness of the conclusion. I'm not saying this to sound above you, or anyone here, I'm simply stating my observation. It's literally as if just because it's opposed to a God, people jump on the bandwagon to ignore their logic that they've previously used, and ignore any manner of common sense. It's more of a disappointment to see you agree with them, as I find you and fletcher probably the most intelligent people on these forums. So, I'm rather baffled at the two of your conclusions. Even just using the scriptural support provided, it's still an illogical conclusion.

[BDF]

This thread has turned nuts.